Why doesn't the poem seem to rhyme in this performance? Don't get me wrong, the performance is beautiful, but I thought the whole point of the reconstructed pronunciation was because without it the poetic meter would be off. I do not know any ancient greek, but I am assuming even a non-greek should hear the rhyme at the end of every verse. This just sounds like someone talking in prose, not in rhyming poetry.
Well, rhyming is not a fitting word for it. This metre, the hexameter has, if I recall it well, 32 or 33 different variations. First of all the more long syllables the less clear is the perceivable regularity of the verse. Then you have the caesuras, sometimes more of them in one line, which interrupt the expected flow of text. People are used to a mechanical reading since schools insist on a strict rhythmic element so that students get the idea, but this is neither an exact nor a productive kind of knowledge when one tries to (kind of) perform the text.
@@Podium-arts I read your comment about 3 times slowly and didn't understand what you said. Whether something rhymes or not is dependent on the last 1-3 syllables in a verse. What you said seemed to be about the middle of the verse? I'm simply saying that if you read each verse in a consistent style with a clear stopping point, you should hear a rhyme. I did not hear a rhyme. I hope you are not calling this a mechanical reading because the whole point of rhyming poetry is to produce the rhyming sound at the end of each verse.
I have studied Ancient Greek for about 20 years, and this is the best vocal rendition of Homer I have ever heard. He makes all the distinctions felt, he represents digammas and iota subscripts, he expresses the meter of the hexameters, he distinguishes aspirated dentals, labials, and palatals from their non-aspirated counterparts. He does it all in a stately pace and tone that enables the listener to understand the text as he hears it. And to top it all off, it's easy to imagine the man to whom this voice belongs as the bearded blind bard himself! εὐχαριστῶ!
Thank you so much, Lionel. It's such a motivation for me/us to realise that there are people out there who can discern details under the "skin" of things. :-)
@@DTalesMatter I guess you're one of those (/us?), Greeks, that weren't ever taught in school that the/our Greek language was never pronounced the same as in antiquity.
The more I listen to this performance, the more I appreciate it. For at least 2700 years, Homer's epic poems have been recognized for their craftsmanship and beauty. The lines were carefully put together to fit a dactylic rhythm that would sound like music to the ear. When spoken Greek lost the distinction between long and short syllables (during the Koine period), the musical rhythm was lost. Generations since then recognized that ancients had admired the poem's beauty, but were unable to hear all that beauty for themselves. In the past several centuries, Ancient Greek has been pronounced as Modern Greek or in a number of regional "Erasmian" pronunciations--which end up being adapted to sound exactly like whatever the local language is (American English, Spanish, German, etc.). None of these attempt to reconstruct the syllable length distinction. When I listen closely to this reading, I can feel the rhythm of "long-short-short long-short-short" come back to life. (Sometimes a "long-short-short" will be replaced by "long-long"--often for intentional poetic effect.) We are hearing the restored full effect of the poet's craft--which has not been experienced by human ears since the end of the classical period.
True Greek "Dactylic meter" doesn't mean the same thing for classical Greek or Latin poetry as it means for modern western poetry. In modern poetry, we're talking about patterns of stressed and non-stressed syllables. Meter in classical Greek was made up of short syllables and long syllables--where long syllables take about twice as much time as short syllables. This is like quarter notes and half notes in music. Homer wrote in dactylic hexameter. Each line has six metrical feet. The first five are typically dactylic, where each has a long syllable followed by two short syllables. The last foot has two syllables, the first of which is long. A syllable is long if it contains a long vowel sound or ends in a consonant. The vowels ε and ο are always short. The vowels η and ω are always long. The vowels α, ι, υ will be long or short depending on the word. To make it easier to pronounce, they're sometimes marked with a macron if they're long: ᾱ, ῑ, ῡ. Two vowels together in a syllable are almost always long, but αι or οι at the end of a word can be counted short if needed. This happens with "μοι" in the first line. It's easier if I show an example. I'll put the symbols < > around a syllable to say that it is long and lasts twice as much time as the others. Note how the first 5 feet of line 1 of the Odyssey follow the pattern " short short." Watch for a long vowel, two vowels or an ending consonant in every long syllable. 1. δρα μοι 2. νε πε 3. σα πο 4. ρο πο 5. μα λα 6. λα Notice that if there's only one consonant between vowels, the consonant gets grouped with the following vowel--even if the following vowel is part of another word. (See foot 5 above.) It's possible for any of the six metrical feet to be replaced with a spondee, which is two long syllables. This happens in feet 1, 2 and 6 of the second line. Also, when one word ends with a vowel and the next begins with a vowel, the two often get combined into a single syllable. This happens a bit less often in Homer than other classical Greek poetry, because an unwritten digamma--sounding like an English "w"--is sometimes between the vowels. However, it does happen in foot 1 of line 2 below. 1. 2. 3. σ-ι ε 4. πτο λι 5. ρο ν-ε 6. There's some more complexity to it, but that's the basic story.
Layne Saltern Good summary of how classical meter works. There's one minor clarification I'd like to make. You have combined the "-θη ἐ-" of πλάγχθη ἐπεὶ into a single long syllable. The common practice here is pronounce "-θη ἐ-" as 2 short syllables. The technical name for this is "epic correption." This is a form of hiatus where a long ending vowel becomes short before a word beginning with a vowel. There are several examples of this in Homer.
Eppy Glottis I was thinking of prodelision, but now that you mention it, correption is a better fit. The wikipedia page on correption even uses that line as an example :). There are some lines where correption is the only thing that can make the meter work, for example the last two feet of line 26: οἱ δὲ δὴ ἄλλοι (long short short long-long). Prodelision would give us long short long-long, which dactylic hexameter doesn't allow.
Eppy Glottis it's a bit tricky to pronounce this case of correption in such a way that it doesn't disturb the metre and makes an audible difference of the phonemes [η] & [ε] that follow each other as well; in this place there's one more difficulty, because after πλάγχθη a new clause is beginning, which practically means a short pause between the relative phonemes - at least if one doesn't want to narrate like a train, which I don't like or believe is the way to be done...
@Mom Sheriff Yes I know and that's nice, but I've never heard anyone pronounce Ancient Greek properly, and Iived in Greece for 10 years. Most of the people I asked didn't even know that it used to be 'beta' and not 'vita', for example.
@Mom Sheriff What is your point...? Adam just said that the channel should record the rest of the work... Are you going to do it for us? Is your grandpa?
Ioannis, this is one of the most beautiful things I have ever heard. I am currently teaching myself Homeric Greek and yours is the only recording which seems to pronounce the words in accordance with what the academics now, mostly, recognize as the authentic pronunciation, including use of aspirated stops, pitch accent and the digamma. What is even more remarkable, however, is that you have managed to add your own artistic skills to the reading to bring it alive. It makes me almost feel I am back in the time of Homer. I know it is a great effort and will take a lot of time, but please complete a full recording of the Iliad and the Odyssey. It would be a great gift to art as well as for fans of Ancient Greek - I would buy copies and listen to them in the car, in my room, on the beach...
Thank you Vladimir, I'm happy you like it :-) The complete Iliad is been prepared. I don't have a release date yet, as another work has to be published first. Stay tuned ;-)
Your reconstrunction possesses the authentic and plausible sound that others lack. Namely, the fact that it can be imagined to have been spoken in real life, not being overly artificial or forced. Thanks for taking us back to 800 B.C.!
Thanks A.C.R., indeed, since most of the phonetic elements of the language are known, my aim has been (and is) to focus on the rendition in a "realistic" manner. The language and its dialects have been really spoken by humans, so, however scarce the information on actual speech might be, there are common things rooted deeply in human nature and expression -as well as others, particular to race, period, nation or culture- that spread some light into the question of reconstructing an ancient language. It is an interesting quest! Thanks for commenting :-)
Yes, to not consider this fact of its having been really spoken in time is, contrary to what one would think, absent from other endeavors to reconstruct pronunciation; or at least it seems that way. Thanks for the vid :]
He is using the restored pronunciation of Ancient Greek, the accepted form which unfortunately not many use for some unknown reasons. The stops are aspirated, as they should be. The iota subscript is pronounced, as it should be. Greeks today would say no, but that is because they learned it another way. Beta is beta, not veta. And a lot of other changes but too numerous. Also remember, even in Ancient times there were many dialects. Just look at Sappho or Herodotus. So the sounds could be pronounced numerous ways. We just have to accept what we hear, if we can understand at all. Great video and great pronunciation. Thank you for sticking with the classical restored pronunciation. I do have to admit sometimes though the un-aspirated stops are better in certain words where it is really hard for an English speaker to say. Such words starting with: φθ- for example.
+The Didaskalon 1)A Greek who learned it another way according to you, wants to inform you that your name is all wrong. The neuter noun "didaskalon" simply doesn't exist.. If you want to learn or teach the language you have to avoid basic mistakes! The teaching place is named "The didaskaleion" Το διδασκαλειον.2)If Βητα is Beta and not Veeta, then, which is the Greek symbol for the sound V?
+jim kiriakopoulos Answering your 2) comment. The V sound is not attested in ancient Greek. The closest equivalent is the digamma. It seems though, that in the Doric dialect of Creta this contemporary V-sound may have existed (in some words at least), as in words in other dialects containing the digamma, the Cretans wrote a B. I also don't know from which period these Cretan words come.
+Podium-Arts. How then, will you pronounce the Latin word Veneti in the Attic dialect since digamma doesn't exist any more? It is definitely Βενέτι because there is no other way. If again, you want to bring it back to Latin, according to this theory, it will be Beneti. What do you have to say about this?
+jim kiriakopoulos what about ου to reproduce the V sound in Latin? There is some debate about the pronunciation of V in Latin too, but it is quite likely that the reconstructed pronunciation (i.e. the non ecclesiastic one), where V is pronounced U, had been in use at some point and should be considered the "pure" Latin, as opposed to the "contaminated" (because of the contact with other languages in the provinces) version of it.
Extraordinarily magnificent! Its been a while since Ive listened to this and, as ever, Ioannis sounds like he's just been for a quick trip back to ancient Greece. Keep up this amazing work my friend; your talent is awe inspiring. I always feel spiritually uplifted after hearing your recordings. Thank you.
amazing work!! love the way the narrator "sang" the words, it felt very... alive. I would also like to have an entire audiobook with both the entire poems. hope that comes soon :)
Σκούπισε τα δάκρυά σου Στέλιο. Η γλώσσα μας είναι όντως ζωή, μα αν την προφέρεις (σε φυσιολογικούς ρυθμούς) κατ'αυτόν τον τρόπο... δεν θα σου μείνει πνοή.
@theodoredendromiris813 σε τί ακριβώς προσαρμοζόμενοι χάνουν τον τίτλο που τους επιδίδεται; Στα αμόρφωτα ψέματα ότι δήθεν οι αρχαίοι μιλάγανε όπως εμείς; Ευτυχώς υπάρχουν ντοκουμέντα από την αρχαιότητα οπότε οι σύγχρονοι αμόρφωτοι μπορούν να αυτό δοξάζονται στις προσαρμοσμένες δοξασίες τους. Εκεί να δείτε γέλια αγαπητέ Θεόδωρε!
Τι αποδείξεις το βη βη των προβάτων; Γιατί άλλο.επιχείρημα δεν έχουν και αυτό στερείται σοβαρότητας. Σίγουρα η προφορά αλλοιώθηκε στα Ελληνιστικά χρόνια , αλλά οι αρχαίοι δεν μιλούσαν με βαρβαρικούς υποτονθορυσμούς.
What a wonderful language. Even though I do not understand it, it is woven into the very fabric of European culture and the places and heroes (of thought and action) that are connected to it are instantly recognizable to any European. As a German, when I hear names such as "Hyperion" and "Calypso" they immediately conjure up an intimate landscape of ideas and places that feel very real even though I have only visited them on the wings of Homers imagination. Thank you for creating this.
What a lovely comment. I have studied German (I am a bit out of practice, that's why I don't reply to you in that language) and the syntax and the way of constructing sentences is so close to ancient Greek... If you have some background in ancient Greek and then you read a German text, everything "clicks" - it's uncanny!
Absolutely awesome. I would pay to have a recording + simultaneous text of you reading the entire Illiad or Odyssey this way. Please keep up the good work, and I was surprised to see that you were Greek and using the reconstructed pronunciation. Good on you.
gurufabbes1 thank you for your appreciation :-) When time allows I'll come back with audiobook and video recordings, I've been busy with the performance of Iliad-A lately. Actually it is my plan to release Homer's work when it'll be ready for it. Regarding the "other", yes, there are some Greeks that can read and understand that using a reconstructed pronunciation is closer than the modern one, but somehow it's not common and not peacticed at all (for the moment), which I hope to help change, for as much as it lies within my power.
Great, I look forward to more of your work. I subscribed to your channel. Feel free to like this page on facebook for the ancient greek language: facebook.com/pages/Ancient-Greek-Language/108467045860960 I think the author may have taken notice.
Absolutely enchanting! thank you so much. The first time I hear somebody respecting the value of ancient greek letters (especially the aspirated consonants).
Μπράβο! Ειδικός δεν είμαι,πλην όμως πιστεύω καθαρά από διαίσθηση,ότι η προφορά των αρχαίων δεν απέχει πολύ από αυτό που άκουσα. Κλείνοντας να πω,ότι το αστείο σε ορισμένα σχόλια,είναι πως κάποιοι πιστεύουν ότι οι Αρχαίοι Έλληνες ήταν υποχρεωμένοι να μιλάνε όπως εμείς σήμερα!!!
@@Podium-arts είμαι Έλληνας και ζηλεύω τον τρόπο που γράφεις και μιλάς την ελληνικήν γλώσσαν. Μακάρι να είχα ασχοληθεί (και εγώ και όλοι οι Έλληνες) τόσο όσο εσύ ώστε να γράφω και να μιλάω έτσι. Θαυμάζω τη δουλειά σου συνέχισε σε παρακαλώ! Καλή δύναμη !
Educated as a scientist I know neither modern nor ancient Greek. Anyway, I am touched by this truly artistic presentation. While listening to the words I follow the Greek letters, which I know from old-school mathematics. Doing so, the words, however alien to me, gain meaning helped by the given translation and my knowledge of the story. I feel as if being immersed into that ancient time.
Thanks Kurt for your poetic description of your feelings. I'm happy to read that my work can aesthetically enhance your reception of this little part of the story.
@@Podium-arts as a German to me it sounds as if an ancient Bavarian speaks Greek. The word θύρα just sounded exactly like the German word Tür and all the aspirated vowels are so familiar to a German native speaker. I felt like I could touch the common root of both languages. What's funny, I am also fluent in Italian and I feel like Greek and German have more in common than Italian and German or Italian and Greek,which is weird, if you think of the geographics.
Dear Helga, many people find that this pronunciation sounds "German" or "Nordic" and sometimes even "Japanese" or "Chinese" and everything in between. Funny that yesterday someone kept calling me "Fritz", unhappy as he is that this pronunciation doesn't sound "Greek" to him, but facts are facts if one wants to follow the ancient descriptions of the Greeks themselves this is how it (more or less) sounds. I believe that Greek (and Italian) got rid of the H's because of dialectic influence, since the ancient Aeolic and Ioanian spoken in today's Turkey were both avoiding the H's and Latin is related more to the Aeolian dialect. I would call it a kind of "orientalism", but all oriental nearby languages just keep their H's... So it is some peculiarity of sorts. But as philologists and linguists suggest, German and Greek (and almost all European languages) belong to the same family, whatever characteristics any one of them kept in common with the others. There is absolutely some good reason for this; the disagreement is on how this did happen, as people try to distill some added value for getting the glory that belongs to parenting this family :-D But I wouldn't be surprised if there has been more happening in ancient times than we all know. Julius Caesar for example wrote that certain regions in today's Switzerland spoke Greek or, as I remember from about 10-15 years ago, there has been an article in "Der Spiegel" about some artefacts (or even a whole Minoan ship? I don't remember well) buried in the sands of a North-Western German beach which some people stumbled upon by accident... Who knows?
I heard a rumor that a sample from the Iliad might be coming soon. I hope so. Your recordings are AWESOME! They not only sound great. The pronunciation accurately matches the latest phonological research regarding how Greek must have sounded during the classical period. (You already know this, of course. I'm just affirming it.) There are very few recordings that make use of everything we know today about classical Greek phonology. (Erasmian pronunciation is outdated and doesn't count.) Most of the few recordings that do exist were made by scholars who sometimes aren't the most talented voice actors. You've got both things going for you: accuracy and great dramatic performance. You are the real deal.
Layne Saltern Wow, my cheeks are getting red… Thanks for your appreciation :-) I'm now working again on Iliad-A but called some specialists around as well. Working all alone is not the most efficient way for producing a major work, that also needs a more "compact" but multilevel approach than I did until now. Though I've recorded the whole Iliad three times in total, I've not been satisfied with it yet. But it goes faster than I thought. I expect to present the 1st rhapsody over a month at the University of Athens and am working towards a staged recital, or a sort of theatrical production of it as well. I assure you that it is much work, but well worth the effort. Maybe even the non-specialist Greeks will reconsider their (unsupported) views of identification of ancient and modern pronunciation :-D And there's enough proof for my approach, especially within the ancient-Gr texts which, alas, are only known to specialists. This sort of human beings shun the "mainstream" and are, as usual, situated in the more obscure corners of relevant research. I suspect that they'll also enjoy a chance to come out to light from time to time... Thank you again.
May God bless the Greek language...the oldest surviving classical language...the lingua franca of the ancient world...once spoken from Spain to India...the language of science and arts, philosophy and literature...the language of the Holy Bible... the language that started the Islamic Golden Age and the European Renaissance...such greatness...
Υπέροχη ερμηνειά και εκπληκτική μουσική! Μέχρι πρότινος ήμουν αντίθετος με την επιστημονική προφορά. Ως μαθητής λυκείου σε Ελληνικό σχολείο, ούτε που μας αναφέρουν για την αρχαία προφορά. Διαβάζουμε Θουκυδίδη και Ξενοφώντα με την νεοελληνική προφορά και αν ακούσουμε κάτι τέτοιο (σαν αυτήν την αφήγηση), τρέχει η γλώσσα μας ροδάνι και μπορεί να ξεστομίσουμε οτιδήποτε. Κι όλο αυτό, επειδή δεν ξέρουμε. Όπως και να'χει, είμαι πεπεισμένος τώρα πια για την αρχαιοελληνική προφορά. Κι από την άλλη, σου δίνει μια άλλη αίσθηση. Κάτι αλλιώτικο, όχι τόσο μουντό όπως ο δυναμικός τονισμός της Νέας. Όμως όποτε πάω να προφέρω κάποιο χωρίο με αυτήν την προφορά, ή μου βγαίνουν τα πνευμόνια, ή δεν βγάζω άκρη για τι μιλά. Και επίσης, δυσκολεύομαι να παρακολουθήσω κάποιον που μιλάει κατ' αυτόν τον τρόπο. Τέλος πάντων, θα συνεχίσω να εξασκούμαι και θα δω και τα άλλα βίντεό σου. Συνέχισε την καλή δουλειά!
Podium-Arts Εγώ ευχαριστώ για την ταχυτάτη σου απάντηση και για τις συμβουλές σου τις οποίες θα ακολουθήσω πιστά. Ιδιαιτέρως τώρα που το καλοκαίρι έχω μπόλικο χρόνο, θα "στρωθώ" να μελετήσω και ελπίζω την ερχόμενη χρονιά να κορυφώσω τον βαθμό μου. Τα βίντεό σου με εμπνέουν πάρα πολύ και μου "φουντώνουν" περισσότερο την αγάπη μου για την πρόγονο γλώσσα μας. Να'σαι καλά και καλό καλοκαίρι!
SeadogDriftwood thank you for your appreciation! I didn't write the digamma, mainly because the surviving (late) text doesn't include it, but as I understand that you know, it must have been there when recited.
Podium-Arts I'm wondering which words you put the digamma in and how you did it. I'm assuming you did: ϝἴδεν, ϝἄστεα, Διϝός, ϝοἴκοι, ϝἔτος, ϝοἶκόνδε. But I was wondering about δῖα: do you think of it as διϝια or δῖϝα? And what about Ζηνὸς?
Brian McFadden I'm taking it as δίϝα and Ζηνός. I've set up a list of words containing the ϝ, but I've got no time to finish it yet, mainly because of moving to Athens and preparing a presentation (of the complete Iliad-A at a rather important place), that takes intense work. When I'm hopefully settled I'll come back to it.
Interesting. I've seen one book note it as δίϝια but this Indo-European scholar never claims it has digamma ever. Not sure if you've ever seen her work: www.indogermanistik.uni-freiburg.de/seminar/pers/tichy/pub.html
I know her by name and read some excerpts some time ago. They usually do nice work, but I can't place δίϝια. I suppose it's a (mis?)take for the iota of the word been often macron.
I know it must seem strange to speakers of modern Greek, but no-one questions the idea that Chaucer or Anglo-Saxon sounded VERY different to modern English, and that was not half as long ago as classical Greek or Koine. Greek words written by Romans of the time help with possible pronunciation of Greek, as do Greek spellings of Roman names help understand probable Latin pronunciation. It seems inconceivable that the array of Greek vowels all sounded the same in ancient times; why have them?
Exactly :-) An not only that; Dionysius of Halicarnassus even describes the production of the vowels (among others) in a different way each. There must be a reason... Also, what people don't realise is that (suppose the Greek alphabet came from the Phoenician syllabary, which had no vowel symbols), when the Greeks added the vowels there would be some simple logic behind this addition. Why e.g. didn't they add 7 extra vowels for the [e]-sounds, like they supposedly did for the [i]? Of course, some contemporary Greeks that they wrote the “i‘ in 7 ways, in order to indicate the etymology of words. But this is out of time BS. Before the use of [H] and [Ω] they used [E] and [O], which didn't happen with any kind of alternatives for the [I]... Very helpful in this respect is the ancient Greek definition of [orthography], quite different than the contemporary historical one. DIonysius even indicates proof of the separate pronunciation of the diphthongs (ch.24), both short and long.
I was in Ithaki last year and needed a needle. My modern Greek is not very good. I was in a shop, when suddenly I remembered the ancient Greek word Βελονη. I changed the beta to veta and the woman understood me! She then told me that it had never been pronounced with a B, but always with a V. Her husband was a professor, she said, and knew that the pronunciation of Greek had not changed in two thousand five hundred years. This seems extremely unlikely to me, an 'argument from authority' perhaps. I was extremely grateful for the needle and did not want to argue with the lady, so I left with my belone, beloni, veloni, or whatever it was, or had been.
Also this obsession with the modern pronunciation must have a reason, nothing exists without one... Sure, her man knew it for sure, but didn't tell anybody how he did :-D
The reasons might be lack of imagination, national pride after turkish rule, 'demotic' sentiments against the 'unnatural' katharevousa, inability to see change (because the letters are essentially the same after two thousand five hundred years). If I asked English people to read or speak Chaucer (700 years old), they would be disbelieving. If I asked them to do the same with Anglo-Saxon (1500 years ago), they would no doubt not even recognise the language. Contemporary Latin books give us an idea what the Koine may have sounded like. It's difficult to know things for sure, but people sometimes don't even want to look.How many people claim their island as the birthplace of Homer (if there was a Homer). Where IS Ithaca?
I think this linguistic ignorance is cultivated, or at least when an official language (+pronunciation) was established there has been a decision to concentrate only in this "modern" version, because mainly of analphebetism and the great variety in local mini-dialects. But to insist today is unacceptable...
The only guide I've ever had to pronunciation was Dr. Stephen Daitz CUNY (Rest in Peace). He did immense work in popularizing proper 5th Century Attic Greek pronunciation. Alas, his voice was not well suited for most people's liking.......this is beautiful.
This is the first I heard that Stephen Daitz had passed away. Some of his recordings could have been better, but I have to agree that he played a huge role in taking reconstructed Greek pronunciation from written theory to spoken practice. Some of the restored pronunciation advocates I've been following were at one time students of Dr. Daitz. One that comes to mind is Philippe Brunet, who studied under Daitz and has since been helping the reconstructed pronunciation to gain traction in his native France.
Agree, they would have spared so much time and effort by doing this very simple thing... A knowledgeable teacher once told me that they don't even dare to mention some things, so passionate is the reaction of the pupils. To speak it in class would be an even greater risk. Unfortunately. But we'll try to change all that. Thanks for commenting!
@@Podium-arts actually, a teacher of mine, had told us a few times at school, about the real pronunciation in ancient greeks, even how they wrote syllables in linear B.. but it was more like funfacts, than the point of the course. 😕 too bad, because those things are very interesting and really basic to understand the structure, while they wouldn't hurt anyone!!
Συγχαρητήρια γι αυτή την επίπονη και δημιουργική προσπάθειά σας . Αν έχω Α τάξη Γυμνασίου εφέτος ,θα αποτελέσει μια καλή αφόρμηση το έργο σας για να ξεκινήσω την Οδύσσεια. Σας ευχαριστώ και πάλι.
Τρομερά ωραίο ετούτο εδώ! Εύγε! και για την προσπάθεια και τον κόπο σου! Να ακούς την γλώσσα μας πως μιλούτανε τρεις χιλλιάδες χρόνια πριν, δέος!!! Έχω όμως απορία, είναι πιο κοντά στην κοινή μυκηναϊκή ή την αρχαϊκή γλώσσα η απόδοση; Με ποια περίοδο της ελληνικής ασχολείσαι; Σέ ευχαριστώ εκ των προτέρων.
Many many thanks to have come me back to that hera. Hearing that helps me to shut down the noise from the world (at least for a bit). It's like a psychedelics experience
Wow, I really liked this. I study Ancient Greek at school, and I had imagined it quite differently, but of course this is epos after all, so the general speaking must have been different in rhythm and intonation. I especially think the η has a pronounciation which surprised me. I also wanted to ask you a question: how long does it take you to make a fragment like this from the very beginning to the moment you post it on youtube?
Bas Ketelaar Dag Bas, leuk dat je in het oudgriekse bent geïnteresseerd :-) Normally people learn a rather mechanical way of reading epic, which for me is a bit unnatural. It is of course useful at a certain point, as a way of practicing recitation. General speaking is a bit different, but keeps the rhythm of the individual words intact (like in Dutch). The main difference is that you don't have a regular metric pattern, like in poetry. This fragment took me a couple of hours to produce, which is not the normal way I work. Maar dit was een spontane ingeving ;-) Als ik een compleet werk maak duurt het vrij lang.
ok, folks, just wanted you to know that this form of Ancient Greek wasn't meant to be used by effective speakers in everyday life. Homer's Greek is a literary and artificial language, used since the eighth century B.C. just for poems and literary compositions.
+Brenno Rubegni This is a broad take; maybe too broad. In terms of syntax because of the metrical needs of the hexameter, it is a literary & artificial language. On the other side, the words used and the seeming mixing of dialects doesn't make it artificial, because -as one theory says- if the poet was born/living in a busy port, like the one Agamemnon took sailing to Troy, it would plausibly give a dialectic mixture like this. Still, poetry is also ... spoken language, even in open air :-) Thanks for commenting
+Podium-Arts Lovely performance of reading such an important text to Western Literature! Congratulations for your beatiful achievement! I will indicate it to my studends!
This is gorgeous. Quick question though: is any attempt being made (anywhere) to come up with a melody for the Homeric poems? As far as I am aware they were sung, which is a key component of keeping oral traditions like this alive, so it seems logical to sing them. Presumably if we have the correct pronunciation it should fit to music well. Either way you’ve done a fantastic job. Thank you!
Thanks for your comment Eliza :-) I'm sure there have been people attempting to set Homeric texts in music, but don't know of any serious efforts to reconstruct a seemingly proper melodic line. I'm also experimenting with this since a couple of days (just got a kind of chelys to play with, trying things out). One of the people who've recorded a "melodised" version of some Homeric passages are mr. Hagel of Austria and mr. Philippe Brunet of France. You may find their stuff on the www. It's fascinating but I would do it in another way. Unfortunately there's no evidence around, so it's all rather the product of one's fantasy than anything else. Greetings :-)
Excellent selection of classical texts. Though I know it must take an enormous amount of work to put these recordings together, I hope we'll see more. It's a heavy burden, but when the muses have blessed you with the kind of talent you have, you have a responsibility to the world.
Have you ever thought of recording the most epic parts of Illiad and Odyssey this way (with music)? I think many people would buy it, even without sufficient knowledge of the ancient Greek language, because it sounds so damn epic.
Dear Sergii, never really thought of it. My aim is the complete recording of both + the hymns (in a way that I myself say 'yes'). It is my life's work, all the rest is a preparation for that. Yours is a perfectly good idea but if do that first I'd feel like a traitor of Homer :-D
It was interesting to listen to a slower reading, it has more πάθος. When I had to read it in class I used to concentrate more on the rhythm and it sounded more like a prayer or spell rather than a narrative poem
Ayame Kazekawa epic poetry must have been delivered in quasi-spoken form, metrical & rhythmical with its prosody but not sung. Ancient Greeks used to say "Homer's epics, Terpander's mele (songs)"; Terpander was according to tradition the first one to deliver sung Homeric works, so I suppose that Homer himself didn't do it likewise... For practicing reasons concentrating on the rhythmical part is very effective, but one has not to overdo it. I cannot imagine how Ion, in the homonymus Platonic dialogue, could describe the good and ill effects of a rhapsodic performance if these works were to be delivered with a dominant rhythm over a kind of narrative that approaches and accentuates the dramatic elements, however strange an art can be. In other works, I mean religious hymns that I'm preparing, the rhythmic element will sound more present, exactly because IMHO it does need this prayer/spell-like character, but I'm not sure it adds anything in an epic poem. Thanks for listening and commenting :-)
Σ᾽ευχαριστώ για την άποψή σου φίλε Podium-Arts. Επίσης, μπορείς να μου πείς εάν υπάρχει κάποια απόδοση της Ιλιάδος ή/και της Οδύσσειος σε Αττική διάλεκτο; Ερευνώ τον τελευταίο καιρό, αλλά δεν έχω βρεί τίποτα.
I'm sure they would look at me with perplexity, how can someone from the future speak so well :-D Joke aside, I just follow what instructions are left in surviving ancient writings. I hope I'm a good copyist
Do you have the exact link for the music? I can't seem to find it online. 😢 The image, music, and the narration kind of takes to you to the epic. Thanks for sharing!
The music is by Vangelis Mertzanis, who used to have a YT channel. I saw that his CD "Odyssey" is available on various Greek webshops. You can google "βαγγελης μερτζανης Οδύσσεια" and it should show up.
It's a lovely reading, thank you for uploading it. One small factor, for me, hoping to learn ancient Greek pronunciation, because I will need to restart many times, it would be nice to have a video without introduction, so I can easily return to the first word. Great though, all the same!
Anaformia abalatus dispositium. Actually you can do this by clicking at the timestamp ("text start") which is under the viedo, in the description area...
This is incredible, I just finished reading the E.V. Rieu English translation and it was beautiful but hearing it recited closer to how it would have been told thousands of years ago gives me goosebumps
same feeling here; the older sounds have something direct, going to the bone; but I'm talking about trying to reconstruct this older language form. Thanks for listening :-)
Γεια σας! Συγχαρητήρια για το βίντεο! Θα ήθελα να μου διευκρινίσετε κάτι• επειδή οι πηγές στο διαδίκτυο διαφέρουν σχετικά με την προφορά τον και , πότε παρίσταναν έναν δίφθογγο /ei/ και /oi/ και πότε ένα μακρό φωνήεν /e:/ και /o:/; Επίσης, γνωρίζουμε την προφορά του με ακρίβεια (και ειδικότερα για την Αττική διάλεκτο);
Hello, this is a very interesting interpretation of the ancient greek language and certainly the most interesting I have come upon. I would thus like to ask a question if you may. Why is the pronunciation of "θ" as "t" and why has it become common that we changed so many pronunciations of letters in the modern greek?
Hi TS, thanks for listening :-) Well, the Θ is not exactly a T sound. It starts with it and then a puff of air is following it, hence its representation by writing TH in other languages. (Similarly the X was written as KH and Φ as ΠΗ in Greek and elsewhere). With time it changed, like some other ones, I believe (and notice myself when speaking/reading/reciting) because of the shortening of the long vowels. You see, if while speaking we use systematically, and not only incidentally, long vowels we need "support" for them. That's because longs and H's let more air escape from lungs & mouth. Which changes the syntax and number of words in the cola & sentences of the spoken dialect. A "hard" pronunciation, that is "momentary", helps spare some air and don't get out of breath. When vowel quantity (duration) was systematically shortened all the β,γ,δ's and φ,χ,θ's followed, gradually changing to what they now are in modern Greek. There are some indications in Ancient Greek dialects that locally a B might have been pronounced as V etc, but this was not the normal general use, at least in official language and following the extant descriptions of grammarians. The vowels took a road of their own too. But this is another story.
Homeric Greek was more similar to Sanskrit than to modern Greek. In India some can still speak fluent Sanskrit, very fast and natural. It will be interesting to play this recording to them.
πριν από 0 δευτερόλεπτα Νομιζω με τα γερμανικα η αρχαι ελλ.γλωσσα ειναι πολυ πιο κοντα απο τα σανσκριτικα η αβεστικα γιαυτο τις χωριζουν σε Kentum kai Satem γλωσσες,η ελληνικη ανηκει στην Kentum hekaton,=hεκατον,>(Kentom,)
ПЕСНЬ ПЕРВАЯ Муза, скажи мне о том многоопытном муже, который, Странствуя долго со дня, как святой Илион им разрушен, Многих людей города посетил и обычаи видел, Много и сердцем скорбел на морях, о спасенье заботясь [5] Жизни своей и возврате в отчизну сопутников; тщетны Были, однако, заботы, не спас он сопутников: сами Гибель они на себя навлекли святотатством, безумцы, Съевши быков Гелиоса, над нами ходящего бога, - День возврата у них он похитил. Скажи же об этом [10] Что-нибудь нам, о Зевесова дочь, благосклонная Муза. Все уж другие, погибели верной избегшие, были Дома, избегнув и брани и моря; его лишь, разлукой С милой женой и отчизной крушимого, в гроте глубоком Светлая нимфа Калипсо, богиня богинь, произвольной [15] Силой держала, напрасно желая, чтоб был ей супругом. Но когда, наконец, обращеньем времен приведен был Год, в который ему возвратиться назначили боги В дом свой, в Итаку (но где и в объятиях верных друзей он Всё не избег от тревог), преисполнились жалостью боги [20] Все; Посейдон лишь единый упорствовал гнать Одиссея, Богоподобного мужа, пока не достиг он отчизны. Гомер, "Одиссея" (перевод В.А. Жуковского)
As a Greek I am always saddened to see people bashing wonderful recordings like this. Many elements that have contributed toward reconstructions like this are pretty well attested. For example the pneumata, the meaning of perispwmene, the accents. Of course the specifics will never come to light! Greek nationalists would be less vocal, if they knew how much Erasmus was inspired and guided by the Greeks coming from Constantinople. It is a shame to attack people like this, who have poured their life into the study of our ancestors. They are our true brothers, ΝΗ ΤΟΥΣ ΘΕΟΥΣ! By the way, what reconstruction exactly is this? The Erasmian from my grandfather’s generation sounded much more German :D
You speak wisely, o! stranger. Thank you :-) Alas, not many contemporary Greeks have a clue of what their ancestors wrote about their own pronunciation. There is some history behind this cultivated ignorance, that has to do with a decision of the proper ministry at the end of 19th century, beginning of the 20th. They saw that having a common pronunciation would strengthen the cultural unity of the still young nation state, so the special advisor of the minister, the linguist Chatzidakis was his name, proposed "not to bother the young with a correct, albeit different pronunciation at school", considering that at that time almost every village had their own minor dialect and pronunciation and unalphabetism was going strong. Not a bad attitude in practical terms for those times. Of course today this is not the case any more and one should go on and tell the people how it exactly stands, something that progressively happens already at Greek schools, but the public still isn't conscious of the consequences. It is bizarre that contemporary Greeks believe that the characteristics of the reconstructed pronunciation is an attempt of "dark forces" trying to destroy the Greek language by propagating corrupt and foreign pronunciations :-D The reconstruction I'm using is the product of my own study (33 years already and going on) of at first ancient sources only, which later I compared with any other studies I could come across on the way. Of course, it doesn't need mentioning, that the basis of any reconstruction has to be modern Greek and its dialects and wherever evidence points to a difference in forms one has to take them seriously.
Thank you for your very informative reply. I, too, was once opposed to other pronounciations, such as erasmian, which my grandfather and uncle used, because it sounded too alien. At school (which I finished around 2000) I was never taught one bit of pronunciation. It wasn’t even mentioned that ancient pronunciation was different from Modern Greek. But there comes a time when everyone realises it must have been. Your beautiful recording was the best motivation I ever had for taking Ancient pronoucuation seriously. And it brought tears to my eyes.
It wasn't my intention to bring my listeners to tears, but this comes to mind, as Plato writes in his dialogue "Ion": «...καθορῶ γὰρ ἑκάστοτε αὐτοὺς ἄνωθεν ἀπὸ τοῦ βήματος κλάοντάς τε καὶ δεινὸν ἐμβλέποντας καὶ συνθαμβοῦντας τοῖς λεγομένοις. δεῖ γάρ με καὶ σφόδρ᾽ αὐτοῖς τὸν νοῦν προσέχειν· ὡς ἐὰν μὲν κλάοντας αὐτοὺς καθίσω, αὐτὸς γελάσομαι ἀργύριον λαμβάνων, ἐὰν δὲ γελῶντας, αὐτὸς κλαύσομαι ἀπολλύς.» :-D
@@ludi6597 Έλεος! Από πότε είναι προαπαιτούμενο να είναι κάποιος εθνικιστής για να εκφέρει την γνώμη του σε θέματα που αφορούν την γλώσσα; Οι τύποι που αντιδρούν έντονα στο άκουσμα αυτής της προφοράς έτυχε απλά να μην έχουν ενημερωθεί ποτέ σοβαρά ως τώρα για αυτό το ενδεχόμενο και όπως είναι λογικό και αναμενόμενο, παθαίνουν σοκ. Αυτό φυσικά δεν σημαίνει σε καμμία περίπτωση ότι είναι.. εθνικιστές, φασίστες, δωσίλογοι, ταγματασφαλίτες και τα λοιπά συνεπακόλουθα παρατράγουδα! Δεν γίνεται μονίμως να τα ισοπεδώνουμε όλα εννοιολογικά σε αυτήν την χώρα. Πρέπει να υπάρχει και μία κάποια λογική συνέπεια σε αυτά που γράφουμε. Οι συγκεκριμένοι τύποι είναι ανενημέρωτοι, δεν είναι… γερμανοτσολιάδες. Ανοίγουμε και κανένα λεξικό να δούμε τι σημαίνει η λέξη Εθνικισμός πριν αρχίσουμε να γράφουμε αρλούμπες. Τις οποίες αρλούμπες φυσικά τις γράφουμε με κουτοπονηριά στα αγγλικά, διότι είμεθα και σαΐνια και απευθυνόμαστε και σε κοινό του εξωτερικού. Τέτοιες μπούρδες γράφετε ορισμένοι και μας εκθέτετε διαρκώς στο εξωτερικό ότι είμαστε φασιστικός λαός.
Wait... This is strange. I'm serbian and i started learning modern greek before few months, i can just read anicent greek, and I probably understand this.
there are of course some things different between modern and Ancient Greek, but it remains the same language. The greatest differences are the reading/speaking of diphthongs, long vowels are gone in modern and there are almost no fricatives in ancient, though in modern there are many. I'm wondering what your experience will be when you progress in the modern form and listen back to the rendition of the ancient one. Thank you for listening :-)
This seems really, really weird, but I imagine this is the way Swedish sounds to foreigners. It has the same "melody" as swedish, and some of the same rolling r's and blowing sounds.
there are more listeners who said something similar. For me it's not so strange, since Scandinavians speak in the so called "melodic accent", like the ancient Greeks did. The rolling R is as always present in Greek language and the "blowing sounds" are the "spiriti asper" (δασεῖα, πνεῦμα δασύ) or the "aspirated consonants" (δασέα σύμφωνα) of the ancient language, that nowadays are pronounced as fricatives. I wouldn't call it "weird", just unusual... Well heard my friend :-) Thanks for listening.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this! Studied a bit of Swedish in uni but don't have any background in Greek, listened to this and was a bit blown away!
Podium-Arts yes perhaps. I don't know, I'm getting a distinct North-European vibe. Apart from the slow pronunciation, things like the Scandinavian-Old English-Germanic "ü" sound. Also, the voiceless alveolar or denti-alveolar sibilant which Dutch people cannot pronounce and turn ever so slightly into a voiceless alveolar retracted sibilant or even a voiceless palato-alveolar sibilant. Basically what gives away Dutch native speakers of English when they are unable to pronounce words such as "Sin" and "Father" and turn them ever so slightly into "Shin" and "Fa-sher". Anyhow, there are these little elements to my ear which deviate from (modern) Greek, which is sharper, and harsher overall than the smooth pronunciation here. How sure are we that the pronunciation of Homeric Greek deviated this much from (modern) Greek? It's not heavy, but enough to be noticeable to a pentalingual. I've always gone with Gregory Nagy's readings, which sounded more in line with what I expected of Greek. Would love to hear your opinion. Anyhow great job, thanks for the vids :)
Many listeners have commented on this "Northern vibe", which I believe has to do with what we are used as more "Mediterranean". Not only because of the [ü] but also the φ,χ,θ aspirated consonants which today have become fricatives and are only to hear in colloquial interjections. Also the longer vowels are not present in modern Greek anymore, while they are in the North of Europe, might contribute to this impression. About the addition of sibilants in Dutch, yes it's noticeable, but I don't have it, since it's not my mother tongue (and don't find it so "beautiful" to imitate myself in everyday speech). I believe that Homeric & classical Greek was different than modern in many traceable respects, the most important been the "loss" of vowel quantity through the centuries, that to my feeling is pivotal to all other changes. You see, it's easier to pronounce even ancient GR texts with the modern pronunciation if you don't observe the vowel length than when you do. The (ancient) rhythm of words & sentences needs a very different distribution of breath and speaking-energy than that of modern Greek, which by itself cannot go with the many fricatives of today's Greek. Nagy's (respect to him for his great & tireless work!) pronunciation I'd call elementary, but I don't think he really cares much about pronouncing in a polished way. That's my opinion for the very little I've heard of his reading... His talent is somewhere else :-)
Podium-Arts I agree, yes that makes sense. Vowel lengths are overlooked by many I believe. Just out of interest, what nationality are you? What is (are) your native language(s)?
@@Podium-arts with a quick search, this person impersonates a voice actor who usually dubs elderly characters in kids shows. He's quite close to a traditional way of speaking though the context is a bit random. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-xLLq7tCRWbc.html
@@DrxSlump after listening to him I agree that there are some striking similarities! Also because I was also supposedly impersonating an old person. Of course this isn't the voice I use normally or for TV advertisements :-D Thanks for the link.
Thanks! Part of the appreciation for these uploads are the comments which have high comedic content. Assertions eg., Greek sounded exactly the same 3000 years ago as it does today!! (Yeah, this is a funny post but there are some who are posting this drivel). Generally, posters going ballistic on pronunciation have no notion that there were at least 5 major Greek dialects in the Age of Homer - from a lot of evidence, we can conclude accents for each diverged greatly, maybe, on the scale Cork/Kerry/Dublin/Belfast/Glasgow/London Cockney. One poster (on another nice upload) asserts knowing the pronunciation is BULLSHIT because he's Greek and studied Ancient Greek in high school. Anyway, as no one is injured in the making of these videos no problem. Greece eternal, Greece forever.
+Emma Maton ... we all keep learning, (even he might decide to learn something crazy), but fortunately we all have our portion of something, one great, the other less
Ancient Greek is difficult, in my opinion, not because it is more complicated than other languages - which I think it's not - but because one cannot learn it like any other language. Since, for various reasons, there has been no audio material for it, one is confined to written sources. Probably anyone trying to learn a language from paper (or screen nowadays) will face the same degree of difficulty. This is a problem I'm trying to solve within my means in the most accurate way possible...
