Hold Conditioning vs Force Fetch: Why Hold is Better 

Lots of good information in this video. People need to understand this isn’t something that can be taught in one session. It takes time and patience. Thanks for the information. I’m currently going through these steps with my new dog.

Just want to thank you for showing this. I steal so much of these techniques from you guys for use on family pet training.

This is exactly what I needed to finish my Boykin! Thank you!

I start teaching hold with a gloved hand...2 seconds of success is better than 5 seconds of failure. With a gloved hand, I think it is easier for pup to understand the hold concept and not to chew, especially not to chew the owners fingers, plus pup cannot spit out a gloved hand. I usually teach hold before each feeding session, so twice a day, max 2 minutes per session. Start with a gloved hand building hold gradually for a few seconds sequentially, until pup can reliably hold for >2 minutes without chewing/spitting out. Then transition to a big leather mitten, then a canvas bumper, then a plastic bumper. After hold is solid, then I start the force fetch process. Why force fetch? Because I run field trials/hunt tests where the retriever must reliably retrieve a wet, cold, skanky duck at hundreds of yards distance away from the handler and the retriever must not drop to shake after exiting water. If I was exclusively hunting, I would not force fetch as every bird in hunting is a freshly shot flyer, not a cold, skanky bird with the scent of other dogs from previous retrieves.

After visiting the US the from the U.K. and attendance at a Forced retrieve workshop, I came home convinced there was another way of addressing reluctant hold in retrieving dogs.( in the U.K. forced retrieve is pretty much unheard of.) I came up with the same process, which is kind of reassuring!! Great to see, thanks.

Watching the video there is one thing that would make this much easier. This isn't a criticism but for people watching the video something to think about. The freezer being a slippery surface causes distraction for the dog. If the dog is on a purpose built table with a non slip surface your results will come much quicker. When teaching hold or force fetch for that matter you want the dogs full concentration to be on the teaching. When the dog is on the freezer you are now teaching two totally different things 1. How to turn off the stimuli and stop skating/panicking on the freezer and two completing the hold by relaxing with the dowel in its mouth. It also helps to have a close line type of line from one end of the table to the other above the dogs head. This will help once you get your hold started and before you transition to the ground. The line allows your dog to focus on walking back and forth on the table without any distractions. When you have that down on the table the transition is much easier when you move to the ground and then to the outside. Since this was a seminar I am sure this was what was available at the time and probably was discussed off camera.

Great instruction; never understood the benefits of introducing a negative concept into a positive program.

Thanks for the video, great explanation. My dal is the same like that lab... thinking: hmm I'm sitting on a desk with strangers touching me, I'm must be at the VET again oh no. So he panics lol

So I have started conditioning the hold of my obedience sport dog. She has always brought anything I have thrown back to me. Now I need to finish the delivery of the formal retreive and I decided to go with backchaining. I am making progress with hard dowls and some other rigid object to discourage "munching." Down the road I want all of her retreives to look pretty like a formal retreive.

I have a question. I’m just starting to dive into bird dogs, from protection training. I’m not understanding why a clicker isn’t used to get the dog to put the dowel into the mouth via shaping? It would go faster and have zero conflict. I’m sure there is a reason…?

Stating hold conditioning will get the same results as force fetch is just simply not the case and that statement is a result of not truly understanding the purpose behind “force fetch”.

That is force too. No matter what you call it, you cant think you are not using force on hold conditioning. Im not trying to hate on you, just stating the facts and giving my opinion. I have thaught my retriever a reliable hold and delivery without force, using just positive reinforcement. I like your videos even tho I dont agree with all of it. Hope you will not take this as hate.

I’ve got a 1 year old lab I’m working with. He is good with dowel, bumper and other items. However, this evening I tried with a frozen and thawed bird and he was mouthing so much I could barely stop his mouth from moving. I don’t like using that much pressure on a bird out of fear of creating a negative connotation. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

The trainer here is a very good trainer, and obviously cares about the dogs he is training. What he is doing is good, and 99% of what he says is valid. However, he's missing one important point, plus he advocates his opposition to "foce fetch" for an invlalid reason, and when he is done, he is still depending on the desire/instinct of the dog to perform a retrieve. Honestly, for most people, most of the time, that will be sufficient. But what is a problem is that the dog still has the option of deciding he doesn't want to retrieve if some condition exists that discourages him. Maybe cold water, heavy cover, another dog in heat etc. etc. All he is teaching/training is that IF the dog decides to retrieve, the dog won't drop the object. He doesn't address the issue if the dog decides he doesn't want to retrieve in the first place. Desire/instinct are great, and may be sufficient most of the time, but not ALL the time. He says he doesn't like force fetch because he doesn't want dog to associate anything negative with fetching. But do we not use force when we start to teach a dog to "sit"? Or when we teach a dog to "come", or when we teach "heel". Of course we do. We may use a stick or a newspaper and tap to dog's rear end for sit. We use a rope or long leash and jerk on it to teach come/here, and we use a leash and a collar and force to teach heel. But we only use enough force to start, and then only enough to get the job done. I can guarantee you, that force fetch done correctly, will result in less trauma or negativity than what the dog in the video exhibited by being tied up and put on top of a slippery freezer. I've force trained dozens of labs and the key here is to do it CORRECTLY. After 3 or 4 short sessions with a few minor ear piches to get the idea started, very little force/pressure/pinches are needed after that. Instead, lots of repetition, praise and simplification work best. Teaching "hold", is still the first step, but the trained retrieve follows. I think maybe this trainer saw or experienced someone who wasn't a good trainer force training dogs, and made some assumptions about the process in general.

How long should you expect before the dog gives in? I’m on day 3 … 15 min sessions. My GSP won’t stop fighting it. I’ve tried a bumper … different sizes and even went to a towel wrapped up. Will he eventually stop fighting it ? He’s a 1 yr old.

It is nice to see dogs doing what you need or want them to do with happiness instead of a very submissive posture (they thinking here come another punishment).

Great job!

Very interesting training on the hold

Subscribed...Thanks for the video....My French Brittany is an awesome pointer but no retrieve instinct at all. I'm going to give Hold Conditioning a whirl. Brittany's are a bit timid and I know Forced Fetch would never fly. Already showing progress in his first few sessions.

Good video. This is the one I needed.

I don't understand, I taught my dog to retrieve a static object to my hand in 7 mins, start to finish using positive reinforcement. Why is there a need for the method you use? What advantage does it have?

Would love to see this method done on something other than a lab or golden. Wouldn't work for many, many dogs who can think for themselves.

Excellent video! I couldn’t fine this anywhere. Whoever teaches the hold skip this part for some reason. Thank you!

Do you see any problem with me using a pvc pipe if that's all I have at home and forget to buy a wooden one every time I'm at the store?

My springer will not submit to the hold. He fights me on it every time, the whole time. He will retrieve up to 6-8 ft away and drop it.

What would be a good age to start the hold conditioning in a pup?

A little rubber on that deep freeze would make it less slippery for the dog for training.

How old is this dog in the video?

I've looked at a few videos and think I'm missing something - what's the point of having the dog on a short leash on a tabletop/freezer? I want to start teaching my squirrel dog a more reliable retrieve/hold and since there's almost no advice other than bird dogs, I'm hoping bird dog techniques may work for her. Being that she's a submissive type dog, I think hold conditioning is going to be more successful than a forced fetch. She does go stiff when on top of a surface (ie the vet) but what's the connection with the freezertop and the hold? I'm pretty sure I just missed the explanation somewhere along the way!

Boy from reading some of Karen comments tells me how many dog owners think of them as humans and not an animal. What they also don’t realize is once they learn commands it’ll help them become a great and worthy companion, they more they know they better they like it and know their place

Gotta chessie/Boykin mix gonna try this

Is it gums or lips out of the way? Trying to teach my standard poodle to retrieve birds.

OK, I think you do a nice job of training but your misleading folks a bit. FF is not just forcing on bumpers and birds. I cant imagine there are many ret folks that dont. incorporate some "hold" conditioning in their program and dont use items unrelated to stuff they will be asked to retrieve. T You are starting pups off on the right track, teach hold first, multiple objects , then ecollar condition hold. Then move to FF with different objects until they are ready to switch to bumpers then birds. Hold is just that, hold the object.Fetch is an action command, it means go pick that up now. I dont know if you have seen it, but you should watch the tri tronics trained retrieve with Jim Dobbs. Like someone else said, I would suggest you try the glove hand first on the next dog you do. Watch Dobbs video and follow. I find it makes transition to the buck faster an I really get to reward the dog for the proper hold. You know when he's gripping too hard.

put a carpet on that table. jeez help the dog out. wonder why he's timid? slipping and sliding around. Help the dog be successful

wtf, 1st of all you have the dog somewhere unstable, 2nd the dog could be hurt if it falls, 3rd the dogs focus is on to keep from falling, 4th you need to work on your basics which is the well being of the dog, then on the "hold" under better conditions. If the dog falls now you have a new problem to work with. I'm disappointed to see this 😞

this video is really teaching people "what NOT to do with dogs". It borders on cruelty to dogs.

This is just as bad as force fetching, I really do not get WHY people do this when you can teach a dog to retrieve in a happy way, superfast! Without force!

The way you avoid negative behavior associated with things they retrieve is by not forcing on things they retrieve. For example your wooden dowel. I strongly disagree that hold conditioning is superior to force fetching. Especially when your dog gets tired and refuses to pick something up. My dog continues to retrieve because of the trust we’ve built through force fetching. Force fetching has a lot of negative tone with it in the beginning but it builds a trust that hold conditioning can’t. Then again you’re using a silver lab as your demo dog. That’s speaks for itself.

This must be an old school method Pretty harsh

Terrible training. There is no need for this. Use positive reinforcement.

Yeah well "hold" is just the first step to force fetch. You must be making videos for the clicks. That dog will never comply!!! I've taught over 100 to force fetch. This will get you no where!!! Find a reputable trainer and watch him. I happens way faster and smoother than this piddling around. A real trainer takes control and the dog knows it!!!