HOLDING PATTERN ENTRIES, DO THEY MATTER? - flying instruments, IMC, IFR, CFII, IFR flight training

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In this video, we’re going to go over some of the finer points about holding pattern entries. Watch to see how I recommend entering a hold, and see what the FAA says.
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📝 Contents
0:00 - Intro
0:59 - Recommended entry procedures
1:51 - An Instrument Phase Check
4:20 - Following the pink line?
5:17 - Don’t just fly what Garmin draws
5:44 - Wrap up
- - - - - - - - - -

Опубликовано:

31 май 2024

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Комментарии : 80

@SorenHume 4 месяца назад

This is an awesome FINER POINTS teaching moment. I was, indeed, calling it "protected and non-protected side" and had no idea there was 4NM protected airspace on the non-holding side. I love becoming a better pilot with your comprehensive breakdowns, Jason

@TheFinerPoints 4 месяца назад

Thanks! Make sure to check out the Ground School app - so much gold in there 🙌🏻

@darrylday30 4 месяца назад

Yep, learning moment for me too.

@alk672 4 месяца назад

Well surely you didn't think the inbound course is not protected to the same extent any airway is protected?

@JustSayN2O 4 месяца назад

I was previously deluded into thinking likewise. Now i know better.

@jo5ef 4 месяца назад

... but _why_ did Garmin draw a teardrop?

@Rodhern 4 месяца назад

Purely (wild) speculation on my part. In some sense the teardrop entry is the more elegant choice that provides the most stable/well-established inbound track at the fix. With strong GPS track guidance you can basically pull off the entry for cheap. Whereas back in the day with a hold at an NDB the decreased situational awareness after the initial 'long turn' might be too expensive a price to pay(?).

@darrylday30 4 месяца назад

Count me in on the “but why?”.

@spencerelliott981 4 месяца назад

Because when you load the LVK ILS RWY 25R IAP, it creates the missed approach hold assuming you’re flying the published MAP, which in this case has you intercepting the OAK R-060 inbound to ALTAM, not going direct to ALTAM from somewhere south of the OAK R-060

@jeffd324 4 месяца назад

@spencerelliott981 is correct. the 750 is expecting the pilot to intercept the inbound leg before reaching ATLAM. Pressing the Direct To button and selecting ALTAM, the 750 would have updated the entry correctly. There are lots of nuances with these fancy GPS systems that you need to know before you are in actual IMC. My last IFR flight, I filed in GP, I filed the IAF as part of the flight plan. I loaded this into my 750 and loaded the approach I expected. ATC used a phrase like " turn direct " but hadn't cleared me. Instead of loading the approach, I hit Direct to. When I got to the IAF the 750 wanted me to circle back to the same IAF. Had I not had the IAF as part of the flight plan it would have sequenced to the procedure correctly. I now make sure the magenta arrow is below the approach bar as part of my checks before getting to the IAF.

@Ipadderx 4 месяца назад

This issue has been driving me nuts since I installed my Avidyne GPS. It does the same thing. In approaches similar to what you discussed I know it’s supposed to be parallel but the GPS would always draw and fly the teardrop and I thought, for sure, I’m going to be violated. This really really helped. PS. I flew as a safety pilot a few months ago with a guy who still doesn’t have a fancy GPS installed. He hand flew a parallel entry. Poor guy.

@BruceAirFlying 4 месяца назад

Figure 2-70. "Holding pattern design criteria template" on p. 2-49 of the Instrument Procedures Handbook provides a generic view of how procedure designers allocate protected airpsace around a fix to provide maneuvering room as you enter and fly holds. That's a better guide than Fig. 5-3-3 in AIM 5−3−8. Holding, which focuses on the key elements and names of the components of a hold.

@TheFinerPoints 4 месяца назад

Thanks for that Bruce, I'll check it out

@glennwatson 4 месяца назад

If you fly outside the U.S. at any point they are very much required. Pan Ops the icao version of terps assumes you’ll do a sector entry and hold (sector being your hold entry). They build their protection area different for entry into an approach and assume you’ll do the appropriate hold entry. An exception are rnav if you’re coming in a 180 degree capture region. So there is reason in the FAA pushing it.

@jimallen8186 4 месяца назад

One thing I like doing is drawing it how you normally do it on paper and beside it how you do it on the HSI and point out how they look backwards compares to each other. Then I draw it how you do on paper on a paper and flip the paper drawing the HSI over the paper way you see poking through the back. This way you can see it is actually the same thing, it is just from the other side of the coin.

@caiolinnertel8777 4 месяца назад

I'm a 30 year retired Air Traffic Controller (Washington and Atlanta ARTCC's) and a 47 year 12K hour commercial pilot. As a controller, we didn't care HOW you entered it as long as you stayed in the protected airspace. The protected airspace for any given holding pattern (varies depending on altitude, remember the speed requirements for holding at various altitudes?). As long as an airplane stayed within the protected airspace we were happy.

@thesecretsaint8178 4 месяца назад

This week while I was in the downwind a citation decided to do an overhead break, left into the left downwind. I had no idea what an overhead break was. I do now! It kinda made me mad though because I was slower and lower, I had the right of way. My instructor said I would have been ok even if I didn’t extend downwind for them.

@BrianSchiff 4 месяца назад

As always - excellent stuff!

@ScottWoodland 4 месяца назад

So that is interesting language as I work towards CFII, I learned long enough ago that I use protected vs. unprotected. The Garmin draws it, I was doing approaches working on an IPC and the CFII asked which way I'd enter a hold, and I said parallel, then they pointed to the 430, and sure enough it had a teardrop drawn in there, so I flew it that way. I didn't ask at the time why? But I should have. Thanks for doing this video, oh, and for dropping it on a Sunday morning while I'm sitting at my computer :)

@jimallen8186 4 месяца назад

In the given example, yes parallel makes more sense to enter the hold, but you’re not actually entering the hold, you’re using the hold entry as a procedure turn… as you’re going to be continuing on the approach, there is value to getting on the inbound course sooner hence why it may be advantageous to do the teardrop instead of the parallel. As you pointed out, you’re not turning excessively to do the teardrop. I hadn’t thought about it till looking and likely wouldn’t have realtime in a plane and likely would have done parallel but now I can see value here for teardrop. Better to deviate earlier from normal expectation so as to sooner be able to tighten and be set to be more precise easier and earlier later in the approach.

@Saml01 4 месяца назад

My CFI is also a career CFI and he beat the same concepts into me. Know why you do everything instead of just doing it. Especially around holds at low altitude and surrounded by terrain. However, I wonder why Garmin draws it the way it does.

@jakew9887 4 месяца назад

Great presentation. Thanks

@FlywithJim 4 месяца назад

Well done, Jason! Thank you for discussing "protected side" vs. "holding side." Excellent examples of some important finer points 👍

@FasterLower 4 месяца назад

My CFI taught me that the best rule of thumb was to take the join with the smallest turn angle. So in the example, paralell join involves a smaller turn than teardrop so go for the paralell.

@dojoswitzer 4 месяца назад

As a new VFR pilot watching this to get a little future insights, I have nearly no idea what you were explaining as better or not. Maybe consider a little more background to make the video more widely consumable?

@TheFinerPoints 4 месяца назад

Yes thx for the feedback this was definitely for more advanced pilots

@ivorevans1795 4 месяца назад

Possibly a gap in my understanding but the blue line in the hold you flew Jason looks like a parallel to me. Assume the blue line is the parallel version you flew not the tear drop the Nav device suggested? Tear drop is 30 deg offset to outbound course on entry yes? So tear drop - sometimes called offset - would have been a 105-30=75 deg heading as you passed overhead Jobus?

@prestonmiller9552 3 месяца назад

Jason, this is one of those things that seems too important for the FAA to simply make a suggestion. I have often wondered about why they haven't made firm regs to follow so that everyone is on the same page. It seems like in real IFR conditions, who knows who you might meet up with in midair because they have their own idea of how to enter a hold area. You did a good job of making it clear for me anyway. But I bet there are some out there yet who will say, "That's never the way I do it". Seems like a recipe for disaster because the FAA is only suggesting a way and not making it a standard. Our only savior might turn out be "Traffic in the Box" if we are in real IFR conditions.

@Anonymous99997 4 месяца назад

I cannot get out of my mind the incident a few years back where a student pilot was practicing flying the pattern. While turning from base to final, he was crashed into by a reckless pilot coming straight in at a ridiculously high rate of speed.

@jchowelljr 4 месяца назад

Thanks again Jason!! Very helpful…

@FireTruckTech22 4 месяца назад

It’s left turn and the book says. If the inbound leg is on the right side after passing it’s recommended to do teardrop. That what I read in the Sheppard book

@davidadrien4369 4 месяца назад

Super Informative!!!!!!

@daveperricone1052 4 месяца назад

It looks like Garmin drew a parallel entry even though the drawing has a “tear droppy “look to it. A tear drop entry would have taken a 30 degree left off the fix. Or am I missing something? But great teaching points, as usual!

@shanehunter9276 4 месяца назад

Jason, always great videos. Here is a question, and maybe it is more GPS tech involved but I think it may be worthy: In your example, there were non-standard L turns for the hold; IF this hold would have been standard R turns, the teardrop would have been the correct entry. So, that is the question really- Does Garmin determine the recommended hold entry based solely on the hold position, heading inbound to the fix, and your current position, irrespective of L or R turns in the hold?

@frazerpeterson2857 4 месяца назад

How about I finish my question. When will your IFR ground school be available?

@mmmmmmb7536 4 месяца назад

Intersting discussion. Learned loads. But what you missed is the discussion on standard holding patterns being Right hand turn and didn't mention an iota of thought that this was a non standard hold. How can you beat up your student about taking the Garmin recommendation and not giving you the mental orgasm for proper turns yet miss the finer point that it's a left hand pattern. Recommend going back and editing the vid.

@eds.173 4 месяца назад

Jason, have you talked to Garmin about this? Seems odd that they haven't addressed it.

@frazerpeterson2857 4 месяца назад

So when is your IFR ground school to prepare for the written?

@user-uo8gt7cc6t 4 месяца назад

Jason, thank for amazing content ! I was curious where the 8 mile and 4 mile protected airspace is derived. It’s not listed as such in the AIM. I have found another reference claiming : Holding is conducted in protected airspace that's determined by FAA TERPS Criteria. Holding patterns are established with a primary area (used for holding) and a secondary area (2NM wide perimeter around the primary area). TERPS uses a series of complex tables to determine how wide a holding area must be. Honesty 2 miles around the oval should be more than enough, wondering if you could shed light on this? Thanks, Benjamin

@mickbullerman4976 4 месяца назад

I was hoping to find a reference to the 4 and 8 mile statement as well. I’ve checked a few places but haven’t found anything. Hopefully you get a reply!

@skigolfmike 4 месяца назад

Good points. When I was in Northern VA, in a busy training environment, if we were entering the hold for an approach and another aircraft was in the hold we would do a teardrop instead of a parallel especially if the other aircraft would be heading inbound while we were heading outbound if we did a parallel on the reciprocal course. In actual, that never happens, but in high density training environments, it does.

@Joe-ef7sk 4 месяца назад

I would hope that you'd have altitude separation if you were both in the hold at the same time.. even in a high density training environment and in VMC, two aircraft in a hold at the same altitude seems like an unacceptable risk to me.

@skigolfmike 4 месяца назад

@@Joe-ef7sk usually happened with the CJR VOR-A. You had to deal with the IAD Bravo and the SFRA, so there weren’t a lot of options. Takes a lot of situational awareness.

@mnbrown25 4 месяца назад

When will you be a DPE?

@fishhisy 4 месяца назад

I had to make a 180 degree direction change to get into O69, I was cleared into the hold and I just flew the hold side and did a 360 and reported inbound, and the controller said, wow that was fast ok then.

@liquidintegrity 4 месяца назад

GPS is always a recommendation, it’s up to the pic to decide which entry to take.

@dakotakennedy447 4 месяца назад

Can someone link where it says 4 & 8 miles of cleared space for separation, it's not on that AIM page.

@catherinekilgour2563 4 месяца назад

Very interesting, non American pilot here, we call it traffic / non traffic side and make an over head join descending on the non traffic side to circuit height, crossing the airfield near the end of the runway to join mid downwind. Neither of the options you showed are taught where I fly. Left hand turns only within 10nm of the airfield unless a right hand circuit is being used (will be stated on the plate which runway has a right hand circuit if any).

@alk672 4 месяца назад

there is no airfield, it's a holding pattern around an arbitrary fix.

@cbav8r 4 месяца назад

Maybe I misunderstood, but @5:07 you say Garmin is drawing "a teardrop" implying it's displaying a teardrop entry instead of a parallel. That drawing is a parallel entry, not a teardrop. A teardrop would have left the holding fix at an angle and then turned back to the inbound leg.

@TheFinerPoints 4 месяца назад

The truth is we could not see the Garmin from the camera angle and showed FF instead to make the point - you don’t always fly what’s drawn just because it’s drawn

@tomdchi12 4 месяца назад

Is parallel safer than teardrop?

@bobbydoyle1345 4 месяца назад

Why didn't you as the simulated DPE, ask why not a parallel? Seems that perhaps this would have confirmed the knowledge. Did Garmin's calculated entry not follow the FAA recommendation, no actual headings were provided to check that?

@TheFinerPoints 4 месяца назад

Often, if you ask leading questions like that, it can trigger somebody to realize there’s a problem with what they said look at it a second time and make a correction. I was just moving naturally and organically, and then made the note to discuss it in the deBrief.

@YouNotACopJRied 4 месяца назад

A DPE once told me that he hates tear drops and used an example of is that tear drop worth the extra $35

@SoloRenegade 4 месяца назад

I use parallel or Direct entry pretty much all the time, rarely teardrop.

@Joe-ef7sk 4 месяца назад

Interesting.. I'm the opposite, I'll only do a parallel entry if there's no way a teardrop would make sense. I prefer teardrop because I intercept the localizer/inbound course in a more comfortable way, and farther out from the fix than I would in a parallel entry.

@SoloRenegade 4 месяца назад

@@Joe-ef7sk I have no issue with that. In my experience, students are better at forgetting the teardrop. By eliminating it unless it's convenient and easy to calculate, they don't get flustered trying to calculate the heading from some random holding radial. With parallel and direct the only time they don't have course guidance is on the turn reversal for the parallel. they can use the holding heading to dial in the course, and then just use that outbound for guidance. When I showed people this and had them try it, few stopped using the technique. I don't force people to use my preferred techniques, even if I think they are superior, as I know not everyone works the same way and different people find different things more intuitive. But I tend to teach the techniques that the vast majority find intuitive first, and then teach alternate methods to the remainder of people who prefer something else or struggle with my preferred method.

@xXx_SpaceAce_xXx 4 месяца назад

1:42 where can i find this information? ive been looking through doc 8168 vol 1 and 2 but couldnt find this specific piece of information

@Rodhern 4 месяца назад

In mine the illustration is in vol 1 section 6 chapter 1; and roughly makes up the entire chapter. Maybe I misunderstood the question?

@xXx_SpaceAce_xXx 4 месяца назад

@@Rodhern i mean, the exact information of the 8 nm protection area for holding side and 4 nm for non holding. Ill take a look on your reference, thank you

@Rodhern 4 месяца назад

@@xXx_SpaceAce_xXx Ahh ok. Sorry, cannot help you with that. I think ICAO asks that the area is large enough without specifying exact dimensions. The U.S. then decides appropriate standard dimensions (so that not every hold must be designed anew from scratch).

@xXx_SpaceAce_xXx 4 месяца назад

@@Rodhernthank you sir, thats what i imagined!

@spdrcr1010 4 месяца назад

I hope to be IFR by the end of 2024

@TheFinerPoints 4 месяца назад

Check out our instrument course coming to Ground School next week!

@hobie1613 4 месяца назад

Don’t just be a child of the magenta line!

@LTVoyager 4 месяца назад

That is called being a slave to the magenta line. All too common these days.

@Fly_The_Sky 4 месяца назад

Turn off the moving map if you don't want students to use it. Then they are forced to tell you what entry. But again, these are recommended entries, not required. You can not fault that pilot flying for his answer. If AP was on it would have done that same thing, you are flying to points in 3D space(where that space doesn't allow you to hit things)

@DanFrederiksen 4 месяца назад

The notion of loitering in airport space seems quite wrong to me. How you enter that mistake seems like a much lesser issue.

@craigsanders6925 4 месяца назад

You aren't loitering, you're flying a published hold while flying in IMC or simulated IMC and are under ATC control which is providing clear airspace around you.

@DanFrederiksen 4 месяца назад

@@craigsanders6925 I was under the impression that every strip has such a pattern, including small without ATC and it's used in clear daylight. I can see why they do it for practicing landings but that seems risky to me when it then disrupts other traffic. It seems to me that anybody practicing touch and go should yield far for any traffic in and out and not encourage close formation loitering. if it can at all be helped. I would say a touch and go should depart the airspace if anybody else is close to using the runway and only come back when it's clear.

@cbav8r 4 месяца назад

@@DanFrederiksenI think you're confusing a traffic pattern (around an airport) with a holding pattern. They are completely different things entirely.

@craigsanders6925 4 месяца назад

@@DanFrederiksen This is an IFR holding pattern after a missed approach, not a pattern at an airport. It's about 10 miles away from the airport at an altitude of 5000 feet. Are you a pilot?

@DanFrederiksen 4 месяца назад

@@cbav8r sure, fair enough but the issue is the same, isn't it. Arranging planes in the same space indefinitely.