Sooo right. And that's why I loved 1995 Pride and Prejudice much more than the 2005 version, because Elizabeth Bennet is shown as a witty, funny but also sensible and mature woman who cares about social codes and appearances enough to be,as you said, respectable. Also, I found really interesting what you said about Lydia's character in contraposition with Lizzy. Everybody "hates" Lydia for the same reason as they "mistakenly" love Lizzy (because she does what she wants) and that's really ironic. Thank you for your intelligent points of view.
It is interesting, isn't it? I do think I probably prefer Lizzy in the 1995 Pride and Prejudice, and I do get very cross with Lizzy in the 2005 always going outside without a bonnet - something Lizzy would never do!
I prefer the 1995 one for many different reasons- but the main one is because it understands the source material far more in that it was meant as a romance, but also as a comic social commentary. I like Joe Wright as a director, but it feels like he thought of it solely as a romance, and so shot it that way. ...also, the 2005 one has everyone talking way too quickly. :)
For completely coincidental reasons, I just read these sentences from Anne in Persuasion: "indeed, Mary, I cannot wonder at your husband. Nursing does not belong to a man; it is not his province. A sick child is always the mother's property: her own feelings generally make it so."
I am catching up on videos and finally got a chance to watch this one! I agree with you completely- and it's such an interesting topic. I think as modern readers we tend to see through our own lens as we read classics, but the time period and society these books are written in are so very important. I do love the '95 mini-series of Pride & Prejudice, but as a history major, the little details get to me after a while too. Great video!
I think that she’s not modern for the 2000s or the 1960s or the 1920s or the 1850s but that she certainly had ideas that were modern for the regency period
I just now got around to watching this vid, and yes, yes, yes, I agree with everything! I think the one novel where it becomes really clear that Austen is not THAT modern is "Sense and Sensibility". You can totally feel that Austen is connecting more to Eleanor who represents traditional values, and not to Marianne who is more modern and challenging social norms. Same goes for Fanny and Anne - I felt like those were heroines that Austen really identified with, because their core values remained the same, whereas Marianne, Catherine and Emma were kind of "tamed" and saw the "wrongness/silliness" in some of their behaviour. It's such a fascinating topic really!
Ha thank you :) I thought you would agree. All your Jane Austen discussions have prompted this! I can definitely see that in Sense and Sensibility with Marianne and Eleanor - Eleanor gets more rewarded, Marianne has to amend her preferences and views. There's a big divide between her heroines who stay steady in their values and those who are kind of tamed. Ah Austen, such a fascinating writer...
I have always struggled with Jane Austen in general for this exact reason--the belief that her books are modern. I agree I don't find them all that modern. Pride and Prejudice, which was the first Austen that I ever read, and the one that I have reread the most, has always stumped me because I could never understand why Lizzy actually forgives Darcy for interfering with Bingley and Jane. But your argument about how Lizzy is intent on (mostly) conforming to the social norms and her intense embarrassment when Darcy points out the 'want of propriety' of her family makes it a bit clearer to me. She sees that he is right, undeniably so. I am excited to reread Pride and Prejudice having watched this video.
Loved this video SOOOO much , I have already watched it twice. I was going to do a video today for her 200 year anniversary but I didn't finish the book I was going to review in time haha whoops. I love this vid and completely agree with everything you said especially about modern films having the same plot as featured in Austens books but Jane did not have a crystal ball and didn't know that 200 years later we would have films and tv shows based on her plots......loved this discussion (sorry for my waffle)
Thanks Lil :) One of my favourite odd pass-times is matching up modern rom-com plots to Jane Austen novels. Have you seen this? :P www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=263
I had not seen that before but haha that is brilliant!! oh that has cheered me up.....brilliant!! Also still need to read Hark a Vagrant, been sat on the wish list far too long
Yes to everything you say in this video!!! I completely agree with you on the issue of bonnets in the 2005 P&P adaptation! There are so many ways I feel that they over modernized Lizzie Bennett in that film...SO many. :D
They massively over-modernised her! I really enjoy the film for the dynamics and look of it and I like most of the actors, but it distresses me how often she is out without her bonnet!
Wickham is not a happy ending - LOL. This is the best summary of this storyline I have ever heard. Great video! And now I want to watch the 2005 P&P, haha.
Jane Austen is my favorite author too. Thanks for the video. Please do a video about reading books.. Many youth neglect reading books in today's world.
WAIT A MINUTE YOU ARE ON TO SOMETHING: In the story, Lydia is condemned by her family for running off Wickham, perhaps rightfully so because she puts the status and reputation of her family at risk BUT!!! Lizzie does the act same thing, risking her family's future by refusing not ONE but TWO advantageous marriage proposals at a time when her parents finances are desperate. And this would be fine if Elizabeth (Austen, herself) didn't uphold Elizabeth's actions as nobel and progressive while condemning Lydia for exploring her own sexuality. . . wow. I have always had problems with Pride and Prejudice, but I've never even thought about that. WOW
First, thank you for opening my exes about Lydia - like WOW, you are correct. I think it was Ellie Dashwood in her 2022 Persuasion movie review who made an interesting point - Jane Austen was modern for her times, she was maybe 2 or 3 steps ahead of the rest of the society but she was definitely not 200 steps ahead- one of the MANY problems with Persuasion 2022 was that they took 2022 heroine and put her in regency setting.
This is a very interesting and thoughtful discussion, Katie. Lady Russell is one of the characters who, for me, supports your position that Jane Austen's novels mirror the times she was living. She was well-meaning, but she almost wrecked the life of her goddaughter Anne, one of my favorite Austen heroines. Thanks again for all the work and thought you put into your videos!
True, but I don't think her wrecking Anne's life supports that idea of Austen as Regency values, it is the way Anne responds to them. She thinks she was right in listening to Lady Russell, not because Lady Russell was right but because she was basically her mother and so she deserved obedience. That is quite an about turn from Elizabeth Bennet refusing Mr Collins against her mother's wishes, but I suspect had Mr Bennet told her to do it, it would have been much more scandalous for her to refuse because of the obedience thing.
Katieee I'm so, so late but I loved this. Lydia B. has always been my favorite character in Pride & Prejudice because she gave voice to a kind of curiosity that I feel would come naturally growing up in an environment where rules were so set. You're definitely right about her being punished for that curiosity too. *sideeyes Mr. W* Speaking of Austen and being modern, have you seen the web series The Lizzie Bennet Diaries here on RU-vid? I found it super entertaining and you might like it if you haven't already seen it. :D
I'm glad you enjoyed it. Lydia is fascinating and Jane Austen's presentation of her is so telling of the time. And yes, I know the Lizzie Bennet diaries well XD I ADORE it.
For me part of the fun with Austen is her description of a very different society from our own. I like the way how the culture can be so very different, and yet the individual personalities are so recognizable. I think you make good points on how her moral views was not ahead of her time. (Indeed, her depiction of a character like Lydia suggests there were some people who were questioning the accepted morals already, but Jane Austen comes down on the conservative side.) I am always suspicous of claims that books were ahead of their time, when the first readers did not find anything revolutionary about them. Did any conservative Regency parent feel that reading Austen would give their daugthers dangerous ideas? I suspect not.
I agree. I love how Jane Austen is so thoroughly Regency, and as she wasn't thought terribly scandalous at the time, it's probably because she just wasn't!
Interesting video. I would take exception to your assertion that Fanny Price "wins" however. Fanny Price "wins" Edmund, who is a complete prig, formerly infatuated by Mary Crawford, and only, and reluctantly comes around to Fanny because she is also a prig. Not much of a prize if you ask me!
I'm not a massive fan of Austen, but I do think that her books are a lot of fun and I do enjoy reading them. I loved this discussion so much, because I find myself always wondering why people think the social issues in Austen novels are so profound. Thanks for another great video :)
Brilliant as always! I used to think of Jane Austen as the equivalent of popular YA books like Gossip Girls or The Clique series. She is of course so much more than that though! Though her values aren't entirely modern, she has created rom-com plot lines and archetypes that still resonate with our society. The personalities and characters she creates can be easily adapted to mesh with modern day thinking, but that doesn't mean they adhere to modern values in the context of her books. The way certain female characters are criticized in her novels is something I'd certainly like to explore more. In what ways is their criticism similar to modern cattiness seen in something like Gossip Girls or Mean Girls, and in what ways does their criticism function differently? I kinda wanna watch Lost in Austen now. And I really should read some more Austen!!
It's interesting to think of Jane Austen's criticism of other female characters might be similar to Mean Girls, etc, and how it differs. I'll have to have a long think about it. Oh you should watch Lost in Austen - it is very silly but very hilarious! Have you seen the youtube series The Lizzie Bennet Diaries or Emma Approved, which update Austen novels? They're great fun.
I decided to watch Lost in Austen right away as I'm in the mood for something silly right now. Yes, I've seen The Lizzie Bennet DIaries and Emma Approved. They are lots of fun as well. I think my favorite modern commentary on Austen (besides Clueless of course, which is the best!) is Austenland!! I haven't read the Austenland books, but the movie is spectacular!
Great discussion. Have to agree that Lydia is more modern than Lizzie, if you had to choose one. And interesting insight on Austen and "silly" women! I had always found that perplexing, why she characterized nearly all of Lizzie's sisters as silly, and her mother as well. Yes Lizzie is contrasted as sensible, but the silliness feels like overkill. Clearly like you said, such women really bothered her.
Great video! It gave me a lot to think about. I like that you can love a book or an author, and at the same time you can be critical and objectively assess their work.
This is such a great video and the topic is well discussed! I love Jane Austen and I totally agree with all the things you said. Speaking of "modern enough" and "modern too much", actually the issues Jane Austen tried to address in her books still exist in today's society. Somehow a "modern enough" character will be more acceptable in the society, just like Lizzy. But if a person is too modern like Lydia, more often the community will reject her :( I think maybe that's why Jane Austen is considered to be modern by many people? But yes, she have some limitations by her era XDD
Thanks! She's such an interesting author. I can definitely see what you say with today's society too; the difference that is drawn between people who break social codes a little and people who break them a lot. So it is kind of interesting to see Austen translated to today.
I love your honesty and insight here! Being "modern" is not being "better". There are some timeless truths and some things are OK and not OK, some are good and some not. I think the characters in some of these true classics are ageless. They represent qualities that have always been good, whether sanctioned by society or not. They also show qualities which are not good for anyone or any society. And the fact that they deal with them without the perversion we often see in the "modern" world makes them all the more wonderful. I admit I am a purist but misrepresenting greatness by adding to or taking away from it based on current social norms or world views of the time is just, well, perversion (twisting) of a really good thing and does not make me happy. Your reviews DO, though! It is nice to see someone with sensitivity to other times and places, cultures and ideas and neither the pride nor the prejudice to think that because the majority of people think differently now we are somehow better than the people of other ages. Thanks for a stimulating video.
I'm not sure I necessarily think modern isn't better, if that makes sense - I'm not sure. I just think it's important to not read books in a vacuum and forget about the time period authors were writing in. Jane Austen was a thoroughly regency person!
I agree and disagree with your points. I think the reason why her stories are considered 'modern' is because alot of those issues she's presenting can still be felt today. I don't think she's "modern " for the reasons listed , but because she understands human behavior. Alot of authors in her time period were more plot driven than character driven so we don't get inside the characters heads thus they appear one dimensional, but with Austen understands the complexity of being human. Like Lizzie may want to change some ways like marrying for love and such, but also may feel embarrassed because of Lydias running off. Similar to today where we want women to be more liberated, but we'd be embarrassed if a female mate was obnoxious with sleeping around- it's complex. Her characters are complex like we are today because they aren't one dimensional unlike other authors. However, she did live in the Regency period, so of course she will be a women of her time to an extent. I don't think it's an either /or scenario and that's why she is so beloved.
Interesting - I do certainly think that Jane Austen still feels relevant, and her writing style is quite ahead of its time in many ways; the psychological depth and the free indirect discourse is very unusual for its time.
A worthy mention is that Austen was leaning on the Conservative side of politics and status quo, and this reflects on her writing. You may argue her novels have a theme of Conservative vs Progressive showing on the characters' actions.
I think you can see that. Helene from Books by Leynes was saying in another comment on this video how you can see that in Eleanor vs Marianne in Sense and Sensibility. A lot of her books have a kind of division between conservative vs progressive or traditional vs modern.
Charlotte Bronte was a feminist, but I am not sure Jane Austen was. I don't know what she thought about her brothers being naval officers, clergymen, farmers, landlords (just looking up on the internet) while those options were not open to ladies, as in whether she thought it was natural or unjust. I can't remember any of her characters explicitly criticising the situation. She was too subtle for that anyway. BTW, have you seen the Jane Austen Matchmaker cards?
I haven't seen these cards. What are they? I think Charlotte Bronte is probably more feminist than Austen although she, like Austen, has a lot of "girl-hate" in her books; the way Lucy Snowe views Ginevra Fanshawe in Villette really reminds me of how Austen presents someone like Harriet in Emma.
I'm going to have to do a correlation study. I notice the teapot stays the same but the cup changes. On videos where you use a smaller cup, does that mean your tea is more concentrated? You seem to be speaking VERY quickly in this one. Could this be super-charged lapsang souchong?
Well no, I brew the tea for the same amount of time in the same size teapot. I just seem to speak much quicker in older videos because these days I digitally slow down all my videos to about 85%. This video is more how I actually speak in real life!
@@katiejlumsden I was pulling your leg about the tea (does ANYONE really like LS tea?). I can believe you are a natural fast talker. I would hate to have you as a Spanish instructor. Thanks, and good luck with the book. Would Catherine Tilney read it?
I don't get the point: Every writer belongs to his own time and culture. It's insane to judge a writer who lived 2 centuries ago with our values and categories (which by the way are not the best and final). Lydia is not free from rules. She follows the rule that says: when a girl fancies herself in love with a guy she absolutely has to run away with him in a romantic elopement. Moreover, when she comes back to longbourn, she is so happy because she knows that as a married woman she is benefited by the rule of leading the way among her sisters even if she is the youngest. Everyone, in every time and place, lives by the rules of the culture where he happened to be born. There is always a tension between external rules and the inner self; the point is to be aware of it and try to find a balance to live the happiest life we can. That's what austen's heroes try to do. And this is timeless.
Ok, Miss B&T... I have got to beg something of you. First: with all your hobbies and works growing up, I am surprised chess isn't one of them, (it wasn't listed in your ("life story" vid), but I'll assume you have ample knowledge about the game. I have to believe you hung with the nerdSquad in school enough to be thoroughly familiar. When watching your vids..and trying to digest what you are communicating, it has me imagining I am forced to play a game against an 1900 player while I am high on about 5 cups of Chock Full O' Nuts coffee, and stuck playing with a clock... WHICH I CAN'T STAND. It's a game where you have to think patiently to make your best possible move with the board set as is after your opponent's last move; even if it takes you all friggin' day! You talk so dang fast, I can't digest the stuff properly. I mean, if you were doing an audioBook voiceOver of a Jane Austen novel, would you read it that fast? LOL It almost appears as if you are forced to pay for air time by the minute. Relax. sheeesh Try a few vids as if you were a teacher in a class of passionate 14 year olds who really do want to absorb your material and wisdom.
