Very salient point at the end there, which I think a lot of folks in lore-diving circles could do with internalising. It's not just that it's more compelling to have some questions unanswered, but nothing is worse than if the answers turn out to be disappointing.
The inverted Adam and Eve theory is so obvious after you pointed it out. GRR Martin likes to subvert old stories and tropes, and he was the one who wrote the mythos pre-Shattering.
There’s tons of antediluvian pre biblical flood civilization and Mesopotamian theological and mythological references in the game So wouldn’t be surprised if it was the case.
I wonder if the concept of divinity and God's light applies to Farum Azula as well since night does not exist there too. Another thing that is interesting is that in the trailer, we see how gloomy and dark it is when Marika first ascends, but perhaps that was when the transfer of power was happening since light peeks through after that, and most likely, that was the moment she became a God. Great video, really fascinating information backed with great context!
That's a good point about the sky during Marika's ascension rite. Maybe we can chalk it up to being dramatic for the trailer. Faram Azula gets its name from "Lighthouse", so there might be separate context for that.
@@Cobaltblues4I also saw that from the latin it would be something more like “blue Lighthouse” in spanish is “faro azul” words very similar to farum azula
The gates of divinity are in the shape of the two fingers communion similar to the Dragonlord. The gate must be a type of ritualistic structure to commune with God i.e the greater will.
I'm starting to think the Greater Will doesn't exist and it's more like Will To Power. i.e. The Golden Order is on top because they brute forced their way there and that is the evidence of their Greater Will (to power). I think the whole thing is the machinations of The Fingers.
11:00 A similar thought to mine. If one of those horsent corpses accumulates revered spirit ash, imagine how much spiritual power is coalesced at the Gate.
Channel is good and I thought the comment was just supportive but half-joke but now that I've watched the video... Yep, he's actually done it, he has cracked the code!
Marika also is very clearly wearing a golden snake bracelet in the trailer with the snake. And I think you sort of answered your question about "snake hate." She charms the Hornsent, she's perhaps supposed to "Marry" the Serpent, their chosen God, she surprise kills it and takes Godhood for herself. Afterwards, she claims that the snake betrayed her, and it's perhaps why she's so intent on people understanding that she is the "one true God." It could very likely be Marika spinning the truth. Good video too!
i think there may be a different interpretation: perhaps wearing the snake bracelet as she takes the gold is synecdoche representing how she allied with the serpent to help kill whatever held the grace strands? i may be wrong but it’s what stuck out to me. perhaps she would have needed a consort to kill her version of the elden beast, but the allegiance of the snake worked in lieu of a consort, allowing her to create radagon instead…? just spitballing
The bracelet doesn't seem to have serpentine features, and Marika apparently wore it frequently throughout her reign, judging from the game's opening artwork and the statues of Marika. It might just be a normal bracelet, and Marika detests serpents because one cursed her firstborn son and another tries to trap souls within it that could otherwise go to the Erdtree.
It's interesting that you mention Marika taking gold/light from the sunken dead eye of a serpent, and the in game words of Messmer: "Of the abyssal serpent, shorn of light". I would imagine this would tie Messmer more closely to the dead serpent than perhaps you initially thought?
that wasn't a snake, can't believe people think that thing looks like a snake, the game has snakes in it and they actually look like snakes, that thing she pulled the runes from looks nothing like a snake if you actually know what a snake looks like
A couple things I'd like to raise up: - There is no indication that God-Devouring Serpent from Mt. Gelmir is related to Abyssal Serpent seduced by Marika and manifested in Messmer per your theory. As far as I remember, it was just a powerful lifeform worshipped by humans from Gelmir before the Erdtree. - In your disregard of Empyreans as fabrication of Fingers, you might have missed the fact that their status has nothing to do with Gate. They are chosen/nominated as a new bearers/vessels of the Elden Ring, which is a completely different mechanism of divinity, based around conceptual "reprogramming" of the world and its laws. It's unclear what is the relationship between the two sources of divinity, but my current presumption is that the Ring predates Marika's ascension (evindenced by explicitly pre-Erdtree Placidusax being titled Elden Lord) and is more of an inanimate object, a passive crystallization of Grace that can, with sufficient power, edit the rules of reality; power which the god Placidusax was lord for had by virtue of being most likely draconic being, power which Marika and Miquella acquire by undergoing Gate ritual, power which Empyreans acquire by connecting with Outer Gods. - To be more positive, your conception of the Elden Ring universe being based around primordial oneness is quite fitting the revelations from Ymir: that the Greater Will has created it wholecloth and on some level all of existence is still within the Greater Will.
A couple of things about the ring and the Empyreans. Yep, the Ring is a LOOOT ancient compared to Marika. Kanji used to talk about Placidusax and his age are for our Stone Age. If we take the end of stone age, is between 3.4 million and 6000 years ago. It's even possible a lot of Gods were born and died between Placy and Marika. But, the Ring itself is not simply capable to edit the rules of reality, it IS the rules of the Reality. Elden Beast it's called Embodiment of Order, but Order in japanese is Rule. What's the relationship between the Gate and the Elden Ring? Still unclear, we should understand first what is exactly the Divinity/Heaven/High Sphere the Hornsent worship, especially because Marika and Miquella probably did something different. (When we see her do that thing with the Gate, she's still corporeal, while Miquella removed pieces of himself to "Not be like Marika.) We also need to see if Marika's God status is the same of Miquella for Kanji. About Empyreans, it's not totally a different mechanism. Empyreans are chosen by the fingers and, probably, even thanks to genes from parents, but in Japanese their names means "People close to divine." Not only Elden Ring, just divine. This is why Malenia is born so damn influenced by Scarlet Rot and, maybe Messmer and Melina, influenced by a Flame. (Maybe Miquella created the Needle to protect even himself from Outer Gods.)
I agree with most of what you said except when you said Marika and Miquella underwent the same divine gate procedure, the thing that Marika does in the DLC trailer is totally different from what Miquella does
@@joesaiditstrue Well, in trailer we see Marika just before ascension, whereas with Miquella we only see him afterwards, when he is already a full god. So we can't be sure, except it seems both used the Gate.
This may seem way out of left field but it occured to me that Marika's cross looks like a female reproductive system (fallopian tubes uterus and birth canal). I've also seen it pointed out that the negative space on the divine gate is the shape of Marika's cross. Well there is a connection there - something I believe to be implicit in many magic systems even if it's not stated explicity. The female reproductive system, in a world where spirits and a spirit world exist, functions as sort of a gateway for the spirit of the unborn child to enter the physical world and attach to a body. Very powerful spirits often enter the world through some kind of ritual that relates to sex or at the very least involves sexual imagery. It may not be a huge lore revelation but I think there's meant to be this "birth" imagery associated with the divine gate. It could be as simple as "someone is reborn a god" but it could also relate in a more specific way to the mechanics of how it works.
@@hoffmankspengineering2034 That's a very valid point, and the symbolism is so universal it can hardly be a coincidence. I wonder if Marika selected her own rune to accord with the shape as the "mother" of the Golden Order
I've always read Marika more as someone who came to realize what St. Trina says about Miquella when she asks you to kill him: that divinity is a prison. I think she just wanted out in the end. Why else would she task Hewg with smithing a weapon for the tarnished to kill her?
The divine gate is heavily inspired by the Indonesian Candi bentar, most famous of them being in Lempuyang in Bali. Which totally makes sense, the Divine Beast dancer is also inspired by the lion dances of Bali more than the ones from China.
Fantastically well done. The connection to the "marriage" of our PC and Anri in particular is an insightful one, and dovetails well with some theories we're working on regarding the ritual atop Etemenanki/Gate of Divinity. Keep up the good work!
Thank you! I'll look forward to hearing that. I suspect the marriage to Anri will be more useful in working things out since it predates the Gate, which in any case draws more directly on Beserk and Griffith's eclipse.
Hey I would just like to propose that what you think is a serpents head where Marika pulls the threads from is actually a serpents EGG. If you look up ball python eggs, specifically of the hatching process, or even better; assisting one to hatch by cutting it open, you will see some similarities. Even the coloration and blotching.
The Eve/Serpent/Sin, Temptation/Betrayal connections seem to be the most probable..especially when tied into the "ascension to godhood". Great analyses.
Thank you for giving a brief summary at the end of the video. As a teacher myself, I think it's one of the most important things when you try to transport knowledge. This is also what many newcomer lore channels fail to deliver: There are many interesting tidbits, connections and findings, but most of the time they miss the broad strokes. The big picture. Many times this builds into heavy speculation. Back in Dark Souls 1 days, I started watching EpicNameBro and Vaati, and they always "warned" their audience when they tapped into speculation territory. But without that, it's just interesting a sequence of neat facts that are easily 5 minutes later. Weaving a story out of all the facts and findings, this is where it gets interesting. Charred Thermos told us the story of Victorian medicine in Bloodborne. Tarnished Archeologist tells us stories where Leyndell and Ancient Rome intersect. Hawkshaw told us the impressive story of Elden Ring's color theory. Recently, Nameless Singer told us the story of the Gold Road. Here, you tell us the story of Babylon and Enir Illim. I think there is much more to tell, but I am here for it. The mixture of etymology, real world lore and history, mythology and Elden Ring's world is exactly what I love. Learning about the piece of art that are Fromsoft's games, while also learning about real history. I am glad that I found your channel, thank you! Keep your eye on the big picture, it's far more interesting this way. Even if you have to speculate a bit. It's fun!
The thing I noticed immediately the first time I saw the gate was that it appears to be a massive pair of feet. I originally figured that it was just a giant statue like the Colossus of Rhodes but the more I thought about it, the more I began to suspect that it might be a giant corpse. More specifically, I think it may be the physical remains of the Crucible from which all life spawned. Those bodies sticking out weren't put there by he Hornsent. They're the remains of the last creatures to be spawned from this colossal being before it died from giving up so much of its flesh which in turn killed the last of its offspring still attached to it. It would explain why just standing near this thing could allow someone to (at least seemingly) attain godhood. If this is the primordial source of all life in The Lands Between, then even it's long dead remains would be unbelievably powerful.
If we take the berserk lore analogies to apply to er then this is similar to emperor ganishika using the gateway to the deepst realms and becoming a giant godly being who was comprised of the bodies and forms of innumerable sacrifices; and in Griffith's slaying of the godlike gamishika the world entered a new era where Griffith was now christened as the god of the new world
I m so glad you pointed out the parallels to Beserk bc as many lore videos there are I havent seen made that point before. For me the gate of divinity is clearly a reference to Berserks Eclipse and how Griffith sacrifices all of his fellow Bandcompanions to ascend to the HAND of GOD (Uh theres a Hand). The scene with all the countless bodies and blood really reminds me of that part in Berserk..everything is blood, carnage and gore.And Marika as Griffith betrays to get her way. Marika as shaman is about blending. The Sun and the Moon in ER are entities on there own. In an Eclipse Marika could blend with the Power of the Sun and the Moon what rises her to godhood.
Bravo! I really appreciate your approach to interpretation here, relying on real world historical and religious inspiratios/symbolism. While I am still a bit frustrated that they didn't give us one shred of information on the nature of the "seduction and betrayal", I think you extracted the most we can possibly say based on the available information, without delving into wild speculation.
The implication is the Mother of Fingers tempted Marika into Godhood to betray her by making her a Puppet of the Finger's insane Will. God's Broken Hands
You have to be careful when using real-world analogs. How much is inspirational meaning and how much is because this stuff is cool and mysterious? Its not 1 to 1.
Great theory but you missed something major. While I think it's clear Marika's motivations for shattering the elden ring were clearly not out of grief for Godwyn, I do not agree that it was out of preservation of her golden order. Given the Item descriptions of the Scarseal and Soreseal talismans I think its more likely that some time after attaining godhood, she sought to freedom from the greater will, from it's order. The whole purpose of the Tarnished coming back was to ultimately fight the elden beast and remove the Greater will's vassal from the elden ring. I believe Marika sought to do this through any means even pitting her children against each other. It appears that she put multiple plans in place, one such plan was setting the stage for our character by banishing Godfrey and the tarnished, so they would eventually return. If you look at the details surrounding the knight of the black knives It doesn't make sense that Ranni would be the mastermind, especially if the Black knife assassins were involved. Don't forget they are Numen per the black knife set. I think this DLC made the lines drawn between the demigods a little clearer and was basically just the leftover content they didnt have time to put into the base game. But I'm entirely sure Marika did not shatter the ring to preserve the Golden Order as it was. Also I would like to know what you think about the greater will's involvement with the gate of divinity. I think its clear Marika communed with the Greater Will and Radagon was the result of that, Which later is one of the things that led to her wanting to free herself. I also think that people are also missing the fact that in the boss fight with the Elden Beast that there are other Erdtrees, which implies that the Greater Will has established its order on other worlds/dimensions. Which if that's the case then what does that tell us about it's nature? What does this tell us about the struggle for influence with the other outer gods?
My head canon is that the reason marika is topless in the trailer is because she was "posing" as radagon, attending some crazy ceremony maybe in attendance of the GEQ, then right at the point of interest she revealed herself, betrayed everyone there, and stole whatever the point of the ceremony was. She's even wearing a pretty similar tunic/skirt garb that they're wearing in the radagon boss fight
The gnostic and esoteric themes are obvious to those who know. Even the eye symbolism is a reference to the Antichrist and comes from the Bible, which says: “Woe to the worthless shepherd Who leaves the flock! A sword will be on his arm And on his right eye! His arm will be totally withered And his right eye will be blind.”(Zechariah 11:17) It’s kind of strange that so many Christians are into Elden Ring when it’s an inversion of their faith.
WOW! Impressively researched video, glad I discovered your channel! I was so excited for anyone to do lore on the divine gate, the first scene we see of it in the story trailer had me enamored. Keep up the great work, definitely earned a sub.
We are very close to something, in my opinion the gates of divinity and Inur-ilim(which roughly sounds like "candle/light source of the gods" in old testament Hebrew) might be a reference to the tower of babel in the usual backhanded fromsoft manner, just throwing this idea out here, I can provide more in game sources to confirm this correlation, thanks for the video bro, good job
What if Marika was behind it all, being aware of the flaw within the order? After all, she did task Master Hewg to forge the God killing weapon. And in stead of choosing an hair, she divided the broken rune among all of the empyrians and made them fight each other, weakening them enough so that our tarnished can pick 'em off one by one. And even if she didn't directly help Rani, she may have allowed her plan to come to fruition, something that her other manifestation Radagon, could not forgive her. And it was for this act of being an accomplice into the conspiracy that she was punished and crucified on the very Tree she helped grow. Marika sacrificed her self and brought ruin to the world, so that a better one could come forth. But she herself could not see such world, so she created the scenario in which others would come to the solution. Others like the Gold Mask and Rani. With the aid of our Tarnished of course, guided by her very daughter Melina, who was after all, aiding us on her mother's behalf.
Great analysis; a nice balance of tying in to real world mythology and detail, but not getting lost in minutiae. One thing i think we as a lore hungry audience are too prone to forgetting is that these stories are to be treated as mythology, not historical accounts... they are SUPPOSED to be inscrutable and opaque, mysterious and unknowable. The more detail we know, the smaller the world ultimately feels. I have but one disagreement with you on this video, and it's not something anyone may ever prove definitively: I am sure that the figure Marika pulls the golden threads from in the trailer is covered in cloth, as in a fine shirt. The edge has a visible seam and what could be button holes, and furthermore it moves fluidly and easily as cloth would. Also snakes don't have eyelids, which if it were a serpent I would think they would model it so you could see the eye. A quibble, but one I felt like sharing. Wonderful work, and hopefully more people find your channel and astute analyses soon. :)
@@jamesdanielh Absolutely, the interpretative aspect is what keeps it alive in the imagination, so I try to provide context without imposing strict narratives (and I try to keep things concise). Also completely fair about the fabric. There might be an element of artist's impression here, so maybe we're supposed to keep an open mind.
Rykard did NOT become one with the "abyssal" serpent. The abyssal serpent is part of Messmer. Rykard merged himself with the god-devouring serpent, which is a very different entity. And Rykard's blasphemy is that he is hunting the tarnished with intent on turning them against each other. This is blasphemous because Marika had intended the tarnished (including Godfrey) to return to the Lands Between to enter the Erdtree, presumably defeat Radagon and/or the Elden Beast that was pulling her and Radagon's strings, and mend her Golden Order.
THE KERATIN THEORY: Hornsent culture worship horns, scales, wings, tails, hair, etc. Perhaps they're considered divine due to their mysterious nature, or, my theory, is that growth represents power. How do these appendages grow? IRL, it's Keratin, cells assigned to harden upon death. In ER, they grow at the casters will, appearing grey-ish white, but red on the inside. The Divine Gate, formed of many lifeforms assigned to harden upon death, represents the growth Hornsent society experienced upon the enslavement of other cultures, like the Shamans. Horns represent, through the lens of life and death, a weapon formed through the creation and death of countless lifeforms, all of which created and controlled by a greater lifeform; to worship horns, is to belief the control of other lifeforms is divine. EDIT: PS. have you every considered the Divine Gates look like an inverted half-eclipse? The Berserk eclipse with the line going down, like we see in Castle Sol. I think the Divine Gate acts less as a "oh you're powerful now" and more "DOMAIN SHIFT", where the fundamentals of reality get changed because literal alien concepts are introduced for the world. In this case, I think the eclipse functions literally the same as Berserk's did, it introduced the demons and the Apostles to the world, something to do with the GEQ, maybe inventing the concept of death, who knows?
Just something to add to your linguistic connections- a lot of the gravestones across both the Lands Between and Land of Shadow have an extremely archaic version of Hebrew on them
You ever seen the drawings that looked like Priscilla or the ones that looked like those Lost Giants of nightmare frontier? I kid you not there's depictions of women who are tall and have so much hair on them it's like a dress. The others are those weird headless men with faces on their chests. Weirdest stuff.
One thing to note is that the space within the gate itself resembles Marika's rune of life, and the brand that appears on the forehead of the jar shamans, presumably by their Hornsent captors, resembles the rune of life overlapped with the rune of the death. This goes along with the description of the Greatjar helmet which describes the jarring practice as "the cycle of death and rebirth, taken into the hands of mortal men." Moreover, the Hornsent's ascetic practices are said to be attempts "to ascend from their mortal flesh into tutelary deities of the land." They transcend their mortality by being inhabited by the eternal life of the divine beasts. Would it be surprising then that Marika would use this gate to both separate life from death and become the vessel for the Elden Beast?
My only issue with the "ranni is a threat to my power so I need to destroy the order point" is grace points to the carian manor. Unless grace is directed from an entity other than Marika, it should be her who directs players to ranni.
I greatly enjoyed your video. Miyazaki and FromSoft definitely used a lot of mythology as inspiration for this tale and you relate those clearly and concisely. I wonder if you are going to revisit the Babylon medieval picture and how the beast is a horned one....
congrats on a very well put together video! As for the trailer scene depicting a serpent I believe that it as actually depicts cloth, namely a swaddling cloth. The animation was created with a cloth simulation and you can clearly see the stitches in the opening, and if I was to guess I'd say that's a baby's head we see through the hole.
I think she took the place of the Gloam Eyed Queen from asccension to Godhood. I mean, she is the only other Empyrean from Marika's past, why would even be mentioned if not for this reason? She also is most likely related to serpents, since her Godskins have serpentine features.
I think you may be on to something with Marika being consort to the serpent god, because it would not be the first time fromsoftware has had mention of something like this. In Sekiro, there is a guardian serpent god we must "marry" as part of the quest to reach the fountainhead palace, which is akin to the divine realm in Sekiro. Not to say this is a one to one comparison, but an interesting connection nonetheless.
It should also be noted that Marika is both Eve and Adam, because she is both Marika and Radagon. So I think your argument about it being an inverted 'Garden of Eden' is probably right. But we still need an explanation of where the snake came from. The Hornsent don't revere snakes as far as we know, and neither did the Shamans. So why would a snake, and only a snake, be needed for Marika's ascension?
fantastic video! i personally disagree with the adam/ eve story bc i don’t think it fits the seduction and betrayal concept as well. i like the idea tho. overall great video learned a lot
Amazingly good video, excellent pacing, good tone. You certainly have a passion for the lore and shared angles and hypotheses that jive a lot more with the greater lore understanding than most channels that have gone live since the DLC. So, subbed and now I'm looking through your back content. I'd like to point out a few things that may be sticky. To me all the evidence pointed to the fact that Marika wanted to get out from under the 2finger's 'thumb' (haha), and I think she was blindsided by Ranni's betrayal as Ranni being a Carian and a child of Radagon likely had direct contact with the Black Knife assassins and didn't need to work with Marika for any part of the plan (I know you don't assert that here, just that it should be illustrated). So I don't think Marika was acting to prevent Ranni from apotheosis, rather she was distraught that her intended heir, her only perfect child, had died and said 'f-it all, you deal with it and possibly even impaled herself because we STILL have zero direction on that one so it's free range. Really love how you tied in the Mesopotamian ritual context to flesh out the ascension ritual, which has been a special interest of mine since finding that cryptic scroll. I'm working on a concept that deals directly with that, the shaman's connection to the Crucible that you just provided some very well fitting pieces to and it's set my mind on fire. Your channel deserves some ridiculous growth and more people need to see your work. Thank you again, and have the best week!
Thank you so much! I'm pleased things seem to be taking off now! The real world lore helps, but I think it's easier to "get" the lore if you think "what would I do here?" The point about Marika being impaled is interesting. Clearly, it's a Crucifixion scene of sorts. The rune arc stands in for the cross, but the red streak is odd. The Roman soldiers pierced Christ's side with a spear instead of breaking his legs, and water mixed with blood poured out. That maybe explains the colour, but is it supposed to have been done by the GW as part of her imprisonment? Radagon's rune sign are the diagonal lines and his colour is red, so perhaps it's a visual display of him being part of her, even in this state.
@@EriksLore Ok I think you hit on something REALLY big here because I used to think the 'red spear' was a part of Destined Death but now I'm thinking you're right and it IS Radagon based on the color and the trellis design. DAMN MAN YOU GOT THE JUICE! Because I've been wondering HOW a piece of destined death got out of Farum Azula but here I see this scene playing out: Marika breaks the Elden Ring, Radagon tries to repair it, then subdues Marika and uses some of his 'red' nature to impale her and prevent her from having more kids. Oh man set yourself up a patreon quick because I have a burning need to give you money
I dont think this game is finished. It cant be, right? Fromsoft had made 2 dlc's for this game, and we only got one. I know they ended up combining them, but belurat and ennir illim and ruah give so little. How colluld they have planned 1 dlc to be so little? There has to be another coming. In a year, or 2 years, or something. It cant end like this, not with radahn. Everything pointed to godwyn. I.. i need this
I think the Colosseum expansion was intended as the first DLC if memory serves, but I think they did a good job with this DLC in terms of its size and density- balancing open world with actual content. This was a big bread-winner, so investor pressure might get them to consider a sequel.
The divine gate also has a big visual similarity to the Two Fingers standing at attention, trying to make contact with the Greater Will, including being at the tops of grand towers. Seems like this form of the twin "antennae" reaching up toward the sky from an incredible height is important to forming a connection with the realm of the divine, or at least iconic of the attempt to do so Also, if I had to make a guess at Marika's motivation in shattering the Elden Ring, I would honestly lean toward the opposite one of yours. I think Marika very much wanted to end her reign as a god by that point, having realized the futility of everything she once hoped to accomplish by becoming one. Ridding herself of the serpent, the horned folk, the flame of the giants? They all came back. Ridding her order of Destined Death so she could never have her family taken away again? Also failed! All the sacrifices she made in the process of creating her better world, all the ways that she became just as bad if not worse than the oppressers she overthrew, were for nothing... But she knew that Radagon would never allow someone else to replace them or their Golden Order, not unless she did something drastic like scatter much of the power of the Ring and encourage her children and her greatest warriors to gather the pieces and someday gain enough strength to slay a god and bring about a new age
i do agree with you on Marikas motivations. Add to that the sudden appearance of Radagon in the history of the Erdree resulting in him having seeminly more influence than Marika herself from this point on suggesting that those two personalities started to split more and more. this really paints a tragic tale of her story. A Person stumbling into godhood just to avenge/free her people, fight of and overcome of lot of initial resistance just to see the resulting prosperous age of her godhood dwindle rather quickly. Also, if we see Godwyns death as the catalyst, its interesting to note he is the only "true" child of hers, as mogh and morgott are omen and every other child is of radagon
@@Llunatix13 The fact that the people weren't freed or saved doesn't help either. Marika seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the attempts to free the shamans from the jars, and they didn't even attack Bonny Village/Enir-Ilim, the focal points of the horror
@@bajscast well, now that i think of it you are right. If her burning motivation was revenge, she wouldve burned down everything immediately. But there is very strong evidence that the crusade happened WAY later, since Rellana joined it and most likely woulnd't have before the marriage of Radagon and Renalla. i always ping pong back and forth on Marika as a character, her actually wanting good for the world or her being a manipulative, powerhungry bitch :T But as Leda stated in the DLC. Everyone is just as bad, its just that the victors ge to write history.
@@Llunatix13 I think probably part of what happened is that at the beginning of Marika's reign, signs of the Crucible were still seen as divine, so turning on the hornsent immediately would have made her own people turn against her Instead, she focused on mutual enemies like the fire giants and only sent the crusade to Belurat much much later, after she had slowly spread the idea that horns and stuff weren't actually divine, they were signs of impurity
@@aranthur great point. You are totally right, there are multiple signs that the crucible was deemed heretical only after a time - that fled my mind. Thanks for pointing it out Marika definitely plans longterm is not a hotheaded victim acting in revenge. Hell, she lied to and completely abandoned her (maybe even first) child for the big cover up. - so yeah i guess no ping pong on her anymore
I guess what I question here, is your speculation/hypothesis for Marika shattering the Elden Ring. If Marika shattered the Elden Ring to prevent another (ie Ranni) from attaining Godhood, why give Grace to the Tarnished in the first place? It’s like tearing down a bridge to prevent an enemy’s advance, just to give someone on the other side the tools to rebuild the bridge. Alternatively, if it is not Marika who gave the Tarnished Grace, then we would have to assume that it is Radagon/Elden Beast. But Radagon’s Symbol is what Seals the Erd Tree, and Radagon and the Elden Beast try desperately to prevent the Tarnished from ascending to Elden Lord.
My own thoughts of what I would do in Marika's position were desperate self-preservation. Radagon was now a hindrance and the Elden Beast was actively working against her, so I think she awakens the tarnished to do her dirty work for her, "cleaning up" after the shattering, and intended for Godfrey to dispose of us once we'd done the job, which is why she uses grace to lead him to us as shown in that cutscene. I think it was a gamble to get back on top with Godfrey at her side like in her early reign, and it very nearly paid off. But that's only my own interpretation and I accept it isn't perfect!
8:40 I find it fascinating that the only other place in Elden Ring where there isn't a true day/night cycle is Farum Azula. It is also the highest place in the game and thus, perhaps, closest to the gods?
I discussed this briefly in the Dragons' Names video, although not in relation to Enir Ilim. Faram means "lighthouse" (Faram Azula therefore could be taken to mean "beacon up in the blue") and I think the destruction of the Lighthouse of Alexandria was the inspiration behind it, so they might have been trying to convey something different. That being said, I'm not suggesting these are allegories for real world events, I'm just noting the inspiration, so don't read too much into it.
Great video. Can you increase your audio volume. I had to turn up my volume a lot to hear your words clearly. The shape of the gate reminds me a lot of the symbol of spiral incantations. Hands reaching to the heavens. Also im starting to think that runes are souls and that you can use these souls to order them in a specific way to create specific laws, rules, and regulations for those bound by your system, aka those blessed by the grace of gold.
Does anyone have like an outline of the overall story? I would be interested in that. 1. There was unity 2. A fracture happens, causing division of entities. Order and chaos, the greater will and the frenzy. 3. The division somehow leads to a bunch of different entities in space or void, one being the world this game takes place in. 4. For some reason the greater will can't physically interact with everything at once? So it needs different tools to enact it's will? 5. There is a time where the lands between is not ruled by the greater will? Possibly the frenzy is already on the lands between? 6. This is a time where life forms merge and share traits via the "crucible"? 7. The greater will sends emissaries to enact it's will on the lands between. The first being the finger mother, the two fingers, the little fingerling things, etc. It also sends down the Elden Beast after and this leads to the elden ring which is a physical manifestation of the greater wills order? 8. Certain vassals are chosen to contain the elden ring, maybe there were more before the dragons, but the first I know is the dragons... Placidusex is an Elden Lord, probably under the Elden Beast bringing in prosperity for dragons. 9. Somehow during this time there are also a bunch of other forces. There are "aliens" from space that also come to the lands between, there are giants, there are remnants from the crucible who are still merged men "the horned beasts, crucible knights, the omen, etc". 10. Somehow Marika ascends to godhood, maybe this serpent business has something to do with the dragons? Are serpents and dragons not similar? 11. Anyways somehow Marika ascenda to godhood Placidusex gets kicked to the curb and the age of dragons ends and Marikas age begins. 12. Marika uses her children to go on wars snuffing out groups she doesn't like. 12.5. oh yeah she also splits herself in two at some point becoming radagon and Marika, these are two different entities originating from the same person. 13. There is also an Erdtree that is a symbol of the greater wills connection to the lands between? But there is also a counterpart shadow tree created as well? 14. Over time some of Marikas children start to betray her, or they are cursed in some way. 15. Miquella tries to become a god himself, he creates the Haligtree, he causes wars. 16. Ranni has a plot to kill godwyn the golden. Leaving him in unending death or something. (Wait Ranni lost her body but kept her soul, while godwyn lost his soul but his body is undying, hmmmm sounds similar to what you are talking about with sacrifices to godhood). 17. This leads to the shattering, for some reason Marika is done and decides to shatter the Elden Ring, which messes with the connection from the Greater Will. Radagon tries to put it all back together but can't. 18. Our tarnished comes along, etc. etc. I am no lore expert but if there was a timeline that would be great. This is how I understand the story so far.... In general....
amazing video and analysis. i really love the "almost inverse twist" of the original sin. i have three points id like to add to the discussion 1. I don't think Ranni was that privy of the way of becoming a god. Her plan on killing godwyn and herself were directly stated to get rid of her empyrian status and rid herself of her two fingers to try to trick this system. I also think i remember her being surprised that we stayed at her side to become her consort and was actually planning on going through with her plan alone (if thats fuzzy or up to debate ill look again where i got that idea from). So it ended up being more a "happy accident" that everything matched up in the end. Or rather - we learn in the dlc that the two fingers were connecting to the greater will via their mother metyr and she is actually already disconnected, so they work on old information (seeking the divine gate) while ranni is guided by the stars, which could be interpreted as a more direct link to the greater will. So in a cruel twist of fate the greater will used her wish to not be a puppet to get rid of the defunct two fingers and become their god in a different way. 2. i disagree with the interpretation of marika destroying the elden ring to stop ranni. I dont recall any information suggesting that she even knew ranni was behind the night of black knives. The biggest indicator for me that her motives were different is her imprisoning hewg and tasking him to smith a weapon to kill a god. She also created the tarnished speficially with the task to come back when needed seemingly way earlier. I believe Marika grew desperate over her golden order starting to fail: the age of plenty had stopped and ppl started to loose faith, Radagon seemed to grow into his own person and started taking control more and more and with godwyns death and the rise of those who live in death she sensed her order doomed. In the end, she rather wanted it all to end than be overtaken by radagon, who in turn sealed the erdtree to try to cling to his former order. 3. As a theory on how Marika managed to not only be spared the usual jar-treatment of her people but also rise as high as becoming the consort is, that she was already in touch and chosen by her two fingers. We know that she was an empyrian - literally meaning she was chosen by her two fingers - before becoming a god and there are finger ruins right next to the shaman village. I think its likely that she recieved the minor erdtree (or something similar) before she became a god, since its description says it was "the power of gold without order". We also know that gold was already reveered in the age of the crucible from various sources. So the hornsent might have seen the "gold in her" and thus chose her. (sorry for the long text)
I like your idea about the GW still managing to get its own way using Ranni as a puppet to get around the fingers and their social position. Maybe this is a point where the Elden Beast is also abandoned just like Metyr once was, and in a possible sequel we'll deal with whichever divine offspring the GW now decides will best serve its purposes. On Marika, the thing that sticks in my mind is that she manipulates the direction of grace to bring back Godfrey and seemingly tries to have him in place to defeat you, now that you've done her dirty work and cleared the way. So the question is, which God did she really want to slay? Radagon so she could be free of him? Or the Elden Beast to regain freedom? Ranni if she managed to attain godhood!? (No, not that one). I still can't imagine it was for herself. The finger ruins are interesting in the sense of how it positions Metyr in the Shadow Realm. The fingers don't seem to command the same respect- they're nothing but ruins and graveyards. I think Marika is actively using them for her own ends rather than actually setting any faith in them.
@@EriksLore first of all thanks for going through my early-hour-no-sleep ramblings ^^ Ranni IS accompanied by a celestial body ^^ The Guidence of Grace is a really interesting topic. if we keep in mind that all the events leading up to the dlc (the wars of the demigods, miquella cocooning himself, getting mogh to simp, etc.) happen WAY after the shattering and her imprisonment its interesting to think about how exactly it works and how much direct control Marika has over it in her current state. It is also possible that Radagon also may be able to manipulate grace, as he was also seemingly able to fool gideon to think "Queen Marika has high hopes for us. That we continue to struggle, unto eternity."
@@EriksLore I think Marika is interested in seeing which Tarnished is the most powerful, so as to determine who is the best warrior to send against the Elden Beast. Radagon is a threat too of course, but Marika's main goal is the Elden Beast, and she might already believe that both the Tarnished protagonist and Godfrey can single-handedly defeat Radagon.
Perhaps both? If it leads to the Golden Primeval current! Ever noticed the poor jar Shamans almost resemble Graven Masses that Sellen produced? What did Sellen obsess over? The Primeval Current! Sellen. Sellia ( unseen sorcery ). Ever heard of Celadon? It's green known in pottery. It's so green it can be gold or white. Some Celadon pottery is almost white gold. It's called the unseen green. I believe that gate leads to it.
I am pretty dubious of the snake connection, among other things but an interesting video. What is missing here is how the Elden Beast fits. We are told directly that it is a vassal of the Greater Will and probably the physical manifestation of the Elden Ring. I have my own thoughts on how it relates but they are just that.
I think it's more likely inspired by Lothric and Lorian in DS3. It would have been a fairer fight if they'd copied the mechanics and made Miquella more vulnerable to damage!
Godfrey uses a move (the stomp) that's also used by Hornsent soldiers, implying a connection. The same way Radahn uses a single blood magic from Mohg, Godfrey uses a single move inherited from his new body. And they showed us that the body can be reshaped into the prime version of the Lord, so Godfrey's vessel looks like himself, rather than a Hornsent. P.S.: Also, Serosh was in Godfrey's back to supress his battlelust. I wonder what Kind Muquella is supressing while on Radahn's back...
as the son of a seamstress at 18:15 marika pulls out sheer translusent fabric. with gold edges not golden threads. if you look closely you can see a semi-translusent edge of the fabric coming out the torso of whatever is there at the bottom of the cloth. also notice how marika is show with a cloth draped behind her all ALL of her statues? but when we do see her shes caught in the elden beasts light spear grab move stuck in suspended animation. a theory i read from ziostorms channel is that marika pulls the fabric out from a hornsent that she used infront of the gate of divinity to cast the lands of shadow which existed in the dead center of the lands between (suppressing pillar and the cloud over the ocean in the base game map) to cast a shadow spell which threw the entire region into a different space. hence the creation of the scadutree which is said to be literally the erdtrees shadow. said scadutree is too similar to the tree marika used to seal ener-ilim as per grandams words.
At around 21:00, I'd just like to point out that as far as scholars/historians are concerned, it's fairly certain that in the original version/language of the story is that Eve was made from half of Adam, rather than just a single bone, making the two equal. Also, the serpent that Rykard feeds himself to is NEVER called the "Abyssal Serpent", at best it's known as a Serpent God. It might be that it's name is Eiglay given the Grace in the boss room of the Godskin Noble in the Volcano Manor but, that's a different topic. The Serpant is said to have existed for a long time, being "forgotten" until Rykard found out about it. Maybe it was active when Marika was rising to power (though why is there no mention of subdoing it then?) or maybe it existed long before the Elden Beast arrived, before Placidusax was an Elden Lord.
Shadow of the Erdtree finally convinced me the lore of Elden Ring is truly indecipherable. I want it to make sense, but it just doesn't. It seems like everyone has a wildly different take on even the most basic plot points. I get that the point is anyone can have their own interpretation, but now that the whole story is complete and it seems we'll never have definitive answers for anything, it just doesn't feel gratifying. I still have no clue what Marika's actual motivations were, how she became a god, or what role Godfrey played. I feel like we learned next to nothing about Marika. The Minor Erdtree incantation has all sorts of potential implications. For all we know, she could have killed everyone in Shaman Village herself. Or it could have been the Hornsent. We don't know whether she was ever put into a jar, or if she betrayed her people to the Hornsent to be used for jarring, or even the purpose for the jarring. Some people think they were trying to create their own god or saint, while others insist that "saint" is a bad translation and that there's no implied religious connotation. What happened to a god requiring a lord? They could have done something with the parallel between Marika choosing a mighty warrior like Godfrey, and Miquella choosing Radahn, but instead we get nothing regarding Godfrey whatsoever. Also, I really don't think that thing in the trailer was a snake. Snakes usually aren't made of sewn-together fabric. But then again, I guess we'll just never know WHAT that thing was. I could go on for hours listing inconsistencies and completely unexplained plot threads, or how next to nothing from the base game was even mentioned a single time in the DLC. None of it makes any sense. Ratatoskr was right years ago, the lore is impossible to decipher.
I agree with this take and while i love the overall lore and plot of the game, there is way too much missing information in almost every single plot point. For example Messmer, how does one get born with snakes inside them? Why does he look exactly like a Godskin apostle? Why are both his and his snake's left eye closed? What exactly is the Abyssal Serpent and what relationship has with Rykard's snake? The more important a character seems to be, the more confusing their lore is in Elden Ring. All their games have confusing lore, but Elden Ring is confusing from start to finish.
@@angeltzepesh1 I don't really think there is any connection between the base/abyssal serpent within Messmer and the serpent that devoured Rykard, which is all the more frustrating. I imagine Messmer has some kind of curse, or was born a vessel to another entity like Malenia. But we don't know enough about what Marika did to necessarily warrant her bloodline being cursed. I know she replaced Messmer's eyeball as an infant to hide the serpent aspect of him. When he rips it out and crushes it, it seems to fully release his serpent form. I think the big snake is missing an eye because it's just him turning into a big snake, if that makes sense. And yeah, all the Soulsborne games were cryptic and confusing, but not to this level. The community can't even agree on a basic timeline of events in ER, which was never really the case in previous games.
@@Galamoth06 my personal theory is that Messmer and Melina were cursed by someone that had a connection with serpents, just like Mohg/Morgott(by hornsent) and Malenia/Miquella(by Romina/God of Rot) got cursed by Marika's past enemies. My bet is on Gloam-eyed Queen, since her Godskins have serpentine features(she might have them too) and she is also the wielder of the Black Flames, while being a past enemy of Marika. Both Messmer and Melina have a flame power(this could be a curse from the Fell God of Giants, but Messmer's is too dark to resemble that), Melina got the Destined Death powers and Messmer got the serpentine powers. In the end this is entirely my headcanon and i dont have proof for a lot of claims, but there isnt anything to deny it either, so i choose to stick to this explanation for why Messmer got cursed by a serpent.
My stupid headcanon is that Marika, because of the themes of seduction and betrayal and very very christian undertones is a version of Eve who accepted "Evil". The reason why I think that Marika took the grace from a serpent in the beginning of the trailer and it being her supposed partner in marriage is that Miyazaki being a fan of doing goofy wordplays. It´s Marika's name. Marika Mari-ka Marry Ka Who knows, maybe Miyazaki is a fan of the Junglebook.
This is a great analysis of the various potential inspirations for the Gate of Divinity, the stories told through architecture, and the like! To add to a detail about the gate, the ropes around it might actually be shimenawa, items used in Shinto rituals to keep places pure and to call kami into objects, known as yorishiro. As such, the Gate of Divinity might be meant to call a god to it, and that divine force then elevates someone, presumably an Empyrean, into godhood. This could also relate to Enir-Ilim's name, since the "enir" part might mean "house of weariness," like with the Mesopotamian goddess Antu. In this case, rather than being a bedchamber for a person seeking godhood, the tower would be made for a deity such as an outer god. The tower would present itself as a place for an outer god to rest, and from there, an Empyrean would try to seek divine power from the outer god in exchange for becoming its servant. That could explain the top of the gate and its alignment with the tower's light source. The top of the gate is like a basin for a star to rest in, and the opening could allow for pouring some of its strength or blessing upon an Empyrean, relating to the point you mentioned about ancient blessings often being in liquid form. This could also relate to Marika serving the Greater Will, the Dark Moon seemingly being Ranni's benefactor that has "fates" held over her through the stars, and St. Trina's comment about Miquella being a "caged divinity", with an implication that something is keeping him imprisoned. As for Marika's ritual at the gate, there seem to be sewn slits around the opening of what she reaches into that are reminiscent of the mouth of a sack or bag. These would allow for threading a cord and adjusting the size of the opening. As for the item within, whatever object is inside seems to have the texture of mammal skin, rather than a reptilian eye. The hornsent also curiously lack any serpents, or even reptiles, in their culture, so they might not have tried elevating a snake to godhood. In fact, while this could just be based on the nature of Messmer or the abyssal serpent, the hornsent warrior in Leda's group might imply that the hornsent despise serpents. The warrior says the following if summoned for Messmer's defeat: "Upon his end, did you see Messmer's face? Twas sublime - a very tangle of snakes! To think he dared to call us savages. When he himself was most base of all. Ha ha ha ha!" Regarding Marika's hatred of snakes, it might stem from Messmer being cursed by the abyssal serpent, which is seemingly after his other potential curse, the flame that he detests. The God-Devouring Serpent, implied to be a separate snake since the Serpent-Hunter reacts to it but not the abyssal serpent, also seemingly traps bodies and souls. Souls trapped by the God-Devouring Serpent are apparently forced to be weapons too, per Rykard's Rancor and how he repurposed it from ancient Gelmir hexes. This would impede efforts to bring souls to the Erdtree, and it might remind Marika of the "blending" jars used to massacre her people. Additionally, if Marika created Radagon to usurp the gate's ritual at the last moment, there would still be the matter of him possibly being placed in a third party's body for the ritual. If Radagon was in this separate person's body, that potentially permanent physical separation would clash with the later fact of him and Marika sharing the same body. Even if Radagon did have a separate body at some point, such as during his marriage to Rennala, it might have been one created by Marika outright and thus one she could reassimilate later on. As for whether the gate can ascend anyone, I think being an Empyrean is still relevant. Melina theories aside, of the three characters we meet who are or can become gods, all of them are Empyreans. Marika and Miquella used the Gate of Divinity, and in light of Miquella's appearance and specific words, Ranni may have also somehow used the gate or an equivalent. Miquella's four arms give a new context to Ranni's extra limbs, perhaps a mark of outright divinity rather than just a carryover from Liurnia's combat mannequins. Miquella also speaks of a "thousand-year voyage" like Ranni, and tells a fully-charmed Tarnished "let us go together" before they kneel, Ranni's exact words in the (default) Age of Stars ending as the Tarnished kneels to her. Both Ranni and Miquella discard their Great Runes as well, and Miquella's is shattered into a nigh-unusuable state. If something similar happened with Ranni's Great Rune, that would explain why no one in the Lands Between seems interesting in finding it or, if a Tarnished such as Vyke or Bernahl acquired the rune, retrieving it. Leda also notes that "Kindly Miquella is, after all, the true golden child. Even if he discards every last drop of his being, his lineage will always remain." Perhaps this means that Miquella cannot outright discard being an Empyrean, even by tearing apart his very soul, be it what corresponds to his eyes or even concepts like love, doubt, and fear. Finally, regarding Marika's motive for shattering the Elden Ring, I think it's neither grief over the Night of the Black Knives nor fearing being overthrown. We learn from the "echoes" of Marika that she planned to create a brutal war that could kill all of the demi-gods if they don't become an Elden Lord or god, offering only those options for a demi-god to save him or herself. The Tarnished were always meant to be part of that plan, at least if the demi-gods didn't succeed first, but Leda's Rune implying that she's a Tarnished could indicate that the Tarnished were present even during the Shattering. Plus, if shattering the Elden Ring will cause the Elden Beast to severely punish Marika, she'll be even less able to prevent being overthrown if Ranni, Miquella, or Malenia decide to succeed her in the normal way and announce this decision to the Two Fingers. Radagon also keeps the path to the Stone Platform shut, apparently in defiance of Marika's goal, so it's likely not her who is seeking to hold onto power. As far as Marika's motive is concerned, she seemingly just wants to kill the Elden Beast, whether she feels betrayed by it, oppressed by it, or both. Marika apparently isn't concerned about that potentially killing her in the process, and since the guidance of Grace will still appear to Tarnished afflicted with the Frenzied Flame, Marika might not care what happens afterward even if someone like Melina does. Thanks again for an insightful video! Analyzing and discussing From Software's games, stories, and settings is always a joy.
