Water is the most important thing on a train - let's measure how it's used. Merch: hyce.creator-s... Join my discord: / discord Become an ES&D Train Crew Member and get extra perks! / @hyce777
Measuring the gallons is simple. Just grab a gallon jug, fill it up, dump it into the tender, then repeat 2800-3200 times. Just don't lose count so you don't have to start over. Should only take a couple of days.
As much of a joke this is it is really tis simple. But perhaps using a water metering device instead, like those used for municipal water. Or get a tanker truck that can meter the amount to fill it up.
No joke, but I have done that in the production industry. However, a flow meter is nicer than a jug. Also, make a chart, the volume per unit of distance can vary greatly depending on the shape of the tank. Edit: It also rarely takes days. I once calibrated the volume sensor on a 5 thousand liter bioreactor in around 3 hours. And the water hose weren't that massive. And stopping every 250 liters to make a proper chart, since bio reactors have all sorts of whacky equipment inside taking up space.
When I was in Poland and in the cab of the Pt47-65, I noticed that the tender had an indicator of how much water was in it, so I took a note of it. We left with 36 cubic meters of water (full). The route is about 45 km with about 10 stops between Wolsztyn and Leszno, the locomotive was pulling two passenger cars. Going forward and back (so, about 90km), the locomotive used about 14 cubic meters of water. Starting cutoff was 60%, then it was reduced to about 40% when the train got up to speed. Also, there is an easy way to measure how much water fits in the tender - drain it, then fill it with a hose and have a water meter hooked up to it. No fancy math required.
Hey Hyce, I have a cursed train that might be of interest to you. 1989’s Beyond the Door 3 is a horror movie filmed in and around Belgrade Serbia. The main portion of the movie takes place on a train, a steam train. A Yugoslavian Railways Class 20 mogul was used in said film. They modified it to look more sinister, they added smoke deflectors to the smokebox and made them look like devil-ish horns, and also added a European styled plow to the buffer beam. Without those mods, it looks completely harmless lol. I would recommend looking at it, because I know you’ll go, WTF is this s***
Also known as Amok Train. Or, Maximum Overdrive but it's a steam engine not a truck lol. Those Class 20's must have some insane draft to suck the whole fireman in 😆
I recently read in the book Colorado memories of the narrow gauge circle that RGS 20 apparently doesn’t have her original tender. 20 has 25’s tender which would make sense since 25 was scrapped in 1940. I’m not sure about the validity of this but it could help in determining the water capacity of 20
I think a part 2 of this needs to be done this summer in order to make a comparison between hot and cold weather. The physics side of my brain is screaming for more data to C&C in different operating conditions.
Hyce, you may have around the yard a IBC tank. That plastic cube tank in cage. They are typically 330 gals. and are one big measuring cup marked on the side. toss one on the tender and fill from the tower and measure. Thank you for showing the practical matters in steam operation. Information like this is often missing in the story of steam engines.
It's been so long now I don't remember the formula ... but when I was running #113 at GCRM in Miami, at the end of the day we calculated the oil/water ratio to see how efficiently we had run that day. The tender's water tank had a ruler painted onto the ladder, and we had a chart that gave the water capacity for each inch. The oil tank had an engraved dipstick. I also don't remember anymore what the ideal ratio was for gallons of water evaporated to gallons of oil burned, but I do remember one day breaking the efficiency record as engineer. All starting and ending measurements were checked for correctness by both engineer and fireman, so we knew all the numbers were correct. They checked my math as well. I had something like 2.5x the normal efficiency. What can I say? I had some good teachers who taught me how to for fire and run efficiently, and I taught my firemen what I was taught.
Very interesting video! Whenever I see stuff like this, i.e. modern analysis on old technology (like WWII aircraft and the like), I can only imagine how far that technology would have come if it was not replaced, for Steam by diesels, and for Aircraft combustion engines by jets and turboprops. Always interesting to think about.
Hyce - you can buy a cheap flow meter that goes on the end of a garden hose. That's how I measured a tender's capacity and marked its level gauge. Drain, fill with hose, it tells you the volume.
I think the way you could figure out 20’s water capacity is to hook up a fire hose to a fire hydrant, attach a flow meter that measures in gallons, then fill up 20’s tender using the fire hose.
Come from a N&W family and always enjoy your videos man, my niece asked me the other day with our train layout why the freight trains had “a bunch of company names all mixed in with two different kinds of locomotives” lol might be a simple topic, but if you ever wanted an idea for an interesting video maybe the intricacies of how rolling stock & locomotive power agreements work in the US would be something people would like to see! Definitely would make it easier to explain to her 😂 Anyways Keep up the awesome content my guy and happy new year!
Yet another good experiment, and a New Years treat! (And when 346 gets back in the saddle again, it would be interesting to test water usage in the little chooch!)
You are my new favorite youtuber; informational, geeky, and completely in love with your trade and topic. I'm also green with envy that you've got a bloody 1:1 scale, live steam, train set. The fact this exists delights me to no end, however, and I'm just glad SOMEONE gets to use it. Highball, Railroader. You are living the dream. So happy for you.
I know it's a pricey proposition to pull. but mayhaps 20 can take a little road trip over to a certain tourist line not terribly far away to see just how efficient she can be when given the chance to get her hooked up properly. getting a true measure of efficiency is a tad flawed when all you have is a circle of track to play on. you also mentioned that the 5 car Polar Express is close to a Tonnage Train for 20 while the same 5 cars behind 491 barely break a sweat since 491 can pull a LOT more tonnage. in short, 20's working her backside off to move those 5 cars while 491 is practically loafing along
Probably an easy way of calculating the water capacity of the tender is to empty it out completely, fill it up from the water tower and calculate the missing volume there. It's an easier shape so calculating shouldn't be too difficult.
Hey hyce, the other day at the csx yard here in my town, i saw the largest lashup of locos i have ever seen, it was 7 six-axle engines, i can remember what kinds they were. And the were all csx and hooking up to a coal train.
A good engineer would try to run with the Johnson bar as close to center as possible. One who ran with it “in the hole”, as far as possible toward the wall, would use more water and coal, and over work his fireman as well. I gleaned this info from a book entitled “Little Engines and Big Men” it’s a sort of memoir of a man who worked on the D&RG narrow gauge. If you can find it, it makes for a very interesting and very enjoyable read.
I see you must have read it I really enjoyed it and read it again, and even purchase it if I could find it again, I haven’t seen a copy in like forever. Good luck on the project, and I wish you great success. I think it should be a “must read” any enthusiast of the Colorado Narrow Gauge”.@@Hyce777
It's so nice when we get an actual explination rather than just "it depends". With the near infinate ways a steam locomotive can be ran it stands within reason that we all know they can't be 'one and done' with how they opperate. Of course you would run it differently if you were going up hill vs. down hill or on flat track, that is a given. A simple "in this instance yes" goes a long way over "dose doing X with the engine make it do Y in the here and now, well it depends. If you were to do X then the engine would do G in the there and then." We weren't asking about going down hil, we were asking about set ups to go up hill. These 101's help a lot in the understanding of how a steam train engine works and the different nuances work to make the engine do what it does. Such a better way of explaining how everything functions then constantly saying over and over again that while yes this is how you could run the engines it's not how you would run them all the time. Showing works so much better than telling.
Getting an accurate water volume measurement of the tender could be something you do next time it needs a major overhaul, so that you have to dry it out anyway, and you could take proper measurements.
This is my first time ever posting a comment on a video. And I wanted to say I love watching mark with the trains but your best work is on the 3/4 of an idiot series!! When are you going to make more they are so entertaining and informative at the same time! And the fruiting just makes me laugh!
hose with a flow gauge or a water meter would give accurate enough information if filling from a hose like at IRM. If drawing down water from a tank shut off the supply from full and see how much the level drops and calculate from those numbers.
Hi Mark, this was a great and easily understandable explanation of boiler water usage. Also illustrative, as you say, of the importance of using the Johnson bar to achieve steam efficiency. After all, conserving steam and thus water usage is the name of the game. And I knew the answer to your superheater question. Only because you (and Dusty) have discussed this before. See what you’ve taught us, this pupil is steadily learning. Loved the look see inside the tender too. As always Professor your 101 tutorials are like going to engineering school. Many thanks for this latest episode, looking forward to the next, and cheers to you!
As you talked about Mallard vs the S1. Can you talk about locomotive speed 101 next cause i wanna know how fast can each locomotive go from standard gauge and narrow gauge
@@Hyce777 Well I guess I'm the only one that wants to know the locomotive speeds like the speed limits on grades, curves and straight tracks and also top locomotive speed like how fast does a steam engine or a diesel go. I guess I had explain that to myself for my future RU-vid videos 🤷♂️
Look at the terrain that Narrow Guage roads ran. They were used mostly in mountainous areas where straight and level wasn't possible. Most of the Rio Grande was mountains except around Alamosa for their narrow Guage. These road grades were akin to graded gravel roads just above jeep trails and wagon roads. Speed wasn't the primary factor, just getting there was.
I love your 101 videos. I found your channel in early 2022 with your Air Brakes 101. I was trying to learn as much as I could before running the GM EMD E-8A locomotive at the Southern California Railway Museum. Your 101 videos have the kind of content I wanted to know as a kid but couldn't find in any books.
There are two more or less simple ways to find the capacity of the tender: Empty the tender more or less completely. Then 1. weigh it and fill it up with water; weigh it again or (even simpler): 2. fill it with water while measuring the volume (using the same method your city does to calculate your water consumption) because one liter of water is approx 1 kg, you can then calculate the volume and weight.
Or maybe contact the s city they usually have a portable water meter they use to charge contractors for wat use out hydrants many you guys could make something work for water tower
@@Hyce777 Can the tenders be lifted? Mobile crane, large A-frame lifting implements or other lifting equipment with a weight cell. Some forklifts has that as part of their equipment package too. You "just" need air under the wheels and you've got your measurements. Ask around, someone there might know someone who has or knows someone else who has equipment to help you. Another suggestion is a flowmeter on the water supply line, you can get readings on flow per minute and most programs has calculations included in for total or session volume delivered. There gotta be a automation technician or engineer around you somewhere closer than me.
@@Hyce777 Since you appear in the video to be filling the tender from a cylindrical trackside tank, wouldn't it be pretty simple to just use your measuring stick to see how far the water in the tank dropped?
Hey Hyce, I was playing Derail Valley and found that when my brake pads were overheating going downhill, I could throw the steam loco in reverse to slow down. Would that trick work in a real steam loco, or would you break it?
For comparison with a UK mainline steamer, Tornado manages 100 miles on 6 000 imp. gal. (27 000 litres) with a margin of safety in reserve. I believe they're targeting a bit under this with the P2 (88 miles quoted, from memory), but that's our ballpark. Guessing once you've got the superheater up to temperature on the mainline at high speed you really get the efficiecy gains they afford. Unsure how this compares to the mainline US standard gauge locos with their 20 000+ gallon capacities, though back in the day many railways(roads) on both sides of the pond did use water troughs. We don't have huge narrow gauge networks though so the comparison may not be identical.
I was thinking the reason the consumption of water was so similar was that the steam generated consistent power and, therefore, the difference was the weight of the locos
I would love a video someday on how American narrow gauge locos all seem to be bigger than contemporary UK standard gauge, and how late 19th century UK narrow gauge locos all seem to be the size of a crossover SUV.
Also ,need to consider 491 is a much more modern locomotive than 20 . 491 also , on your tiny railroad ,is "Barely" working . hence ,Johnson bar remains nearly vertical . That alone tells the story . The Weight of 491 with horizontal momentum is also a factor . Id Bet the Boiler on 491 is ALSO more Efficient . My Grandfather was an Engineer on NYC Niagara's back in the day . Those Locomotives were "Highly" efficient compared to Locomotives of the late 19th century . Great Video ! Keep UP the Amazing detailing stories !!
I was going to post my theory with an allegory from the marine world but you kinda did it for me. You can take a boat and put 200hp motor on it, and then take the same boat and put a 300hp motor on it, and their efficient cruise will be almost identical- because it takes about the same amount of work(horsepower ) to push a boat through the water efficiently. The difference is the boat with the 300hp will be working a lot less and stressing the parts a lot less. It takes X amount of work to pull that train up the hill, and work is done by steam, which is done by water…. It makes sense why a smaller locomotive has to use the same amount of water as the bigger locomotive
I know this isn't relevant to the topic at hand, but has the idea of 491 temporarily visiting her old stomping grounds been passed around since the eventual return of 346 or am I one of the many silent few who've had this thought take up space in the back of my brain? Also really great explanation video
brings up a whole new idea on things to test, what's the actual steam temps on 491? would be very interesting to see what it actually gets up too after the super heaters.
Maybe using an inline water meter on a garden hose to fill up 20’s tank??? A 4gpm garden hose would take a while but if you leave it run in the shop for a couple days it would be viable…
You know, I was never really 'into trains' much. Then I found your channel and you make it actually interesting. Thanks for that...I've learned a LOT, plus I'm going to start showing these to my son who's 9. He's a big science and engineering geek so he should get a big kick out of your channel :) Thanks for the amazing videos, and keep up the awesome work!
How do they prevent the water from freezing in extreme cold? Like in the steam engine that part is obvious (just don't let the fire go out) but those large water tanks you fill from. . . how do they prevent the water in there from freezing? Do they have a electric heater? I assume back in the day that would be a coal fire or something? So I guess they used to have smokestacks too? I'm guessing there's some sort of pump mechanism to elevate the water up that high also, right? Back in the day that would be a steam powered pump pumping from well water, right? Did you do a video where you talk about the water supply tanks yet?
I was going to mention yesterday on the Stream when you talked about this video, that 491 would have been my guess for the more efficient choo choo. It just isn't working hard at all.
"and calculating it is harder than you think." -13:40 In the production industry one usually don't calculate the volume of tanks. There can be all sorts of things making calculating things a true pain. The easier (and often faster) solution is to drag out the measuring stick and a garden hose with a flow/volume meter. Sometimes one can go even more manual and simply count buckets. From there one just makes a chart, where one simply notes down how much water were needed for every X distance of depth. This will inherently account for all sorts of whacky tank designs that one can imagine.
@@Hyce777Accurate tank volume would only really matter when measuring engine water consumption. But for regular day to day operation a rough idea and a healthy safety margin goes a long way. There is also one more way to measure the volume, and that is the weigh the car before and after filling it. This can likewise be taken in steps if one wants to chart it. However, I suspect that "just weighing a train car" is far easier said than done. (though, portable train scales are apparently a thing, perhaps that makes it a bit easier.)
Hi Hyce, I don't know how often it's going to come up that you need to film yourself in the dark, but for like 10 bucks and no appreciable weight penalty in your pocket you can get a diffuser or softbox that fits on the end of a camera flash unit like a speedlite, which would probably just fit over the end of your flashlight and give you diffuse Hollywood lighting in any environment.
wouldnt a simple solution to the question of how large the water tank is on the tender be to calculate the water in the tower before and after filling the tender up from dry? I mean there is a bit of geometry math there with the whole cylinder plus cone shape, but i would think that would be the easiest way to do it, even if the tender's tank is larger than the tower's. Unless the tower has the same crossbars inside of it..
so its fairly simple to get a count on the size of the water tank run her low pump it dry and use a flow metered hose to fill the tank back up you can get it down to a plus or minus 100 gallons depending on he empty the tank is and how much you fill it up to
Another cool video, glad I came across your channel. Very fascinating, lots to learn:) Thanks for sharing Hyce, I subscribed. And Happy new year to you too
From a physics standpoint, a specific amount of weight will require an exact amount of work to move a distance. That being said, transporting roughly the same weight the same distance should consume the same amount of steam. Any amount above the theoretical minimum comes down to efficiency, friction losses, and the driver. A larger steam engine can extract more work out of the same volume of steam, but at the cost of more fuel.
I'd also imagine that there's other physics involved like the heavier train retaining more momentum because of the heavier weight. Though that could be offset by the other end of physics, it takes more power to overcome the heavier inertia of no motion. Then there's looseness of tolerance in the chests that would allow more bypass steam on the older unit compared to the "newer" unit. Either way it's a interesting mathematic question. For measuring the tender capacity there's two ways to go about it. One is completely drain and dry clean out the tender then weigh it without any water or coal in. Then fill the water tank to capacity and weigh again. The difference between the two weights is the water. After that it's just division of weight of a gallon of water into the weight of the full tender. I think that's how to arrange that equation. Next would be less precise, but empty the tender. Refill it from known capacity liquid totes. If figuring each tote held 500 gallons you'd have a ballpark answer without having to fill it through a metering nozel.
Couple of options if you *really* need/want to know the volume of the space. Bring it over to the water tower dry, towed by a diesel, and fill the unit. Measure the change in volume in the water tower, which should be much easier to calculate. Alternatively, pump the water in with a flow meter. If you guys have a scale, thats accurate enough, you could also weigh the locos pre and post watering. If you guys are feeling particularly wasteful, you could also fill it and dump it, and then measure the dumped water. Might be less wasteful if you can get it into the water tower a second time. But my question is, with the big choochoo being so much more efficient with steam, why did it take so much more coal?
Classical inexperienced ”Well why don’t you just… ” -esque take coming up: Why don’t you just empty out the tender, then fill it up all the way and measure how much water is added from empty? Maybe by counting volume from the tower or weighing it on a scale (assuming there is one)?
It was nice to take peek into 20's tender, to get to see the baffling and bracing; knew that was a thing to help keep the tenders more stable and stronger, especially when under motion. Do want to ask: how does the baffling and bracing effect 491's tender cistern issues (since you've mentioned it leaks a number of times)? If you don't fully know or need to look into more, that's ok.
The tender holds water too? i didn't know that. I thought the tender only held coal or whatever was used for fuel it's kinda hard to know for a normal person since diesel engines well don't have a tender car
Could you calculate the flow rate of the water tower filling the tender and just count how many seconds it takes to fill up. No need to know tender size. Just fill her up to the same spot as full
Now how about different technologies for filling up the water tanks.... I remember that there was some express trains that filled up from a trough between the rails when running at speed, but haven't seen much about it beyond that. Surely there were other special ways to fill the along with the standard water tower.
I don't understand how coal consumption and water consumption can not be directly linked. I'd expect a linear relation between the two yet you implied that one locomotive used much more coal than the other while using, comparatively, a lower ratio of water/coal. Please explain.
Interestingly, this implies that if you got 491 to fully superheat, which would happen when she was in service, she actually might use less water than 20 to haul the same train.
i imagine that back in the day, they got the water from lakes, ponds and rivers etc... did they filter it, clean it? and how so?.. i mean.,, i have grabbed my share of water from open sources and there is always sediment dirt etc in the water.. naturally. and would that cause issues?
I'm wondering something hyce. Watching old videos, you mentioned you worked with Sound Transit - Curious - do you know why they used concrete for guard railing on the light rail? I found that interesting.
