How Marvel Comics' Editors Ruined Hobgoblin 

The fact that DeFalco lied and said Ned Leeds was the Hobgoblin only to be fired _immediately_ so they were stuck with the _wrong plotline_ is hilarious to me.

The real Hobgoblin was the friends we made along the way.

One minor quibble: Ned Leeds is never shown as being the Hobgoblin in "Spider-Man Versus Wolverine". (At least not in the original printings; maybe its been modified on Marvel NOW). Peter returns to his hotel room to find Ned, in civilian clothes, tied to a chair with his throat slit. The implication in the issue was that Ned had been killed by the bad guys he was investigating.

Having Kingsley as the Hobgoblin is a perfectly acceptable solution for the mystery, but the whole identical brother who isn't a twin is a very Silver Age bit of silliness, and I can see why people didn't like Stern's idea. Also, as you mentioned, how does a fashion guy manages to achieve a chemical miracle like changing the Goblin formula so that it doesn't make the user insane, but retains every benefit it brings? Aside from that... yeah, going for an extended mystery in comics like this is very easily screwed up by the roll-out of writers that books can have. It also seems like Roger Stern didn't lay significant clues for the Hobgoblin's identity before he left the book, which in turn easily allows another writer to write someone else as the Hobgoblin.

Wow, I knew Hobgoblin's backstory was a mess due to several different writers all having opposing ideas for the character but I never realized it was this bad. It sucks that people had to be so petty and intentionally tried to ruin each others' work.

Has no one informed him that his camera has been out of focus for some time? What a cruel fanbase.

Man, this brings back memories. Stern's Spider-Man was a couple of years after I first got into comics. But the Hobgoblin story hooked me for sure. I'm a HUGE fan of Stern's Avengers also.

One of the biggest tragedies behind the cancellation of The Spectacular Spider-Man (the show) was that it seemed to be doing a more faithful version of the Hobgoblin, already setting up Roderick, and even Daniel in a more subtle manner. This could've been the Hobgoblin's big break in other media, especially since the 90's show ended up having him job to Green Goblin just because the showrunner didn't care about the character.

"I already drew it," is some strong Ozymandias energy.

The Tale of the Hobgoblin is a cautionary tale of editor interference that can effect a great idea and become the catalyst of the Clone Saga!

I always did find Hobgoblin to be an interesting villain. Even though he wasn't as powerful as the Green Goblin, he was still more than capable of giving Spider-Man a tough time in many encounters.

Marvel has a history of there being office mismanagement affecting comic storylines. Particularly with Spider-man. There's this Hobgoblin fiasco, The Clone Saga was a similar mess due to editor/writer B.S. and I'm pretty sure Nick Spencer cut his 'Kindred Saga' short due to differences with management.

A sad and surprisingly common trope in the comic industry is a major character reveal that ends up being changed by editorial interference. The faith that publishers have in writers in this section is disappointing

Making Ned Leeds the Hobgoblin always made me mad and it never fit with the hints of the character. There wasn't an internet around at the time so there didn't appear to be an uproar over it, but I was absolutely pissed. I will admit I was getting annoyed with them dragging out the identity too. I am with other's... Fisk's son would have been the best choice.

Man, at the time, I imagine the reader's patience being screwed by the Marvel editors teasing and screwing up the Hobgoblin identity and mystery, thanks to Roger Stern that came back to finish his story, but I mean, he came back almost 20 years later to finish his story. Great video!

Wow, I totally remember reading this run as a kid when it came out. I thought the reveal of the Hobgoblin's identity was a bit weak, too. Thanks for bringing back a memory of a simpler time, when my friends and I would head into town to our favorite shop and read all our new comics on the train on the way home. To think back on how much we complained when the price rose from 60 to 75 cents - LOL !!

Hobgoblin's fall is a master class in how too many cooks can spoil the soup! Especially when one is a fry cook rather than a chef. Growing up in that Hobgoblin era, Hobgoblin captured my friend's and my own imaginations! Green Goblin was just this cool villain you could occasionally see in a reprint book. He was widely considered to be Spidey's arch-enemy, but he had been dead for years. To have this master villain show up and take up the mantle fascinated us! Everyone wanted to be the first one to get to the drug store spinner rack to see if Hobgoblin appeared in an issue and if he would be revealed! Then the black costume became a thing and we started getting villains like the Rose and Jack o' Lantern showing up in the book and we all kind of lost interest. When they did that next arc between #259-261, I think I was the only one still reading Spidey and I was done after it came to nothing again. By the time of the "Flash Thompson reveal", I flipped through the book in the store and decided not to waste my money. And the "Ned Leed's Reveal"? When that one happened, I was shocked to see Ned dead in Spider-Man/Wolverine, since he was a pretty big minor character over the years and it seemed like a cheap death. But Ned as the Hobgoblin in Spidey #289? Just felt like another red herring. I know it's a difficult thing to do, but even in the best circumstances, you can't let a mystery go on and on forever. If it's a year or so, just about any reveal will be cool. You let it drag into two or three years, it had better be something major! And if it's going on five years or longer, you can rest assured nobody cares anymore. Christopher Priest did a lot of damage to the story, which he'll somewhat admit. But having Roger Stern leave the book before the reveal was definitely more damaging. Fingeroth should have sat him down and worked something out rather than have him just leave. Danny seems to have that mindset that a lot of bosses have..."Anyone can be replaced." Yes, but not effectively. Heck, I recently reported to my own job that I was giving notice because a human resources person cursed me out. And rather than just say: "See you later!", the boss sat me down, got to the root of the problem, and worked it out. And I'm still at my job. And probably more productive since I saw they place some importance on my job. Fingeroth just didn't seem to have that kind of sense. Perhaps he thought Stern didn't really HAVE a plan for Hobgoblin and was just milking it until it ran dry. But that is when you sit down and work out the story so the editor AND the other staff know what has been set-up. As an editor, you might have to nix Stern's choice if it's a character someone else plans to use or if it is someone that the ripple effect could cause major changes down the road. Spider-Man traditionally has a large cast to interact with, so you might not want to reveal a mainstay is the big villain. So, the editor should have been asking questions from Day One. And yeah, that wasn't Fingeroth. Hobgoblin's story is just kind of a How-Not-To-Do a character arc in retrospect. All things considered, though, those issues from Amazing Spider-Man #238-251 enthralled my small town! And I would guess that was kind of across the board. As to my opinion, Roger Stern's idea of Kingsley was probably a good one. He would have the money to do all that he did. And as a backstory progressed, motivation could have gotten interesting. A shame it didn't get to play out.

He should have just been Fisk's son I feel. It lines up nicely and would make it so that its a matter of a son trying to steal his father's crown. Even better would be when Fisk finds out and it becomes a matter of personal pride that he needs to show his son there are consequences to his actions. You could even use it to spark what is effectively a crime kingpin civil war that the heroes of New York need to deal with.

The funny thing about all of this is decades later, I'm half expecting Peters best friend in the MCU to become the Hob Goblin somehow. I'd be funny. I remember watching Harry in the original Spiderman trilogy and expecting him to become Hob Goblin. Gotta watch out for those best friends.

Kingpin's son being the Hobgoblin makes the most sense.

What a complete fustercluck. It's a shame, as I adore the idea of having a supervillain with a secret identity.

Man those covers back then were outstanding. They do the job of making me want to read the issue

The thing was that when Marvel decided to clear Ned Leeds of being the Hobgoblin was that they ultimately identified someone I never thought could possibly be on the list of suspects (no spoilers). As you said, Roger Stern wasn't able to really set up his suspect AS a suspect. In the end, he had become a minor character, so easily forgotten, that even when they pulled the "evil twin" twist, you couldn't believe it. And it was SO badly handled that Marvel hasn't been able to use the character since. I am convinced that the REAL reason they had to bring the original Green Goblin back was because they had so screwed up the Hobgoblin (AND the freaking Clone Saga, of course)! When Marvel finally revealed the Hobgoblin's "identity," all I could think of -- even THEN -- was how Marvel worked so hard to make Ned Leeds the Hobgoblin. They did everything but point a laser light in his direction in every scene. And then they killed him off in Spider-Man vs Wolverine to throw off any suspicions. And when Kingpin found out about Leeds' killing (several months AFTER SMvW), he wasn't happy, and he muttered to himself, "Well, if I could figure it out, he [the Foreigner, who sent the assassins who killed Leeds] could. After all, it was SO obvious!" Yeah. And then they had to doubletalk it back, making the Kingpin come off as an idiot. VERY badly handled.

A lot of inconsistencies and a lack of fun drove me away from Spider-man books at some point. It was Hobgoblin Lives that brought me back to the webhead. There was a lot of behind the scene vindictive behavior revolving around the bigger sellers for Marvel in the mid to late 80s. It's wild hearing the reasons behind our childhood comic story confusions turning out to just being one or two persons' ego forcing a change based on spite. Keep up the good work.

In Priest's defense, Spider-Man Vs Wolverine is an outstanding book! (With a terrible title...) Oddly, teaming up these two served well to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of both, and seeing Spider-Man out of his element in a Cold War KGB thriller challenged the character in ways I don't feel many others have replicated. I had no idea the writer was so young! Thanks for the deep dive! I knew a lot of this, but also had a lot of inaccurate information. The full story is excessively complicated but equally fascinating. Imagine being 22 and getting asked to edit Spider-Man...

What a cool story! I actually kind of like the idea that Hobgoblin's identity is a mystery without answer. Sorta like Christopher Nolan's Joker - a force of nature villain. So often its the antagonist trying to unmask the hero but flip that concept on its head and you have something more interesting.

And when everyone is hobgoblin... Nobody is.

Lived through this whole thing and Hobby was my second favorite villain ever (Green Goblin was my fav) and I didn't realize the amount of chaos that was going on behind the scenes. Thanks for the whole story! And ya, up until Gang Wars - Spidey Wolverine .. Hobgoblin was amazing.

Hobgoblins bigest apparance after this is probably is in the 90's spider-man cartoon. Though he was only used because some people behind the secenes wanted to wait on using the green goblin and his toys were made. He still was a frequently used villian voiced well by mark hammil. Sadly hobgoblin hasn't been used much after that as he has a good visual design and is different enough from the green goblin to be his own character.

I enjoyed this history on the character a lot. As you alluded to, it's interesting what work came out of amazing Spider-Man immediately after this. Kraven's last hunt right after and then the Michellini and McFarlane run. I remember a recent McFarlane documentary, he said that everybody warned him to stay away from the Spider-Man office before he went and demanded to be made the artist. I suspect this drama was what they were referring to!

I loved Hobgoblin as a kid, but it was frustrating how a lot of his stories ended up anticlimactically...I liked Carrion, too. Hope the MCU can find room for both

I could actually see the McU doing a mystery Hobgoblin storyline someday soon. I would love to see it and it could restore Hobgoblin to the initial great character he was.

I have not watched your videos for a considerable amount of time yet the moment that I heard the music at the beginning I thought "this sounds just like comic tropes" that is some dedication to branding and I have to say it works to a charm

Man, mysteries in Spider-Man stories are always a mess except for Green Goblin, even today with Kindred it got convoluted, for other reasons. It's better to keep it simple and not drag it out and overstay its welcome

This video was enthralling. Getting this glimpse behind the scenes of this long running book, and seeing the pety motivations that surrounded Goblin's reveal was insane. Really makes you wonder what other stories got ruined because of feuds and egos...

Roger: “I’m Hobgoblin!” Ned: “I’m Hobgoblin!” Spider-Man: “So, whose the real Hobgoblin?” Both: “I am!”

To be entirely fair, a similar-but-not-identical brother body double *is* a pretty stupid idea. I think Fisk is the most interesting option. Fisk as the Rose makes you wonder why he's not just openly working for his father in a better role. As hobgoblin, it could be a coup.

Interesting stuff, makes me wonder what Hobgoblin stories could of been told if it weren't for the behind the scenes drama interfering. Honestly though I never have read through his comic book appearances, just absolutely loved him in the 90's animated Spiderman series, his look, his attitude and with exact same voice as Joker from the Batman animated series, thank you Mark Hamill 😂👍

Wow. Such a good episode. Hobgoblin was definitely my favourite Spidey villain growing up. That cover with Spidey holding his mask out of the water… burned into my brain.

ah yes the old Christmas story: The Grinch that ruined the Hobgoblin

i'm not nearly old enough to have experienced the hobgoblin saga when it came out, however in my childhood i used to buy old comics from the used bookstore, the mystery of the hobgoblin really intrigued me and he actually used to be my favorite villain at that time, too bad it fell flat on its face, i barely think about hobgoblin when i read spider-man comics nowadays

It’s always a good day when I see a Comic Tropes upload

Hobgoblin was always my favorite Spiderman villain. The covers where he's just an orange hood with glowing eyes are simply iconic

I remember reading these issues and how frustrated I was with the reveal and death of the Hobgoblin. I boycotted the titled and wrote a scathing letter to the editors. Until the Rami Spiderman film came out I never picked up another spiderman title.

These deep dives are a thing of beauty. So much information is so clearly organised and explained.

I always liked him more than Green Goblin. I thought he just looked cooler.

My only experience with Hobgoblin is through encylopedias and books condensing Marvel history rather than the real issues, so I always thought it weird that there were so many fake Hobgoblins and that his true identity seemed kinda convoluted. I always thought that was done on purpose, but now I know the truth of the matter and my opinion of Hobgoblin is improved for it.

I started reading Spider Man midway through this story, I remember being intrigued by the mystery, and baffled by the reveal. I loved using the Hobgonlin in the Marvel Superhero RPG by TSR and giving him a new identity. Chris have you even considered doing an episode on the rpg?

I prefer the Kingsley/Stern version and I think he could've been a major player (what Norman Osborn has become) if Stern was allowed to add layers to Kingsley and reveal him. Other than Ned Leeds reveal, I still enjoyed Macendale and his failed attempts to live up the mantle, including selling his soul. I am surprised you didn't mention the animated series version. Slott did attempt to return him to his Stern roots.

I think Roger Stern is a great comicbook writer. His work on Amazing Spider-Man and The Avengers are some of my favorite comics. I’m glad Roger Stern got to tell the story of the Hobgoblin’s true identity in the Hobgoblin Lives miniseries in the 90s.

Ah, this is just great. I still have #245, #250, #251, and the issues that featured The Rose and Jack O'lantern in an ole box of comics from that era. Literally remember scribbling Spidey v. Hobby action doodles before school while Gran pestered about me getting around to reading the copy of Jaws she bought at Zellers. The memories! Oh, the memories!

I was really into those comics at the time and I thought it was terribly disappointing that the Hobgoblin was somebody who had already been killed before his identity was revealed, and even more disappointing that this incredibly competent and powerful supervillain had been taken down by some common mooks, and most disappointing of all was that the Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds of all people. It just made no sense.

The Hobgoblin idea could be given justice in Spider-Man 4 with Ned reverse-engineering the leftover tech from Defoe's Green Goblin, Roderick designing the suit, introducing characters like Harry Osborn to mislead the audience and the actual Hobgoblin being a surprise character like Liz Toomes, for example, exacting revenge on Spider-Man for putting her dad in jail.

Roger Stern was great. His run on The Avengers in the 80s was so memorable.

Never heard of this channel before, but I'm a huge Spider-man fan and definitely appreciate learning about the behind the scenes drama that led to such a promising character being let down by a lackluster reveal that came out of nowhere. You've earned a subscriber today.

I pray the Hobgoblin gets more respect in the mainstream. I've grown a greater appreciation for the more underrated, lesser utilized characters in comics, and Hobgoblin is definitely in there. People see him as the poor man's Green Goblin, but as you said, he's far different from him in spite of the similar theme. He's the mobster, and a crime boss, and I hope that gets taken advantage of in later stories to show why he has the capacity to be a top tier Spider-Man villain in people's eyes.

Possible Christmas drinking game: take a sip every time Chris says 'hobgoblin.'

I got all these issues via mail subscription. Yes, I’m old. 😀 Hard to exaggerate how hot the hobgoblin was, and how awful the identity reveal was.

Roderick Kingsley is among my favorite Spiderman Villains and story arcs. Took almost two decades to unmask him. And that original Romita Jr run with the BattleVan which was immediately just before he got the Symbiotic Costume. Muah! Chef’s Kiss!

A really good overview of one of the most tumultuous times behind the scenes. I hope someday we get more behind the scenes details on more recent controversial storylines such as One More Day and the recent ending of Nick Spencer's run.

My introduction to Hobgoblin was the 90s animated series, Hobgoblin always seemed so deranged, I loved him.

The Hobgoblins identity should've never been reviled. It should still be a mystery to this day.

So happy RU-vid decided to recommend this video to me! I've been binge watching your comic book videos the past few days and it's been so awesome. Thank you for the great content!

this is what I love about this channel. really digs into "behind the bullpen" aspects of these stories.

Just saw Spider-Man: No Way Home and was feeling nostalgic for the iconic Green Goblin, so it was really cool to learn about Hobgoblin through this, never knew about their backstory!! So complicated lol

this is so similar to Nick Spencer's run. he also wanted to move his story faster but was stopped by editors trying to impose rules on him

Thank you for making this, my first comic I bought was the Ned Leeds reveal Amazing 289 and bought all the prior comics with Hobgoblin and followed him through the Jason Macendale era. This video helped answer a lot of questions I had as a kid growing up reading issues with Hobgoglin.

Probably the best video of yours I have seen, and that isn’t intended as a back-handed compliment. You brought a really interesting story to life.

I was also checking up on the Hobgoblin backstory after seein S:NWH this weekend, as the jokes about Ned and turning evil triggered my memory of his comic book counterpart. I found the Owsley-Priest blog post and it was a fascinating read. Even if you can't trust everything he writes (and he says himself he is writing from his perspective) it is a very open and honest story about being put into a manager position too young and at too dysfunctional a company. He was indeed set up to fail and I can undertand he lashed out, even if it was self-destructive. It makes me angry that they put him through that and that it soured his love of comics. Hobgoblin is certainly a cursed character.

I have a question?? Where the hell was Editor-in-chief Jim Shooter in all this?? creators complained the he ran a tight ship creatively during those years.

WOW, I had no idea there was all this in-fighting within the company. Tropes, this is why I am a SUBSCRIBER! You are a real COMIC-HISTORIAN and your content is very engaging! I was so enthralled and fascinated with your story-telling combined with documented commentary between editor and writer.

Just discovered your channel and I love your videos, you clearly put a lot of work into the history of comics and it shows! I especially love that you talk about the good, the, bad and the ugly. Thanks for the excellent content!

It’s funny how controversial Goblin mysteries end up being off the page. While it’s now been somewhat debunked, for the longest time we believed Green Goblin’s secret led to Ditko leaving Marvel. Hobgoblin caused several problems as we see. The more recent “Sins Past”, while not nearly as revered as those two, was definitely controversial and ill-received.

Hobgoblin was always one of my favorite villains, he was just such an interesting character with a cool design and i loved all his gadgets.

Chris- best one yet! I remember reading these stories and appreciate getting the “behind the scenes “ info!

Coming back to this channel after a year away and am blewn away by; that amazing new animated intro, it so fluid and the shots are dynamic you must have paid a small fortune to get it made! The production quality of the video, audio, and the editing has glowed up too! The new set is great, your present to the camera better than ever, and you look great! We'll done to you Chris, this was amazing to see, it made me so happy!

I was in my mid and late teens when this character was introduced. The art work for him was always strong and bold. Many people have tattoos of various heros and villains, one of my buddies has a Hulk one. I have an idea for a Hobgoblin tattoo design.

Hobgoblin was the first Spiderman villain I ever saw, so he'll always be one of my favourites.

Great summary! Thanks for such a compelling telling of the characters history and the behind the scenes drama as well. Have a wonderful Christmas!

Thanks for an awesome video! I nearly skipped it but luckily watched it through since it made soooo much more sense into my own era of Spider-Man and Hobgoblin, who was my absolute favorite villain as a child.

I was just old enough to read this story line in its entirety. I was only 3 in 1981 but I can remember buying Amazing #238 (I remember using the tattoo packed in the book) . It was a blast reading these as they came out but even as a young reader I thought the Ned Leeds reveal fell flat. (I read the reveal in issue #289) I only was able to buy on newsstands so it took a while to get my hands on Spider-Man vs Wolverine and that book was so good and would have been excellent as a stand alone story except for the Ned Leeds part that was jammed in there. This explains so much.

Great video man, very informative. I never truly did understand this character, and now I see why.

Back in the mid-90s, I wrote and drew a little feature for Wizard magazine, the monthly Superhero Calendar. In it, different points in comics history were commemorated or parodied as having taken place in such-and-such a year on the month featured on the calendar. The cartoon about the reveal of Roderick Kingsley as the Hobgoblin showed Kingsley unmasked with Spidey walking away in disbelief, saying, "Hunh-uh! Nope! I don't buy it!" I could only envision Roderick Kingsley as the spoiled and furtive fashion designer I remembered from Spectacular Spider-man. I was never able to see him as the Hobgoblin, even after that final unmasking.

Wonderfully done vid Chris! I truly hope you have a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

I love your videos, Chris. This was a wonderful deep dive into Hobgoblin and Marvel behind the scene. ...But PLEASE adjust the focus of your camera. Your last two videos you've been slightly out of focus and slightly distracting. Anyway, amazing stuff as always. My gf and I are avid watchers. ❤

Despite the focus issues on this video and the last, the lighting setup on this video and the last is the best you've had. If you keep this lighting, fix the focus and stick with a shallow depth of field your next video could look really slick! I've loved your work for years, thanks for the videos!

Merry Christmas! I began collecting monthly with ASM #251, then 250. I had great fun, collecting the 1983 issues. I can attest you could feel something lost in the quality of the stores afterwards- kind of a lesson in dashed expectations in something you still want to love. Good point about the recurrent terrific art! For a couple of years in that golden age of reading, Hobby was my favorite villain all the same. No wonder they opted to extend the mystery so long.I was long looking for a thrill like those first months, finally gifted with a modest allowance and Len's Kwik Shop in walking distance! Secret Wars, Marvel Team Up and the Master Planner arc in Tales. This was what triggered years of reading, brought me back many times, even, in 1995-7, my new (and still!) wife reading right beside me.

Thar Hobgoblin Lives mini series had astounding art by Ron Frenz! I remember picking up issue 1 and being rocked by how cool the art looked. Also worth mentioning, the following storyline “Goblins at the gate” was pretty good too!

Amazing timing, I just read Hobgoblin Lives last week and wasn’t aware of this drama for the original story. True, Ned Leeds was never a good fit for Hobgoblin. Maybe they should have gone with Fisk for Hobgoblin and Roderick for Rose, seems like a better fit for them.

Always a fan of the Spiderman reviews. Keep up the good work Chris!

I know you've been talking about getting a new camera to fix the blur issue, but I'm positive your current one can be fixed, whether professionally or by yourself. Some at home solutions include cleaning the lens, cleaning the internals, or compensating for whatever is out of alignment via manually focusing.

It really is sad to think that simply writing a villain for a beloved character like Spider-Man ended up causing so much chaos among people and their friendships. I know it is more common than most people think in these types of workplaces, but that is still pretty said to think about. I also love how in the writing column at 25:57, some of the answers were basically the written equivalent of troll comments. Seriously, one of them said it was going to be J. Jonah Jameson, which could have actually been real and I would love a multiversal Hobgoblin that was secretly Jameson, and the other said "Hobgoblin is obviously the mummified clone of Dr. Bart Hamilton's son's old girlfriend, who was killed by an allergic reaction to jet glider exhaust fumes." Someone should have gave that guy a medal for that Mat Pat level theory!

This was a great breakdown of the behind the scenes events that changed the Hobgoblin storyline. The only thing I would say is that at the beginning, when you were describing the state of affairs with the Amazing Spider-Man book not doing as well, the black suit had not yet been introduced. Otherwise, this was good stuff.

Something very dreamlike about the lack of focus in your camera lol. I like it!

Great job very well thought out. I think your work gets better every time. You have a gift for story telling.

I just discovered this channel this week and its easily one of my favorites on this site!

Great video! Perhaps in the future we could see one on Spider-Man's most infamous foe: Corn of Coblin.

I was getting Spidey from this era the true identity of the Hobgoblin was massive, discussion about it ran in the letters pages for years. And a shout out to Ron Frenz who was an amazing Spider-Man artist.

What a great presentation. It took me right back to my childhood - i remember all those covers. What strikes me the most, is the chaotic or incompetent contribution of Marvel editor Jim Owsley. Not only did he (maliciously?) screw up years of great comic writing, but he went on to create further chaos by naming himself 'Christopher Priest', the same name used by a well-established British science fiction writer (he wrote The Prestige, among many other great books and had been published since the 70s). So yet another creator's life had been made difficult by this careless individual.

I used to watch your videos way back in 2016. Its great to know that the channel got the popularity it deserved over time. Congrats, Chris.