I've been making NY style pizza last few weeks based on your methods/recipes. I know how much research and testing you put in to your videos and it's really helped me. I'm shocked that I can make this good of pizza at home. Thanks!!
It is truly amazing how the gap has closed between the home cook and professionals. The next big thing is going to be the electric ovens and the ability to control the top and bottom heat in the ovens. It's already happening with Ooni and Q-stoves, but this market is about to be flooded with electric pizza ovens for the indoor home pizza chef.
@@jlijoithat’s fair but in home ovens where you can’t bake at as high a temp, parkbaking can be a great tool to help you get a similar effect. I’ve parbaked Detroit style pizzas at home with great success in replicating their taste and texture
@@Patthefunny42069 research. You don’t need a deck oven or super high temps to do a proper Detroit pizza. Most pop ups or startups around the Detroit area use standard home ovens. Source: a local Detroiter
To say a certain technique isn't authentic is like saying you can only us a certain brand of screwdriver on a certain type of foreign car. It's the end result that's important.
Yooo I was about to comment on par baking pizza. I'm from Roma and I've made several Detroit style pizzas at home and in an home setting it's just like Roman pizza in teglia. Par baking just for 1/2 min improves the pizza by a mile, it holds the toppings better and it rises a lot more. Ps I was all about super structure, super high hydration doughs...now I just make a 70% hydration sourdough and let it rise in a container.
I think the thing that you’re missing for the crust is you should put a decent amount of oil in the pan and brush it all around the bottom, sides and edges before you put your dough in. Not extra-virgin, but regular olive oil. Then work your dough to the edges over the oil and then cook it. Try that out. You will get sweet crust perfection.
I was thinking the same... I do everything just about the same, but the one big difference is use a lot of oil in my pan and though every non and then it gets a little too dark, it's nothing like these.
I've been making a bunch of DSP since the first lockdown, and researching everything I can. And my biggest recommendation is try 475° for more like 15 minutes, on a preheated stone or steel, on the lowest rack. I've been really happy with my results and I used to live in Detroit for years, so I know what I'm trying to achieve. If you're not in the Facebook Detroit Style Pizza Enthusiasts group you absolutely should be. I've learned so much there.
I cook my Detroit style at 450 for 13-15 minutes. I use a 70% hydration with multiple stretch and folds and a 24-36 hour cold ferment. I've been able to get the right crust without burning the edge.
@@georgepagakis9854 I do the almost the same (18 minutes), I use 3/8 and KA BF, preheat the oven for at least 30-45 minutes before baking and if your oven is a little uneven rotate half-way through the baking process. Baking with the steel gets a nice golden bottom and without it seem under cooked, cheese on the side is always perfect/never burnt.
@@1jsamuel thanks for the reply. I have a 3/4 inch steel oven pre heat at 490F and I use BF at 70% and would bake it for 13 minutes total but 8 minutes on the steel and then the rest on the top rack without the steel, As soon as I put the pan on the steel I put the temp to 550F. Kind of a Frankenstein. But I will try your method. I was getting great results with the bottom being super crispy and golden brown,. If I can do it one step without having to do all those extra steps that would be great. Only thing is that the longer the pizza stays in the oven the higher the hydration. I will give it a try and see. maybe somewhere in-between.
@@TheBuddyCassius Ideally. I would like just to cook it without having to change temperature or change from steel to rack. To bad there is no owners manual on how to bake. LOL its all about experimenting but its fun!
@@TheBuddyCassius Glad I helped out :) I use Rega San Marzano D.O.P. tomato's no other brand comes close to them. They are a bit pricy but worth every dollar! You need that Lloyd pan because it really adds to the crispness. I also don't use butter because at those temps it will burn. Just use EVOO and you will get the best crust. I never par backed the pizza because in 13 minutes of total cooking time the cheese melts perfectly. I also don't use Mozzarella, instead I use 20% Gruyère and 80% Emmental cheese. I like the taste way better then salty Mozzarella that burns really fast. These Suisse cheeses can take the heat and make the Pizza so decadent :)
All of your videos leave me absolutely craving pizza. And finally, someone else that can describe the difference between crispy and crunchy. Also just saying, that was an incredible looking pizza for one that came out of a pyrex/glass cake pan
The best tip I can give you is to use a cast iron skillet under the carbon steel pan. I always use this technique and the texture and colour of all I bake in this steel pans comes out being much better and never burned. The steel pans give the form and the iron takes care of the rest. Make sure to preheat the cast iron for 20 to 30 mins. If the pan doesnt fit in the cast iron, just flip the cast iron upside down and put the steel pan on top.
Fix that cave in with a par bake. I make a similar style pizza in a 12 cast iron pan. 2 cups of flour makes about the right size dough for the pan. My dough is pretty much focaccia, 80% hydration, rosemary makes it taste nice, dimple it for texture. Bake it for 10min at 450. Then I take it out and top it. I use slices of mozzarella cover the top and go up the sides of the pan to get a good caramelized crust. Then sauce, then whatever toppings.
To achieve the perfection you want in a home oven. you have to do a 2-steps process (both are at the same temperature, in my case, 250ºC or 428ºF, but my oven goes up to 280ºC or 536ºF and the results are similar): 1) Parbake the dough without toppings, with the pan in direct contact with the oven floor, for 6 minutes, turning the pan halfway for even browning on the bottom (I have a gas oven, so the heat element is right below the floor of my oven). This will give the initial rise (even better than you have on the video) and set the dough structure to allow even heavy and wet toppings without collapsing. You can then proceed to the next step right away or even let your dough cool down for a couple of hours and then go to the second step, but you have to turn the dough upside down in the baking pan, so the top is not exposed to the air and dries out, and there is no problem with the bottom to be left exposed, as you wanted it dry anyway for crispness, and the fat absorved on the this first step is going to add to a even crispier bottom. I'm using an 80% hidratation dough with 48 hours fermentation time; 2) Put the toppings on the dough and cook it for more 8 to 10 minutes to cook the toppings and give the cheese on the border some good browning. You can use even raw sauce and there is enough time to cook it and evaporate the excess water so you have a pretty good, simple sauce (I use for my raw sauce tomato pellati - Roma, as San Marzano as rare in Brazil, even canned, salt, a touch of sugar and dry basil that I sun-dry myself for two weeks, it acts much more like fresh basil than the store bought one, and crumbles just as equal, with a more potent fragrance). This oven time allows the cheese to be golden brown without the burnt appearance and any toppings to cook. I even make my own sausage and put it raw as a topping in small amounts and it cooks just fine. The only drawback with this method is that the cheese over the pizza does not brown as if you would bake it normally, but I don't see much of a difference in taste. If you really want the same results you would get with the normal method, I suggest to use the broiller for one or two extra minutes after the second step baking time, but I do not see the need to do that. But with this, you achieve the trifecta: dough with good rise and chew (and if you pause during the steps you will have unbelievable crunch bottom), golden brown border without looking burnt, and no danger of dough collapsing. One more thing: have your cheese diced, not grated, as cubes his will slow down the melting and the browning of the cheese as they have less surface area exposed to the heat. You can test the cheese cubes with the normal baking and see how this goes. I use low-moisture mozzarella as there is no brick cheese in Brazil, and it performs very well. I hope I helped you with some insights. Anything else just contact me and keep up with the good work, your cheesestake and NY pizza were really good, but I think I got more experience than you on this one, as I have been tinkering with this style of pizza for years now in order to open the first Detroit-Style pizzaria in Brazil. Maybe next year?...
@demevs Hello there, I'm Brazilian as well, I've had the same issues, that you have explained. What is the pan and the flour/recipe that you are using for those pizzas?❤
Great video. Couple thoughts: (1) a great middle-ground compromise is to add the sauce in the middle of the bake after the crust has mostly set but before it's done. (2) I do everything very similar to you but my edge doesn't always get that dark. I think it depends on the cheese you use and how much oil you got on the side of the pan or otherwise accompany with the cheese (e.g., pepperoni near the edge). Also it still tastes good when it's pretty dark.
For higher hydration, perhaps you should look into the French technique bassinage, where you reserve a portion of your remaining water and slowly incorporate it during kneading, and the theory is that it strengthens the gluten more.
I do it for my NYC dough. 70% in summer and 73% when it cools off It’s less sticky to ball that way, it matters when you are doing 100 of them. It didn’t for 6
Parbake would fix the caving issue if you tooped after a short parbake, also you can better control cheese browning without needing to worry about the bottom.
This is the answer. I parbake my detroit pizzas for 4 minutes before adding anything and it sets the structure without any of the cheese/sauce/topping weight on top.
If you take them out after a par bake and let them cool, then wrap in plastic wrap. Pop in the freezer (even overnight) you will get a much lighter and crispier pizza. Not everyone likes it but it really works.
I know from baking Sourdough bread it really helps to introduce steam for added oven spring (rise). You do this by simply putting some type of pan on the bottom of the oven while heating up stone/steel. Right after you load pizza you quickly throw about 6 large ice cubes into the hot pan. Have these ready so you don't keep nice hot oven door open too long. Maybe this we be a good experiment.
Use a CAST IRON skillet. Pour olive oil in the skillet, add the dough. Allow the dough to spread out to the edges. Top the pizza, do NOT put sauce on top at this time. Put the pan in the oven, on a heated steel or stone, and pull it out 5 minutes before the pizza is done, add some sauce to the top at that time. Back in the oven for another few minutes. Remove, check the doneness of the bottom crust. I also like to add grated parmigiano around the edge of the pie to get a nice tasty frico around the edge of the pizza.
Seriously, I accidentally replicated Buddy's pizza crust just by using a cast iron skillet, all other things being equal, a few years ago and have used this method ever since.
I love these deep dives into the deep dish style because how easy it is to prepare. Just set the dough in the pan you wanna bake in and let it rise and when you're ready add cheese and sauce and you have a pizza, compared to a regular Pizza this is so much less work.
I've been watching your videos last few weeks especially for the sauce, its been an amazing help! Also I've found that detriot in the oven doesn't need the steel, and that way I don't get a burnt crust 😊
Remove your dough from the pan after the rise and put a big squizz of quality olive oil and coat the whole pan (not extra virgin because it can't handle the temp as well.) This will essentially fry the dough instead of it burning.
Charlie, great job. One thing to note...while baking at higher hydrations is doable with King Arthur Bread flour, it will not perform as well compared to stronger flours that can handle more liquid and give an incredible oven spring. Try using a Manitoba, or All-Trumps, or any other flour with a protein of 14% and W close to 400. My pizza game changed when I started to take what a flour gave me instead of trying to force my desired hydration into it.
What about using cast iron pans. And just put some cheese around the edges and call it a day. I will eat that all day instead of charred edges. Great videos!! Love the science and experimentation behind pizzas. 🍕
You have the pizza Bible already lol take a note from Tony . Par bake your crust Pull it out cheese is it top it with sauce Finish baking No oven temp changes or hydration changes needed
A mixer i think for when a dough is lacking strength is just about mandatory. It looks like the 4 stretch and fold of hand mixed, when it's the 1st turn. Weather is finally cooler and time to bust back into the kitchen for pizza. You and ragusa got me on that train. Your tweaks to get a scar like pizza was very helpful. I'm using that recipe roughly. I'll go up and down with the salt and the oil amounts as it's affects taste and crustification/cracking/chew in my opinion. More oil more cracks. Reverse cast iron pan is my jam. 15" pan for 12" pizza roughly. It about 14" on the bottom dimension. 525 deg 7-9 min convection. The thing that's very helpful for making all dough products is experience and you have to just REP it out. Like the gym. Touch, rise, no touch into the oven is very tricky. And not sticking. I let it proof on the counter with no ingredients, stretched for 10-20 min. Very puffy/tender. And popping the big bubbles during stretching. Time for Detroit the right way. Thanks for the help Oh and the cheese and sauce. San marzano is a minimum. Or dinapoli. Then whole low moisture more me. My kids prefer low fat low moisture with 30% cheddar added, more firm. Then again a 12" pizza will get 10oz of cheese for them too. Very thick.
I like to embed a thin layer of cheese into the dough before final proof. (More cheese added before baking.) It seems to meld the cheese with the crust. Have you tried that?
The best Detroit Style I’ve managed to bake was in an Ooni Koda 16 preheated/baked on low using a Lloyds Pan. I placed it in the corner furthest from the flame and baked it 3-4 minutes, turned it 180 degrees and baked another 3-4 minutes. My dough was 70% hydration, and it was just crispy enough without being burned imo.
Good he followed the actual pizza bible recipe for the standard dough with the stretch and folds per 20 mins. Temp is definitely an issue, my detroit pan from that site has never had a problem, just coat with butter and oil before adding dough.
Thanks for your hard work and these videos! 🙂 I've made both your NY and Detroit pizza sauces from a can of Alta Cucina and froze them!! Waiting for spelt flour order to make NY style on my pizza stone. Looking forward to see your final Detroit dough. I par-bake mine for 5-7 mins @ 450 to make an unconventional Detroit with sauce on bottom, cheese and then toppings, like a normal pizza. Total bake time is 14-17 mins.
Cooking in glass may be a good idea. I have prevented burning on the bottom and get better oil browning on my crust. It takes on a much nicer texture than blackened crust--without any carbon aftertaste
I use a lodge cast iron. Olive oil coat the pan and sides, sprinkle garlic power and Italian seasoning, mix 60% dough by hand, ball it, goes in fridge for 2-5 days. Get dough out in the morning, dinner dinner time, preheat oven to 475, put dough in the cast iron, put moz cheese and 10% grated parm cheese around the edges, now we spoon and drip some sauce on it, then the toppings( dont put too much on). Cover pan with foil leave small vent, put in oven, should be hearing quite a bit of grease splattering- like 10 mins, take it off, put it back into until you get the cheese and topping cooked to your liking, move to wire rack or to a plate to eat within 10 mins. Thiz pizza cant sit out for too long, gets soggy fast.
Nice work! Could consider starting super hot then lowering temperature after putting it in. Get the oven spring but less charr later in the cook. I think that is used for cheesecake?
Dang here I was looking for the next video, before I realized I was early ah 😂 1hr ago??? 😳 anyway, thanks for everything redhead slim, I wish I was your roommate so I could take advantage of all your "experiments" 🤤
Two thoughts about caving: (1) parbake your dough to give it some structure before you add the sauce, or (2) forget about the racing stripes and apply the sauce and cheese evenly.
If use 80 hidratation or more you can do a double cook time (first white and second toppings loke a sicilian) or you could put the souce after baking Saludos desde Uruguay
If you don't want the cheese on the edge to burn, try sprinkling a small amount of Pecorino or high quality parmesan on the pizza before baking. This should help.
Glad I watched all the way to the end; I was just about to type in that you should try saucing after baking to correct the sinking dough. I have the DSPC pans but cannot for the life of me get the edges to not stick badly. Seems like no amount of seasoning is enough….
If you don’t have pizza steel’s in your oven, then you’ll need some to maintain high temps above and below the pizza. If you can only get one, put it under. The key is high temp and less time. High temp brings a quick rise and quick time keeps it from burning. Pizza ovens have low ceilings while traditional home ovens are large cubes by comparison. By using two pizza steels, you create a more focused mini oven in your oven to better concentrate heat and cook pizza perfectly.
I don’t know if you have solved the edge charring issue yet, but I have noticed when I season bare metal pans if I leave the outside edges unseasoned and shiny they char the edges much less. I use an electric oven, but I think the extra radiant heat hitting the dark sides of the pan adds a lot of heat to the crust. You could try sanding some the seasoning off one of the pans and see how that works, or bake some oil onto the outside walls until it gets sticky and stick some shiny foil on the edges?
I Hey Charlie……try par baking your DSP……that may help where the cheese on your side may not brown as bad….also try different type of cheese for the sides..some cheeses will char more than others
I've been using a stainless steel pan and it works really well. I try not to get the dough right up against the edge and also don't spread the cheese to the edge. As the cheese melts, it goes to the edge anyway, unless you're leaving a big one inch gap, which seems like such a waste of space to me. For a while I was pre-cooking (like par-baking) the crust on the stove, but I now put the pan on the bottom rack and it works well. Still eperimenting though.
High hydration dough is amazing! I have left my dough in the fridge too long but when i pressed it out thin on a well greased oven safe pan and it was crispy with some bubbles. I find the worst case with high hydration dough is you get the texture of a doughnut lol and that's not that bad!
What does 'too long' taste like? I've gone three days so far. Didn't really notice a taste difference but there might have been a texture difference similar to what he decribed in the video.
Nice job man, really liking these vids. The flour you're using there is limiting your dough strength, think you could probably solve that sinking issue by using something a little stronger to start with like All Trumps or my favorite Cairnspring Trailblazer. Also try adding a small splash of white vinegar (just a few drops) on the initial mix, that can help provide a bit of strength as well.
I wonder if the malt powder is causing some of the burning on the edges. More sugars that can be caramelized and therefore more susceptible to burning.
Used King Arthur Bread Flour (higher protein content). 80% hydration, mixed dough, cover and rest 1 hour. Did a stretch and fold (1) with a rest for 30 minutes. Repeat stretch and fold (2) and 30 minute rest. Do one more stretch and fold (3), round and place in a slightly oiled container and refrigerate for 48 hours. 48 hours later - remove container from refrigerator and set it on counter for an hour. Gently turn dough out unto floured surface (in my recipe I had to half it at this point to use at a later time). Gently folded dough into a ball and placed it into a liberally oiled Lloyd pan. Wrapped the pan in plastic wrap and placed it into the oven with light on for four hours (found that the full 4 hours makes a huge difference). Preheat oven to 460F with pizza stone or steel inside. Cheese and sauce pizza along with whatever topping (I topped mine with pepperoni). Placed the pan on the pizza stone and baked for 20 minutes. Remove from oven and immediately remove from pizza pan and place the pizza unto the pizza stone for 3 minutes. Remove from oven, allow to cool slightly on a wire rack, slice into fourths and enjoy. This is a combination of two other chef's pizza recipes - Mile Zero Kitchen and the most recent Detroit Pizza recipe by Brian Lagerstrom. Both have excellent video posted on RU-vid. Best pizza I've ever baked and will be my go-to from now on.
Thanks. They're both smart, I prefer mile zero, just in terms of style and content choices. Which video of his? UT won't allow links here, maybe you remember the title and date of the vid? Will probably try your version
Am I the only weirdo who makes pizza sauce without cooking but mixes all the herbs and stuff a few days in advance so the flavors have time to marinate in the whole sauce?
Man, I’ve been cooking pizza for a few years now, and trying everything different, and I’ve tried every hydration, 72% is the perfect hydration for pizza. If you’re cooking at low temp, as you are, you need to part cook the pizza with only fat, then pull it out and add your toppings... if you cook at high temp (wood fired oven) you don’t need to do this. Give it another try at 72% hydration, start with a poolish, then another 12 hrs after kneading, cook for say, 5 minutes with only fat (butter is good, or mix of butter and olive oil, but olive oil by itself is fine) put the fat wherever you will put the topping, then after the “spring cook” then add the topping and cook until the topping is cooked. Another thing to think about, is, this is really a focaccia, is not really a pizza, so add lots of oil to the base, like a focaccia. I cook all my focaccia (and deep pizza) in pyrex dish exactly like yours, Even in my wood fired oven, no problems. Just make the dough like normal pizza, ball up and place in heavily oiled dish, poke it into shape and leave it an hour or so, come back and poke it i to shape again, leave it another half hour or so, until it’s looking puffy, add oil, cook half (only if using low temperature oven like you) add topping, cook the rest. You will be amazed how puffy it is... trust me, give it a try...
It would be interesting to see what temperature the cheese you use on the outside overheats and expels oil. My guess is that a cheese that expels the oil sooner will create a crispier edge. This is something I see even on NY, CT, bar pizzas is that pimply cheese on top. I'm wondering if caking agents like starch on pre-shredded cheese would help keep the expelling of so much oil to a minimum.
I actually like some caving when I make pan pizza -- but I usually dot my pizza with sauce instead of using stripes -- so maybe the problem isn't as bad for me. Anyway, I love this series, you've given me a lot of things to try out. Thanks. (My personal style is 85%, baked in buttered 9x13 cast iron, Don Pepino pizza sauce, and whatever cheese I've got; preferably provolone.)
I've never had issues with my cheese burning in my Lloyd pan. Usually bake between 450-500°. Maybe it's a difference with the oven, not sure. Something I'm surprised you didn't try was cast iron pans. I've had great success with Detroit style pizzas in them and usually the bottom crust is extra crunchy while not being burnt and the edge cheese is a nice deep golden brown, presumably due to the slower heating of the thick cast iron.
I think the point of cast iron is that you can throw it on the range before (Adam Ragusea) or after, to make sure/fix the bottom. But I just can't stand the clean up, the maintenance, the weight. And a Lloyd's pan is big, you have to use double the cast irons for the similar amt of pizza.. plus you have the handles sticking out in the way in the oven... Meh I mean, I love cast iron, just not here. Single serving yes. Pizza for 4-8, not as much.
Good suggestions. I've been trying to come up with the perfect crust have have tried different recipes. Any suggestions for high altitude? I'm in Colorado and we have to adjust for altitude plus our extremely dry climate. Some "normal" recipes require tweaking for more water/moisture with baking.
I think I'll try a more hydrated dough for my pan pizzas. I usually have it ready in an hour. And my bread is always disappointing. I think I'll experiment with higher hydration and a longer cold ferment. I use a cast iron pan.
1) Parbake at 450F for 10 min, on a steel on the lowest or second lowest rack from the bottom, covered with foil (for ultimate rise) 2) Uncover, top, no sauce, bake another 10 minutes, uncovered 3) Sauce, done. Any water-based topping will limit the amount of heat being transferred to the dough from the top, and that's why you're getting sinkage if you sauce before baking. Having only fat-containing toppings during the bake will transfer much higher temps to the top of the dough, so you get more lift. Charlie - you seem to like the crust REALLY charred. That's a personal preference, I assume. That could be limiting the balance you're trying to accomplish. Also - check out what Mile Zero Kitchen does with their take on DSP (no, I'm not affiliated with MZK). ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-FduLxZaw8Ko.html
What about saucing halfway through the baking process? Or with a minute or two remaining? The structure of the dough should be set by then and then the pizza won't look like you just dumped sauce on it after it was finished cooking.
Hey Charlie. I just stumbled upon your channel and got a lot of good tips about bread in your Amarosa copycat vid. I was wondering if you ever tried using xanthan gum with some of your dough liquid . It's almost like making tangzhong without having to heat it up. I've had some really great success, but I think the quality of the brands differs a bit. Anyway, when mixing it with a high-speed or hand blender, it forms a very tough film that I tried to break in my vacuum pressure, and the bubbles just kept getting bigger without breaking. It's used in many food items, so it's perfectly safe. I thought it could be of interest if you haven't really tried it, of course.
