"Nothing makes an expert in any field or endeavor as much as practice and practice again, along with an ongoing commitment to consistency and, learning from one's mistakes and not making them again" - me
As a former auto mechanic/technician/engine builder I appreciate auto body mechanics that take the time to do quality work. I don't have the patience to work on metal body cars. I am pretty good with fiberglass cars.Thanks for the video.
@@LakesideAutobody I just came in from the garage after welding the new pieces of steel in place. Not pretty but with some grinding it is going to be a patch that should last the rest of this truck's life. Forgot to turn on the gas and had the dials wrong but welds turned out better after that. Learning as I go. Thanks.
@@joelongrid7625 That's great to hear. I'm sure they'll be just fine. What are you going to do with the bed - paint it ,.put in a bed liner, spray on bed liner?
Back in 1968 I took a '56 Ford wagon (family car since '57) to a body shop I respected to "have all the rust replaced and put in primer". When I got it back and was starting to do other work on it, I found masking tape sticking out from under body filler inside the drivers side rear door. I started pealing the tape and body filler out to find NO metal had been installed! Just masking tape over the holes and filler on top. I was most willing to pay for METAL to be installed! Since then I started learning how to do my own metal work, etc. Damned proud of the repairs I learned how to do. Most body shops can't afford to do what's needed for a proper repair because the customer won't want to pay for it. And, for 'throwaway cars", that makes sense. Not for a car or truck the owner want's to keep for a very long time.
@@LakesideAutobody True! I've even learned how to do lead work for certain applications. Standard body filler in thicknesses less that 1/8th of an inch will last 'forever' if sealed correctly. And with "USC All-Metal" and Bondo "Bondo-Glass" fiberglass based body fillers, used in some applications, moisture can be negated to ruin work later in the life of the repair. At 69, I'm still doing rust repair for people and metal repairs for myself. Gotta love it to do it! 😁
@@jessejohnson159 With those skills, you can drive almost any car you've ever wanted. Nothing's better than walking in the next day after a paint job dries and unmasking the car. The smell, the shine, the feel of fresh smooth paint. Good times - Happy Holidays
@@LakesideAutobody I also get lot's of satisfaction from doing a near perfect metal repair on older cars and trucks where the repair will last for a very long time. Happy Holidays to you and yours at Lakeside!
thanks for making this video, really helpful. I do heavy fabrication and have been curious how you guys weld on such thin sheet metal, I have an old Volvo that needs some patching and feel confident now about giving it a shot
I have a few good rust hole videos coming up next week so they will probably help you out a lot - Quarter Panel Rust Repair - Front or Back of Wheel. Jerry
Lakeside: Just to share, I made a heavy duty trailer about 40 years ago. I used 20 ga. for the flat sided fenders. I didn't have a long sheet bender, and ended up building them in three sections, then brazing the lap joints with a silver alloy solder. That trailer has thousands of miles on it now in all kinds of Ohio weather. Its spent its whole life outside in the elements and those damn fenders have never rusted. They are also strong enough for a man to walk on. Appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
Thank you so much for that story - lots of folks think that somehow a small overlap is going to rust instantly - it doesn't - the whole car is lap welded or pinch welded together at the factory and it lasts a good ten years before any rust starts.
Bondo has proven to hold up just fine , if used correctly like here .... all metal can crack , it’s not as plyable.... thus guy is awesome and cares , it’s clear ....
I'm not trying to be rude by any means, I just wanted to add that it's a really good idea to push the first coat of body filler down really firm. And pull it in all directions possible to make sure its pressed firmly into any voids around the welds... too, pressing the filler down firm helps to keep shrinkage from showing up so badly around the welded patch areas. And ALWAYS WHEN POSSIBLE...... put epoxy on the backside, and once its dry, scuff it with red scotch brite and put seam sealer over the back side of your patch. This keeps the rust from coming back and also ensuring the body filler wont pop off.
@@LakesideAutobody i have a 1983 dodge b250 that im working on. Ive stopped at a couple bodyshops to get an idea of what it would cost to have them fix 2 separate rust spots.. of the 3 ships I stopped at, 3 of them didnt take me seriously. Basically I was told this isnt a hotrod/muscle car/ collectors car or whatever and its not worth working on. Im building a van thats been in my mind for 20 something years. And im definitely serious. I have money. And I want the work done. The spots that need repair are not difficult to get to. In my novice opinion. They should be pretty common repairs. And easy enuff to do that Ive been contemplating doing it myself. I just cant help thinking that a bodyshop would produce better results and thats what I want.
The best way to repair a rusted panel, cut and weld in new piece of metal. It will last longer than using Bondo fibre filler. Great job. I like your work.
This is not great advice. This is shortcuts that do not yield a durable job. Lap welds die quickly of condensate and just start the whole process over again.
Good work. I learnt a couple of things there. What about the rust on the inner wing ? or treatment of the inner wing ? Did you weld the back of the repair to join the gap ?
I purposely left it open but I used to also repair the inner panel too. Leaving it open allows salt water and debris to exit easily and not get trapped. Your choice. I like a solid inner panel but lots of drainage.
Thanks so much for the support. This really is the standard procedure for rust repair in Michigan body shops. I worked at some very good quality body shops with great reputations and this is how it was done and how they still do it there. There are some shops that use adhesives for certain types of rust repair too. It's good to know every method and use the method that fits the repair and I will be providing those on this channel. Again, glad you liked it and thanks. Have a good weekend. BTW - like the "limestone cowboy" name - good channel too :)
Thank you for this very well done video. I'm wondering if it would be okay if you just spot welded the plate say a dozen times like you did at first and then just work it from there. Would that be okay? I know you're asking why would I want to do that. But just to say if I needed to just use a minimum amount of welding wouldn't that work alright if I filled and shaped it well after that. Thank you for your time.
That would be perfectly fine - that's how we did it most of the time where I worked. I weld it up solid in the videos because I get a lot of negative comments about it... I feel it lasts just as long 'casue it rusts from the bottom up anyway.
I agree! When I weld sheet metal I always seem to get burn through holes. I think all those extra close knit tacks are overkill. As long as the sheet metal is secure. Of course if this were a structural piece or needed to hold fluid that would be a different story.
@Sheps Yep. I've had good luck both ways. Welds right next to each other or leave space. As long as you tap the seam down and fill with either fiberglass reinforced filler or even regular filler you'll be fine. This vid will help on knocking the seams down - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-lVkg7SgTw30.html
Dave, I used to work the same as you. This is a get in get out fast an cheap job. Though I am now retired I have gone back to Oxy Acetylene welding, best for dirty rusty metal. An a bit of a breeze does not affect it. Mig is great for beginners working on nice clean new metal. As to Bondo etc, only to be used for filling Dinks.
On holes like that I've always put the piece behind and run the "puddle" into the factory, usually thinner gauge. Guess it doesn't matter, looks good. Can't beat the smell of bondo!
marcus w >You are right on the money with you idea. Sheet metal is a different challenge from frames, exhaust and other mechanical task. Unfortunately, the job required makes this drive wheel expensive as the drill the hole in large bar stock, broach the key-way, center it in the chuck and make several passes to achieve a concentric O.D., cut 1/2 of the 0.023”, then cut it loose with a parting tool. Other that, it’s easy. I wish! But, I just wanted to tell you thanks for the excellent idea. Hopefully, I could take my drive wheel into a welding supply and get lucky with something they have or could order. I have shim stock in my tool box down to 0.001” used back on vehicles to go 1 under and 2 under on the other bearing shells. A trick we used in the late 60’s and early 70’s from a 23 Chrysler tech who works 11 years at a speed shop. He and I build his shop behind his house, put one air/oil lift and could close the doors with a school bus and two cars inside. Carl was the nicest man I ever met and has since passed. Auto ASE Master since 78, now retired. Thanks much!
@@deankay4434 Its allways possible to buy another welding machine and sell the old one...or buy an extra. I am from Sweden and I payed 250 usd for ar mig/ mag welder.if you use gas then you skuld have drive wheels produced for solid wire..flux wire wheels has a rougher surface in order to get a better grip. DO NOT hav to much tension on de drive wheels ...when you feed wire perpenedicular to a surface then there should allmoust be slippage on the drive wheels. If not the thinner 0.023 wire tend to buckle near the drive wheels
Here's a good video on the truth about lab and butt weld for auto body - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JIIonJOVro4.html You'll eventually go with lap for every repair if you do the work long enough - with lap you can fix any rust hole - see the videos coming up on "Extreme Rust Hole Repairs" - right around March 2023
@@tonygoshive785 You're welcome - It's good to be proficient in both butt and lap as you'll certainly use both depending on the situation - nice talking to you :)
Please see this video for longevity of this type of repair if done correctly: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8XaZBy7GC7A.html or ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2o37dX--w0I.html It really is the best method and the only practical way to do it. Metal is only 6 hairs thick so you can't be trying to metal finish patches with a grinder - you'll end up with paper thin welds and adjacent metal. Hope that helps :)
@@PaulDali009 You have to knock the metal joint down and fill it with filler. Also at the point where the patch overlaps, seems like a natural place to accumulate more rust, cause the metal is lapped. Ever notice a door skin where its lapped at the bottom from the factory, there is always rust.
With respect, that's not true. Please watch these 2 short vids - let me know what you think. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2o37dX--w0I.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8XaZBy7GC7A.html
I drive older cars and trucks I even spray the frame of my 1976 vette and all suspension components the car frame look like new after 38 years .Also own a 1992 tracker 4x4 looks like new oil it annually driven in rust belt ,only draw back is if you need to weld
As a body,paint guy myself.Its 150 dollars labor for repair and spot paint,plus 100 bucks material.but many professional shops charge 500 bucks for this same repair.
After the repair is finished - I like to either coat the back with undercoating if I can reach it - If not I squirt some used motor oil inside the panel near the repair which eventually coats everything around the patch like an old valve cover - nice and greasy - never rusting
How about if the repair was a qaurter panel how would you make inside look like it was never a repair. Love the video, and I believe shops will do exactly what you did on video
@@tony1798 On this repair, I cut out the rust on the inner panel and just left it open so that salt water and debris could exit easily. On a customer car or classic car you would repair the inner panel also, undercoat the back and make that look nice too. Hope that answers you ?
Thank goodness I got my vehicle in Texas so it has virtually no rust but I notice you can dang near see through the entire vehicle due to rust holes when they are driven in snowy areas
@@marcushennings9513 Absolutely. Living in the rust belt is tough. The salt used on the roads really mess cars and trucks up - brake lines, fuel lines, tanks, body panels - all take a beating.
Please direct the viewer to a video fixing this type of damage with your method - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-36zkc9UQaTs.html or this ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-HiwVTSYFgB4.html also see this video for more information on these types of repairs - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8XaZBy7GC7A.html
You shouldn't be spreading body filler over bare metal. Should at least use metal etching primer over steel. That repair patch should be butt welded to fender with weldable primer underneath.
Absolute Baloney ! A thick layer of body filler is as good as High Build Primer, and there is no logic to applying filler on top of primer when better adhesion is guaranteed onto bare metal ! Primer is alleged to be hygroscopic, and Body Filler is not !
Back when I was young, I bought a brand new 1978 Chev van. The front of the hood rotted out something fierce! The dealership body shop repaired it multiple times over the rust warranty period and they filled the area in with lead (which I was totally shocked at!)! I doubt they cut much, if any of the rusted metal out first and then totally repainted the entire hood. I recall pleading with them to just let me buy a new hood and have them paint it. It should have saved a ton of labor! They would not oblige me and just kept repairing until they didn't have to! Being young, I didn't fight them on it. Now I am a crusty old man and would love to take a run at them! LOL Nice job on the video btw!
Yep - today, you wouldn't stand for it. They would probably see it in your eyes and not even challenge you. I think a lot of young people get burned like that - it's a darn shame too 😢
It's your choice really. My philosophy is this: New quarters, rockers, door skins are all installed with lap or plug welds. The auto industry uses 5000 welds on average per car and none of them are butt welds. If a new car lasts 10 years driving in salt water so will a lap welded repair if done right. Plus, there's not a rust hole out there that can't be fixed easily with a combo of butt and lap. You'd spend way too much time grinding the welds flush on really big rust repairs and I know you'd end up with paper thin welds and paper thin adjacent sheet metal. One more thing - It wouldn't fly in a body shop and you would soon be let go for being slow, wasting discs, and looking crazy trying to butt weld stuff. Really! pls see this vid - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8XaZBy7GC7A.html
Lakeside Autobody If its a crappy beater car I get it, but a proper rust repair should be butt welded. I get what you say about time to grind welds flush and yes it’s time consuming and yes the adjacent metal can get thin if you are not good. I guess I’m just in the restoration mindset where lap welding patch panels is not acceptable.
@@stricht8 With respect, how can you guarantee the thickness of your work after you grind it flush. I promise there is paper thin areas in the welds and the adjacent metal. No one's a robot welder. Plus, I never see you guys fix anything bigger than a 2x2 inch perfect square, you never show the back side, or the whole process like you're hiding something (filler, primer etc) I know what the back of a lap repair looks like - 22 gauge metal. Would you butt weld a new rocker panel, quarter panel, or door skin on? Heck no - it's all lap. So lap weld here yet butt weld there - ???? Nice talking with you - Jerry
This is how a untrained on the side guy might do a patch ,it's NOT how QUALITY shops would ever patch a panel . Weld it 100% tigh to keep moisture from getting to the back , ten use water tight marine filler first ., Never lap on the outside of a panel ,if you can't fit it to make quality butt welds , put it inside the panel
See these videos for information on why the highest quality Michigan/Detroit area body shops use this method: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JIIonJOVro4.html *** Also see Eastwood’s explanation: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rpH50kh4W00.html *** For longevity of this type of repair see: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8XaZBy7GC7A.html
I don't know what you at lakeside auto body seen in your Eastwood demo , but it sure looks like a nice but weld with an edge bent in it with the special vise grips. Again as I said if it's actually welded with correct penetration then when it's ground down the weld is not compromised ,the weld is actually still thicker then the material you welded because the is penetrated reinforcement on the back side still. If the back side of the weld doesn't look like the front side it really isn't welded correctly. If you have a piece of sheet metal lapped on top of a panel that spot will always be to high unless you beat the whole area down and fill like crazy with Bondo.
@@billpickelheimer8142 For longevity of this type of repair see: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8XaZBy7GC7A.html Honestly you won't find larger body shops butt welding patch panels - that's more of a tv/magazine thing because they want people to believe that cars are fixed w/o filler in the "best shops"
A man who takes pride in his work! Looks great. Here is a stupid question - is it imperative that you remove that panel from the vehicle before doing work like this?
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and creating these videos. Think I can speak for everyone in that we truly appreciate the effort it takes to make videos. Merry Christmas 🎄
To help if you're serious - butt weld / metal finish is not real world. See these videos for information on why the highest quality Michigan/Detroit area body shops use this method: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JIIonJOVro4.html *** Also see Eastwood’s explanation: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rpH50kh4W00.html *** For longevity of this type of repair see: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8XaZBy7GC7A.html
@@LakesideAutobody OK, so you are trying to tell me that you left the rust inside (visible in 0:52) with no protection whatsoever, welded in the missing piece and you are calling it a quality rust repair? Where is the protection on the inside of the patch? Come on... by welding the way you did it you introduced a potential, intermediate layer (again left unprotected), where the moisture will gather. You know what will happen next. I agree that very often there is no way to see the other side, but when I do repair stuff like that I always make sure that I have an access to the other side to apply a proper cavity wax, not an used engine oil (!). This type of repair, here in Europe, is the cheapest and the quickest you can get. People do it when they are about to sell the car and they do not want to generate too much of a cost. Hope you get my point. P.S. the filler is hygroscopic, you DO NOT apply it directly on metal (even if the manufacturer claims it is possible - this is to make you think that you can do it cheaper, easier and quicker). You always put a good quality primer first.
@@sun_of_a_gun I get your point but It would benefit you to listen to a guy that's been studying rust for lots of years. Here's the things I know for sure: 1) Cavity wax plugs drains and prevents drainage 2) drainage is the most important think in preventing rust again. 3) that back can be repair or it can be cut if a way that allows for drainage. 4) Lap welding works 5) glues work 6) butt welding and metal finishing doesn't work 7) treat the repair AFTER the paint job with something that "creeps" - continues to get into all the seams, cracks, etc. 8) The panel has to be able to dry on the inside and not stay moist. 9) Almost all rust starts at the bottom of the panel where the salt water and debris settles. 10) I can always learn from old guys who've seen everything and have worked in a body shop for their whole career. Nice talking to you and again I get where your coming from - it's always good to repair the inner panel too - should have addressed that but this is an old vid and didn't think folks would pick stuff apart - just wanted to show the process. Jerry
I’m sorry but how is butt welding not the real world, i work in the restoration industry and I butt weld everything I do, never use mig, always gas or tig and to stop the so called warping I planish the shrink out of the weld , the lap weld is just a bodge and despite the fact you’ve worked in the trade for a long time this does not mean your methods are right at all. The only other thing is why did you splice the patch when you could of just stretched the edge with your hammer and had the same effect In one piece
Quick question l like the idea of welding the patch in,sometimes a person isn't able to seal from the back side and after a short while l end up getting water bubbles under the paint, how do you seal behind to keep moisture out? Thank you for the great video 👍
First - do you knock the patch down? If not, it will likely fail. Another thing you can do is make sure your welds are right next to each other - no space between. Allow for drainage even if you have to drill or cut slots or something. Finally after the repair try this if you can't seal the back side with undercoat or paint - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8XaZBy7GC7A.html Let me know if any of that helps :)
Nice, easy explanation. What would you do on the underside of the lip to keep water from rusting it out. Would do more welding or some sort of sealer? Thanks Ray
What if you have a round rust hole? What if you come to an edge of a wheel well - just sort or stuff it up in there? What if you run into a pinch weld at the bottom of a rocker panel. That's a good thought but it doesn't work most of the time. Learn one good way and do it the same every time - you'll get good that way. This is how it's done in professional shops and there's good reason for it. See these videos for information on why the highest quality Michigan/Detroit area body shops use this method: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JIIonJOVro4.html *** Also see Eastwood’s explanation: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rpH50kh4W00.html *** For longevity of this type of repair see: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8XaZBy7GC7A.html
@@LakesideAutobody I really don't know what you're talking about, i was a panel beater when we used to use lead as a filler before bog came in, so i think i know what im talking about too. Im not sure you understood what i said. My way worked every time, and the panel welded is always under the main panel.
Absolutely, i couldn't believe the guy here was putting the patch on the OUTSIDE. I almost always butt weld , to avoid moisture traps, but if I lap, I put the patch inside.
This was done with a MILLER MILLERMATIC 90 - 110v, .023" wire, 75/25 mix gas on 20 cfh, wire speed on 35, heat or volts on 2 (out of 4). If you have more ?s - just ask :)
If done correctly it can last many years. Use small overlap, weld solid and you won’t have to worry about moisture and rust - especially if you keep the drain holes clean (most important thing in rust prevention). Note that the opening of the seam is upside down on the inside also. Please see this video for longevity of this type of repair if done correctly: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8XaZBy7GC7A.html or ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2o37dX--w0I.html
I think it would help but sheet metal can expand pretty fast and you may get a bit of buckling between the clamps. Every situation is a bit different so as long as you monitor it while you're welding you'll be fine. Weld till you see a bit of distortion and back off. Jerry
There's no advantage to priming before filling unless you are going to leave it outside in the elements for years. Body shops don't prime before filling as they know that the paint is the ultimate sealer of everything underneath. Again if you are going to leave bare metal exposed for a long time then OK - hit it with some epoxy primer or even regular primer. See this vid for more on that - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zGHxBr_LpzM.html
Great video. Would you ever use a die grinder with a sanding disc on it for those tricky to sand spots, or would you typically stick with the sanding blocks?
most guys I worked with used just two blocks - the 5" rubber block and a long board. Both used the same paper that comes on a roll. Body shops provided board paper and DA paper - that's it. You can use anything that works for you though :)
