And, just as with an Obrez, it doesn't even matter if you hit them with the bullet! The concussive blast alone will knock down and disable your target!
Right? I keep thinking about how deafening the Thompson Encore in .308 I used to shoot was, and how much worse it would be in a full auto. The HK-51, for when you absolutely, positively need to deafen everyone within in 100 feet of the muzzle.
I have to think that shooting this gun is like shooting a .454 Casull. It's a lot more fun to say that you shot one than it is to actually shoot one. However, this thing has the sexy lines of an MP-5 with a box mag that looks absolutely huge rather than that skinny 9mm mag of the MP-5.
As someone who trained in CQB killhouses... I can confirm that even with earpro on a 308 SBR is literally a tactical disorientation device. I had someone with a 10" AR10 in my stack and when he fired it indoors my teeth rattled into my skull and the flash from the compensator was like taking one of those old timey 1920s flash photos. Fun shit.
@@SpaceMissile Man I'm not even kidding, every time he pulled the trigger it was like getting smacked in the head with a tennis racket or something. The thing was ABSURDLY loud. Without earpro I'm positive you would have suffered instant hearing loss, if not total deafness, or even destruction of your eardrums. You could feel it in your chest, like if you've ever been to a heavy metal concert close to the speaker wall, you can feel the concussion of the bass... it was like that on steroids. It shook your whole nervous system
@@saltwatertaffybag when i got my pistol, i went to an indoor range with my brother. a guy two booths down had a .308 AK. that thing certainly announced its presence.
That idea happened in the Vietnam war with the Australian SASR and their armourer cut-down shorty SLR's with 30rd mags Essentially, having one of them open up on you in the middle of the jungle by bush ninjas was the equivalent effect of thinking that someone was shooting at you with a heavy machinegun and it'd be a good time to bugger off anywhere else. They called it 'The Bitch' because of all the reasons that come with a battle rifle cut down to ridiculous length
@@somersethuscarl2938 taking on fully titanium armored soviets in CQC on ships, I guarantee it. The Ruskies were real worried about their tactical boats getting commandeered in the waning days of the Union. I'm sure NATO made good on those fears more than once and we just don't know about it yet.
@@somersethuscarl2938 They were known as "car guns" kept in unmarked vehicles to escape illegal paramilitary vehicle checkpoints in Ulster. Overwhelming firepower to break through & escape. The alternative would be days of beatings before an unmarked grave. the Royal Military Police carried something similar in their WIP role.
I was aware of the G3 conversions - they were built for room clearance because they had a better "one shot knockdown" than 9mm. SAS doctrine is, apparently, very biased towards one-shot-kill...
@@edwardcullen1739 Undoubtedly this was people at the top that were never in any danger of actually having to use the thing. I heard someone say somewhere that they'd never heard anyone that had been shot by one complain about the stopping power of the 9mm. How many people that are that high on coke or PCP are you really going to encounter in military special forces?
@@bubba200874426 No, was "good authority". 😉 Related/unrelated, bro did a couple of tours in Iraq in the infantry... Stories about the lack of CQB knockdown power of 5.56 are not exaggerated. To be clear, "knockdown" is specific, as in, "knockdown and never get up". People who've been there prefer 1 shot, because that's literally all they may get; this is what motivated the development of .458 SOCOM. These were just the early 90s effort to plug that gap (see also 6.8 SPC). My guess is that SAS/SBS have switched to .458 too for this role, but have no insight, just pure speculation.
@@superturkeylegsnow, if we could ask Jonathan Ferguson to mount that absolutely sick mp5 grenade launcher he's got in the Royal Armouries collection to this, I think we can all declare ourselves to be ready to face our God.
@@udp1073 One? I want TWO! Shooting one in each hand with the classic "stock pinched with elbow" grip will make 100% I never hit anything while having at least 572% more fun than the other shooters.
@@tamlandipper29 almost certainly. HK already produce the L85 in some part and the MP5 has been a favourite for many years. I'm surprised a push on the 416 and 417 hasn't been made, we already use M4s and the L119 from the US. Brexit might make that less likely though as such trade agreements will almost certainly involve some extra bureaucracy.
@@andrewince8824 I find it fascinating that BAE Systems briefly owned H&K - it's a rare example of an at-least-theoretically British business buying a German business, and not the other way around. I always wondered what impact the G11 had on HK's finances (they spent aged developing it, then it had to be abandoned).
and H&K go "we have this on in 5.56" SAS then go "what about 7.62?" H&K "We are German not American!" I think what we really get out of this story is it's probably lucky that H&K didn't have one in 7.62 as the SAS would probably then asked for one in 50 BMG.
"Now pay attention double-o-seven, take this standard H&K G3 Rifle, note the shortened barrel. Fires Point three-oh-Eight ammunition. Blinding your adversaries for a quick escape."
The "Weapon" is intended for close quarters (i.e. vehicle carry) and most likely will not bounce off windshields, nor deflected by mere tree limbs or be slowed down by a car's door.
The first time i ever heard about this gun was through the old Half-Life 1 mod: "Firearms", which had one of these as a H&K 51B. Which is belt-fed of all things. It's nuts.
These were actually used a lot for vehicle born operations by SAS and SBS in Northern Ireland. Short and compact enough to conceal as well as maneuverer inside of a typical 80's 4 door saloon type car but with enough power to effectively punch through a windscreen and still deal some damage to a target. MP's and guys on VIP protection also really liked the HK51's in early 2000's Iraq before eventually adopting the 10 inch L119's and HK53's.
For when one flashbang at a time simply wont do. Basically an MP5 chambered in 7.62, nice. edit: I found a video of one of these being fired at night, automatic flashbang dispenser is spot on. The muzzle flash is hilarious.
According to legend, the Australian SAS developed a cut-down auto FAL (SLR in Australian) during the Vietnam war as a break-contact weapon. The idea was to produce a terrifying burst of fire with an enormous muzzle flash on contact with the enemy to allow a patrol a few precious seconds to skedaddle back the way they had come. Called 'the beast', I know nothing more about it, but perhaps there are veteran viewers who could shed some first-hand knowledge. I heard about this as a regular infantryman, post-Vietnam, and it was a well-known war story that sounded probably true.
@@nickmitsialis It's at least at as bad as the Rico Special. I haven't been brave/foolish enough to attempt to shoot it at an indoor range, but it'll rattle windows nearly 60yds away.
I had that too. I finally sold it because it was the days before pistol braces. Wish I still had it. It got me a lot of angry looks at the indoor range.
It needs a more aggressive brake to accentuate the effect. Didn't do it on purpose but I got the 'your gun is too loud' response from the braked magnum guys with my 7.62*39.
I had a ptr91 pistol and an FAL pistol. Both earned me many a dirty look at the indoor range lol. When I could hear people it was always someone complaining and those were just semi auto. This would have people crying for sure.
Once again Ian brings us a gem: this, gentlemen, is the logical evolution of the ar pistol Of course we need a firing test now Edit: 600 likes, now Ian has no excuses
Aaah, yes. The 'Angry Gun'. I have a semi-auto flavor of one of these. A linear compensator is REQUIRED, otherwise it will stress-test the integrity of your teeth and fillings. On the other hand, muzzle fireballs the size of a 5-gallon jug are hard to pass up!
The comp probably also improves the desired effects in CQB. "I'm not only going to spit .308 blast and flash at you from an 8.5" barrel, I'm gonna *focus* it at you." I imagine, even if you missed, at CQB ranges, indoors, the effect on the guys in the effect cone would be similar to a radar slapped with in-band brute force dazzle jamming.
H&K: *points at the gun* "This wasn't us, who made this?" *Looks at America* "It was you wasn't it?" America: *looks dazed and confused* Britain: *slowly raises hand* America: "I knew it, you're just as crazy as we are!" H&K: *facepalm*
@@destroyerarmor2846 thats why they make consistently gross and cringe looking guns. Take the Bren. Great machine gun, but looks like shit and isn't the easiest to aim with the mag being on the top
I remember as a kid seeing a few toy guns in this shape in toy shops and I always thought they made the mp5 toy but tried to put an m16 magazine into it, I found out many years later that they were HK51’s, big Daddy mp5’s In 308, insane recoil and muzzle flash to boot, good job Ian we need some magdumps and impressions on this, mabye a 3 gun with it too haha
Now when is he going to talk about the even more ridiculous HK51B belt feed? I was at a machine gun shoot in ‘91 where a dealer was firing one of these. I was about 10 feet behind the shooter and the muzzle blast was intense. The noise was comparable to the M2s that were there and double hearing protection would not have been a bad idea. I don’t want to imagine what this would have been like in a closed room.
This was actually a non-lethal weapon believe it or not. Simply fire and miss, and hostiles are pacified by losing both vision and hearing. Possible risk to user though.
I have shot one on numerous occasions and was surprised by 2 things. 1) it really does not recoil that badly, I suspect largely due to drastically less energy developed by that short barrel. 2) How controllable it really is! We did most of our shooting at 75-100 yards and you could with practice keep all the shots of a mag dump in a fairly small area! it was a lot of fun to shoot!
The biggest difference on the receiver is that the charging handle slot is cut back into the receiver vs the way it's set up on the G3 or MP5 where the j-cut is part of the cocking tube. That makes up for the long bolt movement required to cycle .308 despite the shortened cocking tube and shortened bolt. Just recently got the Form 1 back for a semi-auto SBR version of this built with CETME parts, and looking forward to the next range trip with it!
"Good Lord! Was that an A-10's GAU-8/A Avenger, doing a pass over there?" "No Sarge, it was Trooper Wilson giggling & going full auto with his HK51." I really want to see Ian on the range with that chonky thing.
I've seen a reference to these, or the 53 in 5.56, being carried in cars in Northern Ireland specifically to use if they got a contact when driving. The drill being to magdump this from the backseat through the windshield, while others bailed out to engage.
Ian, My best friend shared this video with me the other day. Thank you for bringing the spotlight to one of my fathers favorite weapons he ever built. I have in my personal collection a Fleming built H&K 51K (3.5 inch barrel) that I think you would have some fun with. Maybe one day we can give it a go together on the range. Keep up the good work Ian.
You should do an episode on the SAS Door Knocker (an 870 with Hatton slugs). I’m hoping Saturday morning’s episode is Ian shooting a 51 at night, wearing NVGs.
In one of Andy McNabb books he writes that in the Mid 90s the SAS had chopped down some of folding stock Argie FALs form use in Northern Ireland because the needed a weapon that could punch thru car doors...
Something to note about these, especially in the discussion of braced pistols: The roller delay action is very sensitive to how much support you have behind it. This means that if a gun is set up to function without a stock, it needs significantly higher bolt velocity to cycle reliably due to the way the recoil action can be absorbed by letting the gun move in your hands without a shoulder behind it. When people take a PTR that has been set up to work as a pistol and then put a cheater brace on it, without changing the locking wedge or the mainspring, they invariably have a gun that recoils excessively, beats the rollers to crap, and even cracks the stock. THIS IS NOT BECAUSE THE GUN IS CRAP. THIS IS BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORKS AND FAILED TO ADJUST CRITICAL COMPONENTS.
The roller system would be better if it was actually gas operated instead of blowback. The hk system looks like a situation where the machinist forgot to drill a barrel port and changed the roller locking bar to a wedge. It's got almost all of the parts for it as is. But oh well, it's better to rely on everything being just right instead of designing it to be flexible right?
Ian just trebled that guns price in auction. Real SAS/SBS heritage on model. Everybody notices when owner opens up in a MG shoot. :) That is alpha weapon.
Employed as an "Anti ambush" weapon - straight from the horses's mouth. I met John Mcaleese at a training course years after the troubles and he mentioned carrying one of these. If the vehicle you were in was stopped by aggressors, you jump out, unload a full magazine and in the resulting chaos, make good your escape. Of course, there were other applications but it's very much a "shock and awe" weapon. Very cool.
@Bannsider 100%. Of course I met John through his later career of airsoft training and in my team at the time was a lad who had been in the Det - he often enthusaed about the HK53 for all the reasons we've mentioned. For actual "business" it was 9mm all the way.
I enjoy listening to Ian, he always comes across as very chilled out and calm, Forgotten Weapons is my ASMR channel with guns, he should do a calming gun clean or something and put it out as an ASMR Autonomous sensory meridian response.
I was waiting for the end to have Ian say "And then in tomorrow's episode, we take this thing to the range" too bad we couldn't see that insane thing set of some car alarms
I just spent 7 & ½ minutes waiting for him to shoot it. Dis-uh-pointed! J/K...mostly. Very cool video and neat history of a cool weapon. Thanks for sharing!
*Reads "Full Auto Flashbang Dispenser" in the title* Me: So this is an SMG with a rifle granade? *watches first few minutes* Me: So its literally a very loud, very overpowered Flashlight
The old Firearms mod for Half Life featured what I think is an interesting take on this old gun. It was the HK-51, but belt fed with a 50 round belt... With obvious noise and flash issues modelled, but the compact firepower were noticeable.
I don't recall for sure, but there was an article done about this project in one of the popular magazines of the time... Perhaps Soldier of Fortune or Guns and Ammo. The article also described what Flemming called a " Moderator " for this short beast. A short Suppressor, which was designed to be just enough to tame some of the blast and fire associated with the short barrel... Interesting project...!
The intended use of these would surely have been vehicle based engagments. For example, the SAS spent a lot of time in civilian vehicles in NI on stakeouts, tailing POIs etc. If they got into a firefight, then something like this would have been fearsomely handy. 7.62 rifle that you can quickly pull up out from next to your seat would certainly be helpful if they got into a car chase or some kind of engagement. I remember reading an account from 'Andy McNab' in Immediate Action where he found himself in a car chase in NI. How truthful it is, who knows, given the source, but certainly plausible. The best part of this video though? That it's out on Friday, and I think we all know what Ian will be uploading for us tomorrow!
From what I understand these were bought for N Ireland. The 53 was in use by SAS and 14 Int at the time but was found to struggle when shooting from vehicle to vehicle, so they wanted something compact size but in 7.62. They tried a few options including cut down automatic FALs with folding stocks and this thing but settled on the G3KA4.
As far as 80’s and 90’s modus operandi of UK special forces this totally makes sense as a vehicle PDW. When vehicle ambushes were common not much else more powerful could be unleashed from the confines of a vehicle. Opponents of the era had G3’s, FALs, FNC’s and a Franchi spas at the Loughall ambush.MO of that era was you would catch a full auto burst for being associated with known enemies even if unarmed. Dark times! Ultimately the barrel was too short for .308 and the concussion too much, hence HK53 saw more use. The G3A4K was used well into the 2000’s by the UK, idiot proof and relatively compact. Even with a fast powder 11.5 is the shortest for a .308 size cartridge before ballistics drop off drastically
There are quite a number of “unusual” firearms used by the SBS that you have yet to cover, often ones which are particularly useful when using a Klepper folding kayak (1 or 2 man powered) as well as tools necessary for use during submarine insertions and SBS swimmer/canoeists carrying out beach reconnaissance etc. It’s often been said that there’s a massive amount of jealousy/bad blood between the Hereford guys (SAS) and the lads at Poole (SBS) but it isn’t the case. If anything it’s down to one bunch of highly trained land orientated professionals recognising what a similar branch of highly trained sea & air** orientated professionals can accomplish and vice versa. Unfortunately our political masters think they know better as they use information from the bean counters to try and justify cramming both units together, much as they’ve tried multiple times cramming both our maroon mates of the Parachute Regiment, into a shotgun marriage with the Royal Marines Commandos, without appreciating that they’re both quite small units with differing areas of expertise and that such a stupid move would not result in the financial savings they hope for. Time and again, both regiments have shown that they’re such good force multipliers that they already save the ungrateful government (of the day) far more than conventional forces would cost. Not only that, but both regiments (and the various SF units) have shown there adaptability to make do and mend instead of pushing for all that nice “Gucci” kit that our American cousins only need to ask for! Sorry Ian, I hadn’t intended to go off on one but now my time is very short I’m trying to use these opportunities to clarify some truths that the politicians/government (of the day) would prefer to be kept in house and under wraps instead of allowing the civilians know just how bad things are. ** I only mentioned the air based qualification partly due to its presence on the original emblem (frog, parachute, crossed canoe paddles, motto “not by strength, by guile”) instead of the newer “thing” which has an altered motto as well. It tends to give away my age as would my references to it as the Special Boat Squadron, which would change to the SB Service in the mid/late 80’s or so. Anyway, thanks Ian, for the occasional yomp down memory lane.
There isn't any bad blood. Let's think about it for a second.....If you have been in either unit, and let's say you're 22SAS and fancy seeing what the SBS are about, they will let you go down to poole and join them same with SBS going to 22SAS....Nothing like the US army and navy tier 1 units .....where you get fanboys of either units arguing about who's best!
@@nickjohnson710 This is an attempt at answering any questions you might have had had he survived a bit longer. When he finally died on the 27/28th October 2023 on the Royal Marine Commando birthday it seemed to be all he cared about, but with all the “Gucci Drugs” and quite a bit of whiskey onboard (his idea of a rum ration!) he eventually died peacefully at home as he’d persuaded the medics with whom I’d worked with for quite some time, and they understood how important it was to be in a comfortable setting for his final TAB. I’m only keeping this YT account open for a bit longer just to let people know that he’d finally given up. Considering he was was only given 12-18 months at the start and some chemo that might slow it down, there being no chance of recovery and he managed to live on for nearly our 11th wedding anniversary in February 2024, he was a typical bootneck to the end! Anyway, this pre-prepared letter might answer some questions whilst adding new ones to the mix. If you’d like anything further then just use this logon site and I’ll try to catch up later on. All best wishes for you and yours. Dr. Pam Yorkshire. I’d like to point out that I never suggested that I never acknowledged nor agreed with these numpties, clueless wannabes, Walter Mitty’s and their obsession that they don’t understand the close relationship that all the western SF units that exist and their professional approach to their respective communities. Personally I started out in 1978 - 2008 (ret’d almost intact except in some areas**) training to be a Royal Marine Commando as a 2Lt but aiming to join C Squadron, SBS, which I have to admit, was most fun I’d ever had. Being part of a 2/4/8 man team according to the mission was great fun. We were often paired up as hunters or the hunted depending upon the operation at hand (or something that may or might not get the green light, but whilst we were x-training with our colleagues from America, Canada, France , Germany….”and Uncle Tom Cobley and all”. If you’re old enough to know about that song I’d imagine that you’re no spring chicken! Anyway, there’s always been a lot of professional pride for your unit such that the simplest of tasks turns into a challenge, usually a timed one, of neatly stacked of an HGV’s worth of boxes. Loser buys the beers that night, at least for the first round. Then the evening will develop into a small group of guys that are clearly military and they’re built like the old school brick “heads”. We never discuss politics as we all know that they’re only interested in enemy dead/dying including ourselves, assuming the SBS ever gets any acknowledgement and the media are just as dumb because they’re still mindful of the Iranian hostage nonsense such that when “British SF units” are mentioned it’s our army mates up the road in Hereford, which is fine by ourselves as we could keep our involvement down to a passing comment! There’s a great deal of crossover training between such units and I’d never, ever, consider wasting my time if such a question about which tier of SF were best when the question was placed by some nationalist that only expects the only correct answer is SEAL Team 6. Just as we’re never even on the “radar”, it’s leaves us free to act accordingly which also helps as the clueless media hope they get the answer they’re expecting! Great copy for the media, a lousy POV for the SAS/SEAL’s, and nothing to be said about the tiny little hangars on the “play around in bouts! **several bits of “internal bling” was included in my legs and lower back and some in the intestines area, which adds up to fun at airports. It was decided that trying to remove it would cause long term pain and permanent sciatica. I didn’t bother my GP with it after I’d retired so I was, to say the least, quite shocked to be told I had Stage 3B terminal C. All that time doing a dangerous job with hardly a scratch but now I’ve got terminal cancer which isn’t curable by anything and the last HALO jump I did was a fecking fiasco so I’m about 45mm/1.14” shorter than I was. Now the cancer’s back on a TAB and interfered with the prognosis having metastasised to 4B Aggressively Terminal, I still think I’ve been incredibly lucky even though it might be slow and miserable, at least I won’t be aware of it. This is the pre-written response that David intended to pass on after his death 28th October (1664 so he made it into his final end with a few glasses of nice single malt whiskey. As I was a Palliative Care Consultant when we started dating it was clear that, as he would say, “that heeded his doctors advice, but make it quick as he’d eg one past his expiration date/best before date, but that’s something to bare in mind if you meet a stubborn Yorkshireman/part NE Scotland, as they’re fecking bloody minded and stubborn as anything when it came to his men’s welfare, and applied that when dealing with other people. I would think that you would love to have heard some of the “dits” but few of them would pass the censorship implemented by RU-vid!
I may be remembering wrongly, but years ago I seem to remember reading one of those memoirs of an SAS member books and this gun was mentioned as being developed as a car gun for covert ops in Northern Ireland as they wanted something that could easily and rapidly be maneuvered in and out of a vehicle, but having more punch than a 9mm MP5. I hate to think of the hearing damage if it became necessary to fire this beast from inside a vehicle.
Gotta love that roller delay though. Usually with a project like this they have to change so many components but all they really needed to make from scratch for this one was the barrel.
If ever a gun *screamed* for one of those blast cans - which would also increase the desired effect downrange, by somewhat focusing the blast towards the target... which is good, as a full length G3 is already somewhat distracting to the shooter on full auto already... I'd also want a rock solid "broomhandle" forward grip on that beast if I intended to flip the Giggle Switch to "Mo' Money". Both to make sure my boogerhooks stayed attached to my support hand and didn't slip past the muzzle under recoil *and* to help control what I can only imagine is a climb rate like an F-15 on afterburner.
HK53. We used alongside RMP Close Protection. And of course 14 Int, SAS/SBS. At the time a advanced weapon system. We were still bringing along the HI Power 9mm and Sterling SMG
Okay so I know only a little about guns but what popped to my head is "What would happen if you took this and gave it the integral suppressor treatment of MP5SD?"
"A waste of time and money, and fsr larger and heavier than it needs to be." If you want a short barrelled select fire rifle throwing subsonic .308 bullets, build a .300BLK integrally suppressed AR15 upper, and drop it on a registered M16 lower (or AR15 lower with an RDIAS). At least the .300BLK is designed for efficient powder burn in short barrels, and you aren't having to vent nearly as much gas to get it subsonic (in fact, with proper bullet choice, you'll get subsonic .300BLK without venting - they even sell it over the counter as standard factory ammo), and youbarent dealing with the recoil impulse of a 7.62x51mm NATO. With the stock in a firing position (probably even if comparing the guns with the stocks fully collapsed, even with the AR buffer tube because you'll need a lot.of volume for the .308 suppressor unless you want to play around with custom bolt heads to adapt the roller delay to a downloaded charge), the gun will be shorter, lighter, better balanced, and almost certainly a more svelte forearm.
