I just watched a bunch of videos on the VTC rattle and yours was the only one I saw that took apart the VTC and actually showed how it works. Now that I understand the VTC and what is happening, I am much less concerned. It is such a horrible sound...if only for a second or two. Thank you!!
Where did you get the spring? did you just remove the valve cover and the 4 bolts on the vtc to replace the spring and is there additional info. I'm planning on changing the spring on my crv 2012
a few things: VTEC, the thing you feel and hear, has little to do with the VTC actuator you talk about. VTEC changes valve lift by switching the valve rockers to engage the high cam cam lobes increasing cam duration and lift. The VTC actuator changes cam timing tuning the cam optimally for different loads and rpms. The start-up rattle is caused by the spring you have shown getting weak. The pin then is not able to lock the pin anymore during startup before sufficient oil pressure is present to fill the chambers. The pin is only supposed to unlock when sufficient oil pressure is present. At cold temperatures this takes longer to achieve. If you crank the engine a few times before starting it, the rattle disappears or only occurs very mildly as by cranking you build sufficient oil pressure to let the VTC actuator work without the lobes moving in an uncontrolled manner.
@@mikesproject4704 VTC is variable valve timing. The chain driven cam gear internally rotates to phase the cam vs the “chain”. Even the latest K20C1 combines VTEC on the exhaust cam in this case and VTC on the cam shafts. VTEC combining VTC and cam profile switching was introduced with the K-series, so 2001. Honda is using it ever since, so even in 2023.
I've been working with a company who makes replacement springs for the actuator and in our communications they have told me that the timing chain tensioner going bad can be a factor that creates the rattle.
@@lapin46 bro! was going to say all that but you said everything. Only thing I was wondering about and you actually kind of answered my question was the part about cycling the ignition a few times before starting to build up pressure to better control the vtc slop. Was actually wondering if that works because I haven't tried myself yet. Was unsure if the cycling would be worse on the cam or better until fix.
thanks for the video, i replaced the spring with new one with extra 3mm length, to my surprise the cold start rattling is completely gone. i did it when the cam still in the engine. i only opened 5 bolts on the side of cam actuator and replaced the spring which only cost me less than $1. fyi be extra careful the cam actuator cover is spring loaded, try not to drop the spring and washer into the chain cover and oil pan.
@@Edgar-ne2eb what mike meant I guess is that in the long run this VTC actuator itself will not be damaged so easy, because as mike showed in the video this actuator does not have a lot of wear. As to your concern of actual damage to the car, I think the chain or the tensioner will have some damage as a result of the VTC's inability to lock from engine cold start.
Same here, 2009 Accord, been driving myself crazy because I was afraid that I needed all of the timing components replaced. Now I'm going to try this spring fix and see what happens. Might have to change the tensioner as well, but even if I do, it would still be far less expensive than the alternative. By the way, how is your 08' Accord doing?
THANK YOU SO MUCH for this video and explanation!!! I've been going crazy trying to determine the source of that rattle and have heard all of the speculation surrounding it. From: 1. It's the timing chain rattling against the guide, about to jump a tooth because it's stretched. 2. The oil level is low, or the type of oil is insufficient. (Although I do recognize that oil plays a part). 3. It's the chain tensioner failing. I have had Honda mechanics swear that it was the timing chain making this noise, but I was never convinced of it. Now I have what I was searching for, thanks again.
Thank you man. So what I have gathered is that it is annoying, but it doesn't cause any significant damage to the engine. The problem is, however, that the check engine light comes on in newer cars, which necessitates the changing of this ~$150 part (got a quote for over $700 at the honda dealership)
when the timing chain starts to get loose the chattering could cause it to jump a tooth. it will accelerate the stretch in the timing chain. how long will that happen. i dont know but i have heard people drive like that for years.. there is a company in Canada selling a spring replacement
@@mikesproject4704 thank you for responding. I definitely wouldn't take that risk. I ordered a new vvt sprocket for $150. I'm just going to put it in and see if I can get another 60k miles out of it.
One temporary technique I did in cold weather was to bump the starter a few times before really attempting to start the engine. Doesn't seem to rattle on starting. I think by bumping the engine over builds enough oil pressure to reset the vtc and take up the chain tension. I have a new vtc actuator sitting on the workbench and am waiting for a valve cover gasket to come in so I can change it. Going to try the quick change technique by removing both sprockets as seen on some RU-vid videos.
Great video. Love the breakdown of the internals. I just changed my VCT in my 2008 K24. The one thing that many videos don't reveal is sometimes the VCT can be stuck in between locked and unlocked like mine was. I inherited this vehicle from a family member and I believe the VCT has been rattling for the last 150K miles or more. I had to use some innovation to get the new VCT to line up correctly after torquing it down and locking it. It's as quiet as any new Honda on startup now. I do believe that over time, the resonance of the frequency from a failed VCT will cause premature chain stretching. Just my opinion though.
There's a video of a guy who simply changes the spring and fixed the problem. I'm going to try this next week and see if it fixes the issue. Thank you for posting this, I wasn't sure if there was more failure points but this gives me some confidence the 4 dollar spring may fix the issue. 🤞
Thanks for the design explanation. I have wondered if it was worth fixing in my Fit and from what im seeing you are right the wear is minimal.....little to no point in doing it
Thanks for nice disable and explain but vtc is for adjust cam angle and vtec is engage different cam lobby. For now they are 2 reason, dirt oil or vtc valve or weak spring.
Push the gas pedal down to the floor. This will shut off the fuel injectors and prevent your engine from starting. This will allow you to crank over your engine long enough to build up the oil pressure without your engine starting. Release your gas pedal after around 5-10 seconds or so (dependant on outside temp and engine condition) and your engine will start without the rattle or significantly less rattle because the oil pressure was given enough time has reached your VTC actuator.
Thanks for the great video, I have a similar sounding rattle however not during cold start, but rather when the engine is under load ( 1.5k to 2k rpm, high gear, pushing the accelerator but not enuff to downshift) Would there be a possibility the vtc spring is the culprit here ?
Thank you for such an interesting video... I have a 2014 Honda crv with this problem, I want to know what number of 5-point tork key I need to remove the screws, thanks
religiously changing the oil every 3000 mi / 5000 km with top shelf full synth oil seems to help, guessing detergents keep the spring and other vtc internals clean :)
Mike, The Honda service document shows torquing the cam and actuator out of the vehicle on the work bench. Given that, I don't see how the key pin on the end of the cam is out of the picture re: torque. I have not been able to get anyone to explain why it needs to be unlocked when torqued (especially if it is torqued out of the vehicle.
if you torque it with the pin in you are putting torque on the pin and will/ could miss shape the edge of the hole, or bend the pine.. unlocked the internal star evenly puts torque on it's respected stop.
Hi. Your explanations make a lot of good sense. But why Honda does not sell a spring or a rebuilt kit? There is barely nothing in that actuator to go really bad. But more than 85% of Honda owners are having this noise on cold starts. And here in Canada, that part alone is close to 300$!
WVE brand appears to be Honda OEM since the markings are identical and it is also made in Mexico. Did one today based on Chrisfix video and it wasn't too difficult.
Thanks for posting. So I did mine last weekend, and after I got done I noticed that the old VTC was unlocked. Is this another indication of its failure, or could this have happened removing it?
Thanks ,what are those pieces of metal on the board, does that comes from the part also ? I was hopping you could show us The spring youre talking about
My 2012 Honda Fit makes a grinding noise (like the starter motor remained engaged for a second or so). It occurs only in cold weather startups and goes away after warmup. Would this be caused by a defective VTC? Will it damage the engine? Thanks for your video.
i looked it up and yes your Fit has a timing chain and a VTC.. a few people have told me they replaced the spring and fixed it . cheap and easy option...
What is the part number on your VTC? PAA. I know that CRV PND one’s got replaced part number to RBC. And I did see people fixing it by flexing and stretch the spring once they put it back it’s fixed.
The VTC controls the Intake Cam actuator angle.. whiles the Vtec Solenoid controls the engagement of the 3rd Cam lobes.. wanted to point that out its 2 different functions.
So this actuator advances timing regarding RMP? What if you have thicker oil? What if you have very thin oil? Will timing be advanced in differed RMP regarding the oil :D?! Does oil effect oil pressure in different temperatures? I changed 0w30 oils (had 5w30 before) for my civic 2008 1.8 and rattleling started. Good to know anyway its pretty harmless!
It has really nothing to do with the oil weight. No oil pressure is no oil pressure, whether its 0w-20 or 20w-50. I've run 0w-20, 5w-30, and now 5w-20 after replacing the spring inside the actuator and I still have the rattle.
hi mate... i have the 2.4 k engine in my 05 odyssey and have a code P2646,,,,, i dont have a rattle at all but sometimes it wont rev above 3000rpm is that the same prob or the solinoid
no something different.. go to this link. www.carparts.com/blog/p2646-code-a-rocker-arm-actuator-system-performancestuck-off-bank-1/#:~:text=Diagnostic%20Trouble%20Code%20(DTC)%20P2646,improve%20your%20vehicle's%20fuel%20efficiency.
i used Ow20 . it was my wife's car she did a lot of short trips 3miles to work. so i think it is more of how many times the spring is worked. it was very clean inside
@@EliaBertuzzi 5w20 is more viscous than 0w20 and would due damage in valve body due to lack of lubrication in cold temperature. Never have 5w20 in weather below freezing that would do serious damage. Also take apart the filter to see alumunium particles and check for steel too using magnet on filter membrane to confirm if it performed fine.
it cost me about $100 for the part and about 2.5 hours.. i had a hard time undoing the cam bolt... and guy posted he replaced the spring and it worked.
i am going to say no on damaging the chain. but over time you will wear the inside of the actuator. and will effect oil flow and metal floating in the oil.
No it does not. Mine has been rattling for almost 200K miles. What will happen is it will affect the chain tensioner if anything at all. Since the inner mechanism that is bolted to the end of the intake cam is designed to move independently of the chain and outer gear I am not one who subscribes to the idea that the chain becomes stretched or damaged because of the rattle. That happens for other reasons, usually lack of maintenance and mileage, and many of those miles with low oil level. The chain can and does stretch, and the tensioner could be a part of the rattle. I think people with stretched chains and tensioners going bad are the people who have replaced the actuators entirely and had the rattle return in short order. To explain - since the recess that holds the pin in place is connected to the outer gear in a roundabout way, if the base timing is off due to chain slack or stretch, the recess will not be clocked in such a way that the pin can locate itself as it should in it. So I believe this is why it's not locked on start-up as it's not necessarily locked in the recess on shutdown. The pin could be partially covering the recess, even just millimeters from being seated, but it's not so the inner mechanism is free to rattle.
@@faithwu4484 Thanks. I have been working with the company that makes replacement springs for the actuators. They will tell anyone out there that the tensioner needs replacement, and really, they do. The other huge part of it is, the locking pin needs to be worked over with some abrasives - by hand or by rotary tool. There can be high spots and crud on it that can stop it from moving freely into and out of the detent.
So this engine changes cam timing as the engine speed changes ? I always thought that the ECM was controlling this VCT actuator with oil pressure and the VCT solenoid.
@@mikesproject4704 ok cool that’s good to know I always thought the ECM controlled how far adv or retard the cam was by controlling the oil flow with the VCT solenoid. So for you to have it go all the way in 1 direction that means you have to redline that engine . Sounds like a parity simple manual setup
@@albono780 the older model engines there is a solenoid, this series as soon as there is enough engine oil pressure it pushed the pin and the cam veries. . very simple design.
this is just my guess. the pin will wallow out the hole and the timing will Verri. at high and low Revs, this will cause loss of power may be 20% may be 3 year mark. this will cause cardon build up and over time clod start problems. 5 to 7 year mark . biggest concern would be the stress on the timing chain this would make it loose tension and have slack. causing binding may be 4 year mark. so checking tension on timing chain would be the thing if you want to live with it.
the edge was starting to show a little wear after 6 months. i assume if it wears too much the timing could get stuck in a weird position you might lose fuel economy or a little power
Hello great video. How do you differentiate the VTC issues versus timing change replacement. Getting lights on dashboard with rattling noise for honda crv 2015. Thanks
Your timing chain is stretched and you need to replace that and the chain tensioner. You will have a DTC for the VCT actuator - however the noise and problem you have is the chain.
There are many different access bits required to open these gears. Spring-Start has new vtc actuator locking pin springs with the correct access bit included in each kit.
the rattle is the actuator moving back and forth. you are putting strain and no strain on your timing chain. the rattle has come back on my Honda . i have bought a spring from a Canadian company and will try that soon will do a video. i think the VTC i bought on ebuy wasnt Honda part but a knock off made to look like one
was good for 3 winters. i bought VTC on ebuy and think might not be Genuine Honda. i still think you will shorten chain life how fast i dont know@@maverickperson5443
I was having same prb.. But couldn't notice in the beginning... Atlast the engine started jerking n the timing chain cover also got broken.. I found it when the mechanic opened the cover.. N it will cost u more as well.. So, better get the vtc replaced before it damages the whole system
