Judging by some of the comments-DO PEOPLE ACTUALLY LISTEN to read what Steve has said in the comments? THIS IS A STREET CAR. You don't have a race frame that you can modify to fit larger parts like a bigger dry sump oiling system. Do any of you keyboard experts have any idea of how many hours goes into the programming of the CNC machine to build that billet block? And another few thousands hours figuring out how to make it work in a confined space meaning "we have to make sure it fits in the car" ? How many hours have gone into this build without charging the customer for the time? How many people would take the time to video this process while the kinks are figured out? Nobody.... but Steve does. That is CUSTOMER SERVICE.
No I'm not going to listen to what he says because people have been arguing about cte for ages . There are people who are dead set on what they know and aren't interested in hearing from other industries that manage heat. The people who are educated left the internet long ago because they realize that this is not a place to share ideas.
Eh.. prob one of very few people on the planet that can honestly say they did restorations builds and some pretty neat engine builds and conversions on classic euros. 1 of 1s, historic vehicles, some stupendously rare cars.. last car before I moved on was featured on Jay lenos garage 2 days after i wrapped it up. I don't see what you're getting at🤣 s.m. is filming this for RU-vid views.. getting that influencer money🤣 I wouldn't say recording yourself working is customer service... when I submitted a 100k bill every few months the customers had zero doubt I had in fact accomplished whatever they had asked, nor did they need to be convinced when some weird or unique event happened that was bizarre or far out of their understanding or experience. Simple explanation was just fine. If they were curious I'd take them out to the shop/coachwerks/motor shop whatever and show them to satiate their curiosity (most customers were insanely smart and well off. Surgeons, CEOs, engineers of some rare discipline. That all said I sure love the fact that Steve shares so willingly his experience and knowledge. That is phenominal! But I don't see making RU-vid as customer service. Double dipping if anything lol
@@notyouraveragegoldenpotato the operating temperature of an engine is determined by the thermal expansion of aluminum pistons and steel sleeves. The CTE of cast iron is very low.
Great discussion. When I was working on piston clearance for the Franklin Drag Week car, I heated a cylinder and then a piston in a crab pot of boiling water then compared sizes of hot to ambient. I was shocked at the changes in size. I estimate that piston to wall clearance closes up .0040 - .0045 from ambient to operating temperature. That's why it sounds like the engine is beating itself to death on cold start.
Forged pistons expand more that is why they have a looser spec for clearance. Also pistons aren't round either because they expand more across the pin bores.
I work in an engine plant and one thing I've seen with some cast iron and aluminum blocks (OE cast stuff) is the main bore measurements change between being mounted on an engine stand and and just sitting on flat granite block. We have started measuring most mains on a large cmm and the blocks are supported in a cradle fixture or flat their decks.
Awesome content regarding the deep dive into the expansion and contraction of an engine block and a bit of metallurgy. Hope to see a refresh video in detail of Mullet’s engine soon.
Thanks for all the tech stuff you do, I find it very interesting. I got hurt almost 30yrs ago, fraid a nerve like a rope in my rt arm, and have been in chronic pain in my arms ever since. I went to Motech automotive Ed center, to become a mechanic. Though that never happened, because of before said, injury. So watching all your tech stuff, has educated me a lot, and wish I was able to do all that. My dream job was to work in an engine shop like your's. I've even been fallowing Houston because of you. Thanks for all the awesome information. Keep up the awesome work.
I would like to add that the crankshaft grows 1/2 of what the block grows. For the block it grows 12 millions of an inch per degree Fahrenheit and the crank grows 6 millions of an inch per degree Fahrenheit so it’s just exactly 1/2 Siri cannot forget about the crankshaft growing
He mentioned it was a steal crankshaft didn’t he? He said it’s not gonna grow 3.5 - 4 thousandths but it will grow. I could be wrong about the crank being steal but he did mention it wouldn’t grow enough.
You can remove material around the webbing to decrease expansion. Also if you can request future upgrades to the crank shaft you could add wiper bearings on every journal, sort of like thrust bearings; this will add a longer oil path helping with pressure.
This is one reason I prefer that all of the materials inside my engines are as close to identical as I can possibly make them. That helps resist physical change and deformation of parts and unwanted changes in clearances.
The crank will grow .0016 at 155 degrees, so you have around an extra .001 at 155 degrees. I'm confident at 200 degrees, the clearance will be even more significant because the aluminum block grows faster than the steel crank.
@@bigboreracing356 - Agree but just wondering how you would do it here. Guessing you would have to bypass that whole pump mechanism and use both external oil and water pumps.
@@danmyers9372 RU-vidr Peter Bjorck put a dry sump on his Lambo V10 swapped Volvo. One of the problems that Steve mentioned in this video is the mains clearance growing is effectively starving the rods which is difficult to solve, because the mains feed the passages to the rods.
Pumps don't create pressure only flow therefore you need more flow from the pump since the "leak" around the mains is so large and since you have to use a stock pump you're kind of screwed. I really enjoy these videos. Thanks for all the info!
Pumps most certainly do produce "pressure" that's why we have an oil pressure gauge. To gauge how much pressure is being produced by the oiling system.
Exactly, @compt' - excessive interal 'leakage' reduces the resistance to the flow the pump is capable of producing. The chap above doesn't understand that the pressure is a result of the resistance to flow.
@@derucktorez2260 if you take a pump with the output completely open and it has no restriction if you put a pressure gauge on it there will be no pressure just flow. If you add a small restriction there will amazingly be pressure on the output. Its a hard concept to understand.
Holy shit, I did this same thing with an LS engine and my VR38 literally 2 weeks ago. I've always wondered. I put them in a power coating oven and just kept checking. I was amazed by how much changed. It's just reinforces the saying "if your oil clearances are too high, no one will know. If they are too low everyone will know". Big clearances and thick oil has always worked for me.
Absolutely fantastic video, I was just wondering if there was an application for using ultrahigh temperature Graphalloy bearings like the ones my company uses in our space vehicles and nuclear reactor turbines. They have the ability to not only handle thousands and thousands of degrees of temperature but also resist bearing failure when lubricating oils lose their viscosity due to temperature degradation. Just a thought....
@@stevemorrisracing our engineering department and pretty much all our departments (except for security)are closed until Monday due to Thanksgiving but I will get with our department Monday and get back with you to find out if this is an available option. I know that all of the main bearings in all of the nuclear turbines they we have built in the last 15 years are almost exactly like the crank main bearings of gas engines.
@@leepopwell3021 No, a fully machined piece of Custom blended Graphite like a mechanical seal face. I have used it for conveyor corner wheel bushes in ovens and the like. Not very abrasion resistant and quite brittle. Keep them clean and they will run for years.
Not alot you can do about aluminum growth but some types grow more than others. From Memory a silicone alloyed blend is the most stable. It is regularly used for casting. 356 from memory grows the least and is quite rigid. About 10% less growth than 6061 that I think is the same as the billets that get machined. It is a bit more difficult to machine but not bad. It would easily be as strong. However I would have thought that there would still be enough room for an electric water pump and remove the shaft driven unit so a larger oil pump could be fitted. Just need to remake the oil pump and have water inlet and outlets that could be plumbed. You could regain some room as the thermostat would no longer be required? It would be cheaper than a bottom end rebuild and give it a higher stability on the bottom end? Just a thought. Cheers
The only thing I can think of doing to mitigate expansion, is do what Bugatti did. Use hypereutectic aluminum that has similar expansion rates to steel. They had this exact problem due to the engine going into a street car. They went to hypereutectic aluminum block and piston with nickasil linings. The pistons don't even have rings, they're just coated.
My forgings grow on average . 0002" per 10 degrees Fahrenheit per inch of diameter. Larger internal or external diameter parts grow more than small diameters. Your billet is growing. 00016" * 65 degree temp rise * 2.5" (a guess) diameter = .0026 growth + . 0018" starting point = .0045". I use this as a temperature compensation on my 5 axis machines to hold tolerance.
Holy sh^t. I knew it would grow, but not that much. Great look inside some of the problems you run into when trying to make a bajillion horsepower. The level of technical detail here is off the charts. Any way of separating the pressure oil flow between block and heads/turbos, then adding a separate oil pump for the heads/turbos?
I just watched an inreview with Ed Pink, and he talked about clearances and setting them up depending on the owner/user of the motor. Including race teams that ALWAYS pre-heat, some that may preheat some of the time, and the rest that never do it.
2 ideas come to mind. 1) machine the oil pump rotor pocket larger for larger gears (as much as you can) to increase volume. 2) i know you said having the customer wait to drive their car while the block heats up isn't feasible (because they won't, and we know it, lol) BUT, what about an oil pre-heater to get it up to temp faster? Maybe with a thermostat and have it limit power in the tune til it's up to temp so it can't be romped on.
@@RustyWells2 You don't need to limit horsepower on an engine that isn't running, ya know, one hooked up to a pre-heater... Didn't you read what I wrote?
A friend of mine uses a convection oven to heat his engine builds to verify his clearances. Especially hot valve clearances before initial startup on interference engines. And he will turn the oven up to about 275 and a -70 freezer for sleeves and valve guides.
Something that may aid the oil pressure issue would be to use external electric high pressure pumps for the turbo's, a little less internal leakege can't hurt, and a delay on them could continue the oil to lubricate and cool them on cool-down with the engine shut down. Alternative, or as well as, the end housings of the pressure stage look like they could be relief machined a millimeter, or two or three, to use slightly longer gears - basically in-setting the longer gears into the side plates/housings? It may not be a lot, but every little helps.
Steve, at close range the dot on thr IR gun is not where it is sensing, it's about an inch below it. Look at the front of the gun, the laser is about an inch above the IR sensors view. The view is also a 12:1 cone shape, it is probably shown on the side of the gun.
@@bigduphusaj162 You're mistaken. The area that the thermometer is measuring is much larger than the dot and centered about an inch lower. Try experimenting with it.
@@fascistpedant758 mate mine measures the actual dot. The dot is the bit that the little sensor is measuring. It tells you this in the instructions and I measure with it constantly I know exactly how mine works. Cheers anyway
Makes sense… (Expansion affecting clearances). (Such as in solid-lift valve lash, cold verses heated-up) Thank you again for more engine engineering education.
Use a piece of black electrical tape on shiny or low emissivity surfaces to get a more accurate representation of the temperature of the object you are measuring. The black will emit the IR radiation of the object it's stuck on, since they will be at the same temperature, as opposed to shiny surfaces that are actually reflecting the IR radiation from other objects nearby. FLIR even recommends Scotch 88, with an emissivity of 0.96, in their documentation for shooting low emissivity objects. Just like glare on a window that prevents you from seeing through the glass, shiny surfaces reflect more of the ambient IR radiation and prevent you from seeing the IR radiation from the object itself.
I bet some person has already mentioned it, I would make the main bearing holders from an alloy of steel /iron, that are retained within the aluminum block, to move the tolerance to the block bearing carrier interface
I always think with your billet closed deck deals that maybe a benefit of different viscosity bottom end oil to a different viscosity top end oil could be used in the same engine as two independent systems mainly for better tolerance control throughout 👍🇦🇺
Very similiar to an air cooled VW engine. The case made of aluminum grows as the engine warms up, and oil pressure falls. Sticking with a thicker oil is the answer... warmup is key... great info here !
What blows me away is the new vehicles don't have an oil dipstick and instead you have to take the temperature and then check the viscosity of the fluid to see what your oil level is
Since i rebuilt my little 4 banger 20k miles ago iv been running Rotella 15w40 for the zinc and the weight. It says 5w30 on the oil cap but it sounds bad with that thin of oil in it, everything starts making noise much earlier. Especially after a couple hundred miles. Cold starts are harder when it's really cold so I try not to drive it without it being heat soaked. I always assumed the added weight helps but its cool to hear it from the experts.
By the time You are spending the kind of money for a billet block why on earth would You not go all the way to do a proper oil supply solution to up the pressure and flowrate to accommodate those large clearances? This is great info thanks alot Steve love Your videos.
great vid for temp demo . i use to put bushing in demo hammers .005 - ,010 fit ... crio the bushing and slide right into housing . in a minute , never come out until WELD shrunk , again to replace ....
Mobile1 10w60, we see the same issues with the BMW v10, v12, jaguar v12 etc2. You could switch to the BMW 400w electric water pump, use 2, that'll give you options for making bigger pressure stage
The additional oil flow is probably the best option, a steel insert to carry the crank bearing is probably the only way to control the clearance mechanically, and that comes with its own issues. Using the dry sump properly with heated oil and a separate set of oil galleries around the bearing girdle to get that heat in before starting would be OK for race applications, but difficult to maintain in a street car, unless you have half an EV battery in there to run it with.
A friend of mine, Michael Landy of DLI fame ( Dick Landys brother) wanted to see how much the mains grew on KB block at 230°...and it tipped him over...how much it grew, and it was a Casting, not a denser Billet...
STEVE!!! What in the heck?!? Why don't you get huston to pay for a Daileys dry sump pump and modify the block to accept it and then build a pan for it. THIS IS TOTALLY WITHIN YOUR ABILITIES
What if you O-ring the oil ports in between the bearing and the block? Or what if you went with a Pined style bearing, but the pin is hollow and delivers the oil and keeps the bearing located.
Even when using a dry sump or fix the pump that oil is going everywhere and slowing it down a smidge. Gotta get them clearances back to an acceptable level and better pump flow all in one. I might even try a different bearing material until I could come up with a happy medium. My mind likes to race and think of 10 different things all at once. Even thought of tight thrust bearings on all throws, even with a built in oil squirter to the piston bottom, then even press fit pins to boot. It was racing alright. All the way to a oil pump cavity spacer and new pump rotor and weld the next passenges up and re machine to fit back to normal passageways. Good Stuff Steve Oh even a built in bottom piston oiler splasher sytem built right on the crank with the access oil came to mind.
Just a thought. The guys that have these type of engines. They usually use a battery tender. You could possibly put a diesel style block heater in the oil pan and put it on a thermostat on it and keep the oil at temperature always.
When we built engines in a temp controlled room. And you can hold a mic for so long or hit will heat up and expand the mic.. Cosworth Racing Torrance Ca..
The infrared gun it calibrated to read on a flat black surface which emits radiation at a higher rate compared to lighter color shiny surfaces. Use black paint dots where you want to do temp readings with a infrared temp gun.
More clearance is not a bad thing in a high performance application. Oil weights are key and running a much heavier weight oil is not a bad variable to make a package work. Contract with Amzoil to make you a special blend. Steel billet crank caps may be another compromise. That oil pump is a boondoggle. Rule of thumb is that anything more than .005 clearances will develop a knock
What about putting a thin rubber seal on the side of each main bearing to help hold the oil in the bearing housing? In any case I think you could install a block heater with an ignition cutout set to a safe temperature and reduce cold clearance to zero or even below zero, I've done this and it works perfectly well. Anyone with one of these cars and a high buck billet block engine would understand that a compromise has to be made and accept that fact and in any case these cars are usually parked in garages with access to mains electrical power to work the block heater, which could be on a timer, in an age of plug in electric cars it would not really be much different, otherwise a battery powered setup for when the car is parked on the street or just an automatic engine start and run to warm it up periodically while the car is parked outside..
Other than frankin Steining one ...build a better one . After just a little research, this seems to be a huge problem. A guy that could build an upgraded oil pump could make money. I believe your pointing to the oil scavenge section there...the high pressure section is right behind the input shaft
I believe the crankshaft journals should gain a bit in diameter as they heat up, not as much as the bearing I D. Have you ever placed a cylinder bore gauge in the block at a right angle to the crank shaft and pressed in on the sides of the block with your thumbs? It's surprising how much deflection can be had. A bit of advice with the laser lite don't point it at any eye yours the dog or any one, it will at best cause some discomfort. My 2 cents worth.
You never cease to amaze me on how well you break down what is technically going on with these engines. It like, wait!, there is more to show ya. My turn, Next thing you know the alignment of the stars in coordination with the Earth's inner core expansion with the weight of the oceans combined forces to energize the molecular structure of rotating metallic components fills in any tolerance that the elements can muster up depending on the position of Jupiter when Mars and Saturn aline in a Virgo moon rising during the solstice of winter, what? I'm not knocking what your doing bc it's really interesting to me that you go the distance and provide info on the important functioning of different components that I had never given much thought too.. Sorry bout the satire, but I couldn't resist.
Crank and rod radius grows too...but billet steel only thermally expands at half the rate as aluminum (6 vs 13 x 10^6 in / F* in)...if you heat the crank up too, and measured the difference, your cold 1.8 /1000 would grow to something around 2.5 to 3 /1000 vs your measured/estimated 4 - 5 thou at 200F...your rod clearances should remain constant if they are steel like the crank...if they are aluminum, they should expand at the same rate as the block...
It takes like 6 hours of running hot oil through the block of a formula car just to grow the block to loosen up the tolerance just so it will turn over to start.
At what point does the growth allow the bearing to spin? Can the factory oil pump feed an external pump? Or would it be best to plumb an external pump without the stock pump? I had no idea that billet would increase the clearance that much with only 150 degrees. Great information 👍 I had no idea how little I have been thinking about things. Good thing and bad thing is I'm thinking about everything more. So thanks Steve! I think. I can't get anything done for thinking about what I haven't been thinking about. 😁
Tighter clearance with block heater like F1 etc? I'd do it for the benefit of an aluminum block. Have start inhibited in the ECU until temp sensor sees X degrees? That's the one negative with billet. With casting you can use steel inserts for the main bearings. That's what the OEMS do for half of the mains (cap side) cutting the growth in half. A lot of higher end race engines are locked up cold. it's not unheard of. They all have to be preheated before starting. That's seriously what I would do with mandatory start inhibited in the ECU. It's not like anyone is going to use a billet block twin turbo Lambo as a daily. It's usually an event when they go out. If I remember correctly, I think it takes about 20 minutes for the block preheat. They heat both the coolant and the oil. The coolant is circulated.
And bearing crush is going to be reduced with heat, this can lead to it spinning in the bore. Yes, the steel bearing backing will grow however aluminum expands at a greater rate than steel.
saw a F1 documentary few years ago there engines are basically locked up when cold they heat them before starting amazing that steve morris explained it better than a F1 documentary did . great work steve
What about a steel main saddle and cap arrangement, similar to cylinder sleeves, so that the main clearance doesn't grow any more than the big end clearance? Is there a way to to integrate that into the billet aluminum block without the same differential thermal expansion causing the block to tear itself off of the steel saddles?
Increasing the efficiency of the original oil pump may be tough but what about adding a supplemental pump to increase the volume and pressure after the oil reaches a certain temperature?
