HI #60: The Beautiful Game 

"Just give me the f***ing hotstoppers" is one of the single best lines in all the podcasts.

Will this be the most disappointing election in 2016? Oh how little you knew, Grey...

With all Grey's gripes with the places he gets coffee, it's a wonder he hasn't just gotten a machine for himself and a large tumbler. No human germs, no arguments over hot stoppers, tumbler keeps everything sealed and hot, more economical and less trash created. Mostly, no dealing with idiots who want to question your need for hot stoppers.

Nothing like a good ole' podcast to listen to while I fall asleep. I know I can't possibly regret a decision like that.

Damn you guys have some great podcast voices :D

The month of games sounds great. Something like this should be mandatory when you hit 18.

1:05:13, NZ flag was supposed to be the "most disappointing election in 2016". Now Brexit happened, I wonder what Grey thinks about that and how the US presidential election is going to pan out...

I want to hear Grey read audiobooks, now... You have the perfect voice for William Gibson's work.

That flag was not the most disappointing election in 2016.

A podcast that airs on youtube the same time as other places? Have you finally caught up? :D The choice to listen on my phone, or watch the video, is hard... Watching the video is such a timewaste, but it is so mesmerizing x)

"all i want is for everything in the world to go the way i want it too" :D

holy crap. so soon after the last one! I wish you guys would always keep this pace

I checked out Cortex, Grey's other podcast. I only listened to two so far. The dynamic between Grey and Myke is different. Hello Internet has more Bromance cos Brady likes to tease Grey and push his buttons a little.

iPhone talk is 43:06 - 55:29

Really fond of the idea of "sleeping = consciousness death" You absorb tons of information, melting in your consciousness; However, you need your sleep to re-format/organize your consciousness. You automatically delete information you dont care, memory that are redundant back in your head; in return, your head prioritize what's important in sort of organized way. You know, surviving. So, you may suffer the consequences of people asked you what you eat yesterday & you may say "i dont know, its not important." And People will accuse you did eat their pie & your mind really doesn't care anyway. :D False innocent feeling. You are not the You steal the pie, because you dump that memory last night.

Let's make a little robot in a cage desk toy and give it to Grey. It would say 3 things completely randomly every few minutes. "Help, help, let me out!" "Oh come on, I wouldn't lock you in a cage." "Hmm, what if I said I'd be nice?"

31:37 I see what you mean Grey, but the temperature of the drink takes care of germs

1:05:08 Sadly Grey, you got this really, really wrong.

certainly that when you sleep a little bit of you "dies". every day of every second cells are replaced and memories are dumped this isn't to say that you're an entirely new person when you wake. you're just a little different. you still have nearly ALL of your cells still with you, but only nearly? your bones replace themselves entirely every ten years, but slowly over a period of time. i think transporters would essentially... ""kill"" you, if only temporarily. but you would still be YOU if the transporter transports your exact atoms. if you take apart a rubik's cube, and then take all those bits across the room one cube at a time, and put it back together, it is still the same rubik's cube. definitely still you. now, if you take apart a rubik's cube, scan it, and then print it through a 3d printer, then it is not the same cube. it's another rubik's cube. idfk wtf im talking about

1:05:13 Not even close, Grey. Not even close.

I'm watching all these Go games... but I have no idea which color won at the end.

The reason that teleporters are different from going to sleep as far as keeping our consciousness is that when someone goes to sleep, their particles have continuity and continue to exist in spacetime according to the non-quantum laws of the universe. When someone uses a teleporter, his or her matter is arguably destroyed and recreated in a new spot. For all we know, the consciousness of the particles that were once you are now scattered into oblivion and the universe has compensated through entanglement to create an exact copy on the other end.

It would be wonderful to hear the conversation of you two as you play Go in real time. I just... that would be incredibly interesting to watch AND listen to.

Great video guys! Forgot what even linked me here anymore, but all the topics were very interesting and listening to you two talk was just wonderful. I don't know if I can say you guys foil each other well but the ideas expressed was very enlightening especially at the end with machines, AI, and to what end it will all manifest. I'll be back for more hopefully after I somehow manage to find enough time to listen to the other 59 podcasts

This one is going to make the best "HI Animated" yet!

Oh hey, this edition managed to get the Forbidden Kingdom page semi-protected.

But the brain continues to process while it's asleep. And sleep isn't one continuous state there are multiple stages of sleep. Stuff you need to do to fix this question: -define death -observe the brain transitioning from awake to sleep -observe the brain's regular function -understand the brain -possibly define the idea of self? Extra: The brain is not a black box, it has systems that can be observed. Extra+: I often think of this problem in terms of computers. A computer has three parts necessary to the allegory. A hard drive, which stores data when the computer is off. The RAM, which stores data, but forgets it when the computer is hut off. Finally, CPU processes the data by using logic gates in a pre-arranged fashion to transform the data. I think human brains are like the RAM because they cannot hold data if turned off (dead) and a traditional hard drive is like a person wrote down all their knowledge before they died. So your definition of death is what decides if you die or not.

Great podcast - as a note though, the Wikipedia article for Forbidden Kingdom has now been protected due to so many people (of which I shall proudly proclaim I was the first) editing it to fit Grey's description in the episode. Bhutan is (as of my writing this) no longer listed, where it was before.

Being asleep inst the same as being unconscious, If a fire alarm goes off while I'm asleep I will wake up, so I must have some conscious knowledge of the world around me.

As a New Zealander I can tell you CGP Grey that we have flag talks ever 3-5 years. By not voting for that terrible flag we have let the door open for better change in the future. If we had voted for change we would have been stuck with that overly cluttered silly black cornered flag for good.

It's entirely possible to not know what you think about something. In fact, most philosophers agree on this: a lot of the time it's difficult to have a definitive position because there isn't enough information to go on, or your conclusion is highly dependent on very strict definitions which not everyone may agree on. For what it's worth, I'd answer Brady's Y/N question by saying no, I don't believe that I die every time I go to sleep. But I'd clarify that I don't even believe in the 'self' in the traditional sense. Instead, I side with Derek Parfit: our entire notion of the self is an illusion, it's basically the UI of our brain. Yes, there are causal links between past me, present me and future me, but there are causal links between all particles that have, directly or indirectly, interacted with each other. What we decide to term our self is arbitrary and relative to each person's perspective. Also, our language (or at least, English) doesn't seem to have the right words to properly describe what I mean so I apologize if what I've said is unclear.

Its at 29:45 everyone

I play go and those few cycling games of go that you have going on this video are the most hauntingly frustrating things I have ever seen. I cant look away but it must be bots because I cant imagine anyone but the newest and worst players playing those games but they still know a few sequences that new players wouldnt know. it pains me.

The issue with sleep death is that consciously you were both yous at one point in time. When you awake you cannot be a new consciousness with old memories because you were the previous iteration as well. You made and shaped those memories that the “new” you remembers, so it must be that consciousness is continuous. The transporter scenario is not analogous because there is no eternal darkness for your consciousness to experience. If I, as in my current stream of consciousness were to die when I sleep, then it would hold that this consciousness would experience death as opposed to a new day. You can’t be and experience life as the original and the copy, so it holds that you are the original.

The Paro landing link takes you to Brady at the Taj Mahal with like a million other people :(

The first part of this podcast reminded me of a great book I read. Ray Bradbury "The Illustrated Man" the chapter ""No Particular Night or Morning". This chapter is a story of man questioning what reality is. If you haven't read this already Grey and Brady, you should.

I love the Go games as the video!

29:00 is the angriest I have ever heard Grey.

You two wondering about the nature of consciousness should read "Godel, Escher, Bach". Would make for great discussions too

The "Paro Landing" photo in the show notes is the taj mahal

I agree with CGP Grey, sometimes you don't know what you think. The mark of an educated mind is the ability to entertain two conflicting possibilities without accepting either one.

I tell you, I want to go to Bhutan more than most every country on the planet. It looks so cool.

29:25 Serious Grey

I don't think we die whenever we go to sleep, but there is a line between when you can be resuscitated and when you can't. That is the only line of death there is.

So, heres a relatively simple problem to ask grey about, what is his opinion on this idea that the universe is an infinite set of nows, when we know that space, velocity, and gravity, all have SOME effect on time? what is his perception on this issue. I find it odd to think about, because does he believe that the universe is an infinite set of nows... inside of another set, going in every single direction? does he believe that now, if he was sitting next to an area that had a slightly larger gravity, that that place is completely detached from his reality, or does it also have its own set of nows? or furthermore, does that object or area experience the same now, but with its own separate perception of the other nows around it? or is time truly constant, and without gaps? only slowed and sped up?

Grey went all Liam Neeson on those hotstoppers.

computers being able to teach themselves is an incredible yet terrifying thing and i would say that until we can give computers some sort of code that they cannot break we cant allow a conscious ai to be connected to the internet because its entirely possible to expect that to go badly

Grey justifies his irrational fears of death by saying it is possible to die at any moment.

Didn't know the Paro landing strip went right through the Taj Mahal...

To be honest, I'm surprised that Gray isn't an android guy.

Hot stoppers, If your willing to change places why not go to a place with better lids so you don't need the hot stopper?

woke up late at night, glanced through the HI podcasts, picked this. now .... i'm doomed

I think I've just been sold on Pattern Recognition. Also, Grey, you ought to consider doing Audio books. You've got the voice for it.

Just for the first part, I'm fairly sure you're still conscious when you're asleep, you wouldn't call it a "break" in consciousness. Aneasthetic induced unconsciousness though, maaaaaaybe.

dude. The HOT latte will kill any germs on the hot-stopper!

Also, I'm with you Grey ! The dying at sleep question is not ridiculous!

Aww yis, my favourite podcast delivered though my primary media platform, no longer loading up rubbish media players for me, no sir

A fantastic listen to fall asleep/die to...

Best. Podcast. Ever! Love this show!

the first part is so easy. you don't die every time you go to sleep. I have lived through thousands of "going to sleep"s. the transporter is different, because it'd have to rip you apart first. Sleep doesn't physically rip you apart, atom by atom

Why do you not save your hotstoppers?

I'm in camp Brady on the whole consciousness issue. If I die every night, if the world started last Tuesday, if I'm a brain in a vat... I don't really care. It's not any scarier than the reality that we one day die and the world continues to go on as if we didn't exist....

For once I actually agree with Brady on a Hello Internet debate (with the consciousness death thing)

Consciousness I think is when you are capable of deciding your own ambitions based on self and environmental awareness. The smartest computers we have ever made have not had ambition, they have set their own tasks, but only according to the aims we have given them.

Having an exact replica of you like if you get replicated in a freak transporter accident wouldn't necessarily mean anything about you're continued consciousness because when identical twins happen, they're originally an exact replica of each other but are still their own people from then on. More interesting to me is that I think we will get to the point where we can upload people to machines in the next few hundred years and then we could basically just copy/paste you into various androids. We can already "clone" much of your consciousness just by copying all the data on your electronic devices. In a lot of ways your phone probably knows more about you than you do. It remembers where you go, who you talk to, what you've done recently, what you've been interested in, what you've seen--all in far greater detail than you do. If you were to record yourself on camera for an entire day and then try to remember as much of that day as possible, your memory would have massive and often shocking gaps compared to the recording. If you haven't seen the Selective Attention Test, go watch that video to see what I'm talking about. It's on youtube by RU-vidr Daniel Simons dated Mar 10, 2010. It's not just experimentally proven, the same effect shows up in court cases all the time. When we can just copy/paste your brain onto a new machine, what will that mean for your relationships? What will it mean for your finances? What will it mean for your career? If one copy of you declares bankruptcy or gets a divorce is that also binding on the rest of the copies of you? I think the best use of that tech would be putting android you on a sleeper ship to go colonize new planets. It would let you go into deep space far from the rest of your copies and would let us put robot bodies capable of human decision making on other planets. Plus you wouldn't have the problem that generational ships will definitely have where people feel like "just because grandma wanted to go to Proxima Centauri doesn't mean I want to."

Re-use the ****ing hot stoppers.

I am sure this isn't a new comment/question but why not use the coffee stickers to cover the opening instead of the plastic germ stick?

I love listening to these guys talk philosophy. I just wish they would call it that when they are.

yey :) more cgp grey to distract me from my failing physics degree, this counts as revision right?

I listened to this while playing World of Warcraft

The description should have included " An angry caveman ambushes an humane android In the arena of arguments"

so much content recently! i love it.

mad Grey is best Grey. "give me the fcking hot stoppers" lol

Re-listening to this episode after the iPhone 12 was released is amusing.

I also want to follow up. I believe that Grey's conclusion that we may die every time we sleep may be logical based off of his previous teleporter argument, however, in my mind, the possibility it *is* true does not bother me. Because, if we do truly die every time, then I am not the original. My existence was only facilitated by the passing of another, so in a sense it is my duty to pass the responsibility to another. Furthermore, you have an uncertainty of demise through unconsciousness (i.e. no way to know for sure) _vs_ the certainty that you *will* die if you do not rest. Maybe we're all just lie Mr. Meeseeks from Rick and Morty, only tolerable to existence for a short time. Perhaps that is what the sensation of drowsiness and fatigue is, a calling back to the safety of nonexistence.

When will HI start selling branded hotstoppers? I don't drink hot beverages, but I find I want one with the HI logo on it.

I have never had Starbucks and have never even seen store. Starbucks is not very big in Australia i looked it up and there are like 25 in ALL of Australia.

I feel like a major property of consciousness is just communicating with yourself. You could well imagine a program generating sentences, although it would be harder to imagine a program generating sentences that make sense, and then sentences that actually talk coherently about processing information it gets or "sees". From that step it's only a small step to imagining that when this program is smart and complex enough that it could talk about information about itself, basically seeing itself in the mirror. I would be curious how intelligence in animals that showing desires and instincts relates to communicating with others of it's species or the world. It's easy to imagine that apes that developed more and more complex social interactions formed an internal model for other apes and in the same vein for itself. So I think ultimately I think it only requires a "stream of thoughts" or communication with itself and high enough reasoning / intelligence. Interestingly in my youth I've often felt like NOT being conscious or kind of "being on rails" and not reflecting on any on my actions and words until I am at home and calming down.

19:28 wow

My father got rid of his SE last year

what was the stuff in the background? was it those Go matches with the Google AI thingy?

I feel like computers are attempting to emulate the human brain, and might eventually be able to do a job at it, but that's like making a nice, perspective drawing on paper: it looks 3D, we are tricked to thinking it's 3D, but it's not actually 3 dimensional. The human brain is just a different sort of machine from digital computers so comparing the 2 is like apples and oranges.

Be honest with me Brady, did you just get two bots to play go together? The games look so not human

The Apple watch is great and all, but it's like buying the same thing over and over again. Most people arent gonna spend more money on something they already have, their phone, and if they are, theyre gonna buy a new phone. If I'm gonna buy a watch Im gonna buy a really nice looking analog watch. On the list it would be something like Iphone, Ipad or tablet, iphone watch. But that's about it. Plus it looks weird, most people would rather have a classy watch, or an aviators watch.

I usually never bother to comment but I feel compelled to since Grey said something that seemed backwards to me. Around 1:15 when Grey is talking about Alphago he descibes Alphago's playstyle as being more inhuman compared to chess engines but I have always heard that chess engines seem more inhuman due to there use of brute force. Deepmind recently made a chess program using deep learning and it only process 80,000 positions per second compared to 70 million by traditional chess engines but it compensates for that deficit by using a selective pruning of decision trees which gives its moves a more human like feel.

An hour talking about hot stoppers? Hahaha I can't believe I listened to this! :D Seriously just buy a bag of these things somewhere. Also if you want to get back into gaming, try VR. Proper VR with the Vive and tracked controllers. Gaming is even a good way to stay fit now!

have you guys thought of bringing the podcast to soundcloud

Sorry to Brady for the problems faced in India

I now want to go to Bouthan

i was looking at the australian and new zealand flag right next to each other and i can genuinely say i didnt realise they were 2 different flag until i noticed the extra star on the australian one that is dumb im amazed they didnt just want to change it anyway

i thought they gonna talk about football... lol

Have either of you two been to Greggs? Did you like it if so?

This is the best video yet!

Finally caught up with the podcast... now what?

Don't put your hands on the escalator rails Grey, or anyone for that matter. While visiting China I saw a father put his son on the rail handle. Mind you some of the clothes worn in China are much different than ours. In this case the boy had no underwear on. So essentially a young bare bottom 5 year old had "all of it" on the rails. Beware people beware.

in the library during lunch... hope no one notices

so have either of you ever heard of Occam's razor

Hello, there I'm Zach. So, I thought about the dying sleep thing for a while and I realized there's a simple way to disprove it but it's not a super glamorous solution. See, you personally can disprove this concept since you go to sleep, you wake up the next day and you personally remember the previous day and thus didn't die. This doesn't prove it for other people though. You can say oh, that person who just woke up is a different consciousness than the one yesterday, which is a fair argument but you personally know that you haven't died overnight. It's more of a personal discovery thing than anything else to disprove this idea of dying everytime you go to sleep. And also saying that other people which you can't prove anything about, are now different people since they "died" overnight is like saying everyone else other than you is controlled by the matrix and you can't disprove it which is technically true but there are obvious social constructs we follow to be sane people. Using the postulate, I think, therefore I am, really helps clarify my argument as technically you can hope to trust your own perceptions above all else and everything else around you may be a lie but we can at least trust our own perceptions as the rule and by remembering we existed 2 days in a row personally we know we don't die when we sleep. TLDR: By living two days in a row we personally know we didn't die when we went to sleep so saying that all our memories before were memories of the previous clones is false you proved to yourself you didn't die by living two days in a row. (personally discovery)

What about dream and conciousness ?

the most human thing is to ask questions