Denethor may have fallen to despair eventually, but even when he finally did, switching sides and aiding Sauron never seemed to cross his mind. That alone puts him head and shoulders above Saruman, one of Middle Earth's most powerful Maiar. The only other human able to look through the Palantir and face down Sauron without being dominated or corrupted (if I'm remembering correctly) is ARAGORN, and Denethor had been using it for far longer. It is hard to blame an old man who has resisted darkness for so long for finally losing the will to continue, even if that man is flawed.
Yes, this video is so necessary - Denethor was a tragic figure who sacrficed his happiness, his son, even his own sanity just to stick it to Sauron. It's 100% clear in the books his hostility toward Gandalf and Aragorn is they show up to confront Mordor when Denethor is like, "I've been doing that for 50+ yrs! Where have YOU been?"
@@MsAlliwannadoisdance Denethor had the army he had the stronghold Denethor was going to fight!! fight ! He was not going to just give it to a king in the middle of mordors assault I dont blame him.
Great comment. I am right there with you. The difference between Denethor and Aragorn was that Aragorn had a claim to the Palantir but Denethor did not. Even then, Aragorn said it was a pretty tough battle of wills. Narsil reforged kind of rattled Sauron as well so he was backed up a bit.
In my humble opinion, Denethor is the most tragic character in the LOTR. He truly wanted to do his duty to the people of Gondor, but he was not up for taking on Sauron. In all fairness, neither was anyone else. To expect Denethor to succeed against Sauron is not fair. He was a good man who was just flat out overmatched.
Let me supplement your comment by saying this: Denethor was way more noble & mighty in the books. Not to mention he contended wills with Sauron for decades nonstop and ontop of that even now he was never broken nor could Sauron alter what Denethor would see in the palantir even then he couldn’t control what Denethor had control of which was how he chose to interpret the visions given to him. Using it all to Gondor’s advantage! ❤ he also lit the beacons and got the women and children far away from the city longer ahead of time. So the movie butchered him as well as faramir but they didn’t butcher faramir as badly thankfully. He could have been shown to give Pippen his newest order to light the beacons so then it wouldn’t change the scene much at all as presented! The story here is Faramir’s birth ended up killing his mother Finduilas which was a Numenorean woman of the Faithful which her ancestors survived the Kataklysm of Númenor by the way! He was hurt deeply by her death. But also Aragorn when he went by the name gifted to him as Thorongil Denethor’s father basically overshadowing him from his own father so he is as psychology goes: treated Boromir the same way his father treated Aragorn/Thorongil. Note that Boromir and Faramir are half Númenorean which is a big thing as far as the legendarium goes! Denethor actually did many things the movie shows him not doing or neglecting. He was VERY competent and mighty in many craft and (even a lore-master to a degree). He had quite alot of mental and “magical” might which is why he could contend with Sauron too without being harmed in there process in any way!
Incidentally, that's almost exactly what Boromir says about him in Fellowship of the Ring. That his father is a good and noble man, but his people are losing hope of victory because they are so outmatched. It sets up an expectation for audiences that Denethor and Boromir are not bad people, but are simply struggling against terrible odds.
@@Makkaru112 They're not half Numenorian. Both their parents were of Numenorian heritage. but its actually not that much of a big deal (esp if you know the history of Gondor) unless its royal Numenorian heritage.
@@englishlady9797 Finduilas is the full fledged Númenorean. But yes. Denethor had great heritage too. There’s a reason faramir hd all those dreams over and over his whole life.❤️❤️❤️
@@englishlady9797 ❤️Love the adding to the discussion. Truly. We all together form the whole puzzle together and then from that reveals even more thing to discuss and even have fun with. The Tolkien jokes and memes are hilarious now and only get better with time. It’s a great community for sure. ❤️
I can live with Jackson's portrayal of Denethor in LoTR as a necessity for those who had not read the books. It works. But, I hate the way that they twisted Faramir, especially the beating of Sméagol I get why they did it, but I usually skip that part in re-watching the films since it is pretty dark and far from the character in the book who was always one of my favorite characters.
I just rewatched TT last night, and what bothered me most was Faramir roughing up Smeagol at the end, when he's sending Frodo and Sam on their way. I get that all of the mistreatment Smeagol receives is meant to lay the groundwork for his decision to betray Frodo and Sam. But it just feels excessive and gross, especially given that Faramir is supposed to have had a change of heart by this point.
I'm not sure this is on topic, but I never liked the actor who played Aragorn in the movies. He was butt ugly and a freak. Didn't like Cate Blanchett as Galadriel either. A great actress, but she always looked out of it. And after what Jackson did to The Hobbit, I won't be watching anything more from him - what an a**hole
It's also important to say that book Denethor is a very good strategist. For exemple : when Pippin visits Minas Tirith, he discovers that all the civilians have been evacuated of the city, except for a few messenger boys and for the healers in the Houses of Healing. In the movie, the numerous civilians that have stayed in the City hinder the soldiers who defend the place.
The mistake they made in the movies was not showing him using the Palantir, in the movies he just seems insane for seemingly no reason, if they showed him using the Plantir it would actually have made more sense on why he acts the way he does.
I've never viewed nor heard anyone else say that Denethor was a "villian" in the movies. I always felt he was a complex character with battling emotions and perspectives, a realist and a pragmatist who made mistakes and lost hope.
That was the same for me. He was the one who fell into the despair when theodin rose out of his. Not an outright villain in the movie but a man who believes that the change that aragorn would bring would lead the Kingdom to ruin. He had faith in his line and his vision, which didn't make him a comic book villain since he did still stand against the evil of their day... I read the lord of the rings around the time the fellowship was put into theaters, and read them a second time around the release of the two towers so the book was not all forgotten when i saw return of the king but was not completely fresh in my mind then. I really thought they did a serviceable job on his character, as i thought he was meant to show a contrast to Rohan and that Aragorn was the correct path for Gondor... I did not read unfinished tales or anything like that either so all i had to go off of was what was presented in the lord of the rings book.
Right, whoever Sauron could not corrupt he would daunt - Denethor simply fell into despair at what Sauron showed him - at the end of a bitter, losing lifelong battle, Denethor finally gave up.
Indeed, I completely disagree with the critique presented in this video of the portrayal of Denethor in the movies... I don't think anyone thought he was a villain, but a broken man after years of mental poison from Sauron... Did the fact that he was once great and that it was a mighty feat that he lasted as long as he did come up in the movies? No, but did it get fully fleshed out in the books themselves (not the appendices or Tolkien's further writing)? I don't think so, and definitely not to the extend represented in this video. Can we then blame the movies for providing a complete background to the character? No, they can't provide a full background on every single character in the movie, then the movies would be 10 hours long each... The movies showed Denethor as he was at the time of Return of the King, not a villain, but a broken man in the depths of despair.
I hadnt read the books when I first saw the movie but he totally seemed like a villain to me. Not an agent of Sauron, but a character made for the audience to hate and one that actively works against achieving victory. Not allowing the beacons to be lit, being horrible to his son, sending Faramir and a company of desperately needed soldiers to certain death, pathetically telling his soldiers to flee when confronted by his inaction and finally trying to kill Faramir in his despair. His selfish desire to keep his rule is understandable and his madness through despair might be seen separately but the movie made every attempt to have you despise him and see the noble Aragorn as the better choice in every regard. A pragmatic yet capable ruler (as he is in the books) vs Aragorns virtuous but untested promise would've made for a more interesting character and some interesting discussion. We might see TEAM DENETHOR comments here. But instead, he's definately a secondary villain in the movie IMO. PS. Don't forget, the Palantir doesnt play a role in the movie so it doesnt feed his desperation based on what the movie tells you. He just sobs for Boromir while his realm is left unprotected and unprepared for the war.
Fëanor created the palantir and aren’t to be used lightly and that again shows Denethor’s power. Denethor was done dirty: He was way more noble & mighty in the books. Not to mention he contended wills with Sauron for decades nonstop and ontop of that even now he was never broken nor could Sauron alter what Denethor would see in the palantir even then he couldn’t control what Denethor had control of which was how he chose to interpret the visions given to him. Using it all to Gondor’s advantage! ❤ he also lit the beacons and got the women and children far away from the city longer ahead of time. So the movie butchered him as well as faramir but they didn’t butcher faramir as badly thankfully. He could have been shown to give Pippen his newest order to light the beacons so then it wouldn’t change the scene much at all as presented! The story here is Faramir’s birth ended up killing his mother Finduilas which was a Numenorean woman of the Faithful which her ancestors survived the Kataklysm of Númenor by the way! He was hurt deeply by her death. But also Aragorn when he went by the name gifted to him as Thorongil Denethor’s father basically overshadowing him from his own father so he is as psychology goes: treated Boromir the same way his father treated Aragorn/Thorongil. Note that Boromir and Faramir are half Númenorean which is a big thing as far as the legendarium goes! Denethor actually did many things the movie shows him not doing or neglecting. He was VERY competent and mighty in many craft and (even a lore-master to a degree). He had quite alot of mental and “magical” might which is why he could contend with Sauron too without being harmed in there process in any way!
There are allusions to Denethor's palantir in the movie, even though its not explicitly mentioned. It comes over in remarks like "he has foreseen" or "do you think the eyes if the white tower are blind"? Incidentally, in some of the commentaries, David Wenham who played Faramir mentioned it as well, so he clearly read the book and knew all about the context.
@@Makkaru112 A couple of nitpicks here. Numenorian blood isn't really that important: it depends on which bloodline it was from. Eowyn and Theoden also had Numenorian blood through Morwen, Theoden's mother, as did Denethor himself. Pretty much all Gondorian nobles had Numenorian blood. What made the difference was being a descendant of Elros. Aragorn was, but Denethor wasn't, which was why Aragorn had a longer lifespan but also slower aging. Second: Denethor's use of the Palantir and his gift of foresight are alluded to in the movies several times: he's said to have "foreseen" things, and is clearly shown to be a man teetering on the brink of insanity, which is consistent with the book depiction. Sauron was gradually driving him mad. Finally, a lot of his conflict with Faramir had to do with the fact that Faramir was looking foward to the return of the King and didn't want to rule himself. Boromir might well have harboured such ambitions.
the extended editions do a lot more credit for denethor and boromir, but still never explain that it took an incredibly strong will to use the palantir for so long w/o sauron dominating him, though eventually he did break when boromir died and he was shown a (false) vision of the destruction of gondor, both of which he loved more than anything
I think Sauron couldn't show false things. He showed him the carsairs of Umbar and the massive army still in Mordor. But I believe Sauron said he would do something terrible with his and Faramir's bodies, given his way of death.
@@ambience273 sauron could ONLY show false futures. that was his huge power over the palantiri. hence the fake corsair vision that didn't include aragorn & the one showing theoden arriving at gondor, but insinuating that he was attacking it
@@c.ladimore1237 “The Stones of Seeing do not lie and not even the Lord of Barad-dûr can make them do so. He can, maybe, by his will choose what things shall be seen by weaker minds, or cause them to mistake the meaning of what they see. Nonetheless it cannot be doubted that when Denethor saw great forces arrayed against him in Mordor, and more still being gathered, he saw that which truly is. The Return of the King - The Last Debate Sauron showed the ships, not who was sailing it.
Another thing, he thinks Sauron took the ring: “Comfort me not with wizards! … The fool’s hope has failed. The Enemy has found it and now his power waxes” (LOTR, p. 805). “The fool’s hope” is Gandalf ’s plan to destroy the Ring (see LOTR, p. 795), and the “it” that “the Enemy” has found must be the Ring. Once again, then, Denethor has seen something true in a palantír, and has drawn from it a wrong conclusion.
I think one of the many great beauties of Tolkien's works is how he created characters who were fallible, corrupted or who had commited bad deeds; but we do not feel they are fallible, corrupted or bad - we see that they are humans endeavouring their best in their struggle. We see ourselves.
@@TheMarcHicks Alqualondë anyone? Also: Denethor was done dirty: He was way more noble & mighty in the books. Not to mention he contended wills with Sauron for decades nonstop and ontop of that even now he was never broken nor could Sauron alter what Denethor would see in the palantir even then he couldn’t control what Denethor had control of which was how he chose to interpret the visions given to him. Using it all to Gondor’s advantage! ❤ he also lit the beacons and got the women and children far away from the city longer ahead of time. So the movie butchered him as well as faramir but they didn’t butcher faramir as badly thankfully. He could have been shown to give Pippen his newest order to light the beacons so then it wouldn’t change the scene much at all as presented! The story here is Faramir’s birth ended up killing his mother Finduilas which was a Numenorean woman of the Faithful which her ancestors survived the Kataklysm of Númenor by the way! He was hurt deeply by her death. But also Aragorn when he went by the name gifted to him as Thorongil Denethor’s father basically overshadowing him from his own father so he is as psychology goes: treated Boromir the same way his father treated Aragorn/Thorongil. Note that Boromir and Faramir are half Númenorean which is a big thing as far as the legendarium goes! Denethor actually did many things the movie shows him not doing or neglecting. He was VERY competent and mighty in many craft and (even a lore-master to a degree). He had quite alot of mental and “magical” might which is why he could contend with Sauron too without being harmed in there process in any way!
@@SamCork1 Thranduil was never bad. Never ever. Heck. The kindness of Greenwood elves was renowned. Even the captured Orcs were treated well and even respect.
@@TheMarcHicks Nope. I've never seen anybody argue that movie Denethor is a "villain", and Jackson did a great job with showing Boromir as a good, but flawed man, although he overcomes his flaw at the end and finds redemption. Rings of Power, by contrast, maks Galadriel into a monster. A homicidal maniac who threatens to torture prisoners and tries to cut her captive's throat, and also a thoroughly selfish figure who is willing to let the world burn if she can get her revenge. Yet we are supposed to see her as a "goodie" and a heroine. Rings of Power fans have a record for trying to discredit the movies to make the series look good.
That’s a fascinating distinction between the Numenorian fear of Death and Theoden’s army crying out and seeking Death on the fields of battle. Never noticed that before.
@@Makkaru112 Only the ones of royal line could do it. And it's clear from the Akallabêth that the Númenorians were afraid of death and envied the Elves for their immortality. It's even the main reason for their downfall.
@@Xerxes2005 they forgot what they could do and chose envy and fear! And oddly enough the elves and even the Valar started to envy the gift of men. To the halls of Eru ❤️ for the second song later on. Heck. Even Galadriel in the books promised in her foresight that she’d return to help Fangorn find Fimbrethil when Beleriand rose again from the sea” how beautiful is that? ❤️
It’s also cool because Eorl’s line is related to a group who also helped in the war of wrath etc. they chose to return to their homes and willingly and politely declined the blessing as it were and or left earlier to begin with and oddly they embraced the gift on men whole souled !! ❤️❤️
@@Makkaru112 They did not forget, they refused to do it. It's also not odd. The Elves know what will happen to them after their "deaths". After a time in the Halls of Mandos, they return in the world of the living, because they cannot escape the world. Men, on the other hand, do not know what fate lies ahead. All the Elves know is that after a short rest in the Halls of Mandos, they leave the world forever. The Elven emissary who was sent to Númenor even said that only Iluvatar could tell them what he plans for them. It is understandable that the Númenorians should fear death, even if their lifespan was far greater than other Men. Living 400 years is far longer than living 80 years old, but the difference is trivial compared to Elves who can live several thousands of years. The fact that you can choose to die when you are ready and without pain is poor consolation. Even Arwen understood at last: "I must indeed abide the Doom of Men whether I will or nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the Númenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Elves say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."
My main issue with Film-Denethor was leaving out the fact he had a Palantir, even in the extended edition. It was a pretty important plot point and it was never clear why it was left out of the film. Another quibble is that he refused to light the beacons in the film, but in the books, they had already been lit while Gandalf and Pippin rode to Minas Tirith. I realize this was to give Pippin something to do while in Minas Tirith, as the Beregond/Bergil sub-plot had been removed.
They had time to at least show that he was using the palantir. Just let him show the palantir in the pyre and Gandalf say something about Sauron being the great deceiver. We already had the scene with Pippin using it, would be easy to understand.
I would say both Denathors were appropriate to their mediums, though more could have been done to hint at his former greatness in the film, perhaps with mild glimpses of his former wisdom in fleeting moments, maybe even in direct conflict with his latter state with cognitive dissonance.
Yes, this right here. Even if it were only included in the extended version, I feel PJ could have fleshed his character out a bit more. I personally never saw Denethor II as a villian per se but as a once great leader fallen into grief and despair. Everyone has their own take on matters.
They could’ve just portrayed him as ruthless and calculating while still being a very capable leader. He should’ve had the defenses of Gondor prepared at least. They could drop hints that he was broken from Boromirs death, but still holding it together, only to complete fall apart after Faramir gets shot
I am one of those who watched the films before I had read the books. And when I eventually read the books I had the same reaction of surprise on how Denethor was drastically changed and not only him but also Boromir and Faramir. Denethor did in fact administered competently until he fell into despair. And I understood the reason he did not recognized Aragorn an heir to the throne because Aragorn came from the line of Isildur but Denethor's House served the line of Anarion
The movie part I dislike the most is Gandalf smacking Denethor on the head with his staff. Yes movie watchers cheer that on but it’s SO wrong. Gandalf would never do that to the Steward of Gondor. Denethor is a troubled but great man, he’s not Curly from the Three Stooges.
Theoden and Denethor absolutely! A theme I've examined myself a fair bit, but always a fun one to visit. Excellent work on this video (as always); however, I do feel it was John Noble's performance choices (rather than the script itself) that led to such a different presentation of the character. A phenomenal actor no doubt, but his delivery was almost exclusively characterised by anger and fear. A sorrowful delivery, instead of anger, would have been more accurate to the book (imagine Denethor wailing the line "Flee, flee for your lives!" instead of roaring) even if the background wasn't explicitly explained. The script does diverge from the book, but it was John Noble who chose to emphasize paranoia over despair. I'd also love to see a longer video examining the "living venn diagram" that is Denethor and his sons :) Just a thought
Is it weird I never thought of him as a villain in the movie? The defeated or failed hero is one of my favorite tropes. His purpose was not generally evil, but he was trying to convey how terrible and hopeless the situation was.
Knowing more of Denethors background actually helps me to appreciate his on screne depiction more. Whereas before i thought of him a vicious, now i can see his tragedy. I agree that the film version is different but i think it suits the story the films told and was indeed affected by time. I particularly love the extended scene he has with Boromir in Osgiliath where he's telling him about the council. It shows his desperation and informs his despair when Boromir is killed.
Yeah, but Peter Jackson stayed true to the tone and themes of Tolkien's story whereas the ROP did not. Peter Jackson made minor changes where ROP made huge changes. Don't even try to compare the two.
Gondor was portrayed in such a negative light in the movies and it is part of why I can't stand to look at how they massacred the Gondorian Characters in the movies. Denethor wasn't meant to be the madman the movies portrayed him as, but a wise ruler who could've been greater had he not been born in a time where the apocalypse was imminent. The tragedy is his gradual fall by way of desperation and having everyone he loves and cares for taken from him.
It's like they had to emphasise the difference between current Gondor and Numenor or the audience wouldn't understand the fall from grace of men. Which is fine because the films were always intended to be mainstream, where more dedicated fans will always read the original and understand the true meaning.
@@jamesw3413 All that tells me is that Jackson doesn't trust his own audience. Tolkein managed to convey all of that to his readers with just a few lines of dialogue.
Gondor in the movies feels reminiscent of the Byzantine Empire, a great civilization that had fallen a long way since the days of Justinian (Isildur) and was talking the full force of the invention of the ottoman empire (mordor)
Thanks for doing this video. I feel like Denethor's misrepresentation in the Jackson films was the biggest misstep of the Trilogy. Had his book version made the screen I feel like it would have added a lot of impact to his eventual fall to despair and madness if we'd gotten to see him be competent and ironclad as he was in the lore. His relationship with Pippin also is much more fatherly in the books rather than weirdly creepy in the films, which again would have made his fall and death all the more potent for Pippin's sorrow when they reach the Black Gates. "Well, now at least I understand poor old Denethor a bit more." Pippin as the hordes of Mordor close in
I agree completely. I think it simply came down to how important was it to focus on a new character vs resolving what was set up in previous films. It's hard to add more to the pile in a third film that has lots to resolve already.
@@shaggycan I'm not sure that was the case, as Denethor has a lot of scenes. Initially in the deleted scenes(it's in the Extended Editions) of Two Towers Denethor is still cold to Faramir, but he's presented as competent and aware of Sauron's aims, much more like in the books. They gave Denethor a lot of screen time in Return of the King, but turned his character into a caricature, so something changed between films, possibly because they cut that scene in Two Towers for the theatrical release like they did with Saruman's death, so it's possible they redid his character to be completely different for the reasons you suggest, but it was a very poor choice since he still got so much screen time.
@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 I think this video is honestly just a RIngs of Power fan trying to discredit the movies. They do that a lot. It was kind of a giveaway when he said "Denethor is played as a villain": which he isn't.
@@englishlady9797 Denethor in the films is played as an antagonist. He outright sabotages his own war effort, orders suicidal attacks and then decides to tell the entire city to stop fighting and run for their lives. I despise RoP as a poorly written farce myself, but there's no denying that Denethor was turned into a moronic caricature in Jackson's Return of the King.
@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 His ordering of a suicidal attack is meant to hark back to things that happened in WW1, with commanders ordering young men to go "over the top" in hopeless missions. At least that's my take. He tells his men to stop fighting because that point, he's lost it. He's had a complete mental breakdown in the middle of a battle There's a difference between being conciously antagonistic and passively harmful though mental incapacity. Denethor is the latter.
Would definitely be interesting, to watch a comparison video of Théoden and Denethor! Looking at fan fiction, the portrayal of Denethor often seems rather exaggerated, and thus rather escalating the portrayal of PJ. Thank you for the very nuanced look on that character!
I’ll say again: Denethor was done dirty: He was way more noble & mighty in the books. Not to mention he contended wills with Sauron for decades nonstop and ontop of that even now he was never broken nor could Sauron alter what Denethor would see in the palantir even then he couldn’t control what Denethor had control of which was how he chose to interpret the visions given to him. Using it all to Gondor’s advantage! ❤ he also lit the beacons and got the women and children far away from the city longer ahead of time. So the movie butchered him as well as faramir but they didn’t butcher faramir as badly thankfully. He could have been shown to give Pippen his newest order to light the beacons so then it wouldn’t change the scene much at all as presented! The story here is Faramir’s birth ended up killing his mother Finduilas which was a Numenorean woman of the Faithful which her ancestors survived the Kataklysm of Númenor by the way! He was hurt deeply by her death. But also Aragorn when he went by the name gifted to him as Thorongil Denethor’s father basically overshadowing him from his own father so he is as psychology goes: treated Boromir the same way his father treated Aragorn/Thorongil. Note that Boromir and Faramir are half Númenorean which is a big thing as far as the legendarium goes! Denethor actually did many things the movie shows him not doing or neglecting. He was VERY competent and mighty in many craft and (even a lore-master to a degree). He had quite alot of mental and “magical” might which is why he could contend with Sauron too without being harmed in there process in any way!
The man deserved far more credit than he was given. the reason the fellowship was able to focus on and subdue Saruman was because Denathor was regularly using the plantiri to discover Saurons plans and troop movements which he would relay to his commanders at the front to effectively keep the trapped and away from the majority of middle earth. not without flaw gondor was well outmatched as was Denathor himself. he is of numinorian blood and of similar age to Aragorn but the constant use of the plantiri to challenge Sauron aged him physically as well as mentally. to be perfectly honest to explain Denathor would almost require a movie of its own or at least another 2 hours on return of the king "not that i would complain about that" Yes he could have been portrayed more accurately he was a competent Steward in what was arguably the darkest time Gondor has ever faced yet he was not shown to be much more than paranoid and in despair in the film.
In a very small defense of Peter Jackson, it would be very hard, and time consuming to portray Denathor in the beautiful and intricate way that the book does. Though I would prefer it.
It really wouldn't have. Jackson wasted a huge chunk of screen time showing Faramir dragging Frodo to Osgiliath, & showing Pippin lighting the beacon in painstaking detail, & showing Arwen taking a journey to the Havens.....all stuff that wasn't even in the books. So, no, there was ample time for Jackson to depict Denethor properly, if he truly understood the character.
Denethor was done dirty: He was way more noble & mighty in the books. Not to mention he contended wills with Sauron for decades nonstop and ontop of that even now he was never broken nor could Sauron alter what Denethor would see in the palantir even then he couldn’t control what Denethor had control of which was how he chose to interpret the visions given to him. Using it all to Gondor’s advantage! ❤ he also lit the beacons and got the women and children far away from the city longer ahead of time. So the movie butchered him as well as faramir but they didn’t butcher faramir as badly thankfully. He could have been shown to give Pippen his newest order to light the beacons so then it wouldn’t change the scene much at all as presented! The story here is Faramir’s birth ended up killing his mother Finduilas which was a Numenorean woman of the Faithful which her ancestors survived the Kataklysm of Númenor by the way! He was hurt deeply by her death. But also Aragorn when he went by the name gifted to him as Thorongil Denethor’s father basically overshadowing him from his own father so he is as psychology goes: treated Boromir the same way his father treated Aragorn/Thorongil. Note that Boromir and Faramir are half Númenorean which is a big thing as far as the legendarium goes! Denethor actually did many things the movie shows him not doing or neglecting. He was VERY competent and mighty in many craft and (even a lore-master to a degree). He had quite alot of mental and “magical” might which is why he could contend with Sauron too without being harmed in there process in any way!
It would have been just a little extra work to include some short visuals of Denethor in his prime as an accompaniment to pre-existing expository scenes such as at the Council of Elrond. Just to endear him to the audience before his formal first appearance, y'know? I hope that at least was fought for within the studio room.
Yes. However, the movie still could have portrayed Denethor more like he was in the book. The BBC radio play still manage to portray Denethor like he was in the book even though they had to cut a lot out because of time. The radio play is about the same length as the theatrical edition of the film, though the radio play is a tad shorter. And the radio play is a good deal shorter than the extended edition of the movie. And I do understand that a radio drama is different than a movie. Nevertheless, I still think the BBC radio play is one of the many good examples of how the movie could have also portrayed Denethor like he was in the book.
In brief, I loved the Denethor of the books, man and ruler, a noble servant to Gondor, as much as I despised the Denethor of the movies. This lost opportunity is one of the big gripes I have with the movies, up there with the host of Prussian elves appearing at Helm's deep, and getting wasted and forgotten.
Thank you for addressing this!!! Denethor was one of the things that really bothered me in the movies! He was terribly represented and way too over-the-top!
I once had the opportunity to work with John Noble who played Denethor, on the set of Fringe and he was an absolute gentleman, polite and friendly to everyone and a perfect professional in every regard,. It was a true pleasure to work with him.
Movie Denethor was a caricature of the Denethor that Tolkien wrote, and he wasn't alone in that. Jackson & Co. changed so many of the characters in Tolkien's masterpiece so that they were almost completely different people than the ones we read about in the books. Just look at Frodo. In the books Frodo is a wise and courageous hobbit, and he is the true leader of the four of them. In the movie he is a useless welp for most of the story. Faramir is changed from a wise, noble, & kind Man of Westernesse to a thug that takes Frodo & Sam as prisoners to be turned over to his father to "show his quality" and then beats the truth out of Gollum. Book Faramir is nothing but helpful to Frodo & Sam, and he treats Gollum with kindness. Never does he attempt to take the One Ring -- even after Sam slips up and tells him about it -- nor does he ever even consider taking it back to his father. Isildur is turned from a wise & noble king to a corrupted near villain and a coward, which couldn't be farther from the way Tolkien wrote him. The Elrond we see in the books is "as kind as summer" and loves Aragorn as his own son whereas movie Elrond seemingly views Aragorn and men in general with utter contempt. His movie version is more Agent Smith than Elrond! The list goes on and on and on.... The truth is that I was a much bigger fan of the movies before I read the books and saw just how much Jackson & Co. changed so many of the key characters, and every time they changed them for the worse, every stinkin' time!
I thought the worst change was how Gimli and Aragorn were depicted at different times. Gimli causing an arrow from Legolas's to miss a warning shot and instead killing the sailor on the ship. Another time I thought Aragorn's slaying of the Mouth of Sauron went too far. I too thought Jackson & Co. changed many of the characters for the worse.
@pyropulse Yep, and he lopped off the Mouth of Sauron's head during what was supposed to be a peaceful parlay. Don't get me wrong. It was satisfying to watch, but honorable & kingly it was not. It's not something that Tolkien's Aragorn would have done. Of course, Tolkien's Aragorn didn't spend his life hiding from his duty to his people as the rightful High King of Gondor & Arnor.
@@futuresonex Rings of Power gave us full on genocidal Galadriel threatening to torture prisoners before attempting to cut a captive's throat, butchered Finrod, turns Elendil into a pussyhwhipped doormat who is demoted from the Lord of the Anduine to a "petty Lord" and Isildur into a cowardly sap. Its also very strongly implied Elendil is corrupt and has used his position to get his son into the navy. So for all you shills whinge about the movies to make the series look better, the same can be applied to your series.
What strikes me is that the moment of his downfall, having seen his son apparently die without blessing, is that he goes to the palentir and concludes that the ring has been taken by Sauron. He must have seen Frodo captured, Sauron taunting him presuming he has captured some mere spy, and confirming to him that the folly of sending the ring to mordor was just delivering it to Sauron. No wonder he had no hope, and the only glimmer tht Gandalf can show him, that the king, from the nrothern line of Isildur once rejected by the southern kingdom, had come, so that even if the impossible victory occurs, he must face the downgrading of his house to some upstart and change from the way things have been for thousands of years. It would be too much for almost anyone
Let's not forget his run, while on fire, all the way from the House of Stewards to the Citadel, passing by and through several checkpoints and gates on the way, and even passing the Houses of Healing, yet no one stopped him. But since no one dies falling off cliffs in these movies, he's still alive, burning, somewhere. 🤦🏻♀️
I never agreed with the way Denethor was portrayed in Jackson's movie. I agree with all you said. I will add that another thing I didn't like was that he was spiteful and foolish in his pride. In the book, Denethor orders himself the ignition of the warning beacons. They are already being lit when Gandalf rides to Gondor with Pippin. He also sends the Red Arrow to Théoden. He knows he needs all the help he can get, so he calls his allies from Rohan. He evacuates the civilians and asks for help from the different provinces of Gondor. Also, when he sends Faramir to Osgiliath, the ruined city is still in possession of Gondor. It is not a suicide mission, although he is hard with Faramir. He is a stern and haughty, but competent ruler. Denethor does not order everyone to flee the city when he sees Mordor's armies and does not get knocked out by Gandalf who takes command of the battle. It is only after the return of his injured son and after seeing the corsairs' black sails in the palantír that he loses his mind. I understand that Jackson wanted a threat closer to home. Still, I find the way he killed off Denethor completely ridiculous. How could he cross the entire Citadel and cast himself down while burning? You just need to add the Goofy Holler at this point... I think the way he dies in the book is far more dramatic and tragic: breaking the Steward's Rod on his knees, then lying down on the pyre, grasping the palantír in his hands. It was supposed to be a Greek tragedy, the fall of a great man. But Jackson never presented us Denethor as a great man.
As someone who hasn’t read the books and therefore didn’t have any preconceived notions of how his character is supposed to be like, it never came off to me that the movies were pushing him as a villain 🤷♂️
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
For those who want a portrayal of Denethor that is much closer to the book version and captures something of his tragic downfall from greatness to despair-induced madness, I recommend the 1981 BBC Radio adaptation of Lord of the Rings. Both Denethor and Faramir are quite well portrayed in it.
Believe it or not Denethor was actually better than his father, grandfather, and his older heirs in terms of military strength. He won back osgiliath and cair andros against the witch king when he was young which his older heirs weren't able to do so after many generations. Even sauron knew denethor was very strong he could even counter wrestle with saurons mind at times and predict his orcs movements. The movies portrayed denethor falsely he turned gondors army to the height of its power against the armies of mordor, which theoretically gave the forces of middle earth an advantage in its fight. Even tho he rejected the Kings Coronation and wanted the ring for himself he was still a major reason why Sauron and his armies fell.
Perhaps a comparison between Theoden, Denethor and Saruman might be instructive, since all of them succumbed to some extent to gradual influences of evil
I've mentioned this in the past, but do or have you guys ever considered uploading your videos audio to Spotify?! Myself and others I'd wager tend to listen to your videos in the background without even seeing the visuals. Could be another easy and enjoyable outlet for others. I would definitely appreciate it, love the work guys keep it up. Been a huge fan/follower since the previous channel
The porteayal in the film definitely did wrong by Denathor, he is so muhc more interesting and complex in the book. It wouldn't have taken much to make him more true to the book and thus a more tragic, rather than villanous or uncaring person.
Nope. I've never seen anybody argue that movie Denethor is a "villain", and Jackson did a great job with showing Boromir as a good, but flawed man, although he overcomes his flaw at the end and finds redemption. Also, Jackson was constrained by time. He had less than 3 hours to adapt books which are 400 pages long, so a lot had to be cut out. Rings of Power, by contrast, maks Galadriel into a monster. A homicidal maniac who threatens to torture prisoners and tries to cut her captive's throat, and also a thoroughly selfish figure who is willing to let the world burn if she can get her revenge. Yet we are supposed to see her as a "goodie" and a heroine. Rings of Power fans have a record for trying to discredit the movies to make the series look good. I think this is the case with this video, and especially with the comments section.
@@englishlady9797 In the book, Pippin thinks Denethor almost indistinguishable from Aragorn, other than he seems to bear a great sense of despair (almost hidden, but that he is coming to accept). This, to me, suggests a great and noble demeanor and bearing. A strong and valiant man who has faced off directly with Sauron (the greatest evil of the world) for years, and now 'understands' that he quite simply can not win. He is outmatched, he will fail in his duty, and his city (and civilazation) will die. And this realization is what makes him so bitter, that he will be the steward that sees it all end, despite everything he has strived to do. There are moments he shows great compassion to Pippin, who views the man with grief and sadness. Movie Denethor is sneering and sniveling, and Pippin seems to look upon him with disgust (which, I'd argue, was the reaction the viewers were supposed to feel). It's a huge contrast, and one that is unjust in my opinion. No other media (Rings of Power for example) plays into that opinion.
@@scoobysnacker1999 ...and I will repeat the scene in Fellowship of the Ring in which Boromir literally describes his father in just such terms- as a noble man but one whose rule is failing because their people are "losing hope". Those are his exact words. When we hear about Denethor in such terms so early on, it sets up an expectation for the audience, suggesting that this guy isn't so bad, he's just struggling and the same must be true for his father. We know something about what is going on with Denethor from his son before we even meet him: and Pippin in both book and movie idolized Boromir. He would hardly have entered Denethor's service if he hated the guy, he just could not believe what happened with him sending off Faramir to die like that. It was like Boromir all over again, who died in front of him. In the book, he even later names his son after Faramir. Rings of Power is set 1000s of years before Lord of the Rings, so don't try and let that show off the hook by saying it doesn't depict Denethor in a negative light. What Amazon have done to Isildur, Elendil, Gil-Galad and Galadriel so far is bad enough.
On Éomer: he actually started laughing and being defiant BEFORE knowing Aragorn was on the ships. This seems to tie in with Estel (Hope as in (blind) faith) over Andir (Hope as in looking at a situation and deciding it's probably fine).
As someone who has only ever seen the movies and listened to lore videos I always thought that Denethor would be more interesting if he was more of a failing ruler trying his best to fight Mordor than a straight villain, so it's good to feel somewhat vindicated. With that said, I do think that the book version of Denethor wouldn't have worked in the movies. RotK is already a very long movie, and the amount of time allotted to Denethor would not be enough, I think, to do the more complex version of him justice. In the end I think that movie Denethor still covers the necessary plot beats that his character needs to do for the overarching story (the feelings on his sons, the mistrust of Gandalf and Aragorn, the failure to hold back Sauron), and so it was a reasonable choice to follow the path they did given that they had to simplify him. I also think that movie Theoden already plays the role of a weary old king whose courage and willpower is slowly failing him. I mean the first time we meet him he literally looks inches from death's door. Having yet another weary old king (or steward) with courage and willpower slowly failing him would make the world feel less dynamic and interesting. Their portrayals may have come across as just a little too similar, and also kind of depressing to have both rulers so close to despair (and the latter giving into said despair and burning himself alive as a result). Having Denethor give in more to madness than to despair I think works better in that regard.
I loved Denethor in the movies. Although they chipped a lot of his Charakter, I think they nailed the quintessece quite good (In the extendet editions at least). The movie portraial of Denethor may look plain and quite blsck and white, but if one truely thinks about it, one can more than sympathise with him. Denethor always semmed to me like a mirror, what leaders of men normaly are, ore are becomming, when they are slowly declining in grief and hopelessness. The true contrast back to Theoden, who rose again from darkness and dispair and in the moments of hopelessness showed the true value of human currage and principle. Denethor is not a bad charakter, he is, like boromir, one of the most human charakters in the LotR. Charakters like Theoden are there to show us that it is in the darkest houres, when we must do what is right.
That's interesting....a whole video on Denethor without mentioning the fact that he had "fallen" to the desire for the Ring, and unlike Boromir, without seeing it or being in close proximity to it. And this in a man perfectly positioned to know what the Ring is and that it corrupts absolutely everyone....you're a little to keen to excuse Denethor's supreme hubris
The only remedy would have been to make the movies in a series of episodes with multiple seasons. Each character has left something on the table to be able to fit the books into 3 films. However, I still love and applaud the films as they capture in my mind the heart and spirit of the main story
Denethor *II* - The Ruling Steward. NOT Denethor, Leader of the Green-Elves. Denethor - House of Húrin, Of high Númenórean blood, and blessed with long life. However, Denethor swifly surpassed his prime and aged rapidly, and his appearance was that of a great wizard, looking older than Gandalf. This was caused by him using a palantír to spy on Sauron. Sauron was able to manipulate what he saw, showing him impossible odds. Overwhelmed and grief-stricken by what he saw and his depression great. When Borimir died, it was the tipping point, and soon after, he lost all hope. The apparent loss of Faramir and the continued use of the palantir drove him mad, and he burned himself alive. He died with the palantir clutched in his hands. He was 1 year older than Aragorn.
Denethor was more noble & mighty in the books. Not to mention he contended wills with Sauron for decades nonstop and ontop of that even now he was never broken nor could Sauron alter what Denethor would see in the palantir even then he couldn’t control what Denethor had control of which was how he chose to interpret the visions given to him. Using it all to Gondor’s advantage! ❤ he also lit the beacons and got the women and children far away from the city longer ahead of time. So the movie butchered him as well as faramir but they didn’t butcher faramir as badly thankfully. He could have been shown to give Pippen his newest order to light the beacons so then it wouldn’t change the scene much at all as presented! The story here is Faramir’s birth ended up killing his mother Finduilas which was a Numenorean woman of the Faithful which her ancestors survived the Kataklysm of Númenor by the way! He was hurt deeply by her death. But also Aragorn when he went by the name gifted to him as Thorongil Denethor’s father basically overshadowing him from his own father so he is as psychology goes: treated Boromir the same way his father treated Aragorn/Thorongil. Note that Boromir and Faramir are half Númenorean which is a big thing as far as the legendarium goes! Denethor actually did many things the movie shows him not doing or neglecting. He was VERY competent and mighty in many craft and (even a lore-master to a degree). He had quite alot of mental and “magical” might which is why he could contend with Sauron too without being harmed in there process in any way!
@Makkaru112 The visions were manipulated indeed. Take the black fleet, the Corsairs of Umbar. Sauron hid the finer details of the vision to make Denethor think that the approaching fleet was coming to assist the siege. This made him lose hope, and that Gondor was lost. What Sauron didn't let him see, is that the ships were captained by Aragorn. I never said that Sauron changed or showed false visions. He made them obscure. He would conceal parts of the version to manipulate him. Yes, Denethor was a great man. He never gave into Saurons will. When he killed himself, though. We are left to believe that Sauron finally got to him.
To me Denethor was a powerful aristocrat who did not want to relinquish his power to Aragorn, whom he did not know and did not trust to lead his people. Denethor also became addicted to being the chief ruler of Gondor and Sauron loved driving powerful rulers insane. Denethor's descent into madness reminded me of how Sauron mentally wore down the last king of Numennor, who made the suicidal voyage to invade the land of the Valar. The fact that Aragorn, the legit heir to the throne of Gondor, did not demand the throne from Denethor tells us about the complexity of the politics of Gondor and that Aragorn saw it as a Gordian knot that he could not unravel without igniting a civil war. Aragorn also did not want to start a civil war in Gondor with Sauron on the verge of invading the West. Aragorn had to earn the respect of the people of Gondor and he did so by helping defeat Sauron's armies on the field of battle. In the books, it was Faramir who introduced Aragorn to the people of Gondor and ceded the ruling authority from the Stewards to King Aragorn. Ceding the ruling authority to Aragorn is not what Denethor in both the books and movie wanted to do.
I remember learning from videos that Denethor was jealous of Aragorn, and at first I thought it was just arrogance; however, after seeing this video and learning that Ecthelion favored Aragorn over his own son, it seems more understandable why he would be a bit envious.
Honestly, as misrepresented as Movie Denethor was, I think it would have gone a long way if we saw a brief flashback sequence of his most recent "battles" with Sauron over the Palantir and how his original personality gradually eroded into insanity by the time of Fellowship. In essence, I believe he would have been received much better if he got the same treatment as Gollum.
Another fun video. You forgot to explain that eomer saw aragorns house insignia on the boats which I would assume denethor did not or did not understand what it was.
I never felt like Denethor was portrayed as a villain in the movies. Denethor was a flawed man just like everyone else. He had a deep love of his city his nation his people and both his son's. But as times grew more dangerous and the threat of Sauron to Gondor became more urgent he dabbled with the Palantir out of desperation. Sauron could not make the Palantir show false images but he could conceal parts of what was going that might have given Denethor hope. So Denethor only experienced despair from the knowledge he gained and eventually lost all hope and went mad. He was a good man driven to desperate acts who eventually lost the will to live.
"Few can deceive Denethor, and it is dangerous to try" has nothing to do with something as simplistic as Denethor holding grudges. It is a clear reference to that ability found in purer Númenorean lineage that also Faramir shares: the ability to read some of what is in men's minds. If you try deceiving him, he would simply know instantly, which would be dangerous.
Brilliant video as usual, though I cannot like it nor watch non-adsense if placed interrupting flow, whilst the opposite is true if placed at very front/back/both :0
One can’t always compare book to film. The depiction of Denethor by LOTR films always bothered me and gave me an opportunity to discuss the differences with those watching with me. But a film can’t exhibit a character in the three dimensions that is possible in the book. Sad, but that’s the way it is.
I don't think Denethor is much different in the movie than the books. It is only that we see in the movie Denethor after he had the battle of mind against Sauron via the Palantír. Just like the portrayal of Saruman, the movie does not take place in the "good-ish Denethor" years: Jealousy+Palantír (facing Sauron) changes a character. It would have been nice to see the progression of young Aragorn+Denethor to after he used Palantír in the movies.
The portrayal of Denethor, and of Faramir and his second charge, is among the 5-10 critiques I have towards the movies, and makes them good but not great. Served no purpose and caused extra time, which is otherwise so precious.
Picture him played by Willem Dafoe Picture him played by Willem Dafoe Picture him played by Willem Dafoe Picture him played by Willem Dafoe Picture him played by Willem Dafoe Picture him played by Willem Dafoe Picture him played by Willem Dafoe Picture him played by Willem Dafoe Picture him played by Willem Dafoe
"You know, I'm something of a steward myself." 🤭 But the problem wasn't the actor. John Noble had more than enough gravitas to portray the character correctly. The script just didn't allow him to. 😕
@ Spangelicious, you are correct! John Noble is an amazing actor. I love the LOTR movie trilogy, but pj did Denothor dirty in my opinion. Yes he turned away, but he did so much to defend Gondor as well. I wish they had portrayed him more like that in the films.
Thanks to Arkham Knight, I can no longer watch John Noble in Lotr without thinking about Scarecrow or expecting him to start talking about fear. Know that I think of it why wasn’t he cast a Sauron or the Nazgûl? No disrespect to the actors, but his Scarecrow was far more menacing than any of their performances. I feel it was because he had an actual personality and whose character wasn’t, I would say cardboard, but that be to generous to the cardboard.
Denethor was described as appearing more kingly even than Aragorn, and as looking like an elder version of Aragorn, as he was taller than Aragorn. I hate how the movies portray him as a short saggy old guy.
I will do my best to remember to check the name and tell you when I’m in the office tomorrow 😁 (my memory can be bad though so apologies in advance 😂😂😂)
Peter Jackson should make a film about the life of Denethor. What we see in the films might indeed be a fair portrayal of the results of his downfall, and it might be seen differently if his back story gave those results a context
I think that if you wanted to portray him like the book, it would have added at least another hour to the film. So I think the film makers just went straight to the ending of his character
Theoden and Denethor. Now onto the subject of the current video. Movie Denethor vs book. I understand the complaints about how he was portrayed and those that advocate for just a tiny bit more context to deepen our understanding of his true character arc. While I can agree with those, somehow (perhaps through just catching some subtleties I can’t really pinpoint in John Noble’s performance, I always felt an unseen complexity and understood he was declining rapidly, physically and mentally, when we meet him in the films. I think swing some use of the Palantir would have gone a long way to convey such to new audiences. Despite some of his less than desirable qualities, I instinctively knew he had been a decent leader, given his protection of surrounding lands for so long and that, beyond the surface seeming that he was perhaps greedy to retain the throne against a rightful ruler of direct royal lineage, his reasoning was more complex than that. He’d done well in that rule and, even in despair and muddling mind frame, clung to that loyalty to the station. He also may have still felt himself more fit for it than the man who had hidden from his duty so many years, even if there were sound reasons for doing so. I haven’t read the books in quite some time (gonna remedy that), so being reminded of the past history between Aragorn and Denethor helped clear some of that up, as well. It’s possible there was some jealousy and resentment there for how well liked Aragorn was in Ecthelion’s eyes, over his son, Denethor, who then had to step up to rule in his place when Aragorn laid low. Then he waltzes back in to take up the mantle in such a delicate time. After all of Denethor’s strength and sacrifice and losses & the seemingly impossible current circumstances going on. I tried to see it from his point of view, despite knowing he was not in the right and was unwell. I always felt a sadness at his manner and timing of death because I always had this heavily laden feeling of what could have been, both politically and personally, had he lived and possibly been helped in some way (if that was possible after so much Palantir damage had accumulated). Even Gandalf seemed to express some modicum of regret for how Denethor’s passing came to be when he announced it out loud. In short, after this lengthy post already 😆, I agree the film portrayal could have been done better in some way, but I can easily accept what we got and not feel too unfulfilled.
Would it have been better if the entire book trilogy had been turned into a series? It might have given the audience a better understanding of the intricacies the movues wouldnt have had time to show
The stuff that happened in Gondor was so confusing in the book that I don't even remember Denathor in the book. I remember only the healing hall and Eowyn killing the Witch King. Plus Gimli and Legolas' competition of who killed the most all through the battle.
funny, you comment sounds like what I'd expect from somebody who only knows the story through the movie - I read the books long before I saw the movie, and clearly remember Denethor & his subplot with Pippin, his relationship with Faramir and (implied) Boramir, his skepticism bordering on hostility to Aragorn's claim to the throne, etc. I remember the kill count as being a very minor distraction in the books, but much more front & center in the movies.
if you took your time to read it you wouldn't be confused, too many people try to speed through a book. in my opinion its better to take extra time reading each page, so you actually understand the full story.
Was he misrepresented? Or were we just seeing him after *years* of mental battles against Sauron through the Palantir? The difference between screen and text is that onscreen we only see what we are shown. Text can contain a lot more exposition. Denethor obviously wasn't insane his whole life of else even Boromir would have commented on it. The issues were that Denethor couldn't get it through his head that using the Palantir was a bad idea, and things really were coming to a head with an impending invasion from Mordor. So his sanity was stretched to the breaking point.
