How did Oromë get the Elvish Ambassadors (Ingwë, Finwë & Elwë) to Valinor? - Tolkien Lore

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We answer an interesting user Lore Question. Before the Great Journey of the Elves: how did Oromë got the Elvish Ambassadors, Ingwë, Finwë & Elwë, to the west continent Aman (to Valinor to be precise)?
Tolkien Reading Day 2023 Playlist:
• Tolkien Reading Day 20...
► Disclaimer:
I have permission of the artists to use their art works.
► Artwork and special thanks to:
Kimberly80 - deviantart.com/kimberly80
Ted Nasmith - tednasmith.com
Jenny Dolfen Art - / jennydolfen or goldseven.wordpress.com - etsy.com/de/shop/JennyDolfen
Sara Morello Art - deviantart.com/samo-art
Pete Amachree - artstation.com/summerpudding
Niahti - artstation.com/niahti
BeneF - deviantart.com/benef
Laura Tolton - deviantart.com/lauratolton
Andrés Bertachini Art - / andresbertachiniart
Firat Solhan - www.artstation.com/firatsolhan
► Sources:
The Lord of The Rings (1954-1955) by J. R. R. Tolkien
The Silmarillion (1977)
The Hobbit (1937; 1951)
Unfinished Tales (1980)
The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien (1981)
The Book of Lost Tales Part Two (1984)
The Lost Road and Other Writings (1987)
Morgoth's Ring (1993)
The Nature of Middle-earth (2021)
TolkienGateway.net
Maps:
Amazon (John Howe)
Edited by: Murdo
Aman map by ThePhilosophersGames
► Mistakes:
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► Playlists:
If you are interested in Tolkien's legendary fantasy Epic The Lord of the Rings and his related works, here some recommendations:
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How did Oromë got the Elvish Ambassadors to Aman - 0:00
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The Philosopher's Games / TPhGames / TPhLore aka Chris
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28 мар 2023

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Комментарии : 42

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

I hope you liked this short video and shout-outs to Krisztina for this interesting lore question. Let me know in the comments how you liked it. Also Maybe check the Tolkien Reading Day playlist from 2023 from my fellow Tolkien RU-vid colleagues: ru-vid.com/group/PLJ-mgGUnQJmzSmIG5mDuoofpsLGbo8uxH Thank you to the artists: Kimberly80 Ted Nasmith Jenny Dolfen Art Sara Morello Art Laura Tolton

@markmillonas1896 Год назад

I find I have no problem imagining Orome just riding over the ocean on his (also divine) horse as if it were grass, if he so desired. Likewise, for imagining him giving a whistle and having three of Nahar’s brood materializing for their journey to Aman. But possibly there were material rules that had to be followed for the Elves. If so, too bad - how good a tale would it have been when you got back that you got to ride a magical horse over the ocean. But the after particularly tiring days on the subsequent mass journey west I can imagine some of the Elves saying, “hey Orome, would it kill you to conjure up a few more of those magical horses”?

@austypebbles Месяц назад

lol ulmo making a island boat for them is cooler

@the2fetters 11 месяцев назад

These are great Chris! I like these short videos and the 5 hour VODs. Keep up the great work.

@PriscilaTV1 Год назад

As usual, thank you for the amazing video and for always giving credit to artists!

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

Thank you as well ^^

@kylemoore687 Год назад

I can't see Orome forcing the 3 kings he's trying to convince to come live in Aman to cross the Helcaraxe. Since it was described as such a great hardship for the Noldor that wouldn't have made such a good first impression

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

Yes a good point, but I think if you ride with Oromë and Nahar it might be an easy through a snowy landscape.

@RobiFM90 Год назад

Great video! Always happy to see stuff from the early days.

@GreatGreebo Год назад

Another excellent video Chris…as usual, thank you for all your hard work making these videos!

@jrrlovecraft6505 Год назад

I have often thought of this question myself but I always imagined Nahar as riding over the Ocean because he is (as Sam would put it), "magic". Likewise, I just assumed the Elves rode on Nahar with Orome for the journey to and from Valinor, and they would have avoided the North due to the extreme environment on the Elves.

@horcruxhunter5056 Год назад

Excellent video! I agree with Christopher Tolkien- the travel itself is “mythological” in nature. In my mind, a solid explanation would spoil some of the mystique of it. It’s fun to Speculate tho! :)

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

Thank you ^^ Yes speculating a bit it is fun, but I also think a good fantasy world (esp. a mythological one like Tolkien's) must have some mystery in it.

@planes3333 Год назад

I think my favorite is the Silmarillion. One of my favorite valar is Orome. Thanks for doing this video. Sincerly Darren from Canada

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

glad you liked the video ^^ Yes Oromë is a pretty interesting Vala, who also does a lot of things. So I can see why.

@planes3333 Год назад

@@ThePhilosophersGames I just love it how he was the first to find the elves and he is an original valar *super powerful) look at how powerful saruman and sauron and gandalf were and orome is even more hard core .......I love how he rode around on naha and killed melkor's monsters and also how he escorted the elves to be safe in valinor......

@Enerdhil Год назад

I think Helcaraxe sounds logical, especially if Christopher said it himself. There is no other way they could have crossed over to aman without uding boats, rafts, canoes, or ships UNLESS Aulë and Ulmo worked together to form a stone bridge that rose up out the ocean, which is something they could have done.

@stellagetreuer5164 8 месяцев назад

I think it them crossing the ice is the only really plausible answer. Crossing over the sea on a horse would likely have frightened them to death and is also VERY risky. Imagine them slipping. Also, by tales of Finwë, Fingolfin would have known the Helcaraxë was an option. And when he arrived in Beleriand, despite having taken part in the kinslaying (though without fully understanding), he is forgiven by Elu Thingol because ‘they paid bitterly for such evils that they did’ (no word perfect quote, but close). That makes 100% sense if he knows the ice. Like ‘ok, being carried over by magic (warm! and fast) horse was bad enough, imagine walking it. Nah, that’s punishment enough’. Just my humble opinion, though 😅

@alexiachimciuc3199 Год назад

I heard that in the new Amazon production Galadriel swims for a long distance. Maybe they swim to Aman!? 😂

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

haha yes she swims quite a bit in that show and it's absolutely nonsensical 😅

@jimpanse3089 Год назад

Galadriel swam the whole tour on her own

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

😅 I have to admit it still infuriates me just thinking about this stupid plot line from the show

@MarleyFett Год назад

Most epically retarded story telling, I tried to over look her killing the ice troll, but when she jumped ship and started swimming....🤦🏻‍♀️

@etaureau Год назад

Omg! Loving this! Also picturing her crossing the English Channel, which would have been a breeze for her.

@diantris Год назад

I'd like to know how were various names chosen. For example, in Austria, there are mountains called Karwendelgebirge and Rofangebirge, which in my language are called Karwendel and Rofan - sound close to Rivendell and Rohan, don't they? I wonder if that might have been an inspiration and if there are more.

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

Sorry for the late answer. Oh quite interesting question , but very hard to answer. There might be phonetic real world inspirations (at least distantly) for Tolkien names, but impossible to say what place names Tolkien knew himself. Tolkien had in-world etymology notes. In some cases you could potentially check when a root first appears and see if Tolkien later constructed it out of those existing words or if Tolkien created the name completely new and then created its etymology. In case of Rohan we have the Sindarin word "roch" (horse) in it (+an(d) country; so Rohan meaning horse-country). Roch's etymology appears in a letter from April 1954 (to a proof reader), so before the Fellowship of the Ring book came out (29. July 1954). It might appear in the name "Arroch" (Húrin's horse), but this name only appears in "Narn i Hîn Húrin" from Unfinished Tales. i could not find out exactly when that was written but probably also in the 1950s, though the story was originally written in poetic form in the 1910s. So (with very little research) it's not conclusive if the root "roch" existed earlier and Tolkien just derived the word Rohan from it with roch already in mind or if he invented it in the 40-50s with the name Rohan in mind, and then it made it in e.g. the name Arroch as well. In the latter case it could have had a real world phonetic inspiration. If not I think it#s unlikely. Riven means something like "split apart/cloven" + dell (valley). According to Wikipedia Karwendel is derived from the family name "Gerwentil", so I don't think they are connected. Imladris also means "deep dale of the cleft", so he wanted this "split apart" aspect in the name it seems and went with some English words he liked and that made sense from his perspective as language expert in context of place names. Hope that helps ^^

@istari0 Год назад

I liked this video and would welcome more of them. As far as how the Elvish ambassadors got to Valinor, my only thought is that if they were carried on Nahar, that horse was probably closer to an elephant in size.

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

Yes I could imagine that similar to other Ainur like Sauron and Morgoth, the Valar were quite tall. Maybe Oromë described as a "great rider" can be seen more literally in this context.

@shawn092182 Год назад

I think Orome gave them divine horses and rode across the helcaraxe. With those divine horses, they rode swiftly so the harsh environment didn't affect them. And of course, the power of Orome protected them. Hearing the stories of his father, this would explain how Fingolfin knew to take his people across it into middle earth. But in the end, it's all headcanon.

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

Yes, that is a very nice idea as well

@palantir135 Год назад

If you want to convince the ambassadors of the elves to come to to Aman, would you ride through the north with its hellish climate?

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

Maybe what lies behind then seems even better 😂 But I guess if you travel with Oromë on Nahar it might be not as bad as it was for the Noldor

@shawn092182 Год назад

Sure. You can show them that Middle Earth has places like that, but no place like exist in Valinor.

@Enerdhil Год назад

I rhink a more interesting question is: Did Manwë consult Eru as to what to do about His First Childten? Me thinks No.

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

He definitely consulted Eru, esp. in matters of the Elves (First Children)

@Enerdhil Год назад

@@ThePhilosophersGames Really? Where does it say so. All evidence indicates botched all the things dealing with Elves.

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

In the Silmarillion and some other texts, we find phrases like this: "and Manwë sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Ilúvatar was revealed." (Of Beren and Lúthien). So it definitely happens. Manwë is the one that also seems to understand Eru tghe best: "but Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes."

@Enerdhil Год назад

@@ThePhilosophersGames Everything you wrote is completely true. I am not saying Manwë never consulted Eru, but as far as I know he never "sought the counsel of his inmost thought" in many major disasters involving his decisions regarding what to do about the Elves. My theory is that where the Elves awoke was originally close to Almaren. I think Manwë recognized the Awakening of the Elves in the Ainulindalë and had Aulë fashion an Island where they could be close to Eru's First Children when they awoke. Of course, Melkor destroyed everything and forced the Ainur to flee West. I think Manwë stuck with his original idea (which was to nurture and teach the Elves) and decided the best way to do that was to bring them all to Aman. I am not sure that was the best thing to do, even though Eru made it into something beautiful and memorable.

@wbfwbl8434 Год назад

🥊🥊🥊

@thallus23 Год назад

I thought the elves were transported by an island.

@ThePhilosophersGames Год назад

Yes you are right. When they reached the coast during the Great Journey, they travelled in groups to Aman using a moving island (the Vala Ulmo and his Maiar made this possible). But before the Elves even began their Great Journey, they sent 3 ambassadors with Oromë to check out Aman and see how it is there. And this video is about the journey of these 3 Elven ambassadors to Aman (and back), not the Great Journey of all the Elves.

@thallus23 Год назад

@@ThePhilosophersGames thanks 🙏