How Mario and Luigi Perfected TBRPG's 

I agree, but you can Superguard in TTYD to not take any damage, and every enemy has a unique attack you need to learn just like in the M&L games

I think the problem is you’re saying that it’s straight better. I also prefer the Mario and Luigi rpgs, and I’m not a big fan of typical ones (haven’t even played ttyd yet), but to disregard them as nothing but worse is really shortsighted. Some people prefer to have it be a numbers game, hell I’ve heard people say they don’t like Mario and Luigi because of how much dodging is the focus without much strategy on choosing moves/actions. A reason people like other rpgs is because of the different strategies you can bring to fights, some better than others. Its opinion on which game style is “better”

Was expecting someone just gushing out their love for the mario and luigi games, but watching the whole video just feels you made it as an excuse to under mine other rpgs

Something you are overlooking is how much taking damage also contributes to strategy. It’s all about how you deal with it. There’s defense buffs, attack debuffs, element resistances, how you are going to heal, IF you should heal. A very big one is also resource management. With the guarantee of damage, you start to consider how using things like items or health in this fight to get its rewards will affect your chances of getting through the rest of the fights in a dungeon. A lot of this gets thrown out/mitigated when you can avoid damage like in M&L as the strategy now becomes “just dodge the attack”. The reason it works in M&L is because the game is all about dodging, but it’s not a replacement for all the strategic potential of damage, it’s its own separate thing. Same with Undertale, since it is largely a bullet hell. Also the example of queen bean isn’t an example of something exclusive to this format. It’s pretty simple to imagine in another game. The queen deals consistent party wide damage each turn, and you can lower that by getting rid of her arms, but now she’s summoned enemies that like, inflict status effects that might be worse than taking the constant damage or maybe explode after a couple of turns, forcing you to focus damage on them too avoid that. Also the point about grinding is largely untrue, at the least nowadays. Pretty much no game requires grinding that strategy can’t make up for.

This is kinda something a friend of mine does, and I find it just as baffling here. You're acting like the preference is strictly better, when it's only your preference. Mario and Luigi's system has a lot of flaws as well, including the lack of variety in ways to DO combat. It's literally just "hit them, and dodge." Which, it needs to be that way because the system rewards never taking damage so "strategy" can only boil down to doing as much damage as you can. The "engagement" factor literally stops build diversity, because your choice is "Spark vs Lightning Bolt" and you will always choose 3 damage over 2. And not everyone is going to be okay with that for what boils down to making combat physically interactive instead of mentally interactive. Personally, I think there isn't a "perfect" rpg system. Just as there isn't a perfect shooter. Some people like Doom-likes or Quake similar games. Some people are boring and like CoD or Battlefield. Some people like the tightness of CS. And some people like the variety in Hero Shooters. You can't fit the good qualities of each into some abomination, because they come with their own checks and balances. Doom-likes and Cod-likes for example, are WAY looser and fast paced. Whereas CS is about being tight and methodical. Hero Shooters are about character imbalance, whereas the others are about an even playing field. So just like someone like me can have a favorite RPG in the SMT Devil Survivor games because of the progressive build crafting that rewards careful planning through even the small fights, a fun positioning based tactics map similar to Fire Emblem and other TRPGs, and actual story implications all throughout the game in combat and in the Visual Novel sections... You can enjoy your Mario and Luigi combat for having tight, physically interactive battles where you can feel rewards for dodging each attack or perfectly landing your Bros Attacks. They can't ever truly mix without sacrificing parts of the other, but they definitely both have checks and balances for why we individually like those games.

turn based rpgs do have skill its just not the same, they are really resource management games. you have to manage what health items and spells you have, sure you can grind but in a lot turn based rpgs if you are smart about how you use what you have you really don't have to grind. i understand the criticism but you are criticizing a lot of the things that people actually like about turn based combat so i just don't think most games in the genre are for you to be honest.

What I honestly don’t get about this video is the needless putting down of other games, you’re 100% in the right when it comes to why Mario and Luigi’s combat system is great but putting other games down constantly to make those points just feels like you’re intentionally putting yourself up for hate, especially with how pointless talking about TTYD was in this video. You admitted you hardly even played the game so how can you assess its quality? And by that merit, it’s hard to say you can assess the quality of these other games you keep making comparisons to because you’ve set a precedent of you just abandoning games you don’t like pretty early in, when the point or real strategy in these games doesn’t come in until later, which is an actual problem you could’ve pointed out, that Mario and Luigi doesn’t suffer from as much due to the core dodging and counterattacking mechanics being there from the beginning, at least in Superstar Saga which is the main focus of comparison here.

I also heavily prefer M&L, but I’m not gonna pretend it doesn’t have its own flaws too. For one, dodging can become too easy and predictable on repeat playthroughs if you have a decent enough memory. I also find myself using the most recently unlocked bros attacks 90% of the time, completely neglecting the entire jump/hammer options. If you had the level of variety, and customization you do in the Paper Mario games, then that could fix most of those problems.

You saying Paper Jam is better than TTYD hurts a little. Paper Jam is the most bland, uninspired Mario RPG of all time, it's worse than Sticker Star honestly as Sticker Star had a lot of creative paper gimmicks, while Paper Jam just doesn't do anything interesting. The reason TTYD is special is because it does things with its characters and story that you wouldn't expect out of a Mario game, while also balancing a fine line of feeling like it still belongs in a Mario game. The battle system also has a lot of variation, as the game gives you the opportunity to build Mario in many different ways. While the Mario and Luigi games are good, I feel as if those games don't always reach the same heights with their combat or story even if they get really close.

I think that the reason turn-based RPGs never had dodging mechanics before M&L was that an RPG was just the video game form of RPG board games. In a RPG board game there is no feasible way to dodge an attack, imagine you hit your friend with an attack or something and he just says "Nuh uh, dodged it". When they made the video game version of board games, they just carried over what had already worked but thats the thing about video games, they have the ability to evolve a concept, and I think thats amazing. I think in the traditional sense of RPGs the best thing you can add instead of dodging directly is to make it like a 15-25% chance that you'll dodge an attack so like maybe you take the chance or something like that, and I think that the RPGs that do do that are just a little more fun because of it.

As someone who played almost to completion (halfway through chapter 7 and there are 8 chapters): You didn’t get far enough

This opportunity for dodging in turn based RPGs is one of the things that make undertale so amazing.

Nice video. Your take on turn-based RPGs is a very unique one, but I’d have to say I respectfully disagree. I see two main problems with the dodging mechanic, one in-game and one out. 1. It lowers the amount of strategy needed in the games. In most other (good) TRPGs, you have many different options at your disposal that do a variety of things, usually boiling down into overall categories: offensive and defensive. Offensive includes stuff like attacking, lowering the defense of your enemies, or setting up a dot. While defensive includes guarding, buffing defense, or healing, and both including game-specific mechanics. Now, the problem with complete dodging is the fact that it kind of negates large portions of the defensive decisions that the player can make because why do you need to heal when or do anything defensive at all you can just not get hit. I encountered this recently in my replaying of Dream Team not too long ago, where any defensive effects I just threw away in favor of a more offensive one, creating a fundamentally boring strategy. (side note: I still enjoyed the game; it just doesn’t scratch that strategy itch.) 2. It takes a lot of time and money to create an entire dodging system in a game. Every enemy needs at least one attack that needs to be programmed in, and bosses should typically have three to five attacks on top of any gimmicks they choose to have. Creating a lot of work that needs to be done and pulling away resources from other areas. If you look at Mario and Luigi, while the dodging is fun, the stuff you do on your turn just boils down to clicking your strongest attack, which can hit, and if you don’t have enough Bp, use an item. This is especially noticeable in Undertale, which didn’t have that Nintendo budget, where the RPG side, not the bullet hell side, is one of the most bare-bones systems I have ever seen. It boils down to either attacking repeatedly or using the specific act option, then sparing. Now, I'm not saying that having a dodging system is bad, not at all; I love the Mario and Luigi series and have played every game multiple times. But adding dodging to a game means it has to be the main mechanic if you don’t want the game to have a realistic budget or timeframe. I’d love to hear your thoughts about my take on your video.

This is great and all, but the SMRPG remake does a lot of this decently as well.

I do like Mario & Luigi more personally, but I also don't think that either system is bad. It's more just about what part of your brain you prefer to work. Traditional RPG's are more geared toward the thinky part of the brain as the numbers game is the whole point. you can get very in depth with that stuff. On the other hand games like Mario & Luigi is more reacty. You trade out the action of thinking to push past the damage with the action of timing and muscle memory that comes with hitting and dodging attacks. Paper Mario is interesting as it poses a near perfect middle ground to this where you have the reacty bits of timing safeguards and just like mario and luigi getting off action commands for your attacks. It just relies a bit more on the numbers game by making it much much harder to avoid that damage. You can see that in the two games battle systems as Mario and Luigi's consumables are very small in scope. either replenishing HP, SP or clearing status effects. Paper Mario has much more depth in the item system with more things that give temporary buffs or debuffs, like applying status conditions are raising/lowering stats for a bit. I could say more probably but that would require time and research. might as well make a video essay at that point...

Yes, RPG’s are archaic in nature and very simple But with simplicity comes strategy Not to mention many RPG’s have unique mechanics which may help to circumvent many of the issues mentioned, which you also said in this video And some of the issues are nitpicks or problems not necessarily emblematic of the *game* Such as hitting a brick wall and not being able to progress because of an enemy who’s too strong Your engagement with the game and willingness to engage with its mechanics defines your relationship with it And this circles back around to strategy, as well Something as minuscule as having to beat enemies to gain EXP and level up, AKA playing the game, shouldn’t be considered a criticism It is understood you aren’t the biggest fan of RPG’s, but this bias shouldn’t play a part in the point you’re trying to make if you truly believe it, there will always be a logical way to present that information to others EDIT: Look at something for what it is, not what it isn’t

Im feeling like this guy just forgot about the fact that rpg fans actually like numbers and grinding. You may not like it but there's an entire community enjoying this. So no, traditional rpgs are not badly designed, you just don't like them

Legend of the 7 Stars lets you completely avoid damage, it requires a Perfect Guard though which only has like a 1 or 2 frame window to execute, I think multiple games support this including The Thousand Year Door. Mario And Luigi games have you time dodge maneuvers to completely dodge damage and it feels more tactile than just timing a button press with little visual feedback. The other good thing about the Mario & Luigi games is that the enemies *choreograph* their attacks! This is also present in I think Thousand Year Door.

If you'd like a RPG series that lets you move around and dodge enemy attacks, go and give the Megaman Battle Network series a shot. They have a really awesome battle system.

My first game was Pokemon Diamond. Then bowsers inside story. At the moment bowsers inside story is my favourite. But when I tried bug fables which is based off the original paper Mario combat system and it was full of strategy. Very excited to play thousand year door. It may just take the throne from bowsers inside story

Indie game dev and lifelong M&L fan here! I've been cooking an idea for a unique turn-based combat system for a while, but I'm not doing any work on it now. However, I found another developer working on a full spiritual successor to the M&L series and it looks so good! It's called "Hunter Chronicles: Vyn and Tara" by Paro the Dev. I have no clue how far into development they are, but I've been following their Game Jolt and Steam pages for a few months now. I think they're trying to start a Kickstarter soon. I don't know them by the way, I just want the legacy of M&L to stay alive and reach more people lol

You should try Bravely default! When you use defense, you gain one more action next turn. That way you are reward to defend when necessary. Also, octopath traveler use a similar system

Mario and luigi is a fun series.

You're not stupid, you're just biased, and thats ok. Even if we'll hate you for it. 👍 Jokes aside, you're right, it is far more interactive than classic tbs, buut.. i think that's why traditionalists don't like it. The traditional formula is pure and fun for those who enjoy that. I enjoy the interactivity and luck-pushing skill involved in the paper mario games.

If you taking about the Timed Hits and counteractive measures? Then yes. More RPGs should be like this.

Honestly, when it specifically comes to Paper Mario (and Bug Fables) the fun from the game comes from strategy, where you figure out what the best moves are to use and what order to use them. It makes items and using your moves correctly more necessary because usually the reason why you die in a Paper Mario/Bug Fables game is because the general strategy was off rather than bad stats, it’s very structured to avoid grinding and being under or over levelled as long as you just… fight the enemies you come across I personally don’t think Mario and Luigi has the kind of deep level of strategic fighting that Paper Mario/Bug Fables has, it’s instead a lot more of a “game” RPG, where it’s a lot more focused on having skill in battles, which is great in its own way because of all the reasons mentioned in the video Mario and Luigi is incredible, and that doesn’t mean Paper Mario isn’t it’s fair you don’t like it, but Paper Mario has value nonetheless and is still very deep in its mechanics I know you likely won’t care or do so, but play Bug Fables, it was my first exposure to the Paper Mario system and I loved it just as much as I loved Mario and Luigi and it goes so much further on the depth of strategy than TTYD did and no, it’s not nostalgia, I played and experienced M&L first and have only played actual Paper Mario yesterday for the first time also also, that Paper Jam take pisses me off, Paper Jam is awful and killed Mario and Luigi, nobody should want to play that trash

What I always do during the Queen Bean fight is just keep using my hammers to keep the queen at a distance so I can easily dodge the shock waves as it gives me more reaction time. Sure, each attack only does 1HP of damage whether I get the timing right or not, but as a whole, the fight is a lot easier with that strat.

You should play athenian rhapsody. It's also an indie turn based rpg made by one guy.

Honestly I'm of the camp that both Paper Mario and M&L are wonderful TBRPG's

super guard in paper mario thousad year door

Oh geez. I don't even know where to begin, there are many, inaccuracies in your video(in regards to rpgs as a whole), and your perspective on some things is entertaining at best. I overall understand what you're saying and understand why you prefer Mario and Luigi. And why you feel it sets the bar for turn based rpgs.However, you speak as if you are an authoritarian on rpgs as a whole, even though you admit you don't get the appeal. But that's the thing, it's OK to not like something but to say that some things in mario and luigi are blatantly better when they are not, in comparison to the rpg genre as a whole, is blasphemy. The biggest issue I have is saying dodging is strategic......... like, are you serious? There is nothing strategic about dodging. What do you have to gain by getting hit? A game over? Yeah a game over. Strategy has layers which is what makes the best rpgs like persona, final fantasy, smt, sea of stars, and octopath traveler great rpgs and what m&l lacks. Also undertale is an anti-rpg, it's an rpg in name only, kinda like zelda. Still tho, I will agree that on the surface m&l is way more engaging since it requires button timings, and the timings are make the game feel dynamic and get your blood flowing. Ff6 with m&l mechanics wouldn't really be ff6, but it sounds fun nonetheless. Just be careful with stating certain things as fact.

You gotta play the megaman battle network games man they are rpgs with a unique battle system where its stll turn based but instead of choosing spells you chose cards and after that you're on a grid where you can move around and dodge enemy attacks. Enemies also move around its pretty fun and i think you'll enjoy them .

1:22 wild way of admitting that you have opinion equivalent to dog water but hey... you do you boo

I understand why you don't like a lot of turn based RPGs, but Paper Mario 1 & 2 really do sidestep a lot of your complaints already. The low numbers increase the strategy and make it so its more about your decisions than "your numbers vs their numbers", and the depth of badge customization means it's not even hard to beat both games without taking any damage at all.

ngl even though dream team isnt that amazing i can safely say it has the best turn based battle system out of any rpg i ever played, you cant cheese dodges, attack are harder to dodge, so much more movement is involved when dodging, attacks are top notch and satisfying, banger battle music, crunchy sfx, really it has it all this combat system feels multi dimensional because of how much you move up and down and left and right depending on what attack or event is happening in the battle which open up new possibilities to how to dodge than just time a button press, the enemies attacks here are also way faster and they often try to trick you but disturbing the rhythm of the attack to catch you off guard, and again since the enemies now attack from different angles you need to adapt to the depth perception to time when to counter, what could i say i really like the combat in dream team, defiantly the best in the series by far may i just add how interesting all versions of it are all of them have all of this properties but they differ in minor stuff that drastically change how you perceive this fights the normal battles are the classic balancing of the two brothers constantly keeping an eye for both of them dreamy battles however since you only control mario the focus shifts, attacks are much more frantic because youre focusing on just one character so all the attacks that are normally aimed at both bros is now aimed at just mario, thats for dodging but when attacking since you only get one turn your attacks have much more oomph to them, theyre way WAY powerful and often target multiple enemies which is a rarity in normal battles, to compensate the number of the enemies is much much higher, the result is something similar to normal battles but distinct in its presentation and feel and somewhat mechanically but not too much to call it a new system, no this is a complementary system Lastly, mega battles are back from bowser inside story and far far FAR better now, the scale is big and the camera shifts really shows you how big you are, the change of perspective when doing any action really add to epicness of the set piece your attacks and the enemy's attacks also have much more oomph than even the dream battles, it gives you the feel of two giants battling crushing anything beneath them, pretty nice setpiece to enjoy after a big accomplishment overall yeah this is by far the best battle system in any rpg ever, feel free to disagree but personally even tho i think dream team is just an 8/10, the battle system is a masterpiece in design that everyone whould try at some point

needing to grind is only a problem if the exp curve is set up poorly. if the developers are careful, you can have it so that your levels from fighting the enemies you encounter from natural progression make you on par with any regular enemy. a lot of rpgs don't do this unfortunately, but the good ones usually do. and the thing about dodging is that it removes an aspect of rpgs that i really enjoy, and that is resource management. your health and magic and items and whatever else are resources that you need to manage effectively in order to survive. you need to effectively plan out how to ration them out in order to clear out an area until yoy can hit the next town so you can restock. i really like it, and being able to dodge removes that aspect and replaces it with mechanical skill, which is a different form of skill that i find less interesting in an rpg because nearly EVERY other type of game rewards that. resource management and strategy are a different type of skill that is no less valuable, and i think dismissing them out of hand as "luck" feels very narrow minded

Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario are both my Favorite games because of Action commands

I don’t know if should recommend the xenoblade series they aren’t turn based but they’re not like Mario and Luigi it’s more of an mmorpg, things will happen without your input but you need to do something to actually win also there are like 50 different mechanics that vary in importance but if…IF you are willing to learn and just feel things out (smash your head against the wall) trust me they are very satisfying to play

TTYD literally has a counter attack move where you can take no damage and its harder to execute than the regular block.

I didn’t even know this game existed. Maybe they can do a remake like they have with The Thousand Year Door. Looks like fun. Great video. Thanks.

Bro, i played this game for the first time a year ago and i liked it more than every other mario rpg (i have played them all). It’s not because of nostalgia, i do not have any nostalgia for it. We all have different opinions, just because someone likes TTYD more than M&L does not mean they’re wrong. Not every TTYD fan is a “TTYD Simp” or “Paper Mario Shill”. Let people like what they like. M&L is not better than PM, and PM is not better than M&L. I do not like M&L as much because it almost has zero strategy, and it’s battles take forever with no health bar or clear sign of progress. I do not like M&L as much because it simply does not appeal to my tastes more than TTYD. I still really like both, but TTYD appeals to me more. The reason turn based RPGs get a pass is because your tastes are simply in the minority, but that does not invalidate your opinion, WE ARE JUST DIFFERENT. Get that through your head for gosh sake.

Just sounds like someone needs to get gud lol

you should play worldless it has a block a dodge and a counter and really great turn based combat

I don't hate TTYD, but I agree that it's not the best Mario RPG. By the time I played this one on GameCube there had already been two better Mario RPG's with both Mario and Luigi games, at least in my opinion. I still enjoyed this game very much when I did play it, but the latter half of the game really brings it down with all the backtracking. I actually couldn't get through it when I replayed it again later on the Wii, and after playing my favorite Mario RPG, Bowser's Inside Story. I even put Suprr Paper Mario above this game based on its story alone. I'm glad Nintendo is revisiting this one with some quality of life changes, I'm still going to buy it because I had a lot of fun with it my first playthrough, but it's still not as good as the Mario and Luigi games, even Dream Team in some ways. Paper Jam, I never bothered finishing

0:31 Oh wow bro, there was no need to be that livid about it tho, it's fine if you and many others don't like it that much

Believe it or not, but I think Toby Fox actually was inspired M&L when makimg Undertale. Iirc, he said he wanted a combat system that was as engaging as those games.

Idk but personally TTYD is one of my favorite games of all time, played it last year before it was revealed in the early months. Beat it for the first time it’s just a preference thing probably but easily in my top 5

Just Another Sam, You're so talented! I had to hit the like button!

LMAO. Sorry, just wanted to make fun of how stupid the title is. Play games that aren't made by Nintendo. Here, have your interaction for baiting with the dumbest takes imaginable

Ah yes. You "borrowed" tye game.

I’m sorry i need to make another comment and I’m sorry if i sound upset, Im not. but none of your points are really making sense. if this was a “M and L vs Final Fantasy/Octopath/Dragon Quest/Pokemon/ every other turn based rpg” i would get it. every point you’ve made applies to paper Mario ttyd, good and bad minus one very specific thing. PM has action commands just like ML. you can avoid all damage just like ML with counter, AND. even if you HATE it. it DOES require skill, paying attention to enemy habits and attacks, and means you CAN beat the game AT level 1 if you REALLY want to. ML has extremely fun mechanics and story and bosses that require planning and thinking. PM is the same. enemies throwing helpful things at you is a mechanic in the crowd and requires you to pay attention when to attack the harmful haters or let the fans help you. the ONE example that you gave that doesn’t happen in paper Mario, is the sniffits requiring you to stand still for an attack. something you actively dumped on earlier, saying that each enemy attacks essentially the same (and that you said that’s a pro for you) so it means you can dodge every attack (which is not very correct as we’re assuming people aren’t playing the same game more than once or even twice) paper Mario for all intents and purposes is the same. people throw things, shoot things, do all sorts of attacks. but the most standard attacks are ramming and jumping on you. they have different timings. that’s where the gamplay variation comes in. no one wants to have 4 attacks between 130 enemies all game. there’s a reason attacks are different in both series. that’s a GOOD thing. i really have no clue what has made you so angry about ttyd, both superstar saga and paper Mario 64 expanded so immensely on Mario RPG in a way that made stale turn based rpg combat turn into something that requires timing and button combos, meaning it’s possible to fail things and take damage that IS your fault, not the games. also, realistically, you’re thinking about it so intensely for no reason. people herald ttyd because many of us grew up with the first 2, and then Super paper Mario (as much as i love it) was the first time we’d never go back to that old type of paper Mario, and every game after was riddled with issues. ttyd came out 20 some years ago. Mario and Luigi had maybe one bad game before alpha dream went under. Half of the paper Mario series has an identity crisis, some wouldve even argue two thirds of it. people don’t think ttyd is the best game to ever exist ever and everyone should think it so, but it is many peoples favorite game. it’s ok.

yo new video lets go!

thousand year door unplayable due to audience system

1:53 no.. I agree 100% I’d rather play the first 3 M&L games before I’d play the first 3 paper Mario games 3:32 GAMEGRUMPS 5:08 SULLYPWNZ I LOVE SULLYPWNZ AND GAMEGRUMPS SO TO SEE THESE IN A VIDEO MADE RECENTLY MAKES THIS A 11/10

Bro I agree I love mario and luigi more than paper mario but what is this about "please I don't want to take damage since it lessens my skill expression"

Loved the video! Whole-heartedly agree!

Paper Jam kinda GOATed tho

So the Mario and Luigi series is better because of the same mechanic the other games have?

Mario and Luigi series(Mario rpgs in general) are typically referred to as “Baby’s first RPG”

I understand what are you trying to say, im a big fan of the mario and luigi games and love the dodge mechanic in those. But i think you are misunderstanding depth with engagement. In most RPG where you cant dodge damage, makes so that every turn you have to make a decision and manage your resources and im not talking about only mana, health is also a resource in most RPGS, basically every encounter has a price, you can either use basic attacks and waste health, use a major attack and waste mana instead, or maybe use an item to avoid the battle. This is my opinion gives depth to the system, in an RPG, the ability to make the correct decision multiple times in a row is what makes you a good player. You may not like this, and that is perfectly fine, honestly an individual random encounter in an rpg is not very engaging, thats why grinding can be boring, cause you are esentially just choosing the same option over and over again. On the other the abilitie to dodge in Mario and Luigi doesnt give the combat more depth, the correct option is ALWAYS to dodge, there is no thought process of to dodge or not, if you are able to dodge you WILL dodge, this changes the health of the brothers from a resource to manage from a margin of error for your skill. This makes the Combat system has LESS depth. Every point you make about how the ability to dodge gives more depth, in my opinion makes the game more engaging, its fun to see the unique attack of every enemy, its fun to learn how to dodge them, and honestly i preffer that system. But i truly believe that is a less in depth system.

everyone hating on Dream Team. why? :(

Well, this was... something. I'm gonna start my comment by pulling my inner 🤓 and saying "That's not what TRPG means". But anyways, let's go point by point: 1. 00:00 - 01:23 There's no need to attack other games or fans of those games just to elevate your favorites. The TTYD intro is truly pointless. 2. 03:00 - 03:22 You... haven't played enough RPGs if you think that enemies not having a health bar is an inherent characteristic/issue of the genre. Literally all the examples you mentioned (Persona, Dragon Quest and Pokemon) use health bars on enemies. 3. 03:23 - 04:12 That's the point of having HP. It doesn't matter if you take *some* damage, the point of the games is keeping yourself alive by reducing the chance of taking more damage than you can heal. A someone else pointed it, it's all about resource management, so you can't say it reduces the amount of skill needed to win a battle. All in all, this isn't an issue, it's just a difference in design philosophy. Not liking it doesn't mean it's bad. 4. 04:13 - 04:22 "It's a game of whose numbers are bigger" Yes. That's how it is in Tabletop RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons. You roll the dice and if your number is bigger than required, you'll win. That gameplay mechanic was translated to the videogame genre and it's NOT a problem, it's just how games work. If you don't like it, then you don't like it, and that's totally fine, but RPGs are designed to work that way. 5. 04:30 - 05:02 Grinding is bad design, I agree. But once again, if you played more games of the genre, you'd know that most games don't really require grinding. At all. Most of the time you use skills to improve your character's offensive output or exploiting enemy weaknesses. If you're just gonna use basic attacks, you're not gonna have fun and have to grind. But usually by playing smart you can win almost all encounters without a real need to farm levels. You can literally throw yourself against the wall and eventually break it, as you put it. That's not exclusive to the M&L games. 6. 06:21 - 07:06 You need to study enemy attacks in all other RPGs other than Mario & Luigi. You talk as if in other RPGs enemies had only basic attacks and we both know that's not true at all. 7. 07:35 - 08:03 Dodging is not strategy, it's purely an action-based input. Mario and Luigi can only jump and use their hammers while dodging .You literally only have two options. Also, that's not what "immersive" means. Actually it's the other way around. If they can jump and use their hammers, why are they taking turns with the enemies? 8. 08:03 - 08:44 If you want to compare, there's lots of enemies on traditional RPGs that use a similar "countdown" mechanic as Queen Bean, which you can approach different strategies. That's not exclusive of M&L. The first examples I can easily think off are the Demon Wall from FF4 or the final boss from Trails to Azure. 9. 09:22 - 11:30 The "Don't do anything while the enemy attacks" has actually been implemented in several games already. You can't say only M&L (and Undertale) do this. 10. 11:35 By saying Undertale is the only non-Alpha Dream game to let you dodge just shows you really are talking from ignorance. For instance, the Yakuza/Like a Dragon games let you do that and you can't get more mainstream than that. 11. 12:19 - 12:31 The bosses ARE designed around the dodging mechanics. OF COURSE they would be bland if you couldn't dodge them. Once again, that's just a difference in design philosophy, not something that makes a game better/worse. 12. 12:47 - 13:06 Then what is even the point of saying "THIS IS SYSTEM IS BETTER" if you already know those are different designs made for different games???? 13. 13:42 That's an oxymoron. Look, I'm not here to tell you that you shouldn't talk about your opinions on the internet or anything like that, but one thing is talking about things you hate and another completely different thing is talking from ignorance, and you seem to be doing the second one. Before you start doing affirmations you should, *at the very least*, do some research to know if what you're gonna talk about is complete nonsense in the eyes of someone who has played more games and/or has more knowledge about [any theme] than you have.

you don’t have to like ttyd bro but it’s delusional to say it’s not a quality game in its genre, especially when you haven’t even gone a third of the way through. it’s ok to dislike the system and formula or turn based RPGs, Mario and Luigi is a fantastic series, and you clearly have a bias against paper Mario, but it shouldn’t anger you so much that people enjoy ttyd.

What the heck is a TRPG?

That is why I enjoyed super more then thousand years door. I just do not enjoy the turn base battle as I just have to take damage or over grind to plow through everything. That is why if I want to play RPG jump man I would just play the trilogy of jump man and green jump man.

I actually really enjoy these kinda essay vids where the opinion Is not the majority. If you got more like this stuff I'd love to sub. :) Also...podcast? :0

Okay after watching more of the video, I disagree about your general assessment of TRPGs, but TTYD isn't that great so we find brotherhood in that. Mario Plus Rabbids clears both series of RPGs either way tho I dont care what the comments say, you're based. I played the first 3 hours as well, and it's good, but like....why were people so adament about THIS ONE all these years? Of the 3 other Paper Mario games I've played other than this one, Super, Sticker and Oragmi (the only one I outright don't like being Sticker) it doesn't feel that much different than those games? It's an adventure game first, with combat being second. Just like the other games. I don't enjoy the combat for the sake of combat, its a vehicle to get to the story. The badges are neat but the game doesn't seem hard enough to really 'need' to optimize builds. Idk Mario and Luigi games clear as far as RPG mechanics go. People wouldn't shut up about this game and I just said "this is it?"

The Mario RPG's were the only RPGs I actually beat. M&L ftw

MLTRPG

Mentions skill and luck when the whole point of a turn based RPG is to strategize and plan your moves accordingly to the boss or enemy you’re fighting. Completely disregards superguarding and the 3 frame window required to do that in TTYD…. Yikes pack it up chump this content is just not it

Although I’ve been enjoying the TTYD remake a lot, I have to admit that Mario and Luigi did combat so well, I didn’t even realize it was a turn based RPG for so long

0:32 Man I feel the same way, it’s just the Among us effect in full action (people won’t shut up about something so you end up misdirecting your annoyance towards the thing itself.)

FINALLY SOMEONE THAT GETS MARIO & LUIGI IS THE SUPERIOR MARIO RPG

Awesome video. Keep it up!

Since I haven't seen this in the comments, I just want to confirm for you that Toby Fox has officially stated that his biggest inspiration for Undertale was Earthbound first, followed by the Mario and Luigi series.

One of the best videos I've seen, great job!

Love your style bro! God bless!

You don't know how much I wanted to hear the words "I don't like Paper Mario the Thousand Year Door", that's music to my ears. Do I agree with that hot take: no But is it refreshing: GOD YES!!

No, Mario&Luigi isn’t just flat out better. Stop the fanboyism.

Someone finally said it.

As someone who loves both Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi, I think you bring up a lot of good points! EVERY battle in Mario & Luigi is kept fair, fresh, and active! I do agree about the blandness of being unable to dodge in other TRPGs to an extent too. Even replaying Paper Mario games can be boring in the beginning cuz every battle is just "attack, get hurt, attack, win." It's also why I always hesitate before starting Square Enix TRPGs. However, I do think even TRPGs that don't allow dodging/countering still have just as much strategy as Mario & Luigi. There's lots to do with status effects, turn order, spells, specials, etc. My only problem with it being the amount of time it takes to unlock all these strategies. While the first 10 hours may just be the boring "attack -> win till it's grind time" strategy, the hours after that where we unlock everything else can be some of the most fun I've ever had. I do think other TRPGs could learn many things from Mario & Luigi though. While other TRPGs may take time to get really good, Mario & Luigi includes most other TRPG elements while making things fresh, fair, and fun straight from beginning to end, even on replaythroughs! That would personally be my argument for how Mario and Luigi Perfected TRPG's

I’d make a long counter-argument, but your entire video is just you re-iterating consistently that you don’t like planning ahead for combat. Your claims still apply to Mario & Luigi as a whole for the majority of the video, and simultaneously you push other games under the bus for “grinding” (Usually because you avoided the enemies that give you experience), “being forced to take damage” (something that you can inherently minimize or avoid in the games you used as examples, which is the core of turn based rpgs), and “being unable to play skillfully” (In Mario & Luigi, a game far less complex than that of any other game you listed), because of the ability to dodge things (something that can be done for any game you listed by speccing into Evasion or using a Persona or Skill that counters or nullifies the enemy elements), simply because you can’t be assed to actually inspect the opponents (while using Persona enemies as an example for a lack of uniqueness, a series GROWN on playing as tactically as possible by gathering enemy elements to play off of) before revealing the issue with the counter system (in that it is inconsistent, meaning you have to memorize EVERY INDIVIDUAL ENEMY PATTERN in the event you want to avoid damage, which is an issue with UNDERTALE too, but UNDERTALE’s attacks are handled differently, having more of a basis on Bullethells, which compliments the battle system in a better way). Claiming that strategy is stupid only to go into strategy also proves how little you actually looked into this. In fact, Queen Bean is a fight concept that legitimately exists in other games, as do speedrunning strategies for entire games. It just proves that you’re not capable of actually playing a normal RPG, something that in truth requires MORE CONSISTENT STRATEGY than the Mario & Luigi entries. By the way, there IS another turn based RPG with dodging mechanics- it’s called YS. But chances are, you’d struggle with it for ages given how adverse to planning you appear to be throughout the video. In truth, you are allowed to like Mario & Luigi, but putting other Role Playing Games down for the essential reason of “Skill Issue” is just hilarious to me.

I'm currently planning on making a Mario & Luigi like game. I'll be starting it after I get my first video game done.

Eh to each their own, i actually liked the combat paper jam offered but i got bored of the game and was never able to finish it.

He's out of line, but he's right.

M&L games are peak but your take on other rpgs is skill issue and L takes plus ratio plus baby skills

I agree with your points. It's honestly quite refreshing to hear someone give the Mario & Luigi games their due praise. And honestly I think Nintendo just making a new M & L game would be enough to get most people back on board with the whole dodging mechanic

Very brave of you to confess such a stupid opinion

Finally a good video!!!!!

Mario and Luigi bowser’s inside story will forever be the best Mario rpg.

this is exactly how I feel in reverse toward mario and luigi, I tried to get into superstar saga and bowsers inside story but they just didn't stick like any of the paper mario games (even the modern ones, tok my beloved) to me

Mario & Luigi wasn’t memorable like thousand year door was. And the GBA had a much bigger install base than the Gamecube. Says a lot.

Honestly, I agree with you. I’ve never liked the paper Mario games as much as Mario and Luigi

Youre not dumb. This is a good take

Finaly someone understands me!

I agree with everything you say here. I also don't enjoy RPGs for these reasons and some more I'm not going to get into here. And I prefer Mario and Luigi over Paper Mario, for the record. Dodging and counterattacking though is exactly what the Superguard in TTYD does, and it's amazing. Not only that, but no other Paper Mario has it. Shouldn't that make you like it at least a bit? I would really like to hear your general thoughts on TTYD and why you don't like it. Btw you sound like GrandPooBear.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Mario and Luigi devs (or publisher) has some patents that stopped people copying the mechanic.

Same dude

Great video KID

Skill issue