How Corrupt was the Roman Senate Really? 

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“Politicians do not become corrupt, the corrupt become politicians.” To wheel and deal in those fancy halls.

So, the Roman Senate passed laws favoring the rich, who in turn stuffed the Senator's pockets. Not quite clear on the difference between their Senate and ours. As Will Rogers once said, "Congress are the best people money can buy".

I had to hit the like button just for the Ottawa Senators shade.

When I studied Roman history in college I was amazed to realize that Roman senators were really no different than mafia dons. Some things never change

Around 3:30 "The assemblies were meant to represent the will of the people, even though in practice is represented the wealthy" Not too dissimilar from most governments these days.

As a person who lives in Ottawa, your assessment of the Ottawa Snores is spot on.

".... Not to be confused with the Ottawa Senators, who are a bad hockey team." 😂😂🤣

I love how he thinks the US senate isn’t made up of our “elites”. 99% of them are Ivy league school graduates. They tend to come from money. Saying our senate is egalitarian is a stretch I can’t make.

So the senate had no terms limits, were primarily wealthy, and made a ton of money doing it. Some things just don’t change.

As a canadian, i love that you said Ottawa was a bad hockey team. To be clear though, no hockey team is as bad as Toronto. 😂

This touches on something about the separation of church and state that is often missed. Our secular civics education focuses on how religion can corrupt politics, but I argue that politics corrupts religion about 10x worse. Any true spiritual leader should want religion and government to be separate for the sake of the soul of their religious community. Any religious leader who is pushing church and state closer together isn't really serving their religion, they are serving personal political aspirations

Its interesting to note that the very people that started the downfall became rich, enjoyed yhe fame and had passed away by the time it actually fell.

Benjamin Franklin: "A republic, if you can keep it."

This gave me e a great idea for a new episode! Was there ever a senate that wasn't corrupt?

So, not much has changed.

A channel named Historia Civilius goes pretty in depth on roman history for folks that enjoy that kindof content.

Senators serving for a lifetime, at times passing their seat to their son, and using the levers and spoils of government to enrich themselves this is a good description of the modern US senate.

That's what I call a well-researched and exzellently presented documentary about the Roman Senat.

Legit lol'd at the Ottawa joke!

Anytime you say the senate it reminds me of Star Wars 1-3.

At least one of the unwritten rules of the Roman senate was that you had to have sponsored public works and/or infrastructure projects before you could be considered for higher office, which forced the rich to give back a little.

The augurs had the advantage of having run a lot of drills.

"While other senates are largely symbolic, such as the Canadian Senate. Not to be confused with the Ottawa Senators, a bad hockey team." Daaaaamn, did not see those shots getting fired 30 seconds into this video 🤣🤣🤣

No more corrupt than what you are seeing currently in so many places

🤔 Citizens United sounds the same: Unlimited campaign contributions from corporations. (Corporations are suddenly people and free speech is money) 2017 corporate tax is permanently reduced (people's tax cut ends 2025) Lobbying is legal, so you can pay to request laws to be written. Political debates for elections require campaign contribution minimums.

Great essay, thank you. The letters S.P.Q.R. are on every Roman coat of arms. The letters stand for Senatus PopulusQue Romanus, or "The Senate and the Roman Populus", to convey the strict relation the Senate had with the population...

They say guys think about the Roman Empire all the time. I think about the corruption of the senate, the expansionist warfare state, the bread and circuses. And sometimes I also think about how it was in Rome.

They consulted chickens on life or death matters. I think that's bad enough.

It should be mentioned that becoming a Senator previously required holding high office ( Quaestor/ Consul) , where the costs for elections required several fortunes, to "bribe" the public and all necessary people. - Most patrician families could not raise the necessary funds for generations, others went completely broke trying. Caesar himself had a many decades long history of massive debts, before his conquest ( as proconsul) of Gaul finally brought the huge payoff that made him the richest man of the city.

Sounds incredibly like American politics

Sens might actually be decent this year, but that's a hell of a reference 😂

What a lot of people don't realize is that the Roman Republican Senate never passed any laws and was not a legislative body. All laws in the Republican period were passed by votes by all citizens in the assemblies and in the Imperial period, laws were increasingly just enacted by the emperor. The Senate only ever had indirect control of the law by either choosing who could run for magistracies or controlling which laws could be voted on by citizens. They also advised the magistrates (which were other senators) on how to do their jobs. To become a senator, you had to be elected to a magistracy, which required votes from citizens. The reason they were all relatively rich is because of the Roman system of patronage in which less rich people worked for richer people until you get to the bottom of the ladder. So the richest guy tells his guys who and what to vote for and they pass it down the line.

What I thought was interesting that there never was a law saying Roman women couldn't be in the Senate it was just that the idea was so preposterous no one ever thought of passing a law saying women couldn't be in the Senate.

The Roman Senate sounds exactly like our modern Senate. I hope the point of this video wasn't to prove that they are different, because it they aren't.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Thank you, Simon & team. That was very informative.

My understanding is that in the latter part of the Republic the Plebeian Council gained more power against the Senate.

Wait is talking about the current Senate??? I thought this was about history. Weird

The Roman form of power can be likened to the Mafia families. And the Senate more like the Commission. During the times of weak kings, would be the equivalent of a war between the families. Such civil wars had gangs of thugs killing the rival family’s gang. Only a threat from outside, would cause them to reasonably assemble to face this external threat. Such as Carthage. Even then the the family that could muster the most soldiers could take over all Roman power and thus be a threat. Until finally they agreed to having a Capo di Tuti Capo. Or in other. Words a dictator. While generally, this would be of the most powerful family, the senate( commission), could decide that this protector could be toppled if they did not be fair to the other families. Even within this system, corruption was rife, with each family manipulating to gain more wealth and power. Such a situation caused more factions of alliances and corruption.

I swear you have more channels than Nick Cannon has kids 😂😂🤣🤣😁😁

"Not to be confused with the Ottawa Senators, a BAD hockey team" WEEZING

Now I just wanna hear Simon yell “I AM THE SENATE” 😂 0:32

Fantastic and timely.

I'm almost ashamed at how hard I laughed when the Ottawa Senators were mentioned "as a bad hockey team". Almost.

Point of information: the Tribunes of the Plebeian Assemblies could veto the Senate, performing checks and balances, that is until the late republic when social order began to break down.

Ottawa Senators out here catching strays. That was completely unprovoked and precisely targeted. OUCH!

Ooo! I dig at the Ottawa Senators hockey team. Well played, but ouch!

The Senatorial system really began to fall apart much early than Julius Caesar; The brothers Gracchi pushed it hard to give the plebians a voice and were killed for that. Gaius Marius did the same, and used the Plebian Assembly as a cudgel to give expand Citizenship beyond "The Romans of the Romans."; to provincials. Both of these populist movements paved the way for Caesar; who himself gained power as a bit of a populist (at least be Roman standards).

1:40 they had a super bus? More advanced than I gave them credit for.

I believe Romulus was technically not mythical, but rather was legendary.

The strength of the senate was that it allowed the roman state to be stable and create a deep, well experienced government structure. There was nothing like this at the time, most empires/civilisations could be overthrown simply by killing the king, or a few war lord types

1:32 When discussing the topic of Rome and providing Years best to label years ie. (bc or ad). When not mentioned usually the default is ad. Thanks

well, some modern politicians would agree with the roman overlap between church and state

Just when I stopped thinking about Rome, Simon pulls me back in.

What I heard in this video is that the Roman Senate was closer to the British House of Lords than to any modern Senate.

The democratic aspect of the Republic ironically stopped the senate from being more cosmopolitan. What the video doesn't really explain is how the senate was the collection of former elected magistrates. If you were elected as quaestor, the lowest of the elected ranks, you had a place in the senate. In order to vote for the magistrates, you had to be physically in Rome, standing in pens to be counted. So only those who could get to Rome could vote, favouring those candidates who were based in Rome and could campaign, or those who had prior fame in war or through ancestry. Those based outside Rome wouldn't stand a chance. In contrast, autocrats could appoint whoever they liked.

I feel like the video would have benfitted from acknowledging the penalties under Roman law for corruption. Bribery was a capital offense (though the guilty were usually able to avoid this through self-exile.) Citizens of the provinces were able to bring suit against corrupt magistrates-even when they were senators-and not infrequently won. The main points of the video are correct, but it's not so clear cut as it's presented.

"Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what's going to happen to us with both House and a Senate?" -- Will Rogers

As a fan of the Leafs, I approve Simon's subtle dig of the Ottawa Senators lol Well done and Go Leafs Go!

I've always enjoyed your videos for a suggestion I think you'd do one on Australia's holden car manufacturers history especially during WW2 justice

Superb-us, not Super-bus.

I liked the video, yes, but my like was given for the Ottawa Senators dig, very well timed!

So Simon just coming in here and throwing shade on the Ottawa Senators? How dare you 😅

Remember that modern ideas of "corruption" don't really apply to the Roman Republic. The Roman state was heavily built on client-patron relationships. Patronage (which we would consider "corruption") wasn't considered abnormal; it was the *basis* of Roman society.

The senate functioned as the top teir of the patronage system. Corruption is not the best way to discribe the deals that went on. Ellections were not secret. So the votes were public endorsements that were often long standing relationships.

“But Brutus was an honourable man”.

Misrepresents the distinction between Patricians and Plebeians. By the late Republic most Senators were Plebs. In fact the decline of the Republic was characterized by the steady decline of the power and privileges of the Patricians. Most of the Equestrians (equites, ordo equester) or 'knights' were Plebs. A better measure is the 'classes', 1st Class, 2nd Class, 3rd Class, 4th Class and 'capite censi' or 'Head Count'. After 300 B.C. half of the pontifex, priests, had to Plebeians. The 'priests' were elected by the 'Tribes' (take to long to get into that). All-in-all however much different from our government Rome was, as we are, ruled by an elite group of families, mostly wealthy, but none 'poor'. It was based then, as it is now, on connections and favoritism and was conducted to a greater or lesser extent for the benefit of the elite of which it was composed. One has to be careful to compare Roman government to our own, as our ideas are very different from those of the Romans, at fundamental levels. For example, the idea that any individual possessed any kind of 'rights' other than those based on mutual agreement and participation in that agreement (for example Roman 'citizenship') would have been total nonsense to a Roman, at any level of that society.

Ottawa is actually a rapidly rising hockey team. Of course, I'm a Wings fan so if you want to keep calling them bad I won't raise much fuss.

bad hockey team?!! How dare you sir! I will see your maple syrup rights rescinded .. good day to you sir!

I had to immediately come to the comments and see if anyone burst into flames (not the Calgary Flames) about the Hockey team........

Is that the Texas capital voting room ?

As someone who grew up in Ottawa, I laughed at line about the Senators being a bad hockey team. But I have to point out that Canada's senate isn't symbolic, though it is appointed. Their legislative power is the same as the American Senate and UK House of Lords.

Sens catching strays in the intro😂

Was anyone else already thinking about the Roman empire?

Raising charges against some long gone Roman Senate calls for some contemporary practical news.

Power is there for anyone willing to lower themself enough to pick it up

Fascinating - and almost fast enough to meet the thought change this history truly due 😃

Nothing changed in reality senate in most countries are out to protect the rich and there own lot

As someone watching from ottawa, I agree lmao

🤔 Wars made the senators wealthy? Wow, imagine if that's how the world still worked. There would be wars everywhere... wait... that is still how the world works. There are wars....everywhere. 😏

Poor Fact Boi can’t escape the Roman Empire.

I hate it when people use BCE and CE in replacement of AD and BC. It says a lot about a person.

I doubt there was ever any expectation to be "honest".

Wow. You are skipping back and forth across centuries within mere minutes. Condition varied tremendously across all this time. Your presentation makes it sound like conditions were the same regardless of year.

If I had a nickel every time I thought about the Roman Empire, I would have sooo many nickels.

So it's the same as the US senate today basically?

Ahhh, the Star Wars vibes. I AM THE SENATE.

"FVCK THE POOR!" -Roman Senate from _History of the World: Part I_

Simon, I’ve heard you mangle a lot of pronunciations over the years, but as a native Southern Californian I can’t let your pronunciation of Pt. MOOGOO stand. It’s point Mugu - sounds like Mugooo. Emphasis on the ending vowel. Cheers.

Sooo... The answer to the question is: Just a little more than the US is now. Don't give them another inch, people!

Many, if not most Western (and certainly Eastern!) countries have allocated religious positions within their ‘secondary’ legislative chambers..Senate equivalent. No more secular than ancient Rome, perhaps?

Proconsul is not an elected position - it's a gubernatorial title held by former consul; how hard is it to get your facts right? On the other hand I appreciate the fairly accurate description of the principate era pretense of the republic still existing.

The word "corruption" isn't relevant for Roman Senate. Because nepotism for Romans wasn't something bad or forbidden. For them it was absolutely natural using private ties in public life. In fact, the word "client" then had a totally different meaning. "Client" was a person who depended in his life on some higher person who used his wealth and influence for helping him. And in return the patron demanded loyalty and reciprocity from his clients. And this system permeated all spheres of public life. So - corruption? What corruption?

My favorite snarky Brit, right about now.

Corrupt enough that large number of people became beggars and someone overthrew the state and they didn't take any actions.

What about the Tribune of the Plebs and Aedile. This video completely waves away any plebeian agency and influence on Roman politics.

As imperfect as it was the Roman Senate really was the original template for modern representative democracy, almost the only one that the founding fathers and enlightenment thinkers could turn to. Also because ancient Athens was a direct democracy according to our modern definitions.

Ahh so this was why Simon was complaining about the Romans again.

like today's american senate ? ... that's impossible