How Forza’s Class System Works and Why Meta Cars Make Sense 

One major thing that needs fixing to me is engine swaps. In many cars, you can swap out the original engine with a new one that's both lighter and more powerful, but for some reason the PI for the new engine is actually lower. Most obvious example to me would be the LS-swapped Skyline GTRs. It's so cursed but they perform so well, so most people who take a GTR to online racing would have LS engines instead of RBs. It's a major issue in FH4 and it still is in FH5, but it doesn't bother me all that much since I rarely play online.

I used to play a game that incorporated tuning into PI, and there was another way to get around it. I inverted the gearbox, making 1st into 6th, 2nd into 5th, and so on. This caused the AI to adjust final drive in order to make 1st gear usable. Then when it hit the limit of 1st gear, it would shift up, and up, and up, until it got into the slowest tractor gear imaginable. This caused the AI to run 10 times slower times than the car was capable of, and basically made every race a guaranteed win.

I still go with realistic tunes, I don't care. It's so much more rewarding when you beat OP cars and so much more fun to race against other realistically tuned cars. As long as the other players race fair and clean, I don't really mind what place I finish in, I just enjoy a good battle, the problem is most of the people who use OP cars don't race clean, they just ram you off the road the first chance they get.

As a newer player, the number under the class icon (I am assuming that's what we are taking about) being affected by tuning would definitely help me figure out what helps and what doesn't. The newbie's assumption of "it's a bigger number so it must be good" plagues me so much to the point where I would lower the aero until the 0-60 time got longer because "Unga bunga speed go up," and then wonder why I can't turn well at high speeds. Tuning is a lot for someone who's new to sim racing, and even a little hint (besides a wall of text) of whether or not the tune is making the car better or worse would be a massive help. Yes I can do a test-drive, but I don't exactly know what to look for or what exactly I did wrong. Your tuning tutorial certainly helps, but there's only so much a pre-recorded video can do in terms or real-time advice.

One thing that keeps coming to my mind when I think about how these tunes would look in real life is: if you did any of these things, you would destroy your tires in 1 lap or less. What if they did a "hardcore open racing" section with some tweaks closer to Forza Motorsport and also allowed tires to take the "realistic tire damage and wear" more... Realistically? It would give an entire segment of people who want greater diversity in tunes and more realism a place to stretch their (Forza) wings.

I actually think it's cool that such funny cars can be so fast in this game, but when someone can just sit in one car that's clearly broken, use minimal skill to fly around tracks online, and ram people off the road to get to the top of leader boards it's just stupid at that point. Then when they try another vehicle on another road they get mad and just leave the lobby. This is one of the most noob-friendly racing games I've ever seen. But thanks for another vid bro I've been subbed for years.

This was an excellent idea for a video, and one of the most useful for me. I tune all my own cars, and I have watched a number of RU-vid videos to learn more about it. I use HokiHoshi and ConnerSpeed6 the most. These leave me with a car that performs very well on technical tracks, such as Cathedral, where most often the only players using meta-tuning that can touch me are those that know how to ride the walls. However, my cars are not particularly competitive on tarmac or dirt sprints with high-speed, wide turns, where meta-tuning really comes into play. Unfortunately I race against meta-tuned cars that leave me in the dust because they are tuned almost completely for speed and not handling, which means they don’t have to make the compromises that I do. To try and equalize my performance, I've also tried to use SP4’s meta-tuning guide, which has completely different ideal settings, making compromising the two approaches very difficult. I’m not a fan of meta tuning for a few reasons. 1) I want to be able to tune my cars using my knowledge of real physics and not the game meta. ConnerSpeed6 goes into extreme detail about such things as cambered tires keeping their contact patch on the surface during the stresses of turning. I love learning all that. but I’m not sure how much it applies to the game. 2) Meta-tuning also means meta-driving, exploiting the game physics to gain speed, which involves techniques such as bouncing off walls. I only consider my own driving good if I never touch a wall, which unfortunately means I am less competitive.

I like to drive cars in their stock form to see what they really feel like. The stats don’t always give you the full picture. Handling stat isn’t always the most accurate IMO. There are so many random builds that are possible and competitive that come from this and you become a better tuner/driver in the process. My favorites right now are the F1, Sagaris, any 911, and S7.

I think a lot of the more OP powerbuilds would go away overnight if (rear) aero actually cost P.I rather than reduced it, It makes no sense to me that adding a rear spoiler takes a chunk out of the P.I. Yes, it reduces your top speed and adds drag but that's not much of a problem when its already ludicrously high. An AWD car that does 235mph in A class comfortably but has crap tyres benefits hugely from aero and would be terrible without it, so why am I being given MORE budget for improving the car? Silly meta builds will always exist but circumventing tyres made out of cheese with aero is a massive oversight in my mind. You wouldn't let a GTR in the same race as a bunch of Miatas on the basis it has a big wing adding drag. AWD and engine swaps can be countered most of the time by just driving decent, although it would be nice if stock engines were buffed a bit so that engine swaps were made as a powerband/torque behaviour choice rather than simply because its PI efficient. I think the biggest culprit of all is the tracks, realistically 99% favour power, if you're competent you probably destroy most of the playing field when cathedral circuit comes up because people simply aren't used to tracks like that. If Road racing was all technical circuits and street racing was entirely sprints, that might split tuning builds into their respective homes, there's very little reason to opt for handling unless you find yourself in a setlist with 2 circuit races.

I'd say biggest thing tuning system needs here is ECU tuning to help dial in that rogue 1-5 PI without making you scrap an entire part and then be unable to fill the gap.

Maybe they should implement half classes at the 50 point in each class. It could shake up builds a bit.

You’re driving is so smooth man. Sometimes I’ll rewatch your vids over and over to watch how you take certain corners and seeing how I can improve my own driving based on it.

I would say its because of the skull in the front, it scares the wind away so theres 0 resistance from it

Honestly, I want to see tuning being accounted for in PI at the very least be tested. That way, if it turns out to be bad, they can just roll back the changes (assuming it doesn't become a mess of code). Actually, that testing could be done through the Insider Hub! Anyone remember that?

It's been like this for ages in the forza serie unfortunately. I remember playing FM3 and FM4 back then on the 360, and the AWD swap meta was already there , or the drag tire was often used to bring down the car in class.

70-80 rear bias on a grippy awd car is amazing and helps turn in so much. highly recommend

Another huge issue with the PI system is there isnt enough classes. the sheer amount of cars that start at S2 998 while D class has a bunch of

Ah this explains why they can’t just nerf or buff a car the same way call of duty can do their guns 🧐

Thanks for explaining this, I was really curious about this stuff.

very good video Hoki, especially about the breaking while turning contrast between sim and near-sim arcade

There's sometimes such a fine line between a meta build and just a really good tune, how could it possibly be enforced or regulated (if PGG ever felt the need) When it becomes stupid (the recent Raesr drift gearbox fiasco) that's when it needs to be looked at. I play a lot of Open Drift, and the sheer number of times that myself and everybody else is 200k points behind a Willy's Jeep or BMW Isetta is ridiculous!!

The game’s PI should be more based towards a higher top speed, so that cars such as the boneshaker will perform less well Also the point about limiting factors where you said it would be bad to limit tire width but not horsepower kind of is exactly the case in Forza. The tires provide so much of a class increase when doing a powerbuild that sometimes you have to limit it for the most potential Also it is totally possible for Forza to nerf certain cars. Back in Forza Motorsport 4 there used to be a car so unbelievably overpowered that it claimed every single spot on a top 10 the night it was discovered. That car was a 450HP D class Chevrolet Camaro. And a week later, Forza nerfed that tune all the way up to A Class Great video overall👍

2:48 "It would be a bad idea to limit tire width and grip, but not horsepower" Formula drift has entered the chat.

12:49 I like this idea, and what makes it better is, Turn 10 has already done this with Motorsport. If you’ve ever played it, AWD and FWD have problems with understeer, and the only way to fix it is with tuning. Bc of that RWD cars are put on a relatively level playing field. Unfortunately, speed and power is still OP in the Motorsport’s series, but you really have to put in more effort when it comes to the tuning

Such a good video! I learned so many new things about my favorite game. Your video need so much more attention!

"Horizon lets you brake and turn at the same time" Well, in my case at least, horizon 5 lets me brake for about 7% of trigger input After initiating at like 5% This is in comparison to Horizon 4 which let me brake up to 50% trigger input Beyind those limits i just lose all front grip I've also noticed that in Horizon 4 diffentials did a LOT less and sway bars did a LOT more than in horizon 5

Honestly I think the system is good, I just wish the values for speed, Gs and etc that are shown in the tuning window Were more reflective. One thing that's tough even with RU-vid is remembering what tuning you need to do for turn in response vs in corner grip (which I applaud you for that video you have)

Well said and very informative, keep up the good work!

Great vid! Thanks for the thoughts!

Wow, such a good video. I play a lot of Touge lobbies & only drive cars I actually want which sometimes results in "underpowered and slow" cars. I was always baffled at how some would tell other players how to tune their cars without knowing anything about driveline types, but now it makes sense. I typically use real world tuning experience and plug it in game in order to achieve my success and it's always an uphill battle against meta tuning. I try to explain to people Forza can be a baseline to achieve better IRL experience, most don't listen but man, it's so rewarding whenever someone notices driver skill still can play a major part in every aspect of this game.

Thanks man, another really informative video.

Imagine if changing the clutch actually changed how much power you could reasonably get to the wheels, like in real cars, instead of just being a shift time metric.

I personally enjoy being able to tune my cars without needing to worry about PI. I feel that if tuning WAS taken into account, it would probably shift the importance of tuning more towards tweaking it for your personal driving style, which is fine, but it would also increase the burden of knowledge and just the effort it takes to get a well-balanced car in general. H5 is my first serious racing game and the tuning system already looked super intimidating when I started out but at least I had guides to tell me what works and what doesn't, should that be taken away because it's all in my personal driving style and I have no easy well to tell how much of a balance I need to take between comfort and PI cost? One way they could maybe tackle this without changing it is just improving the base tune, or even making it scale with the build you have so the AI is using a tune that more realistically approximates the one you will use in practice. The whole recent debacle with the A-class Raesr came down to the tune limiting it to sub-30mph - if it realised that it was on a hypercar that can do 200+ easily and lengthened the final drive appropriately before player tuning then it would have been a non-issue. I think the physics tweak to nerf grip during moments of hard braking and turning could also be a cool change, and would slot into the existing difficulty settings really well with the TCS option to make it more of an optional choice like ABS currently is - you sacrifice speed around corners for stability.

I, for one, could not care less about any "Meta". I play my way, and that's what i like. In the end, i play to have fun... it's not life and death. And the biggest difference of a game and real life... in games you have hundreds of chances... in real life you only have one, then its out.

The big issue for me is the wildly disparate PI cost for tyres. Rally tyres don't cost much, but give so much grip in A class that you don't need semi-slicks even on a circuit focused build. That means you dump the rest of the PI into power and beat everyone. How it should work is that different classes have different tyre restrictions, so rally tyres can't be used in A class circuit racing, drag tyres can't be used in B class rally etc. If you are required to add a certain tyre to your build to compete in an A class event, you are forced to make a "proper" tune instead of an overpowered meta tune.

I only play FH casually and my consideration of upgrades usually stops at "does it sound cool and still steer", it's interesting to see how the system works for higher skill level players, great video!

A few things would go a long way to balance the game substantially: 1) The only part of tuning that should be considered in PI is gearing, that way you can't stuff a short transmission in a fast car and tune the lack of top speed out. Or just have the game auto tune adjustable transmissions to meet the aerodynamic top speed of the car. Either way works. 2) Have different "test tracks" for road, rally, and off-road races, and separate PI accordingly. Before building a car, the game can just ask what you plan on using it for and scale PI accordingly. 3) Restrict tire type per PI class. Since a lot of power builds take advantage of the garbage "stock" tires on old cars, you could phase this out by requiring a certain type of tire for a certain PI. For example for road races, B class requires street, A requires sport, S1 requires race, etc. 4) Set the default AWD diff tuning to be more rear biased (30-70 or so) so the bots testing the car don't experience as much understeer. Putting all of these things together would make the game substantially better. It'd make racing more balanced, help new people build more balanced cars, and give the meta more variety. And none of these efforts would be difficult to code into the game, either. Make it happen, Forza!

You are way more advanced in this than I ever will be and i have been playing since motorsport 3. My issue is that I do the 4 wheel drive conversion specifically because I find the car undrivable otherwise. The side effects are that I end up just plowing through corners and most egregious it drops the top speed by a ton. If memory serves, on one occasion it went from 230 to like 180 or something similar.

My friend always drives RWD cars and never AWD. He says that RWD is overall better because it gives you higher top speed and better handling. Is RWD actually better than AWD?

Tuning being part of PI is absolutely a good idea. I believe it would balance car choices and builds much more satisfactorily and tuning would go from being absolutely crucial to even compete to a beneficial factor to tweak around driver's preference and track diversity

First of all, I loved this video! Much time and dedication went into this and it shows. Clear, convoluted information that is easy to follow and understand!!! That being said however, I really don't think any of this needs altering. While I agree with all the points u stated about possible and potential changes and their impacts, I feel like, it, just isn't needed. 🤷‍♂️ Ngl, I play for horizon for these types of physics; being able to switch a car to AWD, slap a naughty bodykit, spoiler, the whole 9 yards and go throw it through corners at speeds I really shouldn't be able to! 🤣 If I wanted something more realistic, handling wise, I'd go play the likes of something like GT7, asseto corsa, Iracing and NFS(Just kidding! 🤣). I feel like even if u were alter it slightly, they'd be crossing over into these games territories and it's just needless competition for both parties involved! Forza Motorsport and more importantly, in this case, horizon, has its place and its quite a perfect one! 👌 Again, fantastic video!! 👏👏😍

Honestly for me, the one thing I really wish they'd change is RWD power builds, and that was as someone who loves RWD cars. A very tiny fraction of the community can use them, forget about it if you are on a wheel, which goes against the concept of accessibility. Also, even many who are good with them admit they aren't fun to drive. They also break the leaderboards, as they are magnitudes faster than anything else on the roads. But seriously, even the most difficult to drive race cars in realistic sims are easy to drive in comparison. When I quit playing a few months ago (lost interest since it was either easy wins in pvp or guarunteed losses against powerbuilds), there were some great RWD cars that weren't powerbuilds, and I imagine we would have seen more them and a narrowing of the gap from the elite to the very, very good by a massive margin.

In my opinion, a really great way to understand what cars work for what and upgrades/tuning is using lower class cars C/B/A because their slow enough that you won’t exceed skill if you’re new to the car. Most of the time tuning can be almost always noticeable and easier to learn what does what

Perhaps some form of "success ballast" system could be added that either on a game wide or individual players that do things like add a few extra PI to "meta" cars and builds, like how some touring car or GT car racing series make the previous race winner add a series of weights to the car. Each time someone else wins the ballast is removed and given to them, this would be tricky to get right but it would stop the same meta car being use over and over again and force some variety. After using another car or changing the build for a time the extra "success PI" is removed, if it was game wide for a specific car or setup like Boneshakers they would be temporally nerfed for a time. This is one way real racing has dealt with "Meta" cars, in the series it was well implemented it did add some variety in the fights for the podium.

This video actually helped me tune off-metta more than you think hoki

great video very informative. thanks, youve earned a sub :)

One thing I think would be awesome to add is the ability to tune boost levels

An amazing display of insight this video is. I think we could decrease this variety issue by adding drivetrain restrictions for each class without touching existing systems as they are already much better than in FH4. For example having D to S1 AWD, FWD, and RWD separated. (Maybe S1 FWD is not very achievable and S2 probably should be anything goes). The downside is you would have to have 2 to 3 times more cars ready but is this reaaaally an issue when there are hundreds of cars to choose from and lots of amazing tuners out there. Each drivetrain and class will develop its own meta but already there would be three metas in each class. Furthermore, drivetrains would not be competing with each other so there would be more freedom in building and tuning inside the restrictions. Another thing to consider would be road design. We do not have many low-speed tracks even though there are lots of square kilometres on the map. We could have narrower and twistier roads in some areas and still keep those high-speed roads.

Thanks for the explanation of what's going on behind the scenes in Forza with the simulation and how it affects the PI system and tunes. The changes I would like to see are to have PI updated after tuning instead of calculated before, to have the AI driving model improved to generate a more realistic PI (big ask), to do away with the unrealistic grip simulation on the front wheels and instead update the driving assists to help with this, and finally to revamp the races to make it easier to restrict (or require) upgrades and ban things like AWD and engine swaps, or force cars to use rollcages to be more realistic for players who want that experience.

Whenever I've done transmission tuning, I tend to go for real world gear ratios and what one could get for differential gear ratios off the shelf. If I need top speed, I try to get a 2.73 differential gear set with a 0.50:1 overdrive in the transmission.

This is perhaps the most relevant guide you've made for forzas tuning.

Yo nice video like every time Hoki. The part about the tune and physics is toobased, most of the ppl ignores the fact that Horizon is the son of Motorsport and there's some inheritance for example in the physics, which as u said, are tweaked to make the game easier to be catchy compared to more simulating focused games. You can even swap between less and more realistic driving style in FH, which doesn't make a crazy difference, it doesn't change the engine, only how "demanding" is the game, which, as said, doesn't change a lot. The thing about building a name ingame by tuning is absolutly true too, in fh4 I've tuned a lot, like 100+ uploads but didn't had much impact cuz the game was already kinda dead when I got into it. When FH5 arrive I spended, like, the first 2 months or something like that doing drift tunes so, by now I've 100k downloads and It feels amazing when someone writes U about he's enjoying one of your tunes, not cuz ego, cuz he's enjoying my work as I for example enjoy the work of the ppl that does designs or custom eventlab maps, we're a community and the thing that makes this game big is that, our work, is the same that happens with Asseto Corsa, at this point Event Lab has infinite content that U can enjoy, and again, that's because of us. Btw, I'm looking for people to work with, Im open to any project, my gametag is Senkitox. PeepoPeaceOut

Good video. Lots of valid points!

A simple fix is to change the approach to restrictions for entry to events. In place of the current system where events specify a certain Class (D-X) to enter an event, exchange that for a simple "maximum power, minimum weight, set drivetrain (FWD/RWD/AWD/Open)" entry restriction to events. The PI system then becomes more a side tool that gives you a rough estimate of how performant your vehicle is but your competitiveness no longer hinges on having to bring your top of class car to every race or finding ways to glitch the upgrade system for a meta car. As an added touch, make some of the default events stipulate stock vehicles only (although i guess that hinges on the AI being fixed so they dont launch RWD like its AWD and actually get out of shape once in a while...)

I think making tuning affect the rating is a good idea, especially since certain cars can go from top of one class performance, to near top of the next class in performance just with a good tune. For those, the value of tuning is that one can turn a car that can't quite reach the top of their class into a car that can, just by tuning. However if there is a big desire to make tuning matter as well, then simply making it so that tunes always go a bit more than their rating, not enough for it to make as much of a difference as it does now, but enough that when pros try to fight for the best times, it matters.

I gave up on real-world tuning logic when I was absolutely spanked by a 1940s Willys blowing past me at about 140mph while I was in a modern day Jeep Rubicon upgraded like mad. I was like, "What the actual fuck?" So much for being a sim.

2:07 Hello RU-vid lol

Actually not much different than sims such as Iracing or Rfactor 2. There are known exploits in those titles that make you faster and have absolutely no chance of working in real life. But, they work in the sim. So even "hardcore sims" have items that can be manipulated. At the end of the day, any racing title is just a bunch of numbers and those numbers can be manipulated if you spend the time to figure those manipulations out.

I think there should be 2 types of lobbies you get put into, much like how GTA sorts players based on their auto aim selection. Have one lobby be for casuals looking for arcade racing. Then, have the true-sim hardcore lobby, where every player MUST have the game set to realistic physics simulation. This mode would also fix in place various aides the cars do or don't have IRL. So let's say you have an old car, and IRL, it doesn't have ABS, TCS, or automatic transmission, these modes will be locked in to reflect said car's real-world attributes/features. Meanwhile, you may come across a modern car that has ABS, TCS, and ONLY comes in automatic. Again, said car will be locked into having those features. I think that would be pretty cool. It would also disable any of the other nanny settings like showing braking paths and such. Vehicle speed and mass would be incredibly important when approaching turns, and if hydroplaning can come into play, especially on ice, that would be amazing. IRL, I watched a guy in a 4x4 pickup shoot right into a snowbank at 70mph, because the moron didn't realize hydroplaning doesn't care what you drive, or how knobby your tires are. He ended up high-centering as the snow compacted under his chassis, and I came back around and helped pull him out. Another thing people don't realize is how quickly you can get stuck off-road. Lemme tell y'all another anecdote: My brother and I were up at the 1,000 yard range at the local shooting facility. That range is not open to the public, only RSOs such as myself, and there's both a magnetic key-locked gate, and a padlock gate. Well, someone not only closed the padlock gate behind us, but they switched the padlock to a new one with a different combination! So here we are, trapped on the side of a desert mountain (in Southeastern WA), and no way around the gate (gate is surrounded by large boulders, then super steep gully walls). So, we climbed back into my brother's truck, a 4x4 with off-road tires, and I suggested we take the emergency fire escape route. Turns out, that route isn't even a real road, no compacted dirt, no gravel, no asphalt, just loose topsoil and sand. We made it all the way down, and then, as we approached the magnetic key gate, the truck hit a small sink-hole, and bam, high-centered. Took us about 40 minutes with two shovels to dig us out and carry over gravel from the main road to put under the tires. Point is, if a lifted 4x4 with off-road tires gets stuck in the desert, imagine trying to drive a street car in the desert. So in the super hardcore mode, you'd on;y be able to drive off-road reliably with proper tires and lift. Regular tires would have a chance to become stuck, so street cars must be street cars, unless modified into rally cars. But I'm sure they will never do this, so whatever. It was a good excuse to tell a couple of stories.

I personally just get bored of how unusable most of the engines are... You wanna play 3000GT, NSX, S2000, R32 on the street? AWD V8. There is no point in using NSX V6 or F20 from S2000 because you can just throw in LS / 3.2 from BMW and not care about the weight distribution in the slightest. Not even talking about the fact how underpowered most engines are compared to V8 etc...

I was comparing SP4’s tunes to mine earlier today. I was surprised how radical his ARB, Spring Rate, Bump and Rebound Stiffness settings were to counter AWD understeering problems. It seemed like a copy paste for all of my AWD cars, instant improvement in lap times. Now I feel like RWD is only relevant when the stock car is already close to its target PI.

Very nicely explained :D Didn't expect the game to run a simulated game everytime I install something^^

Great points and I agree with all of them. About the turning at high speeds though... I also noticed the exceptional turning ability at high speeds, but I also know that I don't drive a $million-dollar car with sticky tires, 4000-8000lbs of down force at those speeds and endless attempts at getting it right or better over and over again without dying in real life. So, who really knows but it so is fun.

I think the ultimate problem is one faced in many games, there is only one fastest combination of choices. So you are faced with having variety in the outcomes forcing one single choice or allowing a variety of choices which ultimately leads to equal performance among cars. This does not factor in the human element of different driving strengths and weaknesses of course. However, that is not enough to overcome the ultimate problem of there being one single set of choices that is the best. That is a natural consequence of having impactful, meaningful choices.

Meta tuning ruins all of my fun in online racing. I really hate showing up in a rear wheel drive muscle car, every race I'm facing in all-wheel drive, V12 swaped Ford Gts. It's not fun for me, it's not fun for anyone who likes using 90% of the cars in this game that aren't "Meta"

I did notice there are some broken upgrades in Forza that doesn't make sense in the game. In Forza Motorsport 7, I built a car that despite its Pi rating, kept being able to compete in a class above what it was built for, when we tested it head to head it could even compete on straight line speed which was the biggest shocker.

I would be happy if there was not a random paragraph scrolling on the right side of the screen as you are working on a tune. I am trying to learn how to tune and it is not always clear what the change I just made just did to the car. If in the tuning screens it showed for instance "Over steer" and "Under steer" and show what your changes are as you make them. I have watched many videos and I see a lot in the videos explain, "if your car does this, these are the 5 settings you can change to help fix that." I never know which of the 5 I should start with to fix my issue. I think the upgrading parts system is ok, but it also could have similar features like tuning, make clearer what the new part is going to do. I understand that by making the changes I am mentioning begins to decrease the advantages to someone who has put in the hours of time to learn about the process and as a result create tuning that they can share and profit from. Thanks for the videos, watch them often, many repeatedly as I learn.

3:18 In basically any racing series, tire width, weight, suspension type, aerodynamics and so on are restricted, as well as engine. It's just that high horespower isn't so op on real race tracks as it is in Horizon.

for future videos u might want to look into how you can avoid "sharp s peaks" because often it sound like the are way louder or even overdrives

I think making tunes a part if the pi level will make players have to pick between a better air filter or suspension set to how you want it

There are 2 ways to enjoy online racing in FH5, getting an op or tuned car for an easy win, or picking the car that you enjoy and use it with the combination of your skills to win.

I personally find the Horizon PI system horrendous, I used to play Gran Turismo 5 ALOT back then and if you have had set up a PI range you would be guaranteed a close race no matter what cars people brought to the race. In Horizion you can be easily a full lap behind with supposedly the same PI because you picked a bad car.

0:26 most effective tactical advantage, padding the statistics

I honestly think adding an event flag for drivetrain would do a lot to up the fun factor for people not wanting to AWD swap every car. It'd be really enjoyable to only race against other RWD cars in something like cross-country for example.

Nothing beats beating OP cars with rammers in them. It's rare enough that a rammer is fast enough to actually decide the winner of the race with his BS that I still enjoy the game, esp the infighting when someone rams me at least twice and I get to look for the ideal spot to end them. Nothing feels as good as finishing first, seeing the 1st screen, then the finish line and then here comes the rammer in the Bone Shaker or whatever. Beat them by more than 9seconds and you get to watch them finish ;) Also: Find the car that gets you the most points over all 3 races, is somewhat stable enough to deal with contact and that YOU can drive the fastest. In Class A don't be shy to use an RS6, won me 2 chips today simply by being strong and stable

one way i see fix the all thing would be to add a stats check to the rating system on top of the ai test, for each class set a power and P/W ration min max limit and a lateral G min max limit, then set a average stat and some rules like more power = less lateral g and the other way around or more weigh = more power and the other way around etc the tweak of the front tyres grip for AWD u proposed is a good idea too but on a personnal note after 15y of forza having the same probleme im tired of tuning and building cars, because for me the most important is good racing balanced racing with every car and i only got this with by hand BoP, and if i have to give up on building for that i would do it, and the variety of driving style would come from the cars not the tuning, the thing is tuning and building in forza has lead to less variety overall because if u want to build a competitve cars they will all handle about the same and even sound the same because of OP engine swaps i dont really understand why u say adding tuning to the pi calculation would make tuning less important, most people would still downloaded tunes if the guy is good or if they dont have the time to make their own

hmmm so that was the trick! i've been tuning awd cars with the purpose of making them decent off roading and not too understeery on roads, now i see what i gotta do

to sum up: AWD - more understeer - lower PI cost -rear aero reduces PI (doesnt apply to RWD) -increased rear tyre width reduces PI (doesnt apply to RWD) -AWD swaps dont always reduce PI, but theyre objectively more PI efficient for almost any car in any class then theres RWD -game disregards the amount of power you have with some cars just refusing to go over 200mph even with more than 1500hp -game underestimates the amount of grip you have in your tires (not just the rears) -some cars just completely ignore drag it seems and have insane top speeds and acceleration (NERF THE DART TOO, ITS NOT JUST THE BONECRAP) Theres only 5 tyres in the game: -white walls (B power build only it seems) -street -rally (?) -drift (????????????) -slicks We were promised they would be fixed and specialized so that they cant be used for something they werent meant for (yeah sure, that worked out well) And finally, engine swaps :))) -6.2 LS: honestly no idea why its so good, my only guess is that you can still go 1k rpm into the redline for no reason while the simulation shifts much earlier -racing V12: no torque, no PI, no make sense man -and some random others like the 3.2 BMW i6, TVR V12, Racing 7.2 V8, Turbo Rally F4 Boxer, Lambo V10 and Viper V10 that are good because none of the above were available for the car you are tuning Im sure those issues will be eventually fixed in the next Forza title as PG promised with like the 2 previous Horizons as well... Or you know, we can just get rid of ranked because you try to win too much...

I just started making my own tunes - Thanks HokiHoshi! - and I was surprised at how some counterintuitive part choices can be tuned out to great advantage. If anything, I would add anything goes class where every part would be available to any car. They'd have to play among themselves in events but I think the results would be much fun. I drive an S2 906 Bugatti Type 35C and an S2 904 4 1/2 Liter Blower Bentley in FH so I may be slightly mad anyway.

If tuning effected pi like in Gran Turismo, you’d have things like the SRT Tomahawk exploit from their latest game....basically, the 4 speed Raesar in FH5, but with everything

Spot on as far as I'm concerned. So many racing games out there that boast how many cars they have included but if over half of them are basically useless it's pretty much a slap in the face to some of the games most dedicated fans. This is even more devastating to fans of certain car manufacturers or specific car classes if they find that their favorites just can't compete. For instance I'm a huge fan of classic muscle cars and though to me they are such fun to drive I feel like the vast majority of the community is going to struggle getting them to keep up with modern sports cars. I feel like a few tweaks to how the cars are grouped in lobbies could make the game more accessible to a wider variety of the games fans. Like instead of only using the PI class, what if we had lobbies for things like RWD only or cars from a certain era etc. etc. ???

Personally, I choose whichever car I wish to drive in that race. I play to win of course, but I don't mind losing as long as it's a fair race and I enjoy it. But what I hate most is when ridiculous, irrelevant vehicles come first in a race. The biggest example I can give to this is, "open drift" races. Most of the people on the list either chooses a JDM or similar drift-oriented (logically) vehicle, but there are always a few people choose either a BMW Isetta or a Willy's Jeep most of the time. I once came across the winner with a 1926 Bugatti Type 35 C. DRIFT RACE WITH A 1926 BUGATTI! This type of illogicality seems extremely ridiculous to me and of course it spoils the joy. And not because I lost. Drifting vehicles have a beauty that is pleasing to the eye. Watching Skyline or Silvia drifting is beautiful to the eye. It doesn't matter whether you drive the vehicle or not. It just looks beautiful to the eyes. Willy's Jeep makes my eyes bleed when i saw it drifting. What does drift racing have to do with Isetta? Another example; the 1968 Afla Romeo 33 Stradale has a great importance in car culture. REALLY BEAUTIFUL CAR! But you shouldn't win an S1 Class Cross Country race with a 33 Stradale. List goes on and don't forget the Boneshaker... At the end of the day I am aware that this is a game and these cars are also available in a list of hundreds of cars and of course if that person owns the car then that person (Or me) is free to drive/race it. But it never changes the fact that it's ridiculous. I would say it's not about whether the cars are mechanically bad or good. It's about the appearance of the cars is related to the logical dynamics of the race they enter. It makes perfect sense to me for Brabham to come first in S2 Class Road Racing. Because the exterior appearance of the vehicle and the racing environment are very suitable. But Brabham shouldn't race in let's say S2 Class Cross Country.

the biggest factor why meta cars and tunes work in the game is that you don't have damage to consider. most if not all meta driving styles and tunes would blow your tires within a few minutes and your transmission and motor would say good by really fast. there is a reason why there is no drifting in real races except in rally on gravel, dirt or snow roads. locking up your tire for 30+ meters means that you have a flat spot on your tires that massivly reduce your handling and performance and we are locking up our tires at 200+km/h for seconds before going into the slide around the corner. the tires performance would be gone in rl by that time. the next thing is that the motor would overhead in rl because we almost always are in the close to red area of the rmp meter and no motor is holding that for so long. even f1 cars are only for a short period of time over 60% of the meter because the cooling can't handle more and it would overheat. it is one of the most unrealistic things in the game and how automatic transmission work. nobody in RL get's even close to the 60% mark when swtiching from the 1 to 2 gear but forza goes over the red region before switching. automatic transmission are way more complicated in itself and to tune than it is done in the game and many meta builds profit from that, especially if they use the automatic transmission in manual, something that doesn't work in RL because it is build completly differently.

The PI system is weird. I’m running drag tires on several of my A-class builds because it DROPS PI but INCREASES GRIP. Some engine swaps are broken too(LS GT-R is good; 4-rotor RX-7 is not). Maybe go back to only allowing swaps within the same company

I always tuned cars to mesh well with my driving style instead of improving the car outright.

One thing that comes to my mind with engine swaps at least is adding in forged engine options like NFS Heat did so people can still be competitive and it's there for those people (like me) who don't necessarily want to swap out the stock engine. I hope that makes sense. I don't always wanna swap in a V12 or LS motor just to be competitive. What if I want the stock engine but it takes more power? Idk just thinking out loud

Always thought that if horizon introduced a stiffness and drag coefficient statistic to the vehicles realism would ensue. Most of the problem stem from how ultra light vehicles can take on horsepower that would rip them apart in real life and handle the wind resistance like they're bullet shaped even when they're a block on wheels.

11:17 this was the first thing i noticed coming from the gt series

This is a comment to support channel. Great video!

when it comes to FWD cars to maintain grip in a corner you need to be accelerating or you will understeer however you still need to be braking to prevent the rear tires from loosing grip and sliding however its extremely hard for newer drivers to adjust to which is why understeer is minimized in games

2:56 you dont exactly go racing if you are concerned about being safe, that's what padded rooms are for. It's not that I'm opposed to keeping risk manageable but the rules get pretty overbearing pretty fast when they really don't need to be, it should be up to the team and more importantly the driver to determine the risk they want to take and build accordingly.

Please God let your next video be how to meta tune! I love your videos, you are the best Forza RU-vidr. And I love your tuning guides. Keep it coming!

I think PI should be a formula based on raw metrics like Power, Weight, Grip, Braking Force, Drag and ect. As this will give a rough idea of how good a car is but will still require players to tune to get the most out of their car. PI perhaps needs to also be between 0 and 999 while also pushing a lot of cars back so nothing is at like 990. This is like FH6 stuff at this point.

I consider myself not bad at racing game (at least in arcade ones). I can say I'm in the average, if not, in the slightly above average players. I went through lots of trouble learning on how to properly tune cars so they do what you want. Most of the time I just focus on the race and don't focus too much on the result. I got FH5 recently and I can say I feel very frustrated as soon as I get in online. Litterally murdered with some having insanes chronos. I'm totally lost tbh but this video gave me a bit of an answer thanks you. I'm using a pad and I'm on Xbox One X.

here's an idea: Forza could better balance online play (without doing away with the existing PI system) by introducing weekly restricted setup races. Races with a short list of specific restrictions to encourage players to make the best builds they could within the limited space, by locking out certain upgrades and vehicle types, or placing limits on certain measurable aspects (such as displacement). This would create a space for players to refine a setup they wouldn't ordinarily have any reason to construct whatsoever (such as a setup that would fall in the middle of a class) and compete against much more similarly designed cars, creating a more competitive race with a more unique field of competitors.

I’m not sure this was mentioned in this video but programmable drag is another aspect that determines whether a car is OP. This should be added also

This also puts into perspective why handling upgrades have historically cost so much PI in Horizon games. If the upgrade allows the AI to drive around without risking wheelspin or oversteer, the PI system will actually "see" the improved performance because the AI doesn't need to constantly be counteracting oversteer and wheelspin.

Been a while since I tuned a Forza car. Might hop back into it and go golf builds

It all comes down to that last part about Horizon just being a fun game and not really a comp game. There are leaderboards if you want to be competitive but Horizon Open and most of the Festival playlist being completion goals. being kinda vague about the cars you use. The issue I have is when The Trial makes you tune your care in unrealistic ways to beat the AI. I usually end up just downloading some random tune and just going back to having fun drifting or going for accolades. I never play online because of this

I think that the tune should account for the PI, do not nearly as much as normal parts, I still want meta TUNING to be useful, but I dont want it to be overpowered