I actually had a conversation with my old man (80yo) about this and related things when I bought my Triumph Tiger 800 a few years back. Where alternatives where Japanese or German Adventure style tourers. He said when going to buy motorcycles or sport cars, bring half your brain and your whole heart. Things like build quality sometimes have to take a back seat, or no one would buy a Ducati or a Ferarri (He was driving Ducatis back in the day where the where know for break downs.) He argues if everyone looked at resale value and quality everyone would ride a 300ish immortal Honda.
That's very true .. we all need to take a chance sometimes ...mind you I don't see quite the same temptation to buy a CF Moto as there is a Ferrari !! ( or a Ducati for that matter ) .. Thanks for comment 😊
Agree with you comment completely, not sure about Hondas being immortal..... my RE Shotgun 650 now has 469 miles on it, that's 140 miles more than my 23 plate cb500f had on it when it broke down (engine temp sensor failed)! Took me a few weeks to get back my faith in it when dealer returned it to me, but it's been fine ever since. Bought Shotgun because I wanted another RE.... simple as that. 👍
Hi David, I have a Honda CL500 23 model which cost £6000 new 1600 miles on the clock. Trading it in for a new NX500 I was offered only £4000 from my local dealer and £3500 from superbike warehouse. So its not just Chinese and Indian bikes that the value go's down toilet
I agree the CL has not been a great seller and it's residuals are low ... you are quite right. It is not typical of Honda's in general though. As for the Superbike Warehouse ... lets just say they are the "pile it high and sell it cheap" of the motorcycle world. If I was to try and sell my bike now I would try selling privately without question ... (bare in mind both the bikes in the vid were private sales so imagine what a trade in offer would have been !)
@@tpc8556 I bought a £4k brand new bike in 1997 and was offered £1.5k after a year. It's not a new thing. I sold it to a friend that way my loss was there gain
I bought a demo bike from a dealers , I was downsizing ,it is a Chinese built Suzuki DL 250 V STROM , saved 1,100 on list price . Only for the fact it had 900 miles on clock , I would have thought it had never been ridden . It was mint condition & engine still fairly tight . I was a bit weary when told it was a demo ,but the dealer assured me it had been run in properly , & they only allow supervised demo rides . I have been riding motorcycles new & used for over 50 years & could tell ,by the way the engine felt , that the bike had been run in properly & not abused . To be honest I never heard of anyone having issues with demo bikes or cars, when purchased from a known reputable dealer ,whose been in the business a long time . As to the subject of Chinese bikes & depreciation on used market , I reckon unless they are Chinese Japanese badged bikes , they are best kept as long term bikes , if people are that bothered about used or trade in prices being lower. My Chinese Suzuki is just as well built & reliable as any Suzuki or Honda I have owned new or used since 1971 . I see no reason why bikes produced by the higher end Chinese factory’s in the last few years shouldn’t be equally as good . Also most modern bikes ,contain at least some Chinese manufactured components , some even Chinese built engines & many high end established brands like BMW , Honda , Yamaha , Suzuki & others source complete motorcycles from China .,
I agree some demo bikes do get a perfectly good start to life, especially bikes that don't attract the more "enthusiastic" tyre kicker types ! Thanks for the comment😊
@@WyreForestBikerAt the end of the day ,a good responsible dealer , eventually has to sell the demo bikes & give a reasonable warranty . They don’t want you having issues , as they have to fix them ,& they also want you to purchase your next bike there , plus they are hoping you recommend their dealership to other potential customers . 👍
It's surprising how often people buy new bikes, or cars for that matter. I tend to buy new and expect to get at least ten years out a machine, or buy an older quality model at the bottom of its depreciation curve, and run it until it goes bang. There's no such thing as a perfect bike, so the grass-is-greener thing passes me by.
Hi David, I think the road closure signs are advanced warnings of surface dressing, that wonderful tar and chippings we motorcyclists love (not at all) so be mindful on your next trip to the cafe. I really enjoy your channel and I think 15 to 20 minutes is about right, ride safe my friend.
15 to 20 mins is good . Depreciation on Chinese junk will always be high . There is a trend at the moment to jump on the Chop Fuey bandwagon . Quite a few vloggers have gone that route . No doubt they had special deals to promote the bikes . The shepherd knows that sheep will follow a goat . I won't put Chinese bearings in my bikes , I can't think of an instance where I would want to ride a bike where every bearing and component is Chinese ! There is also the dilemma of profiting on the misfortune of others and China has an appaling human rights record . Which , to me at least , are major factors in avoiding intentional purchase of Chinese products . Some people don't care and I call them budgerigars because when asked why they bought Chinese bikes will say " cheap , cheap , cheap " . RyanF9 has a new video out where he makes a good point about Japanese industry vs Chinese copycat manufacturing . I won't spoil it for you by telling you his conclusion . My advice to anyone is to read The Art of War by Sun Tzu and then you will understand what China is up to .
@@volt8684Huge difference between Japan and China in terms of fair global competition, IP protections, environmental, and worker standards The Japanese embraced the teachings of Deming to improve quality and consistency. American and European manufacturers had same opportunity and were too fat, dumb, and happy. If you think China has same attention to detail think again. It is all cultural and while China can make electronic goods with easier to maintain processes representing products that sit stationary in your house or auto well protected from the environment.. That is nothing like vehicle/mechanical design and machining processes.
i know its not a bike as such but i recently bought a Sym jet x scooter (Chinese). 5 months and 2500 miles later i felt i wanted to upgrade, so a Honda forza i like popped up and i asked the dealer about P/X. He asked what i had and pretty much told me he would offend me with his offer of £1650, i paid 5 months ago £3300 new for a 24 plate. The guy even said im lucky as he usually doesn't deal with Chinese bikes and only reason he was is because it still has warranty which is 1 year 6 months. I know i could probably get £2000 but its the messing around and tire kickers so I've traded in towards the forza 125cc. next time i wont be buying new Chinese second hand is probably the way to go as along as the bikes been serviced with receipts to prove. oh my sym also had new Michelin tires fitted as the ditch finders from new was rubbish so that's another financial hit but ill learn for in future.
Congratulations on passing 1k subscribers. CF Moto manufacture for KTM and others. They're coming, depreciation is a fact of life but they're offsetting it by producing very well spec'd, low priced bikes and the quality has improved and isn't far behind the leading brands, who charge considerably more. Love the long rambles, don't start editing too much.
Thanks Simon , you are right they are coming regardless .. I will vary the length of video's so some long rambles to come 👍...starting this coming week
Hi David, I have just purchased a CF Moto 650 pop to Midwest-Moto Stourport and ride the demo 650 Mt be lovely to hear your comments for the money they're well worth it with a 4 Yr warranty I've just watched Bret tracs and lots of makers use Chinese parts... and made in different country's, I had a Suzuki GW250 a 13 plate I sold it 4 years ago now 8,000 + miles on the clock and it's passing every mot and that was made by Haojue Suzuki China.
Depreciation has always been a major factor especially with Chinese bikes. If you're the sort of person that likes to swap bikes every couple of years (or earlier) then you are going to take a massive hit even with mainstream brands but even more so with Chinese brands. The way you get the full value out of Chinese motorcycles is over the long term. My personal experience is with a Lexmoto scooter which has proved very succesful during the nearly 8 years I've owned it. I bought it new and I've serviced it on a regular basis. It has been washed down and sprayed with GT85 again on a regular basis. If it went bang tomorrow it wouldn't owe me anything. It was my ride to work bike when I was working but now it's my shopping and local errand bike saving my bigger bike from short journeys. With regards to vlog time, I like 15 - 20 mins with reviews about 30 - 40 mins.
That's great service you had from the Lexmoto scooter , just shows they can last and be reliable . On the other hand I've heard lots of horror stories from Chinese scooters so maybe it's a bit of a lottery ? ... Thanks for the comment👍
@@WyreForestBiker I feel that the Lexmoto scooters need more TLC than a Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha scooter. The trouble is a lot of the Chinese scooters are bought because they are cheap but don't get looked after, not getting regular servicing and anti corrosion treatment. The quality of the more recent Chinese bikes has come on leaps and bounds but the old reputation is going to take a long while to change and this will affect what the bike is worth, Remember Skoda jokes in the 80s and 90s? There are no Skoda jokes now
In terms of pricing, I buy salvage, and a lot of the sellers are expecting full retail for dead bikes. Chinese bike values do somewhat vary with the competence of the importer. Getting spares are a bloddy nighmare for them. Whereas, for example, AJS is absolutely on it for customer backup and their machines seem to do well on value retention. CFMoto make KTM and therte is a lot of cross pollenation, so we shall see!
That's interesting , makes sense for the buyers of salvage availability of spares is such an important factor it will heavily effect values. CF Moto have some seriously cheap bikes on offer so they will sell without doubt ...time will indeed tell . Thanks for commenting👍
Hi Edward , yes as the owner of a green CL 500 I do tend to agree!...green suits the off-road rugged look well . I thought both were good looking machines though.😊
It's fascinating to see videos of the English rural roads and to marvel at just how narrow they are. Trees grow right to edge of the roadway and hedges and stone walls are often only 2 meters from the roadside. Absolutely no run off area at all. Here in Australia the landholders are required to mow a considerable distance back from the roadside to ensure public safety. Only "C" class roads are as narrow as the one you traveled and often unpaved. The "run off" area or verge is as wide as the roadway on each side of that roadway. Your road carnage must be horrendous because motorists have simply nowhere to go in an accident situation. Lovely and green though but hellishly dangerous by our standards. Liked your video lotts.
Thanks John , really interesting to hear how you see our roads. Of course it all stems from the fact they have evolved from roads used by horse and carts , and the hedges and walls are often many century's old ... you lot are spoilt for space !!😊 Thanks for watching .👍
Video length. My prefered length is 15 20 min. The Chinese conundrum ? I think CF MOTO can buck the trend for a couple of reasons. The input and acquisition by KTM and that they don't deal with the 125cc market. The CL 500 as we know is Honda which we assume is manufactured in Japan, but is manufactured in Thailand. I just wonder how many percieve this as a good or a bad thing. The Enfield as a collectors piece is far fetched to myself. Anyone who really wants a collectors piece would want one built in Redditch. The CF MOTO I would consider though. Most electrical stuff is made in China, computer, phone, power tools and most don't bat an eyelid. At some point they will be accepted, remember the Japanese bikes in the 1970s were looked upon with derision, yet now are looked at as a quality item. CF MOTO is at that point now IMHO.
Interesting points Gary ...Thanks. I have no doubt Chinese products will improve ,in fact it's inevitable. I always draw a distinction between factory's owned and run by a manufacturer in a country and the country's home made products ( ie Hondas many worldwide factory's ). I have to deal with Chinese tools being returned every day in my job ... many are still shockingly bad and some downright dangerous, Only yesterday we had a industrial strimmer that's head sheared off and nearly hit someone, the replacement failed in the same way within moments of the customer using it. We had to issue a country wide recall immediately . I could recount a dozen similar stories and have friends in other industries with similar experiences .
@@WyreForestBiker a few years ago I would not have even entertained the idea of owning a Chinese made bike, but a couple of Chinese manufacturers are turning the tides on that train of thought, CF MOTO are one of them. They have collaboration with KTM and Yamaha especially in the engine department. I think that there are many tiers to Chinese manufacturers, the very cheap, the semi passable stuff and the it's up there with mid tier Japanese and European manufacturers. For myself CF MOTO is in the latter, and worthy of consideration.
Far from being wrong David, you are spot on - a video on RU-vid last week was showcasing the said Benelli, silly low prices were displayed and then at the end of the video, the commentator said they had just been told by the importers another grand had been chopped off! Wasn't that a cheap irresponsible attitude to take by the importers? One bike that totally bucks all this cheap Chinese chatter is the BMW C400 scooter, totally made by Loncin, but you pay through the nose for an extremely excellent piece of engineering!
I am quite shocked at the fall in prices of motorcycles....i keep a very close eye on the prices and nothing is moving really unless its Very cheap ....even classics are falling through the floor ....something is happening. .im not sure where this is going ...but it doesn't look good !
insurance maybe? thieves ? people are probably sick of seeing bikes getting stolen with the police doing nothing to stop it. As for insurance I'm just starting out on 2 wheels a scooter to insure for a 28 year old 125cc on cbt i was quoted £2000 plus, i managed to get insured for £800 but only one company was that low. So new riders are getting put off and ive heard people who have passed the test and got a big boy license recently are getting the same treatment of sky high insurance or just cant get insured. Also so many people are wanting rid of the bikes as the state of driving in recent years has declined massively and they no longer feel the risk is worth it so everyone is probably trying to undercut the next person and prices are going down with no new buyers.
20 minutes is a good length on your usual route. If you were giving us a tour of say the Malvern hills 30 minutes or so would be fine. I've avoided a Chinese bike for now as a Royal Enfield dealer close to me put a 2023 classic dark in black 350cc with 361 miles on it up on their web site which I look at almost daily. £3399, lovely price so I put a deposit on it. I'll get it in a few weex after a service.
David, your videos are very easy to watch. I found this one at 15 minutes was over just as I was settling in to it. I guess it depends on the subject matter, too. I sold my last bike a few years ago, a DR650SE I had for 9 years from new. I paid $8K new (AUD) and sold it with 40K (kilometers), no registration and in need of two tyres, yet I still got $4K. I've been looking at the Honda GB350, primarily for the same reason I had the DR, because they both use screw adjustable tappets. However I'm not convinced the 350 will have enough power for highway riding. I've become interested in the CL500 for the extra power, the riding position. but I'm curious how much a valve shim service will cost when it comes due. I had a CB1100F back in the late 80s and unfortunately it's shim service was the bane of its ownership. Cheers.
Thanks for that , and sorry this video was a bit short !.. I suppose the answer is to vary it. The DR is one of those highly admired bikes that last forever and fetch very good money . Th GB350 is interesting , I'm aware of it through YT video's BUT it's not available in the UK ( yet ) I think the valve check on the CL is 16K miles but as to cost I have no idea and would vary by country anyway. Many thanks for watching 👍
Fear of depreciation = “How will I then be able to buy the next bike I also cannot afford?” The best way to keep money in the bank is to buy a good second hand bike with as few fashionable (UN)necessities as possible on it and stay with that. My favorite bike is the Honda Nt650Gt Hawk / Bross. Geddit?
15-20 min for general chat and questions, on other subjects longer! Demo bike what is the difference to a used bike if you don't know the previous owner? CF Moto with KTM shipping them out, I think they are more in it for the long term (& prices going up once the brand is established) also they now are making engines for Yamaha, also little complaints about Triumph are made in Thailand (Google search, said Brazil as well)!!
10 to 15 minutes for a general chat video like this one but maybe a little longer (in the15 to 30 minute range) for videos that have a specific theme, like reviews.
Yes you are right, the comparison to the early Japanese motorcycle industry is always used ... but actually the Chinese situation is very different industrially politically and culturally .
@@WyreForestBiker Only in as far that it is convenient for the declining West politicians to play the good old “The enemy is at the gates” game. In the end even that isn’t to much different though. I wouldn’t even want to repeat the sort of comments the Japanese got at the time. Now ask me what I would rather buy? The CF 800 NK or it’s KTM and Husqvarna alternatives? I even think the CF is the more practical and better looking bike. Furthermore it costs a lot less but is still built in the same factory. And as far as depreciation goes: Resell all 3 of them after 1 year and tell me which bikes has the highest depreciation when actual amounts are compared.
I think it depends on your mind set re depreciation. If you want a cheap hack then you could be safe enough with a Chinese bike. At their price you can run them until they die and still not lose as much as an expensive BMW ,Honda and the likes. If you cherish your bikes then probably best staying clear of Chinese bikes Its horses for courses really and what you want them for
Good point Andrew , although I would still go for the reliability of a 2nd hand Japanese bike to a Chinese one even if it was just for a hack... thanks for commenting .
You really can't compare Benelli and CF Moto they are two very different manufacturers. Benelli is really a branding excercise using pretty bog standard Chinese bits whereas CF Moto is a genuine manufacturer that has been building farm quads for quite some time and also building engines for KTM and now complete bikes for KTM. I believe they also have a partnership with Yamaha. Time will tell how their residuals hold up but as Chinese manufacturers go they are leagues ahead of any of the others and if any Chinese manufacturer is going to break into the mainstream I think they will probably be the one.
Good points and time will tell as you say. No doubt CF Moto are the big hitters in the sector , although the KTM connection is not quite as positive a thing in my mind with all the engine issues they have had with the Chinese made models ...Thanks for commenting 😊👍
You know my thoughts David and as usual could not agree with you more on the subject of Chinese bikes losing fistsfull of cash in a short space of time. The sensible thing for the owners maybe is to keep them til they are not economically viable to repair. The only thing is with that is without a crystal ball no one knows when that will be. If say it was 7/8 years then to the scrapyard perhaps that might be reasonable value for the 3 to 6 thousand they probably paid. Nothing is a given or a cert in the mechanical world but my tiger has 16,000 on the clock and my friend has one a little older with 77,000 on the clock now that is value. I am here to be shot down in the future of course but i do not think RE, BSA and CFmoto owners will not be calling them a bargain in a few short years. RE speedo needles sticking because the faceplate warps. BSA Instruments failing and waits of 8 months plus for replacements. BSA & CFMOTO engine management lights stuck on. All these faults are shortly after owners have taken delivery. My opinion on length of videos is it depends very much on what your watching and listening to. Some i watch i would be happy with 10 minutes. Now without wishing to blow smoke up your bottom, your videos i would watch to the end if they were an hour. You flick my switch with the subject matter you come up with and the way you put it across while riding the bike. You must go your own way but i personally would be disappointed if shortened but that does not mean i would unsubscibe. Thanks for what you do, Dale.
Thanks so much Dale , really appreciate that. I'm on the same page as you regarding these bikes but some people seem to have different priorities ... suppose we're all different.... many thanks for watching 👍
I wouldn't buy a Chinese bike, they're too much of a gamble for me and the KTM engine use in the CF moto supposedly isn't free from problems. The old adage of buy cheap buy twice springs to mind.
