Sounds as if the camshaft has had its day, probably (from my own S1 experience) not helped by clogged up oil galleries. Loss of 25 ish bhp is not a sign of a cared for vehicle. Why not get the engine up to full strength before investing in an electric fan and losing originality?
While a fixed blade fan will use more power as RPM rises, it's far more of a factor on a dyno where the airflow through the radiator is static. Going down the road, the airflow through the radiator reduces this load considerably. Much like a propeller on a boat/airplane at it's design cruise speed.
sure but you don't really need the hp cruising down the road. some examples of where you do need it is to climb a sand dune which will be slow speed, high revs. or to pull someone out of a bog or up a hill.
@@6226superhurricaneEven there you dont need it, it takes some time for the heat to get from the engine block in the coolant. Even when the coolant gets the heat there is still "cold" coolant in the lower area of the radiator. Even than there is alot of thermal mass to absorb the heat before you get critical temperatures.
good video , Volvo during the late 70's early 80's had these types of fans the worked incredility good and did this test on their CIS engines with and without the fans and found a difference of 5/6 hp at 2650 rpms and as much as 9.5 hp at 70 mph or above, so i upgraded to clutch type fan and noticed a difference right away and got 2.5 mpg better
I would say that is a significant power gain for zero cost. Leaving the engine fan in place when you have fitted an electric one is a practice that has always puzzled me.
@@TheKodiak72 From experience (in a kit-car with very poor airflow), should the electric fan fail, as long as you don't end up in a standing queue of traffic, the natural airflow due to the vehicle's movement is easily enough to cool the system.
Interesting to see your results, that is a massive percentage of the total power used by the fan! I have removed the engine driven fan from my RZ4E Isuzu pickup, combined with a tyre size change from 255/60/18 to 235/65/18 (identical dia) and A rated for fuel economy tyres i have seen a dramatic improvement in economy. 40.5mpg UK average over 10,000 miles with some journeys in the 50's! If you are not pulling massive loads in high temperatures get that fan off!
In horsepower numbers, it doesn't seem like a huge difference, but a 7,5% increase in power is a LOT. Think about what you would have to do tuningwise to get that number.
I've owned and driven old Land Rovers for the last 30+ years now. Here in the UK it was often talked about as one of the major HP improvements alongside free wheeling hubs, overdrive etc. Given the stock motor was stated as 65bhp its quicte interesting to see one on a dyno and to see the difference. I think it proves that in the real world its not worth pulling the fan off of a series truck. After all the fan and rad were set up to keep the engine cool for a wide range of conditions and environments. Nice to see another RHD over there. When my brother emigrated to Texas from the UK he shipped his S3 over too. great fun driving one in the USA.
Now you know how much the fan uses when stopped at a light while revving the engine. Having the vehicle actually moving down the road will reduce the fans drag as the air is already moving leaving the fan much less work to do and may even add some power if you are driving fast enough. Not likely in a stock Land Rover.😉😊 You don't need a fan at all if you are moving at least 30 mph. My favorite part about using a flex fan is when the blade breaks off from flexing so much and cuts though 12 tubes in the rad leaving a person stranded at the side of the road in the middle of the night with the temp at -40° F. Don't ask me how I know.😒😒
If you loose 10PS by using a fan, it means the fan is using 10PS or doing something (moving air) that requires 10PS. That’s a lot of air that could be moved and a large set of blades is required. So it kind of makes sense that the gain is rather limited. Nvertheless interesting to have it checked.
@@ErikB750 I'm just pointing out that if the fan moves air at 60 mph and your car is going 60 mph the fan really is not consuming any horsepower just parasitic losses. If the car is going 80 mph then the fan is trying to spin faster and is actually driving the engine a tiny bit. It would be very difficult to measure any of this and it certainly wouldn't be worth the effort.🙋♂😊 Even an 150 amp alternator at full rated output consumes less than 3 Hp.
I've been there and done that. Stranded on the side of a motorway, after the week-old electric fan shed a blade and put it straight through the radiator. The breakdown service got me another radiator and I drove the 170 miles home relying on the airflow of the car's movement to cool it. I did have to stop a couple of times, as it was a very busy day and there were numerous traffic jams with stop-start traffic.
in the early 70's I had a 302 cubic inch Ford v8 , on the dyno, removing the fan gained 12 hp. interestingly so did removing the air cleaner, a gain of 12 hp
It's not just the more rwhp but also the slightly faster throttle response at higher rpm ( yes I realize on the Landy that's a oxymoron) and faster getting to operating temp and less engine noise. Did this to all my vehicles back in 70s
@@mb106429 Nonsense, noisier from having no fan? its the opposite. But you could really increase throttle response, as there is less mass to move without a fan.
@@gabrielv.4358 I was talking about throttle response, not fan noise. The noise mentioned was the enging noise in response to the throttle, when you press the throttle the response is loads more noise.... and a tiny bit of power
I can remember driving my 850 Mini in the 70s when the fanbelt snapped. The charging light came on instantly but the biggest clue was the sudden surge in power - like I was suddenly driving a Cooper S!
I found that very interesting. Many years ago I was told 'if you fit an electric fan then remove the old one as it is not needed and will impede performance. So now we know. Yes there are variables but not that much gain really in this case. You made a good point which I was going to mention and that is you probably won't be running your Land Rover at 70 MPH but that was a good 'base line' to keep things on track. Thanks Steve please keep up the good work. 👍👍
I had a Rover 80 fitted wìth this engine. It was a luxury saloon / sedan which was virtually silent, except for the fan whine. I removed the fan and in 2 years of UK driving never noticed any increase in engine temperature, except when stuck in stationary traffic. I then fitted an aftermarket electric fan which only came on once in 2 years. The car was quieter and warmed up better on cold days. I felt it had more power and fuel consumption improved by a small but measurable amount as well.
There are more advantages to be had from removing the fixed mechanical fan from the LR S3 so long as there is a fully functional electric fan: 1) Quicker warm up of the engine, which will benefit the longevity and be a distinct advantage in winter when the heating is required. 2) The mechanical fan is a PITA in deep wading that the LR is capable of. It churns up and sprays water throughout the engine bay, potentially soaking the electrics. Without it you can rely on a bow wave and a depression in the engine bay to keep the water below the external level to such an extent that water can flood over the bonnet due to the depth and the engine will still suck clean air under the bonnet and the electrics will stay dry. The radiator is kept cool by the water 3) The woeful automotive fan belts can barely transmit the power to the fan, alternator/dynamo and water pump. Remove the fan and take the strain off the fan belt. Alternatively fit an industrial fan belt. In this application the fan is not in a shroud so its effectiveness is significantly reduced and you could expect that it is oversized just to account for this inefficiency. 7.5% power increase is not to be sniffed at. Imagine what engine modifications would have to be made to attain that figure say, multiple carbs, tuned exhaust etc. Removing the mechanical fan is a no cost improvement in power and probably a reduction in fuel consumption. The LR cooling fan installation is very poor from all aspects and the fact that an electric fan has been deemed to be necessary shows how ineffectual the standard system is. Why waste power and fuel on such inefficiency?
I've got a 62 IIA 88" that is relatively stock. I did an electric fan conversion a few years back and I am quite happy with it. I have no good way to measure the HP increase but 3-4 HP at the wheels is not insignificant. Also runs quieter, and gets about 1-2mpg better, and less wear and tear on the belt and water pump. at 60mph I get about 18mpg (safari hard top) One gotcha is making sure you've got enough alternator for the fan. The Series III in this has a lucas alternator. Not sure how many amps they were good for. I put in a 60 amp delco (replacing a 40) as part of my conversion. I had to play some games to get the original ammeter to still work but I did it.
Efficiency, fuel economy and less noise were the reasons auto manufacturers went on to electric fans that were controlled by a thermostat switch. Those percentage figures for power can translate to good fuel economy on long distance drives. At 40 Kph a vehicle pushes in enough air through the radiator to not need a fan, and the colder the ambient temperature the more a fan is not needed. Mechanical fans and also the old style "V" belts take up energy to drive them.
Also saves fuel as it warms up quicker by not pulling extra air thru the rad, not a lot, but any is good. In the UK we used to remove them for winter to aid heater and rad temps.
I had a series 3 Diesel in northern England, In winter I used to remove the fan and block half the radiator with a sheet of ply. It still never got too hot, but at least the heater worked, just😂.
Love the dyno videos. This made me remember when you had the mustang club come in and do runs. Honestly I love all you videos, but these are pretty cool and interesting to watch.
I once switched from mechanical to electric on a first gen Grand Cherokee. Forget power, the low load smoothness sold it to me. Takeoff from a stop felt sooo much better without the fan.
Rebuilding my mk 3 owned since 1983. I did fit a kenlowe fan in the late 1980s, saving fuel the main purpose, it still works so it will be refitted,I wonder how much fuel the freewheeling hubs save, i have fairy ones fitted same firm has the overdriive, interesting post.
Got fairies on mine, I’d say there’s a very small increase in mpg but it’s mainly beneficial for not having the ujs turning when I’m parking ( lwb) as lock to lock is usable. When the hubs are in the ujs kick before I get to lock stops. 200 Tdi no fan of any type but big series two rad. And 33.3 mpg average over the last 1200 miles
I think there was a FIAT with a thermostatically controlled clutch that drove the fan, I guess variably controlled pitch blades would be the ultimate. On the Air cooled racing Porsches, they accounted for the power taken for the fan (about 10 hp if I remember correctly, remarkably low for a racing engine, and accounted for by no radiator drag) so it could be compared with other engines.
My '76 Valiant runs the factory 3-core, HD cooling radiator, shroud & clutch fan with 7-blades. Running a 318, Thermoquad 4-bbl, dual exhaust with a cam better suited to the combo (2.76 rear gear, mediocre compression). I've had friends who have put on aluminum radiators & electric fans, but for the cost and issues they've had...it's not worth it to me even if I got a few HP at best.
Be interesting to dyno the vehicle running with the alternator under load running an electric fan, though in theory an electric fan wouldn’t run as constant as the engine driven one but nonetheless be intriguing to see a comparative power loss…
You are also gaining fuel mileage and, of course, throttle response. There is a reason all modern vehicles have gone to electric radiator fans and skeleton alternators. Not a huge gain but an easy one to acquire. Over about 35 MPH the movement of the vehicle is enough to keep it cool so some of the readings might have been influenced by the hot engine requiring alternator current to run the electric fan that under normal driving would not be necessary.
For most on road vehicles electric fans using less power from the engine can add a few mpg's. If something happened to the battery or alternator getting towed to a place for repairs isn't a problem. For off road where if something happened to the battery or alternator, an engine powered fan would let you drive the vehicle farther than an electric fan could. This could get out of a situation and back to a safe place to repair your vehicle. For drag racing or some other short course racing running an electric fan and water pump might give you a slight HP advantage over mechanical versions. All this said, you just have to determine what your needs are and use what best fits those needs. Doing this testing on a Dyno gives a definite value to how much HP it takes to run the fan. If you have several versions of fans to test on one engine this could show the difference between fan types. Your 4 blade steel fan against a 5 or 7 blade or even a 2 blade fan. Same with flex fans, getting several blade counts. Clutch fans might be an interesting variable to add in also.
Also running a mechanical fan in water is a bad idea. You want to have a fan you can disable or turn off easily if you think you will be doing any water crossings.
4HP on 40i s 10%. which is non-trivial. There's also the fact that in a temperate climatr, the fan is likely over-cooling, which delays warm-up and wastes fuel.
I was just shocked to see the speedo reach 70 MPH. My old 2A would only do that if it was pushed off of a high enough cliff. Then I realized that there was no rolling resistance from the front wheels and no air resistance at all and it made more sense.
We measured our S2A petrol at 128kph - going down a hill, no windscreen, nose on the steering wheel and laughing like a drain. It's got extractors, a well ported head and that's about it.
I saw a test in the states where they tested the fan , water pump and alternator and the alternator used by far the most power to run. Swop to an electric fan and the alternator needed more hp
Just a shroud would help a lot with the efficiency of the cooling fan, is ridiculous heaving a pulling fan so far away and without any device to focus its power to pass air through the radiator
That was super interesting and the effort it took you to prove and re prove was very good of you to do the work to find out. I have a diesel series 2.25 liter which i have owned 25 years and i have from the beginning always done the bmw ethos of efficient dynamics ie lots of tiny things adding up to a lot and consequently got my gas mileage up around 38mpg and more at times but the 38 is about avg. so 3.9 diffs , freewheeling hubs,O/D,fan removed,larger wheels to aid taller gearing, ep75 gear oil all round. But mostly a light right foot and backing off when climbing any kind of long incline
The problem with flexing blades is that it takes power to make them flex. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Back in the late 1950s, early 1960s there were articles in the UK motoring press about people who had made DIY electric cooling fans and removed the metal fan. More m.p.g. was claimed. Kenlowe soon began selling fans as an aftermarket mod and much later electric fans were fitted to many new cars as standard.
Install an electric fan with 2 speed control it will be more economical ,,, or a fan with electro clutch Peugeot style ,, but all is adding complications and weak links ,, great analysis , thank you !!
Just for the record I run a 200 tdi defender with no viscous fan and no electric fan, hasn’t had a fan in 15 years, no problems whatsoever in traffic, towing or heatwaves, obviously more thermo efficient than 2:25 petrol but just putting that out there
You need the fan to blow air around the engine as much as anything because the bulkhead is a real air blocker. I run the fan and no free wheel hubs, because if I want economy a 58’ landy is a real bad place to start :D Nice S3. Very ‘clean’.
With solid (old style) fan blades, biggest difference I have seen with SBC was about 20+ hp. I have not tested with my H3, but when the cluch fan is on, it feels like towing a small trailer. When I replaced the fan with two electric ones of my -79 Blazer, there was a noticeable increase in mileage, as it has Turbo 350 that is 3 speed only, so the engine rews all the time. And, it is no longer a leaf blower when I start it in the fall...
Although not a factor with the Landie a fixed fan can make a lot of noise at high engine revs. I think you could hear the difference between the with and without fan runs in this video. Don't know if that was noticeable inside. Viscous fans usually go to full slip at about 3k rpm so should not get any noisier after that.
These vehicles cooling systems were designed to tow off road, and as a static or slow moving machine compatible, with the power take off on the rear of the transfer box. The cooling system is over engineered, and in 9 out of 10 cases, will not need the mechanical fan. Summer, summer towing, off road slow speed yes, but in these cases, an electric fan is sufficient. The radiator/and general capacity is huge.
On a moving vehicle all types of fans will windmill as road speed rises. The biggest advantages of removing a mechanic fan is faster warm up and improved fuel. Consumption
The other factor is the ratio of the crank pulley to the fan/water pump pulley. Some fans run at crank speed, some faster, some slower. This varies HP used to run the same size fan. One things for sure, Landrover built that car with no horsepower, and it still has most of it left 😂.
It sounds like the engine has a knock. FWIW, back in the 70s I owned a '65 rhd 88. It had seen had use in its life, so I rebuilt the engine. Later I installed a Rochester carb that made a big change in the power.
Back in the 70s, I had a Toyota with a fluid coupled fan, allowing it to not turn at engine speed, but still draw air thru. You could stop the fan with your hand. Spooky, but I saw it done.
Interesting video I'm assuming this was a direct drive fan with no viscous clutch... I'd love to see what the horsepower change is with the transmission brake versus the x brake .....
Really Interesting video. Just a shame you didn't do a couple more runs with the fan on. When you are talking such marginal gains in the measurable units. There was an 8% variance in your benchmark runs. Using the upper and lower benchmark datum points the Landy gained between 10% & 19% power without the fan. Ask any engine tuner is that sort of gain amazing for a no cost 10minute job. Hell yes it is! Its all in the stats😅
I wonder if there's a way to test this at road going Speeds where air is already being pushed through the radiator theoretically taking less power to turn the fan? I was driving a 79 ford with a 460 cruising down the freeway and the fan clutch locked up from a bearing going bad and i couldnt believe how hard it pulled the engine down! Felt like someone dropped an anchor!
I have a friend with a dyno and a huge fan wall that can give you the same air speed as at each speed, I have been thinking about using that dyno for some interesting tests.
Those fans are horrendous, waste loads of power and fuel. You need every drop you can get in these vehicles, they drink it like a fish. Get rid of the fan, and upgrade to a serpentine belt if you can because the original belt is as tough as old boots and must waste a horsepower as well. The metal fans are really dangerous if anything gets caught in them. The fan is never needed, maybe parked in the sun idling on a hot day. In the UK in winter people used to put carpet or something over the grille to try to get the engine warm enough for the heater to work, also back in the day Antifreeze or a working thermostat used to be a luxury and people would often start the landrover on a frosty morning and the howling gale of cold air through the radiator would freeze it solid and they'd drive off unknowing...... and boil the engine up a couple of miles down the road! The most exciting part with these fans is if you go into deep water and rev it, the totally rigid unforgiving steel blades bend forward and eat the RADIATOR ! which is a fantastic design feature for you to ambush yourself with on your 1st off-road outing in the woods, so don't forget your sarnies! :-) I grew up with land rovers
Thanks for sharing this cool test! How would this Land Rover do with a light plastic fan bolted in place. I have an extremely original ‘72 MGB with overdrive. The engine has about 88hp with the twin HIF carbs, but no air pump. I’d like to see how much could be saved around 3200 RPM when on the Interstate.
@@gilesgreenaway5655 dinky little fans on sedans don't need that much power but the big fans need for larger vehicle's do. as for the alternator sure a stock one wont pump out that power and aftermarket one or a dual/trip set up will and if you use a massive fan with a stock alternator your just gonna drain your battery. not a problem in cold - mild climates when hardly working where the fan will be intermittent but hot climates or a hard-working vehicle where the fan will be on for a vast majority of the time if not continuously then you have a problem. its why hard working vehicles like Landcruisers still use a mechanical fan just with a viscous clutch giving the best of both worlds pure mechanical efficiency but able to freewheel when its not needed to reduce load. also most cars with electric fans rely heavily on the fact they move around fast, and the air is forced through the fan is really only there for when stopped and idling hard working vehicles like a Landcruiser or the Land Rover in the video are designed knowing they will be worked hard at low speed where there is little to no air flow from forward movement thus they need powerful fans to brute force the air through and when the vehicles are at speed the air flow will provide most of the cooling and since the fan no longer has to brute force the air through the load it is reduced alot if he had the dyno fan that simulates air flow at speed he would have seen much less load taken up by the fan.
If you have it on a temp switch like mine it should only kick on in traffic and be off the rest of the time. It will be pulling power mostly from the battery not from engine. I don't think I would be able to measure it on the dyno.
@@ThisWeekWithCars That'd only be true if it had a dynamo, and the engine was at tickover - then, yes, the fan would pull juice from the battery. But with an alternator, once the engine's started, the alternator's higher voltage powers all the electrics - at tickover you should hear a tiny drop in engine revs when the fan kicks in (and more if you turn on the headlights and other electrical load). As you say, though, questionable whether you could pick that up on the dyno...
, no, the electric fan will draw power from the alternator, which will decrease engine power significantly more than the fixed fan does. Your video also ignores the benefit of ram air from the vehicle’s motion reducing blade angle of attack at high speed. LR put fixed fans on these early vehicles because it was the most reliable AND the most efficient method of getting air through the rad in the typical conditions they faced.
I’ve had an electric fan on mine for several years. Most of the time the fan is not needed and it only switches on in heavy traffic or hill climbing. Benefits are faster warm up, less noise and 22mpg. The fixed fan is not necessary in temperate climates.
If your motor doesn't turn enuff rpm to start producing horsepower then how can it lose horsepower...it's running on torque.....and the fans just doing its menial job...course there's always an LS waiting...
When you run the car on the rolling road at 60 or 70 you need a fan to cool the radiator, simulating the car travelling through the air at that speed. Otherwise the electric fan fitted will operate and the alternator will absorb a similar amount of power from the engine in order to run that fan. In other words you are simply replacing one load (the mechanical fan) with another (the alternator providing power for an electric fan)
And car alternators are not very efficient, although the duty cycle of the electric fan should be low except at sustained high speed cruising or heavy towing etc.
Not the way to measure the power used by the fan. Far far to many variables and a very inconsistent old vehicle.some people are coming up with rediculous conclusions.
Why not diagnose and sort out the causes of lost engine power before losing originality with an electric fan ? There should be around 67 mighty peak bhp, not a miserable 42.