How John Piper & Matt Chandler Smuggled Confusion Into The Church 

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“Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good.” ‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭

"God Doesn't Whisper" - Jim Osman - a much-needed book today.

LOVE THIS

Prophets of old were courageous men, called by God, to warn men to turn from sin and trust in God or judgement was coming. We prophesy over men today when we share the gospel with them. We call them to turn from sin and trust in Christ or judgement is coming. We know what’s coming by hearing the Word of God. Prophecy is not “hearing from the Lord” and speaking something new.

Revelation. Interpretation. Application

Regardless, it’s a direct command to seek the gifts especially that you may prophecy. It’s a direct command not to despise prophecies. If you care about sola scriptura you should obey those texts too.

i think it's easier to be a cessationist if you are post mil. when I was historic pre mil I had trouble understanding how you could argue that the gifts had ceased because it was hard to see the times had changed since the time of the apostles

I always was taught that if a prophecy did not come true, than it wasn't from God. Mormons have a theory called 'tacking,' that explains how they can have false prophecy. They say that it's like a ship moving in the sea, back and forth, to and from, until it finds the right path. I never heard a protestant make this sort of argument. Interesting word.

Sincere question here: can someone point me to a resource explaining 1 Cor 12? As to why these gifts mentioned are not all for today? Like when did they stop, who said so, where; if we read and get teachings today from these epistles, and are taught about being the Body of Christ and using our gifts (sermons made from this passage and others) then why ignore the “spiritual“ (if you will) gifts as tho they r not mentioned as part of this passage 😕☹️. I probably butchered this paragraph, or really am unsure how to put my questions on the matter out there. 😞

3:05 Hebrews 1 indicates that God formerly spoke through prophets but has spoken by His Son. Hebrews was written when Cessationists accepted prophesy was still an active gifting. How's that work?

Great message brother. What sermon is this from?

I know I'm late to the game here, but wanted to also say that this is a good, solid word. I've been listening to this channel more and more as what I'm hearing seems very biblically sound and robust. Yeah, the sign gifts are an area of disagreement between me and Matt, which makes for rich conversation with my wife and kid (she's from a charismatic tradition in her childhood and he's still very young) after some Sunday services. "Confusion" is the word indeed, and the danger is a resultant frustration or disillusionment that ultimately leads to a janky worldview or even apostasy. Continuationist, by way of pure imagination, are blind to the simple fact that the miraculous has always been the exception. We're not to think that every merchant, farmer, mother, and child had the experience of their prophets and priests... that's why there were prophets and priests. Cessationism is no more a denial of the modern miracle than it is of miracles in biblical times. Rather, it hinges on the word "normative." A Cessationist who misunderstands this is just as much in error as the Continuationist.

The Holy Spirit is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore. And still speaks to the heart of man. There’s nothing to prove otherwise.

In daniel 9:24-27, it’s clear that vision and prophecy would be sealed at the end of the 70 weeks. Furthermore, if we understand the 70 weeks of Daniel properly (without the inserted/forced gap between the 69 & 70 week), the sign gifts would be sealed at the fall of Jerusalem. The apostolic gifts were for the last days (Acts 2) of the old covenant system. We now have word made more sure (2 Peter 1:19).

“‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ (Acts 2:17-21)

100% agree. Thanks again brother. Please address 1 Thessalonians 5:219-21. That’s another one they go to. They say I (we) quench the spirit if I (we) say these special gifts have ceased. I think you pass fail analogy would fit here as well.

I didn't know about those excuses. (I'm calling them excuses.) The church I go to permits prophecy; so now I'm going to keep my ears open for their reasoning behind it. I have heard false prophecy, but I classified it as false prophecy, and my heart keeps me from wanting to call the person a false prophet. It's a very sad confliction to be in.

So the assumption is that there are New Testament prophets? How would they function if all revelation is fulfilled and there is no longer, thus sayeth the Lord” but now, “thus the Lord hath previously spoke from Holy Scriptures.”??? Are there New Testament prophets called by the Lord?

I’m also hearing clear eisegesis when you are teaching, based on an assumption ( your word),that these gifts have ceased. Please exegete for us where these gifts ceased? Blessings

Were they supposed to stone the New Testament prophet who prophesies falsely after they weighed what was said?

In the Old Testament getting and being right with God was achieved by one way and in the New Testament getting and being right with God was achieved by another way, so yes OT prophecy could differ to NT prophecy.

genuine question pastor If revelation gifts ceased, then why need to weigh prophecy? not true vs false but all false?? I was bit confused for need… did prophecy decrease then cease by close of cannon?

If humility prevails and the title of this video is changed, I think you’ll keep a lot more subscribers. But as has been mentioned, the title here is just out of place..and sadly not at all an uncommon trend amongst RU-vidrs seeking to build audiences. Critique a big name, get views..effective..but not above reproach! Blazing gun polemic pastors firing off criticisms against men 5 decades their senior is a disturbingly trendy content niche these days. It hurts my soul. 1 Timothy 5:1 rings loudly. Live above the algorithm games, and more importantly..live above an inordinate lean towards polemics. RU-vid seems to attract a preponderance of people with the unique gifting of “polemic crusader”. But my hopes are that this is not at all going to be the trajectory of this channel and ministry!

"Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge" judge ? greetings from germany !

I agree, could you do a video on Doug Wilson’s ecumenism?

How did people 3000 years ago know a prophecy was from God when the prophecy was for the far distant future? Many have not happened yet, but they are considered scripture.

So where do Chandler and Piper come into this?

What you described as New Testament prophesy is a description I have never heard from any continuationist.

The natural must judge and fill saved

Do you ever think your interpretation of the scripture could be wrong? The debate surrounding the gifts has been going on for hundreds of years. Would you fellowship or learn from noncessationists? Knox wasn’t should we disregard his contribution towards the advancement of the gospel or what about John Wesley? I do agree there are some problematic takes with Chandler and Piper but this is one I don’t think I would take at this point in time.

Pastor Joel, I really appreciate your teaching on God's design and order in the family, church and society, your preaching against antinomianism, against wokeness infiltrating the church and so on. With all due respect, I'm so sad to see you have gone horribly wrong here - to the extent of potentially blasphemy. Because people abuse the grace of God (antinomianism or easy believism) doesn't mean we invent another way for justification - they abuse it to their own peril and God's saving grace is only for the elect being saved. Likewise, because people abuse (or manifest counterfeits of) the gifts of the Holy Spirit does not mean we (knee-jerk) invent an idea that certain gifts have ceased (1 Cor 13:8 is talking about Christ's return you would agree). And please note Scripture does not categorise the 'sign gifts' (that you mentioned) separately from others (teaching, helping, administrating, ....). This issue is not about Piper or Chandler - this is about GOD's work in building his people up in faith in the church and man dare say anything he is not sure of. Both Old (Saul, Nathan) and New Testaments (Agabus, Philip the evangelist's daughters) have examples of people who prophesied but who were not inspired human authors of Scripture. However (from a cessationist perspective), if prophesy meant only speaking out Scripture (or teaching as some say), how could there be women who prophesy (in the sense of teaching as God's Word clearly prohibits it)? Thanks for the other video teaching (correctly) that headcovering is relevant and important to follow today as well but that teaching cannot make sense from the meaning 'cessationism' (at least what I have heard) gives the word prophecy either! I don't believe the apostle is commanding us to weigh or test whether something is Scripture on a day-to-day basis. We already know what Scripture is - Jesus attests Peter as the rock on which he will build the church and he in turn attests Paul's work as Scripture. I believe the apostle is asking us to weigh whether the prophecy (that which is not Scripture as in Acts 2:17) is of God or not - (1) it needs to conform to truth of Scripture, and (2) it will have to come to pass. I'm not considering the fallible prophecy argument coming apparently from Piper at all here. I believe it's not about the prophecy apart from Scripture being less certain than Scripture - it's that these two kinds of prophecies have different roles in the life of the church. The 'Scripture' category of prophecies coming from the biblical authors (either directly from apostles or written from apostolic tradition and therefore having apostolic authority in the NT) make them profitable and authoritative for teaching and allied activities (2 Tim 3:16). Whereas prophecy apart from Scripture has its own place and purpose in God's plan of building his church up - examples include foretelling the future (Acts 11:28, 21:10), causing conviction (1 Cor 14:24) and so on in individual/corporate lives and circumstances. I would really so encourage you to pray much about this matter and reconsider your teaching as it has great implications (1) you could be found misrepresenting God's sovereignty and ministry through the Holy Spirit (because it does not fit your theology), (2) people are being misled here, and (3) true believers are potentially being excluded from your ecumenism. I pray for your ministry and hope there will be great unity amongst true believers built through your work but I think you are not confident here and making a terrible mistake (which could have spiritual implications as we rely on God's support for victory). I hope all this makes sense to you, brother. The enforcement of the authority of Scripture alone (i.e. apostolic authority) in church does not need the support of a cessationist doctrine as true prophecies from true believers today will not compete with Scripture!

good teaching Brother!

Brother how can you even compare the two chandler whom is a social justice defender and a heretic, and piper who is not a cessationist. This cessationism topic is not a topic worth dividing for as long as all the other doctrine is straight. I'm baffled really.

Thanks for naming names. I wasn't aware that Chandler and Piper were Continuationists. I can see from a comment below a quote from Piper proving he is a continuationist. I'm guessing from what I've found on the internet that Sam Storms, DA Carson, Mark Driscoll, Francis Chan and Wayne Grudem are also Continuationists. It's good to be aware of their theological positions before reading or listening to their teachings.

In both the Old and New Testament there were many prophecies that were never recorded probably because they were specific to a certain people at a certain time or place that were not relevant to the general revelation of God. These prophecies were not scripture. Also many OT prophecies could hardly be called "clear." They only became clear often 100 of years later & even then people disagree on the interpretation.

Whatbhas this to do with John piper and Matt Chandler??!! Furthermore you should read Hebrews 1:1-2.

It doesn’t matter whether I agree with you. I hope for your sake that you are correct. The New Testament is clear about the responsibility of a self declared teacher. If you are wrong, standing before God with your human understanding and assurance of your spiritual correctness will get you nothing. I believe the correct response here is to pray for the people that you have decided are wrong, let God work out the details in their life. The arrogance of Calvinists knows very little restraint, even though their is some truth to their beliefs, this is a perfect example of message and delivery that serves no purpose other than to self edify the messenger.

Ecclesiastes 3:15: “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.” The “natural man” cannot grasp that, for to him reality is based only on the evidence of the senses. The man of reason could justify the verse’s end, saying if it has any meaning then the writer must mean recurrence. The sun comes every day and the moon completes its cycle and the seasons come and go. If we took a picture of the universe today, the scientists can compute how long it will take to return to this point in the picture. So the intellectual man could justify the verse; but that is not what is meant, for it is addressed not to the man of reason or the man of sense, but to the man of Imagination. What is it all about? “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been, and God seeks what has been driven away.”

The biggest eisegetes out of the two will always be the cessationists.

Yep, i agree, title is misleading but the content is good. Clickbait to be sure

0:40 Stop slandering all continuationists. I don’t follow Piper or Chandler, nor believe in an unclear prophecy or a different standard for prophecy in the OT and NT. That’s what YOU believe: God spoke whenever He wanted back then, but He doesn’t anymore. There is nothing in the OT or NT says prophecy ceases at AD 70. That’s your extrabiblical dogma.

1 corinthians 13:9 "For we know in part and we prophesy in part,".... Please explain. And I cant believe you would say that those who believe the "sign" gifts (there is no verse that says there are sign gifts) use eisegesis when you have literally no verse in the entire Bible to back your beleif. YOU read into the text some nonsence that tickles your logic. "Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up." ( 1 Cor 14:5).... "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized." (1 Cor 14:37-38) You're opposing God and his Spirit

There are other definitions of prophesying in the Old Testament. Look at Saul

I have to point out the fact that you (unintentionally) snuck in the word “profitable” when referring to prophets. Nice. My 7 year old would have died laughing.

God poured his spirit out on all flesh… except cessationists

Lucas 13:25.

Click bait!!!! Had nothing to do with the names mentioned. Kind of deceitful, don't you think?

Jesus says John the Baptizer was the last of the prophets. The spirit of prophecy however is still alive and well (1 Cor. 14:3). We must be clear on this, and you are not in this video.

You would do better if you take piper’s position point by point and comment on it

Brother, be careful of casting aspersions on these men as if they are in the same category as a deceiver or heretic. The idea of “smuggled confusion into the church” is accusatory and divisive. The point you make can be made without the flash of the headline you give and the discrediting that the title of this segment promotes. While all of us pastors (including Piper and Chandler) need to be discerning and sensitive in the Scripture and its relevant and appropriate application, so do RU-vid titles and the posture of our media messaging. Piper and Chandler are not even cited in the message nor given a fair and thoughtful treatment. Would you say the same thing about John McArthur given he is premillennial? Has John “smuggled confusion into the church” as well? Therefore, please reconsider the title of this post.

And if tongues and prophecy is good enough for Paula White...

This is what courage looks like. I’m sick of people like John MacArthur speaking boldly but leaving out direct names. It’s cowardice. But this man Joel, he’s the real deal.

Womp womp

Cessationism is by far the greatest heresy of our time and the greatest example of Eisegesis I can think of. There is no scriptural support for the cessationist viewpoint and it has systematically robbed the church of its identity and power for centuries. Truly heart breaking…

Shameless click bait lol. Do you have any teachings of where does it say the gifts have ceased. Because 98% of TV money grubbing charismatics make a mockery of the gifts it doesn't mean they ceased. I have experienced tonges as someone speaking their native language and others hearing their native tonges in an abortion clinic a few times and of course we still see healing not by 1 person specifically but by Gods will there's still healing. Maybe the sign gifts make a visit as God wills it (No verse to prove it either only experience) Can you point me in the direction where it says everything has ceased?

Not sure who this man is talking about. But he is way off...same GOD TODAY YESTERDAY AND FORE EVER MORE..NOT BECAUSE THERE ARE FALSE PROPHETS NOW DOESN'T MAKE GOD'S WORD TO BE DONE AWAY WITH.

Chandler's biggest problem is CRT wokeness.

This is not good

I hung up on Matt Chandler when he had to make his snarky comment a while back when he said something to the effect that “your little AR15 is not going to protect you…”. Welcome to the woke soy church.

Peculiar Piper and Cringy Chandler are exactly what is wrong with the Pop Reformed movement.

Uh… John Piper and Matt Chandler were not mentioned once in this clip. Stop name dropping to increase viewers. If you are insinuating that both Piper and Chandler are teaching what you are teaching against then provide evidence. There are also standards for false witness against a brother.

I'm a continuationist, because it's Biblical. It's not extra-Biblical.

Piper isn’t a completely bad guy, he’s just a bit effeminate. I wouldn’t be surprised if