I realize that this video is 1.5 years old and many of your target audience is younger and more constrained in terms of budget. I am 70, have been an audiophile for 55 years and have cycled through a ridiculous amount of gear. Interestingly, my current system follows your formula with $10k each for amp and speakers, and $2k each for turntable, streamer and DAC. My main source is Roon streaming through an innuos Zen MkIII, a Denafrips Pontus II DAC, into a Luxman L509x feeding Magico A3s. This is by a large margin the best sounding system I have ever owned, and superb in ways I never experienced before. My last system used a PrimaLuna EVO 400, Focal Kanta 2s, and a Chord TT2/MScaler combo, and while good, it allocated way too much for the digital source. Thanks for the masterful reviews and I hope your subscriber growth continues apace.
I've watched a handful of Tarun's videos and they were fine, but this one really stands out for me. I think this broad-subject video is the best overview of sources I've ever seen. Now I need to go watch the speaker and amplifier overviews. Thank you Tarun!
Thank you Andy. That is extremely kind of you to say. You may also want to take a look at my video on speaker setup if you haven’t already. It is an important aspect to get right and is part of a series. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-VHOYXjVJKKY.html
A turntable has been a constant since my first system in 1978. Garrards and Pro-jects have been my choice. I've always based my systems around the amplifier, as that's the heart of a system. The speakers are the soul of your bundles. Dacs are little contentious with me. Generally speaking, unless you're willing to spend fortunes, they are a much of a muchness. The major benefit of Dacs is the flexibility to connect multiple sources. I only use my Dac to connect the TV to the amp. My current system: Leema Pulse MK1 Dali Rubicon 2 Exposure CD 2010 Pro-ject Classic with a ClearAudio Concept MM cartridge Cambridge DacMagic 100 Cables are also contentious: Merlin Chopin I/C (Amp to CDP) Atlas Equator 2.0 speaker cables The rest are Chord Crimsons and an ancient set of Chord Chrysalis. You can see where I prioritise my components.
I love your videos, Tarun. I'm not an engineer but you've got a knack for explaining things in a way that won't be off-putting to technical folks, but is understandable to beginners. Well done. Cheers! Tom
Yep speakers first, since the speaker/room integration is key to a good sound and no changes to electrical components will help you if you have the wrong speaker in the wrong room
More than that, ported/sealed speakers have one category of sound vs those of us who love omnidirectional/open baffle/bipole/dipole speakers. And selection of speaker influences your amp choice.
Totally agree that turntable purchase is a long term relationship. I've had my Linn LP 12 and Ittok since 1987! But the sub chassis has been upgraded twice, the bearing twice, PSU upgraded and the Ittok has had new ceramic bearings and complete rewiring. The Linn is modular and therefore great as you can start at below £1000 and upgrade.
Excellent advice as always. When I got started 35+ years ago, I had a source (then a cassette deck), a receiver, and...very good (for the time). headphones. This allowed me to save up and get much better speakers than I would have been able to afford earlier, as they are certainly the most important component. Today, I would advise people to buy a better used turntable than you could afford new. There are a lot out there, and this would start you on the ladder a few steps up.
Really enjoying your insight and presentation style. As a young man I cut my teeth on Leak, Heybrook, Quad & Technics products, some 40 years on I have again become interested in Hi fi and your videos are helping me understand the current landscape. Ironically my first investment will probably be in hearing aids so I can again hear the nuances of specific products. Keep it coming !
Excellent. Back in September 2021... my audio technica table stopped working. In all honesty... I'm happy it did. Lol I swore never buy a plastic, low budget table again. I went shopping for a table that I'd hope would last 10+years. Went with technics 1200gr. I don't know enough about DACs to know how their technology will change. I thought yrs ago...there's no where else for phones to go lol. So, I'm hesitant to spend $2000+ on a dac. But, I probably will at some point.
Great advice thanks. I've been away from HiFi for years and went into AV at the budget end many years ago. Bored of my music sound through AV I bought a second hand Roksan K2 amp with a processor input for the pre out of the AV. Then my wharfedale 10.1 speakers were struggling with bass. So bought some wharfedale 230 floorstanders from a local friend. My old Arcam CD62 started playing up so changed to a Marantz CD6007 (first new component in years). Then I wanted to add a DAC and went with a Topping E30 (you should review this, for £110 its blown my mind). My Old REL Q150 sub via high level to the K2 has come alive, I dont hear it its just an extension of my floorstanders. The sound out of this rag tag collection is actually amazing especially with Hi Res on Qobuz using Bit Perfect via the Topping and the new CD player, I keep listening to favourite CDs hearing things I've never heard before. I cannot believe how far HiFi sound has come in 20 years or so. I keep looking at my speakers though, but when you integrate 5.1 keeping the surround signature linear is important, maybe the Wharfedale Evo 4.4s are next on my list. I will be having a demo on those though first.
Hello Tarun, I have watched this several times over the years and found the commentary on DACs very interesting, namely the rate of technology changing and the 80/20 rule. It would be interesting one day to see an update on this subject to see if you feel things ave evolved since. All the best, John
I bought a Project 6 turntable in '94 as part of a hi fi system that include an Audiolab 8000A and Hi Fi worlds KLS3. I still have the Project 6, I use it now with a Hegal Rost/Quad Z2 set up using a Goldring 1042 cartride and Rega PS. The marriage analogy is very true!
I paid £2250 for my EMT 950, about 10 years ago now. I would not be happy with a Rega Planar 10, never mind a 3. My vinyl deserves better than a boring belt drive turntable. I agree with you about spending a lot less on digital sources than other sources. I paid £20 for my Philips 1990's CD player. If I wanted a DAC I wouldn't spend more than £100 on one. A Topping DAC would do for me.
I was hoping you would go full Swiss Toni. "Buying a turntable is like making love to a beautfiul woman. You need to make sure she plays 12" but is happy with a 7", and maintains a consistent speed. You need to know if she's high maintenance, and if her belt is likely to loosen over time...". (love the channel, helped me with an MF A1 purchase!)
Greetings from Boston! Big fan of your videos! Bought Rega P3 + Ortofon 2M Black and Chord Mojo + iPhone 12 Pro Max + Amazon Music HD 24bit/192kHz as my analog and digital front ends and very very happy!
From my teaching and experience, concentrate your money, on parts that transform energy, mechanical to electrical and visa-versa (turntables and speakers). Changing energy will always be the weak link. While I have digital sources, analog provides the most satisfaction for me. One of the best ways to get best bang for the buck is stylus shape. For example, the ortofon 2m red is pretty cheap and the 2m black multiple times more in price with the same motor. While it may seem crazy to spend so much more for the same motor, the better stylus shape tracks the grooves so much better, the cost difference actually makes alot of sense. It can bring performance closer to the performance of a moving coil cartridge without having to spend more for the cartridge, preamp, etc. Can you get a moving coil for similar price of the 2M black? Yes but it will not have as good of a stylus shape or refined motor and you can't replace the stylus in a moving coil cartridge like you can on a moving magnet cartridge. Regarding digital, I have a computer that I have converted to a music server with a high end audio card. It allows you up-sample which tends to minimize pre-ringing, the most annoying part of digital sources. It can also play pretty much any digital format. While not as good as my friends lampizator dac, it is not embarrassing either. And as I said, analog is more important to me than digital. Your point about having a balanced system is key. Maximize musicality first. And that means to listen to what sounds most like music to your ears, no one elses. Good and accurate thoughts. Thank you.
Excellent trilogy Tarun, many thanks and I'm sure any newcomers to the Audiophile / HiFi world will greaty benefit from your 100% accurate 'Tips' trilogy. As I've mentioned before I'm a true vintage person and when I put my system together in the late 80's the rule of thumb I followed was ca. 40-50% of the total cost on speakers, 30-40% on amplification and the rest on source. It stood me well at that time although a couple of recent upgrades (like a second amplifier to Bi-Amp and the superb Rega P3 have upset the financial balance a little, but certainly not the audio balance.
Excellent and to the point. A google chromcast audio puck into a sml and a decent CD player or transport could be a good set up for my budget limit. But like you say that trickle down tech in a few years could be really interesting.
On my journey into digital a Chromecast Audio was my second step after Bluetooth from my phone. It was a revelation. However looking at even an inexpensive dac/streamer was leaps ahead of the the Chromecast. If I were you I'd check out something like the Raspberry Pi based Allo Digital Boss. You can even cast to it from your phone. For much less than £200 you will open the doors to a new world. When I first used that device I was using an old pair of Sony home theatre speakers and the improvement in imaging, separation and even bass response was very significant indeed. I now have a pair of active speakers that cost, new, well over £1000 and the Allo was a great match - to my ears and brain at least!
@@abritishaudiophile7314 I agree with 90% of what you said. The only thing is that a CD player really just isn’t a CD player based on what kind of DAC it has in it or it’s connections to an amplifier much like conventional blu ray or DVD players. My point is that high end CD players have a different information retrieval system. An example is Cyrus audio with its servos technology. What it does is that it gathers all the information off the cd right away without using any error correction system, which as we know any auto correct or error correction systems do cause sound anomalies and timing issues in your music. Mainly though, these high end CD players are more noticeable in a high end headphone system, not so much to the outward listener. I’m a headphone guy and it is mainly because I can achieve a very elite listening experience for a fraction of the price of what most loud speakers setups cost to do correctly with no shortcuts. Anyway. I love your channel and I think you are a very savvy listener. Appreciate you, brother. Thank you for listening. :)
Thank you Nephilim. Good points well made. The PS Audio transport stores the data in a buffer. This video is aimed at beginners. They shouldn’t be concerned with going out and getting fancy CD transports and just use their Blu-Ray player. It makes a decent transport. Thank you for watching and sharing 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 you are absolutely right. Taking of course the economical route for beginners the blu ray transport for outward listening is the best bet for the dollar. Anyhow, just a side note I wanted to tell you just how much I love the cyrus CD i complete with the PSXR-2 (unique intelligent power supply.) One of my most beloved audio pieces that compliment my headphone rig. :)
About DACs, I totally agree, I think a good reference is what manufacturers are implementing in their integrated amplifiers. Usually they put a lot more budget into their amps and in particular the preamplifier components to work around the inherent shortcomings of the chip. Why should you do it very different as a consumer? I also was really thinking about trying an R2R dac and felt that I needed to make a choice here between natural sound with distortion (and smoother more 3 d presentation) vs a more 2d presentation with more detail and resolution. My conclusion (as still a young audiophile finding my way) was the same. First it is just not worth the investment. Chip dacs will improve a lot over the next years, especially with this renewed interest in R2R, they will further up their game and AI seems to be also very promising in this respect. Second, with respect to R2R and their acclaimed more natural/analogue sound you could also easily solve that by adding a decent (tube) pre amplifier to make it sound smoother and more holographic and than you keep the resolution. This might be a little bit more expensive in the short term, I say little because R2R dacs are inherently more expensive than their chip counter parts, but in terms of longevity this is certainly the more economical choice. As you say it your equipment (amps and speakers/headphones) has a much bigger impact on the sound. In the end this whole DAC R2R vs Chip discussion is mainly fuelled by ChiFi companies sending there products to YT channels. They want you to keep on investing in their greatest and latest and I don’t blame them, they are making great products and dacs are cheaper than ever. But I also noticed that on forums and in comment sections the focus is a lot on the sound of these dacs standalone. They almost never talk about how they match with their equipment, in particular which preamplifier synergies they notice. I think the value of pre amplifiers in this respect is underestimated, especially in terms of longevity.
Thank you Gerard for watching and your insightful comments. This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for as it would help better inform newcomers in understanding choices. 😊👍
Hi Tarun, I totally agree with starting with the two turntable manufacturers you have mentioned for reasons you've said. We are living in very special times as far as cost affective hifi that is of high quality is concerned. DAC's are a good example with the Mojo and even the Qutest. I have the 2Qute and as old as it is, it is still an amazing DAC to start with and holds up well against affordable DAC's. There are a multitude of speakers under 2000 that are simply breathtaking at this price bracket from the likes of Klipch, Wharfedale, KEF, Dali, Focal etc and they are just a small selection of great manufacturers. Even though I have a CD player I totally agree with what you've said about that format, but I would still add a fine external DAC to tweak the sound to my liking. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Tarun and I'll look forward to your next video. Oh and well done for getting 18000 subscribers in 1 year. Brilliant effort.
Thank you Steve, much appreciated. Thank you for sharing your experiences and insights. It was exactly the kind of feedback I wanted from audiophiles to benefit newcomers. 😊👍
The information about the CD player just saved me a bund of money! I was seriously considering putting out for the Audiolab 6000 CDT. But if I can get away with a 100€ BluRay Player using the optical digital output into the Audiolab 6000a play - well, why not!
I always look forward to your well thought out and helpful videos on this hobby. Regarding turntables- over the years I’ve been through Older Thorens models (TD-145 & TD-160) and the Rega Planar 3. It’s tempting to purchase used models, however, the amount of knowledge and precision required to achieve a good set-up never allowed me to really hear the benefits of vinyl. It wasn’t until I purchased a new Fluance RT-84 with a cartridge already fit which required minimal adjustments that I achieved a satisfying result. Additionally, regarding streamers, replacing my Mac-mini running bit perfect with a lower cost dedicated streamer with a built-in DAC provided immediate improvements. It really surprised me that the dedicated circuitry of a streamer could result in much greater transparency streaming Tidal. Cheers!
Fantastic advice. At present I have: Naim Uniti Atom and Focal Aria 926 speakers. I like the convenience of the streaming but miss my CD's but more importantly to me the Romance and different sound of Records. To expand my system I have just ordered an Audio Lab 6000CDT. Once I can audition a Turntable I will be looking at the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO with the Project Phono Box DS2 (Returning back to Vinyl after 20+ years). Thank you for enlightening us with your knowledge and experience.
Wonderful recommendation on said Rega P3 ( it’s the one in which I’ve mentioned to friends as the best place to start......, and stop in some cases ) DAC which those made by Pro-Ject | Aune are highly recommended | I tend to lead others towards using Mac Mini’s or a Bluesound Node 2i used as music server type of devices, as investing $2.600 on a dedicated server like an Aurender or Lumin, in some homes isn’t likely to be a reality. Good one as always......, keep them coming.
I think for me, the real question is how much are you prepared to lend me Tarun? Okay, joking apart.... I think each part of the system is equally important. Unless one is really well off, then each time you upgrade one of the key components, you should buy the best you can afford - but don't fool yourself that the system will be instantly transformed by a wonderful new turntable or wonderful new speakers. I've noticed in recent years that there seems to be a shift back to speakers as the most important part of a good system. I agree with this - and with you Tarun. The best source and amp in the world aren't so hot if one doesn't have the right speakers for the room - and the acoustics, decoupling and placement sorted out.
Your comment about the acoustics is so on par. I don't know how many Guttenberg videos there are out there about not blaming the speakers until one troubleshoots placement and room acoustics!
Really well put together, comprehensive overview. I had approached my system in a similar manner, searching for a dac that was well reviewed but not overpriced. Had settled on an Airist R2r, which had a bit of controversy from what I found out later...measured poorly, but really love it. Made a big difference from the cheaper dac I was using. My system hovers in the 1k (retail US) zone, and am primarily digital.
Hi John, most R2R DACs don’t measure well due to producing higher levels of distortion. The reality is that the distortion is still most likely within acceptable limits. Once you get THD+N down to below 0.1% it gets pretty meaningless. The nature of the THD is more important. I bet your DAC has mostly 2nd order harmonic distortion and it is below the threshold where it matters. That is why it sounds so good. Thank you for watching and sharing 😊👍
@@abritishaudiophile7314 That’s what I remember reading relative to R2R’s, that those second order harms actually give it that pleasing distortion or “analog” nature. Same reason -in part -why the amps made by Nelson Pass sound so good. A down-the-road dream to get one of those as well! Thanks again 🙏🏼
The best advice I've heard regarding turntables is to "treat them as an instrument." Think of the analogy like this; If the turntable is an instrument, then a cartridge represents the "skill" of the musician playing that instrument. A master pianist may be capable of providing an incredible musical experience for you, but when you give them a $50 Casio keyboard to use then you're not going to hear their true potential. Likewise, any given cartridge deserves a table capable of showing off its capabilities. Take the LP60 and Planar 2 for example. Both use the same exact cartridge (despite Rega's claim otherwise...) but the Rega is able to extract every ounce of performance from that cart, resulting in a much more refined sound than the LP60. This is with a budget cart but this definitely holds true when considering more sophisticated cartridges. This is why I'm a firm believer in investing in the best _deck_ your budget allows, even if you have a less than stellar cartridge.
Turntables and arms, phono stages, cartridges etc and record collecting is a finicky part of the hobby AND a money pit no different than the DAC/streamer/server/switch morass, the difference being the digital tech is the direction the industry research $ is going and can only continue to improve as a result. Analog is stuck in the past, and though usually still sounds better dollar for dollar, this is quickly changing; as mentioned in the video, I2S as an input/output protocol will be an industry standard part of digital sources soon enough, and that will really improve the sound quality. BTW the one thing I have learned on my journey is to spend at least as much on my source as I do on my speakers and amp. Sorry Taran, I know this is not what you think, but then again there is no right and wrong, just opinions ;)
Great suggestions again, Tarun. I’d equate ROI of DACs to digital cameras, minus the lenses if it’s SLR of course. An entry level digital camera today will be much better than a camera 10 years ago. Unlike analog technology, digital technology will keep leaping forward every few years. Besides, the motherboards in DACs with custom circuits do age and break down. When they do, no HiFi repair shop will touch them. I know because my Wadia DAC from 2014 finally lost significant output volume in the RCA out and would cost too many man hours to troubleshoot. So I replaced it with a $350 Airist R2R DAC and it was a huge improvement in sound. I’m resisting the urge to audition more expensive current DACs because as you said, it quickly becomes a diminishing return. I feed the R2R DAC with a Music Fidelity CD transport and Wadia iPhone/iPad internal DAC by-passer. The converted analog signal is passed to a PrimaLuna tube amp then to the Proacs, with high quality cables in between. The resulting sound is good enough for another 5+ years at least, at which point I’ll replace the DAC with a newer budget DAC in a future generation. I still prefer Redbook over other digital sources, especially going through an AES/EBU connect.
Great video! Some mobiles phones have really good DACs as well and can play 24b FLACS without any issues in case you would like to connect them to an integrated amp.
Yes, like Mr Carrington below I'm old enough to have been thoroughly steeped in the "source first" way of thinking, and still regard it as sensible. However, that's not really the subject of this video. I'm happy to use digital but please don't ask me to get excited about it ... turntables however are a different matter. Your advice about upgrades seems spot on to me: my suggestion to a first time buyer would be to get a Rega or Moth with an RB250 on it, and tweak the living daylights out of the thing by increments until there's nothing original left except the bearing and the arm tube. That ought to keep you happily occupied for a long time - long enough to save up for an SME or something more exotic, because that's the sort of money it'll take to make the change worthwhile.
A great trilogy, thanks Tarun! As a budding audiophile, and a new hobby for me, I thought that I was gaining some audio knowledge, but some of the technical aspects in your vid left me scratching my head...Oh well, I guess Rome wasn't built in a day, as they say! Keep up the interesting videos👍
Great subject matter Tarun. Got back into audio a few years ago and decided to spend decent money on each component and hope that once and for all I don't need to upgrade....so far so good.
Another great video Tarun. It’s food for thought for me. I’m at the point of potentially upgrading CD, Amp and speakers in one go. I do stream, but CD is my preferred medium. Was looking at £1.4K cd, £2k amp and £4.5k speakers. Might have to rethink the CD now……
Thank you Neil. This video was intended for beginners with entry level systems. As the budget goes up the ratio can change based on the use case scenario. However, the overall objective is the same, to get everything in your system to the same level of performance 😊
I agree with Justin. Not all DACs are equal nor can age be the criteria. My oldest DAC is a DPA Bigger Bit. Allied to a TEAC/Esoteric transport of yesteryear-- they were sold under both brand names-it gives my system one higher end much more setup a run for the money or more correctly the sound. As usual it is the music that matters not the tech. Tarun, I enjoy your videos no matter the subject.
I'm a digital format kind of audiophile. My bottom line is if you are new in the hobby and want to have your first system and your budget is 100 spend 60 on the speakers 30 on the amps and 10 on dacs and cables. That is the way I spent my money when built my setup. My music library is composed of 6000 albums all flac format and hifi streaming so no need of cd transporter.
Very well done. I can agree with you on 95% of your comments. I don't find a cell phone to be any good as a streamer. The reason is poor sound quality even when not using the internal DAC. My recommendation is to re purpose an old laptop or get an inexpensive "fanless" PC. They can be had on Amazon for very little money. My reasoning is you get a far more robust and stable USB output, often time at USB 3.0 specs. I have not had any experience with a Raspberry π, so I can't comment. I also heartily recommend a bit perfect software player. I use Audirvana and love the results. It not only sounds better, but in consolidates my streaming service libraries into one user interface. I use Tidal and Qobuz. Audirvana does not currently work with Spotify or Amazon. These days I still listen to vinyl, but I find streaming to be convenient and the audio quality to be quite good to my old man ears. I very much enjoy and agree with your thoughts and attitude towards the hobby. Thank you.
Thank you Eholmwood. I use an old Toshiba Notebook running bit perfect software (J River) in my second system with great results feeding into an Audiolab DAC. Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences 😊👍
Great vid! Looks like ya hit another one outta the park. My main source is my turntable, and since I bought it about 10 - 12 or so yrs ago, I’ve slowly done a ton of mods and upgrades to it taking it to entirely new sonic levels. I somewhat recently bought a newer but very similar turntable, but actually kinda prefer my older one. Now that I’ve also upgraded the rest of my system over time, I’m finally pleased with my rig and lack my previous “upgraditis” at least for now, but I’m certainly not done with my HiFi journey as of yet. It’s too much fun. Thanks, Tarun!
Sorry, I meant to also mention the costs of certain parts of my system, since that’s what this vid is about. I spent aprox 1/3rd of the total cost of my system on my speakers, a bit more than 1/3rd on my amp and preamps, and a bit less than the other 3rd on my turntable, including upgrades, and misc things like cartridges, cables, etc. That certainly didn’t happen overnight either. I’ve also spent probably more than my entire system’s value on vinyl over the past 25-30 yrs. It seems like speakers have come a long way in getting the most bang for your buck over the past 10 yrs or so, and it’s luckily somewhat difficult to buy a truly awful pair of speakers. The same seems to be the case as far as DACs go, as you mentioned.
Hi Tarun very well explained indeed. In the case of DACS there seems to be a sea change with the coming of Chinese players like Aune,Toppings ,Denafrips in to the market.Just superb products they offer for much less money.
Good info mate , i just bought a cd player a denon dcd600ne 32 bit nice sound out of it for 250 quid , was using my dvd player for a while which sounded phenomenal compared to the old sony cd i had , got a pretty good amp and speakers built bespoke 100 watt and 50 watt a side speakers also built by the same man sounding very nice indeed :)
I think the source is the most part of a hifi system because once data is lost, it can never be recovered. Also, a source is probably doing the hardest job, creating the audio signal. I feel CD is here to stay for quite a while because lots of people have CD collections and having a pure copy of the source data is surely the optimal setup for sound quality. KISS philosophy. The industry naturally prefers and wants to encourage streaming because it saves them money and gives them more control of the data. Streaming has a few advantages, mainly convenience but quite a few drawbacks. I bought a Jay’s audio transport and DAC at nearly £6k cost and the amount of data I get off CDs is staggering. [Many reviews attest to their being one of the best CD transport and DAC combos for the money in the hi-end arena.] This has also improved with vibration damping tweaks. Those not wanting to spend that much might do well to follow Tarun’s advice and use a Blu-ray player as a transport along with a good modern DAC, as there are lots of good ones around these days. I have over 4000 CDs so can justify my exotic CD setup 😉
I bought and then quickly sold a 2k streamer dac box and replaced with a 200 pound dac and a 200 pound raspberry pie based streamer. The expensive box sounded great but I got 80 percent of the performance moving to the downgrade and now have flexibility around upgrading and don't have to worry about in several years time having sunk cost into something which may no longer be supported.
I use an Allo USBridge signature, which is raspberry pi based, and it sounds just as good as streamers costing 10x as much. Allo did an excellent job with isolating the pi from the audio board.
Well done again with your video.. But I would like to say that I'm a great believer in when someone wants to come into HiFi systems I would for sure put them on to the budget systems where they can g for everything in the second hand lines !! Except Stylus... this is the only new item you really need to use when starting from zero.. but each to their own.. but where money comes into it .. go for something second hand & enjoy even if you make mistakes .. because Vinyl records are unrepairable if you damage them.. so I hope this is just my way of budgeting HiFi.. Paul
Thank you Paul. Used is a good way to go for newcomers as long as they are buying from a reputable source with some kind of comeback if thing go awry. For those comfortable buying and selling 2nd hand, they can try a bunch of different stuff to gain experience without losing too much in the transaction and then final settle on what suits. 😊👍
Very good advice. I tested on same system, Linn akurate DS from 2011 (streamer/dac) vs Macbook pro+audirvana+RME adi dac 2 fs. Result was really almost the same. Noticed that if I use wifi for the mac, 5ghz is better than 2.4ghz. At this time I use an Auralic Aries G2 ( replace the mac and audirvana) feeding the RME dac. The result is same as a Naim Ndx2 and outperform The Linn akurate DS. ( System BW 804D3 + Cayin H80a). The RME dac is a real bargain at his price point. Noticed also that a Macbook gave better results vs PC.
Great video! Your knowledge of DACs is impressive (at least to me who knows little about them). I also think your advice on turntable selection is good. Both Rega and Project make good turntables for the money as far as I know from doing some research and listening tests a few years back. I think I would go for something like the Project Debut Canon as a minimum though or more expensive if you can afford it to avoid upgrading later. I believe you can hear the difference in sound quality as you go up in price (I settled on a Clearaudio Concept in the end and never looked back.
Hi Jim, you will definitely hear differences in sound quality as you go up in price on turntables in particular. People just need to start somewhere and the £250 region is a good place for newcomers. Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences. Your support is very much appreciated 😊👍
Great balanced perspective, as usual! I like that you make this accessible to people who don’t have (or don’t aspire) to a 15k system. I think your point of DACs is well taken - it’s a bit like buying a computer. You can use it for 5 or 10 years but by then it will be grossly outdated and outperformed. That begs the question then - do you buy a good integrated with an in-built DAC? Most manufacturers, even at the upper mid-level (Hegel, Lyngdorf, NAD Ms, etc.) build one-box solutions which have very good DA and AD conversion. Sources I believe will become obsolete even faster; the old Aurelic streamers are already obsolete and that will no doubt change most drastically. So what are we do about integrateds? I suppose buy the best you can afford, and aware that in a few years you might need a new DAC? I will say I love the NAD M10/M33 but with integrated transport they will look dated in a few years, and I know I’ll be rushing to a buy a better streamer/source.
Well said Alex. I would love to see streaming amplifiers over a certain price have a modular construction. The point where it is probably economically viable for manufacturers to do that is around £2K. A manufacturer could future proof their amps by providing plug and play modules as the technology advances 😊👍
For the newbies to turntables (TT) my practical advice before spending big $$$ is not necessarily buy the pricier TT’s but to consider investing less in the TT and more towards a good cartridge and a good phono stage. Just as round ballpark numbers, if your TT is $500 then consider spending about $300-500 for a cartridge and about $800 for a phono stage. Then you will have an excellent source that can scale to high end systems.
Another cracking episode, if I may wax à la Wallace and Gromit! Very careful but accessible explanations which put things in perspective, both technologically and economically. I will admit that after shopping a while for both DACs and streamers, there was a pretty strong consensus on forums that DACs had "settled" enough to spend big money (thousands) on them, especially compared to streamers. I was still skeptical. As you point out, if history is a guide, the common wisdom (among audio shopaholics, ahem) is probably false, and since DACs have to interact with other digital source inputs, it would make sense that they would be at least *comparably* unstable. In my system, I would estimate I hedged my bets by spending about 8% of my budget on the DAC and it does a very good job. The only other thing to mention about DACs might be that tube DACs can be had at reasonable prices, and this offers even the more modest system the chance to make some tonal adjustments to the overall sound without having to radically increase the costs elsewhere in the system.
Thank you DH. Excellent explanation and analysis. I am hopeful that DACs will at least sort out a standard I2S interface if nothing else in the next few years. I am not totally convinced about delta-sigma either. I hope some genius will find a better solution. Maybe I am being optimistic. Thank you for watching and sharing 😊👍
Congrats on your 18k subscribers, Tarun! I'm as nostalgic for cassette decks as anyone of my advancing years would be, but the revival's going to hit a brick wall when the newbies start adding up the cost of a few type II and IV cassettes...
Of all the various music mediums we now have, cassettes surely have the least shelf life. Having just played through about 200 cassettes rescued from a cupboard in my house, only about 60% played acceptably.
Enjoying your videos Tarun! Spending a lot of money on a turntable? I used to have the Revox direct drive turntable - now succeeded by a Pro-ject Classic with Ortofon MC cartridge. A good source component and I must have some 200 albums. Then the question: how often did I listen to it over the past couple of months? The digits on one hand suffice as I am happy with my discrete ladder DAC- Holo Audio Spring - attached to a MacMini, Roon software, connected to ATC pre amplifier and active 50s. You are right with the ‘diminishing returns’ and that your basis should be of a sufficient quality. I think my turntable meets the brief there and is enjoyable when called upon. Vinyl experience is just very different to digital.
Very interesting take on DAC's that makes a lot of sense. I also agree about turntables, they are mechanical items and you really do get what you pay for. I think you need to double your budget to get the sound quality you expect. I just sold a Thorens 309 Turntable that I just found very dissapointing despite trying different carts etc. Switched in an old Technics SL7 Linear tracker with super rare P205C MK3 cart leaves it for dead! Some of the vintage gear can sound amazing! I'm now saving up for a £2500-£3000 deck I think to be where I want to be :)
Enjoyable discussion on DACs. I went from a top end ASUS STX 2 internal sound card to a Gustard DAC-X20Pro to the Matrix Sabre Pro DAC and then the upgraded MQA version. Each time there were very audible improvements. A friend has a modified Lampizator R2r which we compared favourably with the Matrix Sabre Pro, the former being a little better. The MQA version is another step up so another comparison would be interesting. I use the Matrix Element H with an external 50W Ultra-low Noise Linear Power Supply to connect to the DAC via Matrix's own USB cable. One thing that I could speak about a lot is the impact that processing power (CPU) also has on the sound quality. I have not read about this anywhere but I can assure audiophiles that this is yet another variable to consider if using a computer as a source...and potential cost. I have noticed improvements every time I upgraded my CPU / RAM speed (and graphics card!) and recently changed from a 16 core to an 18 core (i9-7980XE S/H) and even I was surprised at the improvement even this made. I have progressed to using Adam Audio SV3s monitors and am very pleased with them. I have made one final improvement to my system and that is a linear power supply for the SH3 Superhub. BTW I listen / watch mainly You Tube sources these days and these improvements are still very discernible but I enjoy the music primarily but can still appreciate the effort that goes into productions (Charlie XCX / Sophie for example) from the aural evidence that a higher quality system provides.
Personally I would invest more in my record deck if that is going to be a medium that you are interested in. I have gone through many mid priced turntables over the years and if I had bought a Linn LP12 in the beginning I would have saved thousands of pounds.
Totally agree that getting the best turntable you can afford will be a wise longterm investment, the scource is fundamental in any hifi system, if you don't resolve information at the source it is gone forever, and expensive amps and speakers are pointless if you don't feed them a top quality signal. Ultimately if people are interested in a genuinely musical and longterm system, a visit to a dealer who is capable of understanding this and demonstrating the hierarchy of a hifi system i.e. source first is essential, otherwise a lot of money and time will be wasted buying and swapping components without any real understanding of what actually makes a musical difference. Every thing sounds different especially speakers, which in terms of system hierarchy are the least important part of any hifi system, that should be obvious to anyone who has had a competent demonstration of the fundamental importance of the source.
Thank you Tarun, well explained. Interested to hear your thoughts around streamers in detail - rPi hat based streamer against boutique streamers. Thank you again.
back in the day the "rubbish in rubbish out" philosophy was popular, meaning the largest slice of the budget went on turntable, arm and cartridge, leaving the rest of the budget on amp and speakers, the idea was that a poor source would still sound poor with quality amp and speakers and great quality front end would still sound great with cheaper amp and speakers. Many years ago a friend of mine got me round to hear his new speakers, Heybrook HB3's, he had connected them to his cheap music centre and they of course sounded terrible! the flaws of the music centre magnified.
One of the reasons I selected a Schiit Gungnier Multibit is that they designed several of their DACs for upgradability. If they make improvements, upgrades can be handled at home by the owner. It also sounds very good couple to an Audiolab 6000CDT.
I agree. Especially the 80/20 rule. I would not even have a turntable except that I possess several hundred LP's that I collected since the 60's. That is a lot of music, much of it out of print, to turn my back on. I began with an AT-120, which after 10 years I still find adequate. I have a few 78 rpm acetates that I personally cut (in my misspent youth), so the ability to play 78 rpm was important to me. Probably not you. That TT came with an AT97 cartridge, which I quickly replaced with a Denon high output MC elliptical diamond cartridge. That brings me to a point where my TT and cartridge are generally better than the LP's, so it is a stable setup. The HO/MC Denon will feed a MM photo input nicely. (The preamp inside the AT-120 is not a keeper - I switch it out. (I have found that cleaning an LP just before playing yields huge benefits in sound quality and noise reduction. *It took me way too many years to find that out.* ) For playing CD's, which I also have a couple of hundred, I use a retired Philips DVD player which has a S/PDIF output. That goes into a Schiit Modi 3, thence to a line level input. I'm only about a year into streaming. As to 'streamers,' my studies showed that many are insecure in ensuring the future of streaming services like Tidal, Qobuz, and Amazon HD Music. Also, i didn't like the idea of having to use a phone to select artists/albums/songs. I was concerned about long term support of most streamers' firmware. So, I decided to use an iPad outputting USB at 24/192k to the USB input on my Modi3. If the big 3 services, plus any new ones that crop up, don't support an iPad, I'll eat my hat. The iPad is dedicated to the music system; other computerish things are done on other devices. In almost all cases, I find these sources to be as good as the LP's, CD's, and streaming program material. *I'm much more likely to find flaws in recording quality and performances, than the sources, above.* YMMV. -Just one man's view of just this one man's solution.
Firstly let me say i do enjoy and value your videos ......so i find it very Interesting that you say don't buy a cd player ..ive been using a BR player to play cds until this year and have bought a 2nd hand standalone cd player (Musical Fidelity A5 CDP) without changing anything else pre/amp or speakers and the music i listen to is much better to my ears from the dedicated cd player than what i was using, to try and quantify the improvement i'd say much warmer/musical plus better attack & decay....
The BR player should only be used as a optical transport. It needs to be fed into an external DAC. That is why the A5 CDP sounds so much better. Good DAC and excellent analogue stage on that MF player. No wonder you are happy. 😉👍
I started off with a Rega Planar 3 with S-type Lustre variant tonearm & renown Rega R100 cartridge (made by Supex). Brand new in 1981 it cost a total price of £148! Even now a Planar 3 is most attractively priced at £100 less than a Linn Karousel bearing upgrade. I know enthusiasts who have owned several of these units & upgrade their sound by buying something like a 10X. They could definetely do much worse.
My 2 cents- Get a well regarded, used amp and a budget DAC fed from whatever streaming device you already own. Use these to audition speakers that you'd want to keep long term. Now you have something to compare to, spend the next few months/years swapping components in and out until you find what actually suits you. It'll give you the experience to make an informed decision.
On the DAC issue, I see this choice between Delta Sigma or R2R based DACs as an easy street decision. The Denafrips R2R DACs as a viable choice. The top Denafrips R2R DAC offers a board upgrade over the original already. With a DAC that has upgrade ability is a far better investment over the long haul, but opinions vary on this. The lowest priced DAC that Denafrips makes is still a better DAC than any Delta Sigma DAC. There are always lots of opinions about the comparisons of these two formats, but in any system that is a high resolution system needs to have the best front end that one can afford. Music is best served when it is translated by equipment that treats it best. A stereo system is an investment in both time and money and both are hard to come by in these trying days and times. You deserve to relax and or get rowdy with the best you can afford. It is worth spending the time and effort so you don’t suffer from regret of a severe nature. On the CD player issue, a transport of poor quality will degrade your experience as bad as a crap DAC would. A Blu Ray player is a better choice than most CD players. However, if you have a considerable sum invested in CD media, a dedicated CD transport is a worthwhile investment. The Project RS 2 T is just such a transport. It has I2S output as well as optical and coaxial outputs, has the best transport mechanism made which has been modified and extensively damped by the manufacturer. It isn’t particularly pretty by some accounts, but what it may lack in a pretty exterior, it more than makes up for in performance and that is what your ears and mind can perceive as having the most value. A Meridian CD player would be an alternative for a transport as their reputation for high quality of construction is well founded as is their performance. This may be an older player, but their construction is just that good! Just because a player is not new, does not mean it is not good. Highly skilled manufacturing quality is what makes a brand carry it’s reputation far in a hotly contested hobby that is overrun with products which have greatly diminished returns. In used gear, the product quality is highly important, so choice here is not to be taken lightly. All gear will fail eventually so it behooves each one not to scrimp on any product when making the choice. Preamps and amps which are not upgradeable or modifiable are to be avoided. I have an AGI 511A preamp that I have not modified yet. It is still better than but a few preamps on the market today. The key is research. Not everyone has a lot of money to spend on gear. The time spent researching your choices will either make or break your system, so don’t laz out by failing to do your due diligence and spend the time to make the best choice regardless what money you choose to spend. It matters because no one wants to make a poor choice. Thank you Tarun for this video. It was well worth the time and effort. How about those pieces I mentioned earlier in my comment? That Project transport and Denafrips DACs, do you have them on your back burner? Keep the good work up! Stay safe mates!😊👍🏻😷
Thanks Mark, the power supply upgrade on the Pro-Ject MaiA S2 hit a dead end as they have discontinued the linear power supply upgrade. I think it is only worth looking at the transport if I can get the matching DAC to take advantage of the I2S capability. I will speak to them, let’s see what they say. Thanks for sharing your advice 😊
@@abritishaudiophile7314, I suspect that they’re either having an issue with the upgraded product or can’t keep up with demand. This is quite common in new manufacturing, especially when the product is outstanding. Word gets around and demand becomes manic. It happened with the Heirloom turntable I assembled for George Merrill. It’s hard to be a one man band. Hope it all works out for you! I’ll be watching and I’m not alone! Stay safe mates!😊👍🏻😷
Hi Tarun, Really appreciate how you bring the science into your reviews and tips. Also hoping you can throw a few pointers in my general direction? Finally bought a flat just over a year ago, it’s lovely, but there is no choice as to which room is the lounge, or the augmentation of the room. I know how my hifi sounded before, and it became considerably worse on moving. The room structure is concrete with wooden flooring, and off centre along a width-wise wall is a sofa sized alcove which dictates the layout of the room. So about as bad as it can be. I can still accommodate the equilateral triangle, and have reached a point where I have a good soundstage, just the speakers come way into the room and the walls are alive with reflections. I position sofa cushions for evening listening, after finding that these on 1st reflections, were pretty much as good as my weekend at Wicks experimenting with a giant bag of rockwool. I thought all my prayers would be answered when I heard about the Dutch & Dutch 8C’s, and after some months managed to get hold of some. With their front wall bass coupling, cardioid dispersion, and stunning reviews, these should have been the solution to all my issues. They did sound incredibly clear, and oh so full range, but I didn’t like them one bit. So much so, that it was a joy to come back to my very humble system which I now understand to be rolled off on the highs…something it turns out I like. I would still like more full bodied bass though. System: PMC FB1 speakers tilted slightly and toed in a lot, 6mm OFO copper cables, TagMclaren 60i integrated, chord cables, Squeezebox touch, Raspberry Pi running LMS and a rug that fits inwards of the speaker positioning. After the D&D’s I figured I like my speakers, so went to my local PMC and Naim dealer with my whole system. Was surprised my speakers were better than the PMC 5 23’s they has set up. Found the Uniti Atom didn’t cut it. The Naim ND5 XS 2 streamer with my amp made a marked improvement. Then threw in the Supernait 3 for good measure, but found the improvement only incremental. Detail and authority were brought up in both cases, but the overall sound was still pretty much the same (no fuller bass). I’m now getting a home trial over the weekend, and will likely take the streamer. Wondering now if there are better 2nd hand options and noticed a Hagel H160 for £1400. To add the to the mix, I also have a very thick rug like yours ordered which I ordered in a very large size intending to place the speaker on top de-coupled. (This may well be a bad idea). Would love to hear your thoughts of upgrade routes that might deliver a fuller bass, whilst maintaining or bettering the brilliant soundstage I currently get (you have to listen past the reflective walls) Cheers, Richard
Hi Richard, sound like you have a tricky room. Speaker positioning is paramount. Good sound is 70% down to speaker positioning. The next 20% comes from treatment. This is not necessarily panels on the walls, although they can be beneficial. You can fill the room with enough soft furnishings to bring the reverb time down. Bass issues are more difficult to fix. They are a product of room dimensions, shape and construction. DSP can help reduce peaks but I would not drop them by more than 3dB as you risk introducing phase issues with your speakers beyond that. If you are not going to fill your room with bass traps, I would deploy active bass management. Two small, fast subwoofers strategically placed with help even out the bass response in the room as well as extend the bass and give better perception of dynamics. I would consider two REL T5s or BK Electronics XLS200s. Your system deserves a better streamer and DAC. The Naim stuff is good but pricey. I think the Hegel H160 will be a good upgrade of amp and DAC.
Looking and sounding better every video - you're getting the hang of this! Compare it to one of your first couple if you don't believe me:D Keep up the good work dude.
Thank you @@yyams I am enjoying the journey and it is great to learn new skills in an area I had no idea about before I started. I mean filming, lighting, editing, social media. I had never done any of it. Thank you once again for your support 😊👍
I try to follow the "buy once cry once" approach to audio especially, but everything in life, or I just end up spending more $! I think one must discuss diminishing returns, which kick in at different points for different gear, which you cover well. Don't forget the issue of the point of no returns! Digital sources diminishing returns -> no returns kicks in hard at around 2k US, and past that it's looks, build quality, etc, vs audible (vs measurable...) improvements, and there's nothing wrong with that either, but bits is bits and human hearing remains the same regardless of changes in measured improvements in digital sources.
The law of diminishing returns kicks in at different points for different individuals. For most people who are not used to listening to a decent hifi system a £500 system may be sufficient. Well healed audiophiles who have spent decades developing their listening skills and have a dedicated, treated listening room may not be able to live without their £200,000 system. Ask Michael Fremer. I suppose I was trying to give most people new to the hobby some general guidance 🤔Thank you for sharing your perspective 😊
Really good, on point, advice. Enjoyed the series, and yes, I went back and watched the other two first. I’m struggling with both digital and analog sources; particularly the DAC/streamer issue. I think I’ll probably bite on the Schiit Bifrost or something similar (but no wall warts). I was considering the Cambridge streamer/DACs, but it’s a big investment for someone who is not currently streaming. I don’t know of any way of using digital inputs from my iPhone, and I managed to blow up two channels on my Yamaha AV amp the one time I tried streaming Stevie Ray Vaughn at max volume. It seems the Yamaha had a hard time driving my vintage AR-2ax speakers, although I still don’t understand why, must have been the impedance curve on the bass or drums. But I digress. I will use the phone to stream into my Radio Shack MPA-250 (125 wpc), rated down to 4 Ohms into my vintage Cerwin-Vega DX7 speakers also rated at 4 Ohms capable of handling 255 Watts. I make sure to watch the ‘clipping’ LED when I set the volume. The speakers are capable of volume levels one shouldn’t be in the with unless you’re hanging out with your friend ‘Max.’ :-)
Hi, love your channel. The most down to earth, logic and sincere reviews and tips. You hit a note there on the old dacs having a hard time competing with newer ones. Recently bought a small cheap streamer ‘advanced acoustics wtx pro’ for 350€. Tried a second hand Rega dac-r (costs double that of the streamer new) as an upgrade and found that the improvement was about 10%. In my opinion to little for the money. I’ll be trying a linear psu now. Thinking of trying teddy pardo usb psu. It would be noce of you to review some of their grear. Supposed to be great value,
In the mid-70s the advise in magazines and shops was to split your budget three ways - source, amplification and speakers. Then along comes the Scot Ivor Sigmund Tiefenbrun who simply built a better engineered turntable. A lot more came later and for years your original Linn Sondek could be upgraded to the latest specification until there was nothing left of the original. This seemed nonsense but the advise that came with it was go to a dealer and listen with your own music selection. Even with a modest arm and cartridge the Linn would out perform turntables costing huge amounts more. With a top end arm and cartridge it would taken no time to know the difference. Whether you personally wanted to paid for that difference over the likes of the Rega was and is another matter entirely. I built my own hi-fi system mostly from reviews in magazines and the price point I considered paying and experience of selecting and putting together the system for my parents. The components were all good and certainly performed the 20:80 rule but they were not the best combination I could get. I was invited by a North London dealer to bring them along to their show room where they had set up their choices as alternative and upgrade equipment. I was able to connect up to other equipment and do real A/B comparisons. My amplifier certainly matched the alternative and magazine favourite but neither drove my speaker choice adequately. The magazine favourite from Kef were/are more efficient and a better match. Upgrading to a 100Watt mono block amplifier made my speakers take a whole step up in performance. The turntable was the component that made the most difference even in changing the cartridge from one you could buy for pocket money to monthly salary level. Over the following weeks and months I visited a couple of shops to see and listen to equipment on demonstration where, between them serving other customers, I was able to put on my own albums and compare equipment. At a certain level equipment deciding which was better became impossible to determine. Difference was easy but what may be better on one album was not on another. I selected the equipment that for me did most sources well. I picked active analogue speakers and the Linn. Nearly 10 years later I upgraded the Linn and it took all of two bars of the first track played to hear the improvement over my own Linn deck. Although I could have further upgrades to my Linn I no longer felt that I could justify the further cost. 40 years on I still have the same speakers. Now much harder to get repaired but when working still give that "wow" factor every time I listen to them. I recently have been looking for newer products that match the quality of what I have. I find this harder in many respects. Far more choice of products but even harder to do A/B comparisons. The buying power of £1 has risen 4.2x in 40 years but the equivalent speaker 15 to 50x in cost. e.g. Roger LS3/5A near field studio monitors sold for £189 in 1980,. Production resumed in 2019 for a price of £2750 (15x increase). I moved to home theatre. Whilst it is easy to get an AV Receiver and passive 5.1 or 7.1 speakers the innovation, particularly in room correction has been in DSP and active speakers with their own DAC. Getting the digital from the source (files on a computer or streaming service) to remain digital through to the DPS speaker and it's Toslink or Coaxial digital input is only easy for a stereo system. There are two ways of digital audio out on a computer. Onboard or external sound card and the graphics card having 7.1 on the HDMI output. USB to a sound card or external DAC with USB input or HDMI splitter that puts video out to a monitor/TV and HDMI Arc to an AV receiver or sound bar. A hi-fi DAC is stereo. Digital outputs are usually stereo only. HDMI splitters are 1080p and not 4K or 8K. Where as we can mix and match 40 year old equipment with any modern analogue components digital standards and protocols have changed many times and can be broken by a software update particularly if a mobile phone is used to configure and control them.
I was selling hifi in the late 70s to mid 80s. We worked on the principle of GIGO (garbage in garbage out). I'd stand with that today for analogue sources. Nothing in your system can replace missing data from the LP, nothing can repair faults (distortion) from the LP. Bearing in mind that a £250 turntable today would have bought a £75 turntable in 1980 it seems to be cheapskating hugely to spend so little on the device that provides everything that you will hear through the amp and speakers. Looking at what £250 buys today we can see that this is hardly what people with a memory would call quality. Some difference is made up with improved materials and manufacturing technique - but not all of it! I don't think the same applies to digital though. That stuff is, as Arun implies, pretty much disposable! A cheap dac can sound pretty good but even there, there is a price floor. I have been using an Allo Digital Boss dac/streamer. It was significantly better than other units I tried that cost less, albeit that I paid less than £200. Now, I use a Cambridge Audio Cxn V2. Cost was about £700. It serves as dac, streamer and preamplifier to my system. I don't think it sounds much better than the Allo Digital unit. The purchase came down to user convenience; that's where the value lies. I didn't want to spend double the money to go up a step and with my tinnitus afflicted ears I doubt that I'd hear a value difference. If I were serious about vinyl, I'd spend much more on the turntable/arm/cartridge than £2-300. In my case, I bought a reel to reel machine and love it. It's 40 years old. In good condition and cost just shy of £500 - I bought in at the bottom end! It was a relative bargain. I used to sell the same machine for £250 back in 1980. That's about £850 in today's money. Analogue is about engineering. Electronics are cheap. Engineering costs money and the only way to do it cheap is to make it badly.
Hi Andrew, I am not proposing that more expensive turntables aren’t a worthy investment. They clearly are. I don’t think there needs to be such a high barrier to entry in the turntable space. One of the few things to change in turntables in the last 20 years is that budget turntables have got a lot better. It is an interesting debate though 😉
When I got back into CDs I wanted a stand-alone device to play them. I bought an old Maratz DV3002 DVD player and replaced the laser mechanism (degrades over time). Was about 50 bucks including the replacement part. It has a shitty internal DAC, but I use the coax digital output to my DAC, so the DVD player is used as a CD transport only and I benefit from the quality sound of the DAC I already have.
Hi Tarun, while your advice is to spend as little as possible on a DAC, most reviewers including you say that the Denafrips Ares II is absolutely amazing. So I would love your five cents on my next investment: At the moment I am using the internal DAC of the Wiim Mini streamer into a Denon PMA 520AE (250€ new 8 years ago) into Canton Karat 720 speakers from 1990 (150€ used on ebay, today would cost about 800€ factoring in inflation). The combination sounds pretty good to my ears and when I listened to a combination of Exposure 2010 with last generation ATC SCM7s yesterday (A/B listening in same room, source was a 4000€ Hegel CD Player), I couldn't hear that much of a difference actually - not so much that it made me spend a couple thousand euros for sure. I have been thinking about what to invest in next and after considering 4000€ investments into all kinds of systems, I am now considering keeping at least the speakers or maybe even the amp, because I feel that the DAC is probably the weakest link. I have appointments with dealers tomorrow and the day after where I will listen to various other systems (among them also the Acoustic Energy AE1s after I heard you rave about them but also more expensive gear). So my question is: what do you think about upgrading my DAC to an Ares II with the option of building on that later? Or do you have any other recommendations? Love your videos and your advice would be greatly appreciated. Best wishes, Christian
Hi Christian, I seems you have a fairly balanced system. Upgrading can be tricky. By all means go for the Aries and upgrade the rest later However, I ask ask yourself two questions first: 1. What do do want to achieve by upgrading? 2. What speakers will move you in that direction and work well in your room? If you struggle, check out some of my Patreon tiers and I would be happy to walk you through the process 😊
@@abritishaudiophile7314 Hi Tarun, thanks for your response. I have since listened to more speakers and am now „cured“ and no longer think that my system sounds great. Actually I could use your help and would love to have a videochat but didn’t quite get the Patreon tiers. Would we be able to make a video call if I sign up for 1 month of „Consultancy“? I couldn’t afford this for more than a month unfortunately.
@@tubesticker Hi Christian, that is how the consultancy works. You only sign up for as long as you need it. I will send you a bunch of questions in preparation of our video call. These will help me assess your current system, setup and possible issues. They will also help me determine your needs, wants and come up with some options depending on which direction you want to take your system. That way we will be able to get the most of our video chat. One call and a few emails is normally enough. I don’t anticipate you needing to be on the Consultancy tier for more than a month.
Hi again Tarun. I have a random and honestly a very basic question, slightly embarssing too. Perhaps I know the answer but struggling to elucidate in my mind. Good quality amps give a different type of sound, or let's say different sound signatures. Some are airy at the top, some lush in the mids, some come with heavy bottom end. I have experience of using multiple amps and can easily pick up the differences. When we talk about the DACs we again talk about similar things, with a little more emphasis on resolution and separation. My question is what are the real differences between amplifiers and DACs of the same stature, given my comments above. Thanks a lot!
@@abritishaudiophile7314 Then what is the point of adding a DAC on top of a high quality amplifier? In other words what value a DAC adds to the overall system if the amplifier is already of good quality?
Hi Tarun, having grown up at the time when Ivor Tiefenbrun stalked the halls of hi-fi emporiums in this land, I disagree with you on the importance of the source and in particular, turntables. Ivor's argument is that you re-mortgage your house to buy your turntable and put a minimalist amp and speakers on the end of it to have the most satisfaction from listening in the long term. Whole volumes were written in the press at the time and the argument was, do you spend equal money on each part or bias it to the source? After all, once the information is lost, you're just amplifying distortion. So, Rega 3, A&R A60, Audiomaster MLS4 vs Linn Sondek LP12, NAD 3020, AR17. When I finally upgraded to the Linn I understood what all the fuss was about. If you're considering vinyl, my advice would be to listen to the most expensive turntable you can find and work down until the sound vs cost works for you. If you go the other way, you may end up never realising just how amazing the format can be. I bow to your expertise on the DAC side, but I will say that the difference between mid level (£300ish) and entry level high end (£1,000plus) CD players is chalk and cheese. It's a comparison I make daily in my two listening rooms. All the best, Mark
Thank you Mark for sharing your experiences and insights. I was a young man around in the Ivor Tiefenbrun era and do remember him being the leading advocate of the source first approach. I agree that spend as much as you can on a turntable and you won’t need to change it often. The DAC game has changed in the last 10 years. £300 DACs just ifffer so much performance and improvements are still happening at a fast pace. Once again, thank you for posting I wanted different perspectives as that is exactly what will benefit viewers most. 😊👍
Mark...I am from the time of the vinyl only world. The current vinyl fad will be gone when people like me are gone. No one who wants the best, non deteriorating sound medium will be buying turntables. Young people are purchasing vinyl like it's the new hula hoop. There are many stories of them hanging the albums on the wall as vintage objet d'art and don't own a turntable and never will. CD's are an older technology but a half century newer than vinyl. Streaming will be the choice for most audiophiles sooner than anyone now thinks.
I've noticed on eBay that there are people listing and selling job lots of miscellaneous LPs - say 12 for £30. But the buyer chooses the LPs for you... and then the punter ends up with any old stuff, maybe some mixed Showaddy, Mantovani, Ken Dodd and Nana Mouskouri - the vinyl equivalent of some mixed Oasis and Robbie Williams CDs. But oddly only about 1 in 10 buyers grumbles! It took me a time to get my head round this, but it's actually trendies buying LPs to put on their trendy little shelves under their trendy little turntables. Audiophiles will always retain a fascination for turntables, but I think the industry is milking a trend at present - witness the countless versions of Rega Planars on the market. Umpteen brands - same basic turntable. Ultimately I can't see this will last.
David and Big Ma(😀), I agree. My interest in vinyl is really just nostalgic. I bought and re-built a Sansui SR222 MkII for my office system, as it was the first turntable I owned. It has a new MDF plinth and base, replacing the original chipboard and hardboard items. It has silver litz tonearm wiring going to silver plated phono sockets with Mogami/Nakamichi RCA cables of my own making to a vintage NAD 3240 amp. Sounds better than a Rega 3 I had for a couple of weeks and looks stunning. However, I listen to CDs exclusively on my main system. Just for fun, I listen to FM radio, also in my office system, on a NAD 4020A. Again it has new proper RCA sockets and is fully recapped with Elna Silmic II electrolytics. Oh, and I also bought and recapped a Yamaha cassette deck so my wife can play her Christmas tapes. The office CD player is slightly newer vintage being a NAD C541i. So much fun and not a network/streamer/discreet DAC anywhere to be found! Anyway, back to Claire Martin, "Believin' It" on a Linn CD. Have a good even all.
Tarun: I'd like to see you do a piece on "streamers and DAC's" When I first waded into streaming a year ago, I got terribly confused by what each component DOES. Yeah, Darko talks about it, but I can't find he ever parsed what's what. His endless bits and snatches just confused me more. I'm not suggesting any reviews. Just some topology of what's what, and what each piece of the puzzle does. We have several processes to do: connect to wifi or such, probably run an app, provide a selection ability, interface to a service's stream, display program info, do a search function, provide transport controls, interface to a network hard drive, decode the program data, convert digital to analog, etc.
Hi Jim, I understand there can be a lot to get to grips with depending on your set up. I am not massively into streaming, if truth be told. I still prefer the sound on music stored on my hard drive fed directly into my Auralic streamer. It sounds better than streamed music over Tidal. Don’t get me wrong, I do listen to Tidal to discover new music but if I really like something I purchase the CD or high res file (occasionally) and store in on my hard drive. My advice is to keep things as simple as possible. Pick one streaming service. Run the app on your streaming device and be done with it. If you have stored music, I would keep it on a hard drive (I use a Western Digital 2TB USB drive) and plug it in directly to your streamer. Get a second hard drive to back up your stored media. You won’t be able to play the stored media in multiple rooms but you can avoid the rabbit hole of remote drives connected through network bridges and switches. If you want remote access, Hans Beekheuzen has a great channel and explains things very thoroughly. I hope this helps a little 😉
Hi there. Nice video. I agree with you on technology advancement resulting in nowaday’s budget DAC outperforms expensive DAC from yesteryears. However, I think putting price as the base of sonic excellence is not totally accurate. Perhaps, that’s why many less-honest audio equipment manufacturers use looks & price as the barometer for good sound (combine that with audiophiles with self overrated ears, and you will know what I mean).
Excellent advice, thanks, I can't see me ever buying a turntable, I have no vinyl, I only stream from Amazon HD, I've tried Tidal and Qobuz, Amazon HD in terms of price, FLAC codec, music catalog easily wins in my opinion. Indeed DACs are very tricky to know where to put your money, at the moment I'm using a £22 phone DAC based on a realtek chip which should sound like garbage but to my ears it sounds more detailed / enjoyable compared to my Topping D50 DAC, I know the D50 will measure way better than my £22 phone DAC as per the audio science review, all I can say is since experimenting with these cheap phone DACs my D50 is just sitting there gathering dust. The phone DAC I'm using claims it can extend up to 80KHz, no idea if that's the reason it sounds better or maybe being a headphone amp the analogue stage drives the line in better or maybe is has no capacitors in the audio chain, all guesses. I was using Audirvana with my D50 and upsampling to 768Khz on my Topping D50 streaming Qobuz, this did sound good but since switching to Amazon HD I can't because Audirvana only supports Tidal and Qobuz. It would be interesting to hear your take on streaming services on the assumption you use one of these services, also whether you use third party players like Audirvana, foobar2000, roon etc, I'd assume you wouldn't use Spotify :)
Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences. I use Tidal for no other reason than that what was available at the time. I am not big on streaming as I still prefer the sound of my hard drive directly wired into my Auralic compared to Tidal. That is still how I do the majority of my listening. Darko is probably the best to talk about differences in speaking services as that is his thing. Thank you for the suggestion though, I may well look into it in the future. 😉👍
I agree on Amazon HD Music. I tried the free trials of Tidal, Qobuz, and Amazon HD before I settled on Amazon. Mostly, it was because the UI works/looks great on my iPad, and the search function keeps improving. But, I know audiophiles may have a hangup about Amazon not being premium enough.
@@beetooex This is DAC I'm currently using www.amazon.co.uk/Soditer-Adapter-Headphone-Realtek-Earphone/dp/B07MHH14M5 I'm driving this from a Windows 10 PC, I've tried other cheaper DACs like in the £7 to 10 range, most are based on the realtek chip but will do 32bit / 384 Khz, most sound very similar to this £22 version. I didn't A/B them but I think this is only £22 because it comes in a fancy case i.e. the technology / electronics I'd guess at being much the same as the cheaper models. My PC is highly optimized but I doubt that's anything to do with the sound signature, if you're playing audio from a PC though I would certainly look at your high precision timer settings / HPET, anyhow tuning PCs is a whole other subject... I've no idea how good these DACs / headphone amps are at driving headphones, I use the output to drive the RCA line level into my amp, as said I was expecting it to sound like complete distorted junk but it doesn't If you're going to drive this DAC from an iPad or phone you may notice it'll take a noticeable amount of juice from your battery, also driving DACs from phones you may not get true HiRes / HD audio, certainly Andriod does all sorts of odd internal resampling / mixing, not sure about Apple devices. For Android if you're going to play HiRes audio from your phone to a DAC via USB and you want true HiRes / bit perfect audio you need to use USB audio player pro / UAPP www.extreamsd.com/index.php/products/usb-audio-player-pro. If you're using Amazon HD music this isn't supported by UAPP, the reason I was given was that Amazon HD music has no external API for third party players, so if you want to use UAPP or Audirvana or another third party player you're stuck with Tidal or Qobuz for the time being or even perhaps forever. Although to me driving a different cheapo phone DAC from my phone with Amazon HD music to another amp in my garage with bookshelf speakers this sounds darn good to me but I know my phone re-samples (up-samples ?) to 96Khz seeing as I've hooked my phone to a Topping D10 and that has a display of the sample rate on the front.
@@jimshaw899 for me I liked the music catalog of Tidal but didn't like the MQA technology being used, it never sounded bad as per Spotify but Qobuz for me had the edge in terms of sound quality and seemed to have more tracks at 24 bit / hires, I liked the FLAC technology being used by Qobuz as well. Amazon HD music had both the catalog of Tidal and FLAC technology of Qobuz and is cheaper if you're prime member so it was a no brainer. The only downside for me was not being able to use the up-sampling provided by Audirvana but I was willing sacrifice that for all the other reasons I mentioned. Doing A/B testing between Amazon HD and Qobuz up-sampled to 768Khz I couldn't hear any massive difference if any, I didn't test extensively but it was close enough for me to be satisfied I wasn't compromising / losing anything major by using Amazon HD. Of course if I was using some top end gear may be there could have been some noticeable difference but for gear I have Amazon HD does an excellent job.
Using a $25 chromecast audio feeding digital streaming into 15 year old denon receiver with its built in dac, sounds pretty good... Put the most money through monthly tidal subscription and Roon.
What are your thoughts on Cambridge Audio? I’m running what some might call “British old school”. An 851a, a Dac Magic Plus and a Graham Slee Phono Stage. Really loving the sound so far.
@@abritishaudiophile7314 Thanks for the comment - the Dac was $250 US so I think I’m ok for a bit. Going to budget up for a speaker upgrade....currently SVS Ultra Bookshelves to.....yet to be revealed. Maybe something with a beryllium tweeter. 🤔 Thanks for your analytical and intelligent words on this vast topic of two channel audio!
Right now I exclusively stream but I'd like to have some physical media. Switch more to using streaming to finding music and physical for critical listening. I have a pretty decent DAC (and might go even higher end one day) so I could easily add on a CD Transport, but also my Integrated Amp has a pretty good phono stage. Leaning more towards CD though as new albums at least seem to be cheaper on CD. I could of course get a higher end streamer and DAC and just making my streaming sound better but there's something special (to me at least) about physical media.
I also do most of my serious listening through physical media. Still sounds a little better than streaming by Tidal. Thank you for watching and sharing your experiences 😊
Thanks, good guidelines, I have a Hi End turntable from 1978 and it's still a great machine. I'm sure it will sound just as good in another 42 years Ps..Feedback to your video "Demo Tracks" regarding female voices " Baby plays around" Anne Soffie von Otter & Elvis Costello album For the Stars
Wow, DAC....a very well covered topic. Im new to zero's & one's. I have a question, that hopefully you can shine some light on: Previously, I always had cd player hooked up directly to preamp. Now I recently purchased Cambridge Audio Azur 851N (love the British hifi). I noticed that this unit still had digital out(s). The streamer already has built in DAC & superior performance....so why there would be a need for additional digital outputs? I mean...does it ever end😃? Thank you in advance.
It never ends Arek but everybody has to draw a line somewhere. The digital outs are so you can connect external DACs of even better quality. Check out my review about the Denafrips Ares II. That would be the kind of external DAC to consider if you wanted to upgrade in time. 😊👍 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-bb-O8JF24PI.html
Hey ya Tarun. Thanks ever so much for sharing all of your knowledge with us. I loved your description of the relationship with a turntable. Well, I‘m married with my Linn LP12 since I was 15 (bought it used back in 1986) and will love it till I die. A whole different story with my DAC, a Lindemann Limetree Network: a very fresh love story, got it for a good year now. Does it‘s job quite well, but I think about getting a iFi power supply… could it really upgrade the sound of a 1000£ DAC? Aand one more question: why haven’t you ever reviewed any Linn gear? Thanks a lot for your work here and keep it going. Cheers from Switzerland Mario
Hi Mario, thank you for the kind works of support. Although, I haven’t tried your DAC, I would expect an improvement in SQ using the iFi over a standard switch mode power supply. I don’t current have a contact at Linn but I am sure I will get to review their products in time 😊👍
Good advice...I am using a raspberry pi fitted with a DAC HAT from Pifi Dac v2.0. The sound is definitely better than my computer. With lower noise floor and better clarity and separation.Do you think using a dedicate DAC such as SMSL sanskrit MKII will improve the performance of my computer over the Pi. The reason I ask is, because I have connected a Hard drive to the Pi with all my music from the PC and playing it through the Pi. Will the same music playing from the PC via a dedicated DAC give a better performance than the Pi. Thanks In Advance. P.S. Keep up the good work. really enjoy your videos.
I haven’t heard the Sanskrit but I would not expect it to be much better than what you have. Better to wait until you can get something around the £300 mark as a DAC upgrade. 😉
@@abritishaudiophile7314 Thanks for advice . Being from India it's very hard to get products. And is also not same with UK price. You have to pay some extra money..The reason I am saying this is because I have seen your video on amplifier cost thousands pounds...which are much costlier here... Therefore can you some amplifier which will be an upgrade to my existing Yamaha AS500..will Rega Brio be a substantial upgrade,as it's available here but no way to demo it.... But it's cost is almost 700 pounds here... Can you do a full tour of your system and settings in upcoming videos..... Thanks again for your... response... really appreciate your effort and time... Happy advance Diwali to you and your family
Happy Diwali to you too Meeraj. I did a video on my system when I started the channel last year. Link below... ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-WRLexTI1ZM8.html I think the Brio will only be a slight improvement over the AS500. I would go for the Rega Elex R even if you have to wait to get it. 😉
Tarun, I enjoy watching your videos as I learned a lot from them. Noticed in last few videos what it looks like the Triangle Genese trio behind you. If it is, are you planning to do a review in the near future? I have the triangle titus ez and planning to upgrade to the triangle Gaia Ez floor standing. But at the same time also reviewing the Quartet and Trios since they are available at a good price.
