most important rule of thumb when playing against ganon is that between the start to the end of the match it is GAURENTEED there will be one randy, completely fuckin out of the ass down b waiting to be whipped out at any moment. I dedicate the entire match to waiting for it, I will not be clowned. not today, good sir.
Just wanted to say that PM Ganon is the most fun I’ve ever had with a Smash character, all they had to do was give him a floating mechanic to feel satisfying to control. Bless PM
really wish they'd let you buffer float out of down-B tho. it seems his best recovery sequence is down-B -> float -> jump -> up-B, but as far as I can tell the optimal float input is frame-perfect since pressing it too early will eat the float input and pressing it late will cause you to fall longer after the down-B. and you can't mash it out either cuz then he'll just do the reflect. that one issue always bothers the hell out of me whenever I play him.
I played Ganon over like 7 years and I feel this video summarizes the character perfectly who cares about results or viability, dealing mental damage with style is eternal
"How Good is Ganon actually?" Does this mean we're gonna get some False Swipe Gaming style vids about how good smash characters were through the series?
@@sheridan5175 They were pretty cool to watch as well. Sad (but that's just like the competitive history of each types that died like 3 years ago after a single video)
I was just wondering why Ganondorf is in the very middle of the tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters. My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the wavedash, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the waveland. Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages. If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B). Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then. Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity. The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters. I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Punch. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Ganondorf another shot and tell me what you thnk. Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Ganon is better than Fox.' I said, essentially: 'Ganon seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Fox. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Ganondorf. Please give Ganondorf a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!
2 thing come to mine that i want to say. 1. is this a copypasta? 2. if no, was this talking about Melee ganon or PM/P+ ganon, since both are mentioned in this video?
This video was great, I love how it deconstructs the nuances of the character's design in an accessible way without forgoing the depth needed to be able to actually play the character competently. There was one bit that seemed off to me though - correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason Ganon is able to waveland out of bair in PM but not melee is because PM allows you to airdodge out of IASA frames, not because of an extra frame of airtime?
The question of “can you make a heavy character balanced without fundamanetally break them” isn’t really much of a question. Rivals of aether has 4 heavies and you can argue that 2 of them are “fundamentally broken” but the other 2 especially kragg are interesting and balanced.
Kragg’s like a heavy projectile character with a good recovery Snak girl has a meter management gimmick that has a unique combo game Fuck silvannos Polar bear has ice and shit to act as armor and a movement tool
Elli isn't really a heavyweight, she has terrible survivability and good mobility, she is definitely balanced well though. I think the main thing that makes kragg work is being faster and having fast and disjointed options that beat basically everything
@@mattzr1550 objectively elli is a heavyweight. She has .9 knockback adjustment which is the Same as Kragg and etalus. She feels lighter because her fall acceleration is lower making her die sooner off the top then shovel knight. This is offset by her air friction making her the heaviest character in the game off the sides.
@@captainmega6310 Not really. Maybe you could argue that from a design standpoint, but from a balance standpoint Kragg is better than Sylvanos. Character power in rivals is also kind of a meme because every character is so close.
I like these types of analysis videos, the characters that I’m most interested in knowing about are Zelda and Game and Watch going from melee to pm. I’d play the game everyday if it got rollback but I can’t imagine how much harder it would be than slippi melee. Great video June! Love to see more of these in the future.
amazing vid. just wanna mention, ganons new uptilt is actually a crazy useful move! its one of his fastest grounded options and can break cc and kill or setup edgeguards very early. its a good option out of cc too. its possible but difficult to sdi out of getting hit by the second hit, the reelback on it can dodge a lot of attacks that would have hit a standing ganon, and it covers in front and behind him.
Would absolutely love to see more of these. Not super familiar with PM and seeing the design decisions they made and how it compares to Melee is a real treat.
This entire video is fucking awesome. Also to me it seems like just the addition of a peach float as neutral b would do a lot for melee gannon because it creates mixups in mixups that make it harder for anyone to read. Goddamn it I love melee Gannon.
Your channel is really cool. Ganon has always been one of my prefer characters to watch and play. As u said, he might have some huges weaknesses, but it feels so good when it all connects with the reads and the methodical spacing and pressure.
Thanks for making this man. I mained Ganon in PM 3.6 and it got me my first ever spot in a PR in my state. Now everyone plays Ganon and I dont feel as unique anymore tho.
17:58 Why is that clip there? I don't understand the relevance to the video besides having a Ganon lol Really cool series so far. Nice to see PM continuing to get high quality content.
some captions feed back!! its generally best to try and make both lines of a captions similar width (can be done with a shift enter input in the youtube studio editor), whie also trying to maintains a similar width as the rest of the captions, It's also very goo to try and avoid making a single line or caption too long, as it can be overwhelming to read and its generally worth displaying a new set of captions or moving some text to a new line if it means the viewer will be able to read them more comfortably, , provided it makes sense and with respect to the previous point. some general rules for doing that, is to avoid using conjunction words like [and, for, or] at the end of a line or caption, and keep things like names and titles and related concepts on the same line as best as possible (less important than the first point but improves flow as well), and try to not end a sentence in the middle of a line unless its very short and never ever go over three lines unless the third provides additional infomation beyond just the sentence or something
Been away from Smash awhile but I really miss Melee Ganondorf, he's so much fun to play as. Also had to replay 5x that reverse wavedash into double uair and still making it back :o
The tierlist will make his appearances rarer but nothing triumphs over the DISRESPECT of the KING OF EVIL! Thank you so much Junebug it’s an honor and a pleasure to watch you, and thanks for captions
Great video! Would have wanted tips on what to do in neutral as a floaty. It seems like the advice was "be faster than ganon" but Peach is a slow girl on the ground and floating into eating his arials makes me sad
Man have there been some great Ganon/Dorf themes in Zelda. OOT (Cutscene/organ Dorf, Gannondorf, and Final-form Ganon), Twilight Princess (all 4 phases but especially the finale. 2nd phase where you fight him as a wolf is very unique and primal, it's perfect for a beast vs beast fight), OMG and Wind Waker... Not to mention the other 1/2 of Zelda games who have Majora, Veran, Zant, Ghiriham ETC as their main real villain, who all have their own kickass themes. Like Giriham omg it's almost melodramatic and silly, but there's just enough theat to give you the heebie jeebies. But in BotW all we get is NOISE. And for Zelda Villian music we get Molgera's theme, and Molgera was an early obstacle little narrative meaning, unlike the giant bird... I think a few "standard" boss tracks from misc. games... and Ganon's BotW theme, which is always played when fighting the OOT version of him. And I love BotW, but ganon's "theme" in it (which only plays when you're fighting him because the entire game he's just chillin, waiting for you to farm hearts and items and 1000 baked apples. He's not wrecking your shit or deliberately murdering anyone. All the champions and Zelda are all still alive in some form, good work idiot. Non-threat waiting to get slaughtered) sucks. It sucks, really listen to it and compare to any other Ganon/dorf theme. it has no nuance, it's not sinister, it's not eerie, it's not calcuted. it's just noise. DUN DUNNNN DUNN DUNNN DUNNNNNNN. Oh and he's fun in melee and even ult, you don't need to land many hits to KO.
I Love that despite the years, melee has remained the titan that it is, with a big community and tons of content still to be learned about the game. My favorite game of all time
On P+ Ganon not being able to float cancel, that's only half true. He can float on his first airborne frame then aerial ~4 frames later iirc, which has the consequence of delaying the hitbox by 5 frames, but allowing him to get back to the ground faster than normal. It was a long time ago that I looked at it, but I know for sure you can nair with the earliest timing and get the hitbox still. It's nowhere near as fast as Peach's because of the delay, but it does work. Edit: Did some testing, you're actionable out of float on frame 4 and you can get every aerial except bair with the earliest timing. You can't do bair because your stick has to be neutral on the frame you start the float, and pressing the stick backwards within 4 frames of that will cause you to b-reverse before the aerial comes out, giving you fair instead. As a result, the earliest you can input bair is frame 5 of float. Also note that whether you shorthop or fullhop into the float affects your height quite a lot. Generally you can get back to the ground faster from a shorthop, but that's sometimes at the expense of getting a hitbox out (eg. short hop float cancel fast fall n-air only gets you the first hitbox, while the full hop version gets you both).
8:11 Why do I have the sudden urge to subscribe to Junebug and turn on notifications? Also, do you plan on doing videos on how the Brawl newcomers were changed to better fit into a Melee-like environment?
