How Does Mana Bullying Work? | MONARCH EXCLUSIVE! | Ft: Judging FTW 

Or you can assert dominance by tapping all your mana and then countering the force of will to let amy win.

Supposing I'm Pat and Nick reveals Force of Will. Nick says "I'll counter it if you tap all of your lands." I respond, "No. In fact, you can't counter it unless I tap something, because you've already passed priority. So what's it worth to you to stay in this game?"

i will always throw the match to amy in this case cause if you have force of will in hand and you play a stupid mind game like this you can win a stupid prize

One thing in edh is the politics. Before player with force of will ACTUALLY passes priority, he can simply ask if anyone has a response if yes he passes, if they say no he can then say, both of you tap out and i can help/stop. Ive ran into senarios like that, and i tell the person if you want to lose the game lose the game. Literally dont hold me "hostage". Either counter or dont.

Shouldn't have sandbagged, Nick. Grats on your win, Amy.

I assumed that because mana abilities don't use the stack there wasn't any priority stuff going on, good to know that's not entirely accurate.

Dave going down the dark path of multiplayer, say it ain't so 😅

I thought mana bullying was not liking blue players. Thank you for this insightful lesson.

Wow that's super interesting I didn't realize even special actions would cause another round of priority

i could see it stemming from a risky play from a losing player: let's say nick was very far behind the other players. when priority gets to him, he's already behind, so he doesn't want to spend his fow & another blue card since he figures the other players (that again are in much better positions than him) can probably stop it. when olive & pat reveal they can't do anything, nick decides he wants to leverage for a little something extra, and since nick probably can't win on his turn, olive & pat could reasonably comply with the bullying in order to have the game continue

I'm Pat. I have nothing and its my priority. Nick says: "Pat, I'm informing you that I have -" Me: "WAIT, wait, before you finish that sentence let me say something first." Nick: "ok" Me: "I pass priority." 😂

I will only consider being mana bullied as their opponent if the individual proposing the deal makes the promise not to go for the win on their following turn. Otherwise, I do not care who wins if I don't have a shot to stop one of them in the first place.

Honestly sometimes you just gotta call the blue players bluff with his two open islands and play a banger. I've had times when everyone looks to him and he says I pass priority and its game.

oh my god, it's like the clouds parted and the light shone through right before you said "even a mana ability, for example, tapping a land" 2:53

I like it, play your own damn counterspells or call the bluff and they lose!

There’s another couple common situations similar to this: Not actually passing priority. Before you pass asking the players to your left if they’re gonna stop said threat. Additionally politics and similar actions in commander- it’s not a clear answer on how far politics should go

I’m telling Nick I’d rather lose to the on table win than play sub optimally specifically so you can win.

So the situation is basically Nick saying "I will prevent Amy from winning if only you guys let me win". Tbh if I am in Pat's shoes I would just let it go and let Amy win this game. And if I am Nick I would just counter it with FoW; after all EDH is a 4 player game and you can't always win, but I would take all means to prevent myself from losing on the spot. I would not put my fate in other players' hands and counting on them stopping the player that's about to win.

Wait do you need priority to activate mana abilities?

Nick and Amy sure do get themselves into these pickles quite often

Hmmm. Interesting. A few thoughts from what I've seen ion the other comments. This is assuming a cEDH environment, which essentially means "No holds barred. Everything goes." Kind of environment. We get Hand disruption, Land destruction, and Artifact hate freely. If you can crack the one red source the three-color player has, do it. Its fair, and gives you an advantage. If you don't like that kind of magic, then Competitive is not your place. These kinds of mind-games are absolutely an area that largely unexplored and unregulated in the Competitive space. You likely wouldn't play much with Nick if he did these kinds of shenanigans in a casual game... but you like also wouldn't be seeing a Thoracle game-ender in a casual match either, unless the merfolk player is just generally bad and nobody expects them to win. That said, I think you have a few things to consider. 1: If the game is going to end, you have zero chance to win anyway. Why not play a bargain and see what luck has in store for you? Extending the game is only good you. The only player set to benefit from you not playing into the bargain is AMY, who wins with Thoracle regardless of your moral grandstanding and "showing Nick who's boss" or "Teaching nick a lesson". The only lesson learned is that you have no knack for self-preservation and cannot see past the ego trip of being blackmailed into a set of actions by a player in a advantageous position. 2: There is no guarantee that Nick wins or even sets himself up for a win in teh next turn, and if you both passed priority to Thoracle, the chances of either of you being able to do anything about nick anyway is slim. Maybe you have some interactions, but clearly it didn't matter. Why not play the game? You clearly have nothing to lose except whatever ideas you have about being goaded into an action against your best interest, which would never even factor in if you lose to Thoracle anyway. 3: I would tap out. It may seem crazy, but it's the only logical move that gives you a chance at winning if Nick is serious about pressing this advantage. You lose either way, and if nick has some gas up his sleeve, then so be it. you lose one turn later than you would have. Otherwise, you still have a chance to untap and play again, which gives you more options and chances to win. I think the people grandstanding on some moral or ethical soapbox are clearly missing the point of negotiations and blackmail. You can always refuse to negotiate with terrorists but that just means they find other ways to blow your stuff up.

There are circuits where pods are playing for points so this may come up. Good to know the interaction works as I thought. Although mana abilities and morph bypass the stack, they are still ability activations taken when priority is given.

Interesting. I thought that since mana abilities do not use the stack, that you couldn't respond to them and thus they would have no effect on "resetting" the priority of a spell already on the stack.

nick: "Tap out, or we both lose!" Me: ""no." *lets everyone lose* next game: Me: "Tap out, or i blow up all your lands" Nick: *taps all of his lands* me: *nukes all his lands anyways.* "polotics."

I’ve never heard of this situation before now; wonder if it shows up more in cEDH pods. Really value the insight, at least!

The solution is simple: Someone pulls this kinda nonsense? never play with them again.

This is a good video, but a weird camera angle. Maybe just too low? ❤

I would just say so you want us to lose or lose well I guess we lose to Amy and you lose to

This tactic demonstrates exactly why I don't play multiplayer Magic. All the "politicking" is annoying and I'm not good at it. Great video though as always.

just sounds like unsportsmanship like conduct to me.

I thought mana abilities could not be responded to?

Most cEDH tournament organizers specifically prohibit this behaviour and will disqualify you for doing it

I didn’t know that just tapping a land reset priority. I thought you had to put something on the stack for that since tapping lands alone doesn’t go on the stack. Anyway this particular interaction doesn’t make much sense to me because the force of Will player is going to lose anyway if he doesn’t counter. If he tried to mana bully me I would just tap one land to give him priority again and leave it up to him whether he wants a chance to win on his turn or to just lose on the spot.

lol I'd just be like "you want me to throw the game so you can win the game? we all lose, or you counter this. there are no conditions."

Pat is hoping desperately that nobody else in the pod has anything deadlier than his counter spell. because, there's a good chance they might use it on him in that priority.

i would have said, nah. let Amy wins. the game will end quicker and it would wipe that smug face off Nik

Really interesting topic, but has me wondering, what if instead you just didn't pay the judges that ran your events?

Can you explain how someone is able to reset the stack by tapping a land? By my understanding activating the ability of any permanent on the battlefield to generate mana is considered a mana ability. Aren't mana abilities special actions that don't use the stack?

The Scenario is Justified for the Game setting: Defunct. If it were an all out Brawl then offers shouldn't be allowed; it should be every one for themselves so even Offering should be an immediate Loss for that Player.

I don’t play edh, but I love Dave!

Let's game theory this out. The only way for Nick to use his Force of Will is if he gets priority again, which only requires one action on Pat's part at that moment. Assuming Pat has no freely repeatable actions, his only play that potentially allows him to not lose the game is to activate one of his options that can 'reset the priority loop'. The problem then is that, when Nick gets priority again, he can choose to pass again, thus putting Pat in the same position as before, except now with one fewer activation available. Because Nick knows that Pat's best play is to continue to do this every time priority comes to him until the Oracle is countered, Nick's best play is to continue passing until both Pat and Olive have no further available activations they can use to reset the priority and allow him to Force of Will. Thus, the game theoretic 'best play' in this situation is for Nick to 'mana bully' Olive and Pat, under the assumption that their 'best play' will to always create a game state in which the Oracle *can* be stopped, rather than one in which it can't. This situation holds even if one or more of Pat or Olive controls a 'free' or otherwise repeatable activation that could be used to reset the priority 'indefinitely'. Because of the rules for looping, they would have to eventually choose to do something other than continue the loop; either pass or take a different priority-resetting action, of which they still have a finite number. Even if they have multiple looping options, if they which to go 'back and forth' between different loops, that only creates a larger loop that they must declare an endpoint of, at which point they must do something else. If the loop included a non-deterministic action, however, then no loop could be declared, and the game would have to play out each step individually, at which point there would be no step at which the loop owner would be 'forced' to do something else by the game rules. Under *this* situation, Nick's best move changes, since now if he chooses not to use his Force of Will, there is no situation in which he can force a non-looping activation to happen; his best move because to use the Force of Will in order to avoid losing the game from Oracle, and to avoid the game Going To Time.

Or pat could just counter the oracle if possible or anothwr response

What about "117.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves."

if someone makes this kind of ridiculous offer i will always say no

Mana bullying is just a form of Kingmaking if you aquies

but hold on I thought you weren’t allowed to respond to a mana ability? like don’t mana abilities not use the stack?

You sound like a young Paul Harrell. lol

605.4a A triggered mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after the mana ability that triggered it, without waiting for priority. hard to reset the stack when this rule stats otherwise

Ah yes. Mana bullying. An unfortunate wart in magic's rules that is a necessary evil for multiplayer to work. Personally, I don't care how high the stakes are, I won't be mana bullied. Yes it is within the rules of the format, but it is not within the spirit of the format. And yes I am talking about CEDH here. Sandbagging interaction to see if your opponents have anything is fine. Mana bullying is a step too far and is what I consider essentially a "bug" in the rules. You can play at the highest competitive level in EDH and still play as a gentleman. Giving into manabullying often amounts to kingmaking depending on the situation, so I refuse to acknowledge this "loophole" in the rules. Please do not manabully, but if you do, you're going to have to accept the risk that people like me will refuse to allow you to get advantage that way. The more people that refuse to be manabullied, the less that it will happen because it will be more of a risk.

Feels like a better deal would just being given a turn to continue. Lets the two establish interactive spells for the rotation and then Nick could still attempt to win, but with interaction still being a heavy consideration.

Why not just tap one land and not all, if nick does nothing then he loses too

Great content. Thank you

I love Judging FTW!

God EDH sucks.

Does tapping mana count as taking an action?

Does Pat get priority again or not ? ( after tapping a land and passing )

I have a question: Mana abilities don't use the stack, see rule 605.3b QUOTE "An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated (See rule 405.6)" UNQUOTE. Considering this how does mana bullying works?

I don't even play Magic, but I am actually shocked at all the people in the comments who would throw the game to Amy. You all would rather take a guaranteed loss, if it means sticking it to someone who stands to outgain you through cooperating with you. Getting to your next turn at an extreme disadvantage is always better than losing the game outright, isn't it? Surely you lot aren't so boorish as to throw disdain upon someone for some win-win diplomacy, just because they stand to win more?

Tho you can never mana bully someone that has a null loop, like an untapped basalt monolith, they can just tap and untap it indefinitely. Even though this might seem as slow play, its one way to prevent mana bullying, and at the point where you would have to take another game action, say after 3-4 times, the other player(s) have had their chance to cast their answer.

if nick wants to lose you just let amy win then cant stop her anyway

If Nick had had a Disallow he could have let Thassa's Oracle resolve and then when the triggered (ETB) ability went on the stack, countered that instead.

I don't negotiate with terrorists

Crap like this wouldnt be tolerated i my playgroup or LGS. I hope everyone would call his bluff and either let him counter the spell or lose with the rest of them.

Uhhhh, mana abilities dont use the stack and can't be reacted to. So i think the assertion that players 3&4 tapping mana doesn't give the mana bully another chance to react to the thoracle is incorrect.

Nick is being sour and a bully. The solution is to not care about what he does. Nick clearly doesn't care about how Amy feels or will feel if she wins with a card that shouldn't have resolved under normal circumstances. In some situations, such as between friends with plenty of banter and games that session, each player would be aware of a deck's win conditions and maybe discussion would have taken place already regarding who should win. Maybe Amy has been on a losing spree and Olive and Pat have been cleaning up. Maybe the decks aren't well balanced and this is Amy's one chance to snag a win that'd otherwise be extremely difficult against the other decks at the table. There's context required when encountering this situation but in the way it was set out in the video the people playing against Nick should consider if they want to keep playing with him.

Magic is not an interactive adventure like D&D that last hours. Let the game end and move on. This stuff is ridiculous...

If someone ever does this, I'm throwing hands

Its a social contract game that is when you look at at the bully and say well i guess you should have done something when you had the chance. NEVER play with jerks. I used to play some miniature war games I am known for playing goofy fun lists. If you drop an ultra competitive list against me, if you set up in a go for a fast kill position instead of using my goofy jank as a test to figure out how to play from a bad position. I would set up make you set up take the first turn and quit so you had to sit around an hour until someone else finished. people quickly realized If you want to play against some weird things its a game play like a kid and make sure everyone is having fun. Honestly the behaviors described is why I quit playing commander too.

Vido sponsored by Dhar Mann SMH. This is just stupid and never happens.. if it happens just stop playing with this group of people it's toxic

It should just become standard practice to pass priority and tap 1 land to pass priority back so the other players have a second opportunity to respond.

I really take issue with calling this "bullying." That's a pretty important word these days, and to call basic negotiations in a multiplayer game "bullying" is rather ridiculous. By that thought, every "I can stop them but in return will you do (X)" is bullying.

Correct me if im wrong but i believe this is incorrect. Activating mana abilities doesnt create a round of priority on the stack for players to respond to by casting spells as it would kind of break the game with someone responding to tapping to a land and so the players after nick would have to have a spell or ability to activate in order to reset priority for nick to then cast force of will. He may still be able to create a clause in which they need to tap out but it would require a non-mana ability game action to occur in order for nick to regain priority. The issue is that it can be seen as unethical to force people to tap out as a clause to respond in a situation but thankfully the rules have this measure to stop from the situation described in the video. Like i said correct me if im wrong but im pretty sure this is how it works

Ah EDH, a format that used to be inanely silly and fun, with random decks with potentially hundreds of cards, now consumed by competitive bullshit like everything else.

Compr rules citation needed. Pretty sure special actions and manaabilities do not use the stack, and therefore do not reset priority.

Very informative and explanatory. I think the best play is to stop playing with Nick for using cards like FoW in a casual 4p game. 😆

Ok my question is what exactly is he asking? Is he asking for all other players to tap out so they can't counter his stuff? If because if they could have done that then they probably would have done it for the thassa's orical, and it would be his turn next. It wasn't like he was playing one of the counter spells that allow you to play them for free but on your next upkeep pay a certain cost or lose the game. Your example seems to be broken and it seems like the next active player which seems to be nick is probably going to be just fine, and asking his opponents to tap out for no reason. It seems to not actually being able to help him because he is next in line for the turn order and simply malicious. While you were attempting to explain this board state you didn't give enough information or the reason for the mana bulling in your example is pointless either way. it's flawed. When I hear the term mana bulling, I typically think about increasing the mana costs of spells until the only player that can play anything is the one who started it. This kind of abuse is particularly bad with arena only mechanics like perpetual because I have been on my second turn, and my opponent just made everything in my hand, and library perpetually cost one additional mana or more. So now my one mana spells are two and two are three and so on... The worst part of this is that within three cards that can all be played on turn three at the same time the player using the spells will increase the average mana cost of all spells in my hand and library by three at the latest. Whatever player is pulling that garbage is able to start jumping the costs of my spells by as much as three mana a turn if they are unlucky but a minimum of one each turn though probably closer to five. I had a game where on turn one all of my spells jumped by one mana and before turn five they were at sixteen additional. I would have had to have more than half of the mana production for the deck already in play just to keep up much less have a chance to win. The game worked out like this round one my opponent went first, turn one they played a creature that made all nonland cards in my hand and deck cost one additional mana. Turn two for them they blink that creature with a spell that has reverberate so on their next upkeep they will recast it. So while I had one mana spells on my first turn, I couldn't play them, and I stopped getting more lands on turn five, but he had already blinked that creature ten or more times. I had lost without any chance to win on turn one because of a broken mechanic. Perpetual mechanics are completely broken and I completely refuse to play against anybody who uses them. This is because they are able to completely win the game itself on the first or second turns without any way to stop them. This is because the cards that could counter the abilities don't exist in arena and probably never will in addition to them typically costing the player something that is impossible for them to pay on turn one or two most likely up to turn three. If you are wondering what I'm talking about this is possible on turn two or three at the latest in arena using perpetual mechanics. A creature that if it leaves the battlefield for any reason returns to the battlefield under its controllers control, this creature will receive all combat abilities of the top seven creatures in your deck and get a perpetual +1/+1 for each each time it enters play. This creature will also perpetually increase the mana cost of all nonland cards in your opponents hand and library by one. This creature will also perpetually give all creatures in target player's hand and library -1/-1 and all creatures in its owners hand and library +1/+1.