They FORGED the ANCIENT DRAGONS!! - Extreme Speculation Elden Ring SOTE Lore 

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"After all, the Forge wasn't designed for pressure cooking dragons" is a glorious sentence I wish I could hear more often in lore speculation videos

So you’re saying he… “Bayled out?”

The ending makes Ansbach words so much more heavy "Become our new lord. A lord not for gods, but for men"

So like, as per Borealis' mist. "The ice dragons were once lords of the mountaintops long ago, until they were defeated by the Fire Giants and chased from the peak." So that puts the fire giants much later than bayle. Now, whats the evidence that it wasn't the fire giants who forged it? Where is the correlation of the big fossilised giants with the forge outside of conjecture? Even the fire giants' age has been long over by the time we came along, so using its aged appearance doesnt really prove anything. The game tells us that dragon communion is a practice that is established after Bayle's betrayal. And dragon communion eventually turns the heart eating warriors into the magma wyrms. If what you said about Bayle is true, who was Bayle before then? Who was the first creature to eat a dragon's heart? Theres no evidence that ancient dragon hearts can even be consumed. And whoever actually did it cant have been the old titans, as Bayle is simply way too small. And the biggest problem i see with this issue is, if Bayle is so strong as to cause such a cataclysm. Whats stopping him from doing it again? Hes nowhere near as powerful as that in his fight against us. That's without mentioning how an explosion of that magnitude would have absolutely pulverised the forge.

I just noticed this, "Bayle and his bloodline have served as sacrifices". Isn't one of Melina's echoes of Marika similar? "If you fail, you will serve only as sacrifices" or some such?

Man, I love Fromsoft lore channels. Thanks for showing me things I'd never notice though I have at least 1000 hours in Elden Ring.

I wanna preface that I 100% agree with the premise that the forge was used as a pressure cooker; excellent catch, and I'm now wondering just where in the hell the lid is in the landscape now XD I think Bayle's physical appearance and unique abilities are a consequence of him being the equivalent of an Omen Dragon. The mark of the crucible is curved, curled or knotted horns and Omens have burning blood; Bayle has six curled ram's horns, a heart with horn-like gravelstone and his lightning is infused with fire/magma. The Omen Curse also causes one to be haunted in their sleep by nightmarish spirits which causes distress and fear; omen killer masks emulate their likeness. That constant hounding explains why Bayle is such a rage fueled murder machine, as he can't just chill out and meditate in deep, blissful slumber like Placidusax (seems to be doing when we find him) or Florissax (if we use Thiollier's concoction on her). The fact the latter works to forgo sleep, views it as so alluring and is immediately disowned by her Lord for faltering lead me to believe that sleep is especially significant for dragons. The Crucible's influence seems to blend living creatures together, with Hornsent society venerating beings based on how "conjoined" they were with different creatures. It's effects come across as a form of supernatural mutagenic influence, one that seems to intersect with spirits (and dreams in the Omen's case) on some level. Bestial humanoids who display features from conjoined beings like the Hornsent (who display varying levels of physical mutations with a "baseline" of simple human with small, knotted horns), Misbegotten, (who seem to be "humans" hit with much more pronounced animalistic features) and Omens (the most mutated). I think that the twisted, tangled and gnarled aesthetic which permeates all things associated with it is meant to be emblematic of the chaos of the natural world where creatures and beasts clash and evolve in a constant cycle of life, death and rebirth. To go a little further, apparently the Japanese for "Crucible" essentially means "Jar" and a crucible is a container where things are melted down, like in a forge turned pressure-cooker. "The" Crucible would be the metaphysical place where the spiritual essence of the dead return, are melted down and then reborn. Sometimes they get tangled together (knotted horns), leading to being born with the aforementioned conjoined traits, which was seen as holy in the past, but now savage and undesirable. In Dark Souls, the external influence of the First Flame brought on change which led to a wide array of draconic offshoots that traded full immortality and an unchanging nature for useful evolved adaptations like breathing fire, resisting lightning or spouting clouds of acid. In Elden Ring, the Crucible's influence worked itself on the Ancient Dragons, with Bayle being the very first affected so. He and his Drake descendants only have gravel-stone encrusted hearts because they were conjoined with the traits of other beings, losing immortality but gaining the ferocious ambition and drive of the shorter lived and *incredible* adaptability. This is why the drakes continue to thrive despite everything (even Scarlet Rot!), while the ancients are ever dwindling. Just like Seath the Scaleless is theorized to be the first dragon born after the First Flame and showcases the extremes of disparity, Bayle the Dread, as the first Ancient Dragon to be affected by the Crucible, was the most mutated and changed it could possibly have been: an Omen. The combo of constant night-terrors, getting shafted with mortality *and* likely being on a lower rung in Placidusax's Order because of his "deformity" probably pissed Bayle right off, and when his Elden Lord's God fled, he just went for it. Edit: To tie it back to the ideas advanced in this video, if the Dragons were indeed forged by the ancient titans, Bayle might have been their first attempt at harnessing the crucible's power in the dragon forging process, and it went *horribly* wrong. The Spira incantation mentions that the spiral (so, the Scadutree itself) is a "normalized Crucible current" which (to me) implies two things. -This is something which can be *harnessed* -There is more than one "current" that emanates from the Crucible, and they manifest as distinct growths that springs up from the root network under the Lands Between.

Holy shit. Not gonna lie, up until the more intensive examination of the Forge, I kinda thought you were doing some wild speculation. The chains, though, what an observation--it's basically impossible to conclude anything BUT that there was something atop it being held in place that was violently ripped away, breaking one chain and setting the other spinning wildly in its full length from the other end. Incredible find! Not as sure about the rest of it--the vitrified rock on the divine towers, for instance, is oriented toward the central sea area, suggesting that's more likely due to the meteor impact supposed to have broken Farum Azula apart long ago. Very interesting ideas for sure though, and the closed forge is certain...

I love this theory. I'd like to add one speculation though. The forge wasn't meant to kill the Bayle we fight in-game, but a primordial Bayle. This stronger primordial Bayle succumbed to his wounds after this event, but his stone heart was eaten by a giant, troll, or human, making him the first case of dragon communion. After a time Bayle's soul took over and is the bayle we fight in the present. Since this bayle is a hybrid formed by dragon communion his offspring are not pure dragons, but drakes.

"This video is a no holds barred discussion of a focal aspect of the dlcs narrative" yessss im ready! Lol

Lore has been on overdrive since the DLC came out

I would suggest that the titans likely used the blood of a the crucible god as an ingredient to make ancient dragons. Ancient dragons have all the aspects of the crucible in harmony, intelligent design by the titans, since as we know from the hornsent, omen, misbegotten and critters the blessing can be very random and cancerous in their growth.

The fire giant is using that plate to put snow in the forge to keep it down

Interesting theory, though it is sort of built entirely on speculation, but it does help explain things that otherwise wouldn’t be(like the lava marks on the towers and forge) I’m not sure how I feel about the giants making the dragons, but I do like the idea of Bayle refusing to cooked and then raining hell on the entire lands between. Honestly I think that he and Placidusax might be the most powerful characters in the game(besides the Tarnished)

I love the observation that the one chain is tied or wound around instead of connected properly. Some cool ideas for sure but there was not enough evidence presented for the forge having anything to do with dragons for me to buy it fully. Keep cooking your videos are good.

I’m pretty sure the forge may have been ontop of the jagged peak inside bayles arena

I think the Fire Giant's shield is actually a torch used to light the flame of the forge. It looks like an Olympic cauldron

Prior to the DLC, I always thought the broken state of the forge was the result of Marika's attempt to stamp out the Flame of Ruin.

idk about all of this but that forge analysis was def onto something!! really interesting to think abt and will def be holding this as head cannon for now lol

2 Chains? My stove deserve a shout out. What up stove?

Tbh, if you search for cut content you will find that the cauldron had a lid initially. But i think you lack any kind of evidence that the dragons/drakes were forged there.

I have to argue that there is evidence of the titans fighting the dragons, as there is a massive spear lodged in the head of the massive dragon in the DLC

Would love to see bayle's model placed inside the forge

This is some next level speculation alright. Incredible video once again. I just disagree with one part, that being the cauldron pressure being strong enough to cause a cataclysmic extinction event. Most sources say a large scale eruption must at least contain 100,000 cubic kilometers of magma and I really can't imagine that being contained in that cauldron, it's immensely large for sure but I just don't think it matches caldera magma reservoirs, especially when we see how the event quite literally lathered several structures across the lands between. Lava also solidifies like ebbing liquid not the spiky mess that we see on Divine Towers but I digress.

Thanks for putting out good content so consistently lately! Good video brother

But what are the Fire Giants and Trolls then? How did they survive this event if it hapened as you said?

Fantastic, investigative work! You’ve made some great observations here. I’ll have to think more on your accompanying theory, but it’s certainly compelling 👏 👏 👏

Isn't there a lore note somewhere that literally says the mountaintops are only snowy because the forge is supressed?

The question now is: Where is the lid?

Could the plate the fire giant uses as a weapon be essentially a communion plate where the hearts of drakes were served on as part of the ritual of dragon communion?

My belief has been that bayle was sighn of the dragons losing their divinity and was in fact a son of placudisax and why he's stated to have betrayed him. And thus started a civil war and thus placudix needed more warriors.

i am calling it! there will be a metal band called "Acursed Bayle" first album "i lie in ruin" first song "Vail Bayle!!" a Elden ring centered metal band would just the most fitting thing! there is so much pontial!

Babe wake up new Prof lore just dropped!

Incredible video!!!

Amazing video!! 👍👌💪 Next time I fight bayle I won't summon igon for the boss only to see if there is a kind of interaction at the end like giving him bayle's heart

I haven't even watched the video yes but already am excited because this is some SPiCY lore!

He forgot he put the stove on and then the bowl cracked while it was empty

We destroyed Bayle and the Titans could not?That makes no sense.

If I had to guess the item the fire giant attacks us with is probably an ash tray.

I think there are some leaps of logic in here that are hard to justify, but your point about the missing chain on the far side of the forge is very interesting.

This is incredible stuff. I'm assuming that Bayle and Placidusax's fight takes place right before this cataclysm? I don't really see any other way for Bayle to be immobilized long enough for anyone to just drop him into a kettle to start cooking. At 3:21 you pan over the huge dead drake and its conspicuosly empty chest cavity while talking about the first Dragon Communion, but I assume it just stands there as a good example of Dragon Communion possibly performed by Titans? As its got that huge ass rod in its dome I doubt human drake warriors brought it down at least not alone. Since you claim Bayle the first Drake arose from this first Dragon Communion, it's more like, some Titan somewhere ate the heart of an Ancient Dragon to become Bayle? ~ Also I think it the tidbit about a biatrial heart is interesting but you imply the Ancient Dragons don't use oxygenated blood since they are literally living rock etc. But there are stony beings in game that are completely immune to Bleed such as the Gargoyles or Radagon himself, so I wonder what it means that fightable Ancient Dragons such as Placidusax, Lansseax, can bleed even if it is highly resisted. From my college level knowledge of systems physiology, the presence of a heart at all implies the circulation of oxygenated blood. What makes a biatrial heart stand out is that it allows for a more complicated two loop circulatory system that allows for the segregation of blood circulating to and fro the heart using one atrium, and blood circulating to and fro the lungs (or other gas exchange organs in non mammals) by the other atrium. The significance of this separation is that the heart can pump blood at relatively high pressure in one loop to push it through a large body while the other loop involving the lungs can be pumped at lower pressure to facilitate gas exchange while not damaging delicate lung tissues. Imagine how hard you'd blow through a metal straw vs. one made of tissue paper. So does that mean Bayle's lungs are more delicate than those of Ancient Dragons because he's not as stony or something?... All this to say uh. I think delving deep into the anatomy of a creature the size of a village that breathes fire etc etc probably doesn't lead anywhere satisfying, but there's still significance to the item description highlighting that aspect of Bayle's heart. My read on it is that it is just a way to add on evidence of Bayle as a "younger" species than Ancient Dragons - biatrial hearts are a relatively modern development in evolutionary history after all.

The giants weapon could be a massive fan used to give the fire of the forge oxygen

A lot of speculation, some of it very interesting. I feel the part of how Bayle was made and them trying to smelt him down a bit lacking though. The channel Thecenteredtarnished has been analyzing Elden Ring through Jungian Psychology and what Carl Jung labels as someone's "shadow." This makes much more sense as Bayle's origin as your shadow is the part of yourself that you lock away, the part that if not properly confronted and controlled grows and becomes an antagonistic force that could take over, ie Bayle being Placidusax's shadow. Placi is a proper lord, all his attacks are regal, while Bayle's is savage and brutal, but contain very similar visuals. The drakes seem to all be a mockery of the perfection of ancient dragons. Him attacking Placi makes a lot of lore sense this way. And also the fact that communion was made after the attack on Placi, which probably happened when he was the lord of the land, and happened eons after the titans vanished

i'm thinkin' like the giant who ate the dragon heart became bayle like magma wyrms but different a little bit, since y'know, their giants, and the dread talisman even boosts magma.

Im sorry titans?

Dude you are crushing it with your theories

amazing video, a really good deep dive on the forge that i never thought to look into. earned a subscriber 👍

Yea u got something here for real there might be room for error but the big picture is there

My new favorite lore channel dropped a video!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would counter your theory and say that the forge was once connected to the shadow realm when they were whole. Jarburg is on the edge of where the land of shadow would have sat.

So you don't have any evidence of bayle being in the forge or it being used for what you say it is?

Wow, I love this. I guess I’m not really observant, because I’m always amazed at how much stuff I overlook in this game.

Elden Ring should release a prequel expansion that lets learn what happened to the eras before how things lead to the Night of Black Knives.

While you've made some amazing points and many of them are extremely valid, the theory is not about dragons. The God-devouring serpent is named this because it was destined to devour the one-eyed God, symbolized by the fire giant's weapon of choice. The last fire giant was left after the war led by the first Elden Lord of the Golden Order. Dragonlord Placidusax was the first Elden Lord of Myter, and the ancient dragons, as well as the beast men, had burial rites in the ways of the twin bird envoy of the outer god of death and rebirth, whose lord at the time was the Gloam-Eyed Queen. Every outer god has a lord: the Gloam-Eyed Queen, the goddess of rot, the prince of death, the lord of the Frenzied Flame, the lord of blood, etc. In Farum Azula, where you first arrive, the twin birds, envoys of the outer god of death, are seen all around the exterior. Later, when you fight a small army of godskins, the burial arrangement area is also adorned with the twin birds. While the dragons and giants were close to each other, their connection seems to end there. However, the god-devouring serpent did have offspring that devoured dragons and they have a connection to the Gloam-Eyed Queen. Your theory could have some merit with more information. The question to ask is, what were they forging that Marika feared so much she needed to leave a fire giant to ensure it couldn't come into being? Side note: "Fell" god means "of terrible evil or ferocity; deadly." This outer god was as feared as the Frenzied Flame, if not more. The outer gods often find a host or conduit to exert their influence. The Frenzied Flame found a set of fingers, lords, and later, in the ending of choice, it took the Erdtree. The Greater Will took the Erdtree, the Void took the moons, and the Rot took a lake and was trapped underground. Underground, we find the mimic tears and learn how a certain group tried to create a vessel for an outer god, similar to how the Hornset created Marika. So again, I wonder what exactly they tried to forge or prevent from being forged? The entire game seems to revolve around Outer Gods. The Other Gods in H.P. Lovecraft's works are known for trying to spread their influence, seeking a way to obtain a consistent form that can house their vast existence and power.

Dragons were born from the Crucible

I think in regard to the 2 loose chains and the burnt 4th spot for a chain, they were attached to farum azula, lands of shadow, and one for the lands between. (Not quite sure where the 4th would go though)

I wonder if Bayle turn against dragon because of Godwyn becoming friend with Fortissax.

Im having trouble following this theory, you use the line that igon reminds the priestess of bayle but that hardly implies that it's because bayle also partook in dragon communion but rather that his shortsightedness and strong ambition remind her of him. Furthermore the drakes aren't the results of dragon communion the magma wyrms are. Non of the drakes are former dragon hunters. Though i may be misinterpreting as i can see the idea that drakes are the result of ancient dragons partaking in dragon communion but it doesn't feel like that's what your going for or even related to that being brought up. I also have always interpreted the timeline having ancient dragons and titans being alive at the same time. Alternatively to the dragon communion line of reasoning, maybe the ancient dragons used the forge to create drakes rather than the titans creating the dragons; more specifically they created the birthing drakes, the giant drakes like the ones in farum azula, caeled, and near the dlc dragon alter and perhaps bayle was the first created in this way and considered a failure since the roast of the first drakes look so different than him, greyoll is considered the mother of the drakes and either birthed all drakes or just birthed the first drakes that were naturally born so likely only the 2 other giant drakes and bayle would have been crated in this way

This cataclysm may be the answer for the great fires in the outer gods heirloom. Maybe this disaster, death of many and the corpse of their ancestor (corpse of the ancient giant? The body on the heirloom is pretty big) lead creation and the first use of the gate of divinity. I believe that the gods from 2 first dynasties were formless mother and god of rot (Rauh civilisation is based upon sealing him by the swordsman). As for the formless mother this can be tricky, because she is worshipped in the Rauh ruins and also in the prospect town. The prospect town could lighten it up, but at least for me it doesn't make the situation clear, because as you said- the statues inside of the town are newer. So we cannot be sure if the creatures worshipping formless mother here came from the first and second dynasty (or maybe it was the latter, I will read gladly what you guys are thinking). Also somewhere between all of this should be a place to explain 3 fingers maybee??

Let's goooo

What is your thoughts on the twinbird’s connection to the ancient dragons? There’s carvings of it all around farum and its kids (deathbirds) mostly hang out around fallen pieces of the farum. Twinbird kite shield tells us it is also the envoy of an outer god🤔

Wait how could he be the result of dragon communion? Like he ate a dragon heart? It seems like youre saying his heart was eaten. Idk im tired and sick so maybe i misheard.

Cool theory. Loved it.

It's an interesting theory but where is this idea of these titans coming from? I don't see anything correlating to that at all.

When did titans become a thing in Elden ring??

Did i miss something or is there not a single indication Bayle or any dragon was ever in the forge? Also no details on any sort of creation story for the ancient dragons. As for the forge damage, there was literally a war that happened in that exact location. Additionally the problem with the Shattering is that it disrupted the rhyming pattern of history in the world, it had no predecessor.

Is there a source for the bit about "the titans created the ancient dragons through a ritual" statement that all this speculation is built upon?

This is such a great analisis mate. Science bish !!!

This makes absolutely no sense

Thanks for the video but I strongly disagree with everything. Looking forward for upcoming videos though

Facts.

I don't think Bayle was created from dragon communion as wasn't dragon communion created by ancient dragons to get humans to kill Bayle & his bloodline, therefore after Bayle Plus the dlc is very much Omen/crucible/horn focused so i thought it made more sense that Bayle was a dragon touched by the crucible making him the first Omen Dragon aka Drake As he is covered in Omen horns But the crucible is the aspect of life, change, evolution which it gave to Bayle & Bayles bloodline the drakes What could be more blasphemous to an enternal unchanging race than one of their own capable of change & evolution?

I thought Placidusax's outer god was the greater will? also is the idea that Bayle hid out for an era after the crucible exploded to recuperate and then came back and fought placidusax?

Too speculative for my liking. There really isn't very much supporting evidence for this in the game, as far as I can see.

This opener is what i say every time i end up in jail... "curse you bail!!!!" My broke ass can't afford that kinda luxery, guess imma be chillen here for awhile yet, lol.

I think Placidusax age is the crucible age, the serpentine corpse marika takes the rays of gold out of is the fled god of placidusax, it tried to stop marika from becoming a god and was slain by her then marika took the gold inside of it given by the greater will and used it to become a god herself at the gate, why are people sleeping on the snake corpse from the trailer that literally has gold inside of it telling us it was atleast once in contact with the greater will lol.

I like the theory and speculation but this really feels more like fan fiction/head canon than a solid theory. Gonna need to see actual in game item description atleast for me to even take this out of the realm of "headcannon" and "legit theory"

all this hassle to kill a dragon. they should have just leveled their strength and hit it with a stick repeatedly

9:25 I always just figured that Marika forced him to keep it alive but never strong, so he just alternates between chucking in dead trees and shoveling snow with this plate-thing to periodically dampen it

This is one of those theory’s where when you hear it you get mad cause it was right in front of you this whole time

I think you need to check out Tarnished Archeologist's video about the forge, as it tells that it is not a "Forge" per se, but a small cauldron for melting small amounts of iron.

I'm going to say a hard no not even a minute in.

I can’t deny the evidence but this ruins the dragons. From soft always have Dragons be the primordial beginning of time and this just makes them failed pets.

I just keep thinking of a Giant large enough to stand over the Forge, and it comes up to proportion of his waist AND I AM TERRIFIED GODDAMN WHAT HAVE WE GOT TO THROW DOWN WITH WHEN WE BECOME ELDEN LORD!?

This is too outlandish to be plausible… good story though

Ok but what proof do you have that Titans forged the Ancients Dragons ? What item speak of this ? You have no proof that Bayle was seduced and that he didn't attack Placidusax of his own volition. Your theory is hardly supported by any proofs.

The forge of the giants means that's where the giants are forged

Awwwwwwwww

Interesting, but highly speculative.

You didn't pay attention.

Both of your videos are entirely speculation with no evidence to support it. You barely quote lore from the items unlike the big channels like vasti and smough. Id like to see way less speculation and conjecture and some evidence tonsupport your outlandish claims lol.

Why do you keep calling the Giants... Titans???....Aren't Titans from Greek mythos and Elden ring is based on Norse mythology

This video ain’t it bro . Can’t lie to you in this one

Too many speculation, no evidence in descriptions, cherrypicked dialogue from Dragon Priestess. Good editing and storytelling though.

Take your meds.

Sick video! When is the apology for it coming out?