Joe: so I like pizza, do you like pizza. Neil: pizza is a state of mind, it’s a form of being, having a pizza is just a way of making yourself be in that state of mind. You ever heard the saying you are what you eat? Well when you eat pizza, it breaks down and becomes you. You are a state of pizza. Bonus points if you read that in Neils voice
@@richardeldridge8335 There's facts, objective value, and evidence and those are ALWAYS more important than feelings, beliefs, and opinions. A new better telescope is of objective value to the entire world, the maintaining of a "sacred site" is of subjective value to a tiny group of people. It's obvious that one of those options is far superior, both practically and ethically, to the other.
@@Archaneus They're important to you, not to them. Nobody has any obligation to put the same value on something that you do. That being said, this is not a science issue. It's a commerce issue. They can build the telescope somewhere else. They can even put it in orbit. But they want to put it in Hawaii.
@@godless-clump-of-cells he's pasionate but he also loves hearing himself for hours without anyone contributing to it. He hates conversations, he love to monolog
This notion that Rogan "always interrupts his guests" is blown out of proportion. Clearly from people who only watch a handful of episodes. I've been listening since Eddie Bravo had long hair. Of course in the thousands of hours he's talked he's interrupted people now and then, then again, so have all of us. But for the most part he prefers to simply shoot questions and let his guests ramble on. This is specially true when he likes the guest or simply find them interesting.
As a US Marine, I trained at the Pahakuloa Training Area in the mountains of the Big Island. The nights were the most spectacular I have ever seen, and we weren't as high as the telescopes.
When you host a podcast it's your job to try and get the guest to talk. No matter how Joe feels personally about being cut off. He's probably really happy with how engaged he got his guest to be. I am however happy to see people waking up to the fact that NDT has always been a cunt. We're all children who love to learn about space. And he's been a figure who could deliver that to us. On his shows he normally keeps it pretty chill. Probably because he's trying to do right by his late mentor. However, his actual personality has always been shitty and contradictory, and holier than thou. Granted he would beat me in a math a thon. And he knows the names of more stars than I do. But he also gets into other people's face about economics, art, religion, culture, philosophy, literature. And he brings the same "I am the smart person" attitude to all those topics even when he clearly has no clue what he's talking about. He's this weird mix of actually smart about one thing. Ignorant about a lot more. But not smart enough to realise that because of how much fame we've given him. He's over rater and I'm glad people are figuring it out.
@@Siberial I couldnt have put it better myself. He's smart thats for sure. A genius? no not exactly. He's intelligent in his own field, which btw he is a lot more a educator than a researcher, he memorize more than he discover, but that aside, in a lot of other fields such as social, art..etc he can be pretty dumb.
Don't ever, for any reason, do anything to anyone for any reason ever, no matter what, no matter where, or who, or who you are with, or where you are going, or where you've been... ever, for any reason whatsoever... Neil deGrasse (Michael Scott)
Did any of you actually WATCH the podcast?! Joe is visibly frustrated with how much neil interrupts him. Its embarrassing, and if you wanna preserve your memory of NDS you should probably skip it.
Listening to this podcast, I can't help but imagine what it would be like to have Carl Sagan on and what a contrast it would be for that very reason; calm, collected, humble, respectful to Joe's questions and/or lack of knowledge, actually thinking before answering, being clear and concise with his answers. NDT has become the complete opposite of that and I think it's due to his fame, the brand of his name and the inflation of his ego. This podcast was rather frustrating.
Fairwarning 007 Really..? I enjoyed listening to this conversation. They’re where both excited at times but there’s nothing wrong with that. Tyson in general brings interesting facts and great point of view to the table and he was the guest here.
@@antonihardonk8970 Neil does bring interesting facts and topics to the table, I'm not disputing that. However, he was a little overbearing this time around to say the least, in my opinion and many others opinion as well; talking over Joe, interrupting him numerous times and getting somewhat defensive when Joe questioned him on gravity. You can clearly see Joe was getting frustrated with him everytime he would get interrupted. But that's fine if you enjoyed it though. There were certainly parts I enjoyed. Idk, maybe Neil had too much coffee or smoked too much before the podcast.
Me: Mr. Tyson, so ima pass this class with a B right? Neil: If you perceive yourself as only B person in this society, then you are feeding your own Self Fulfilling Prophecy of your limits and wont push the boundaries of your thinking. Me: Coo so ima pass with a B
Even though you're joking, that attitude is actually real and very common in America. Our youth do not value education and they dont wish to do their best. Mediocrity is acceptable now because everyones a winner
Because Joe is an intellectual neanderthal. Tyson's principle of "value" is correct, but Joe simply cannot comprehend them. We value driving, so we put up with 36K deaths/yr. We value the practice of medicine-250K malpractice deaths per year. If we valued climbing Everest enough, we'd find "out of the box" solutions to remove the bodies/trash. It's not about money, these climbers are filthy rich. Like so many other apes, he cannot fathom solutions, it's just "we can't". Many Americans DON'T value individual freedom/liberty because they take it for granted. Mass shootings could have an "out of the box" solution, but NO ONE is open to it., and is why they have no issues with banning firearms.
This is exactly what is being done. In 2017 the State of Hawaii Board of Land and Natural Resources revised the telescope's build permit with a series of conditions, including the removal of 3 telescopes from Mauna Kea as well as asserting that TMT will be the last telescope built there.
The other telescopes aren’t that big and don’t take up a lot of space. We’re talking about a thirty meter telescope (TMT) and the amount of land that it’ll need to move for the structure is over 5 acres. That’s almost 4 football fields in size.
@@SimpleTanks The TMT will not pollute the aquifer system, watershed or local water supply. That's a myth. The TMT is not drilling into the aquifer system or tapping into Lake Waiau. It's a cloosed loop system where all waste drains into a double hulles waste container; all waste is transported off the mountain for offsite processing and treatment. The observatory is being built on top of a specific lava rock plain to protect the aquifer system. Also, based on geochemistry, if you were to dump a gallon of oil on the summit, it would take 2,000 - 5,000 years for the contaminants to reach the water table and drinking supply. Why? TMT is about 13,600 ft above sea level in an alpine desert ecosystem that gets very little precipitation AND there are thousand of feet of rock between it and the watershed. In addition, modern telescopes have gotten rid of many hazardous and toxic chemicals from their design. So, no, the TMT is not a threat to the watershed.
The protest happens because the natives are trying to let people know that this land was taken illegally after being recognized as an independent country by our past kings. It’s like how Crimea was annexed by Russia. Hawaii was annexed. Not only was the land taken from us but it’s getting hard for us to survive on our own land. Just putting it out there. JRE is still my favorite podcast!!!!!! I fckn love JRE!!!!
There's no comparison between Hawai'i and Crimea. After 127 years, there hasn't been a single U.S. or international court decision that has ruled that Hawai'i was 'illegally' annexed. The independence activists (secessionists) done even have a REAL case. It's all wishful thinking. Hawai'i had requested protectorate status on three different occasions: Great Britain (King Kamehameha, 1800s), United States (King Kamehameha III, 1851), and Japan (King Kalākaua). Hawai'i had requested annexation by the United States on three different occasions: King Kamehameha III (1854), Provisional Government (1893), and Republic of Hawaii (1898). The Republic of Hawaii requested annexation and the United States accepted the offer. Hawaii's Legislature unanimously accepted, approved and followed the terms of annexation. The U.S. annexed Hawai'i with the Newlands Resolution. It was ratified with a TWO THIRDS majority by BOTH the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives, which is stronger approval than the requirements of even a treaty.
I don't really agree at all since I believe it was a misrepresentation of statistical data, and Neil being a scientist trying to create a narrative with ignoring some information and including others was really astounding to me because I believe scientists have an obligation not to change the data to fit their narrative. There was also a few other reasons, though that was definitely the biggest one for me.
Cant think of name Yeah why can’t you? You can rebuild that building not sure you can rebuild a geological site. Earth took millions of years to form one and the other was built by hairless apes!
@@MasteIsIllmatic A historical building has ownership at high value being fragile and is painstakingly built, is in a generally populated area that can be policed, are almost always straight vertical and are supseptable to losing tiles bricks and other falling debris off in areas that are not meant to be pulled. A sturdy rock that hasn't budged in a few million years thats in a mostly unpopulated place shouldn't be trespassed and isn't even enforceable to a person climbing. Nobody's going to shut down the grand canyon, a far better comparison I must say, because a couple climbers trashed the place and thats a natural wonder of the world.
@@cantthinkofnameyeah7249 Smart guy. once humans get their hands on it. They will destroy it. They can and will blow a hole through it and create a tunnel. They will build all types of shit on it if they get a chance. Are you really going to act like we haven't changed the landscape of the earth before? smh
Neil Tyson and Jeremy Clarkson need to talk about cars and space and see who lowers their voice more out of sheer excitement. Neil will say uuuunnnnivers ! And Jeremy will say jaagggggggg. And so fourth .
@John Edward you need a brain scan, if youre going to label people just because they speak their minds, then you already lost... keep on labeling you cry baby.
@John Edward we're tired of cancel culture and look at what ya'll tried to dave chappelle yous tried to cancel him and that shit failed so fuck you PC, cancel culture and sensitive people out there 😂😂
Screw Everest. At that point might as well build it on the moon. No atmosphere for better images and no one to complain when you build a 100 meter reflector telescope.
TMT & Mauna Kea have become a proxy war for the larger conflict over native Hawaiian entitlements including sovereignty. Reminds me of the occupation of Alcatraz from '69 to '71. I suspect that resolving the TMT question will be necessary, but insufficient for the activists.
I agree completely, a lot of people are unaware of how important it is for indigenous people to have sovereignty. I personally want indigenous people to run environmental politics because they hsve the most respect and care for nature.
JAS PDX definitely not a proxy war. The mountain has been sacred to my people for millennia. They want to dig a hole in it the size of an nfl stadium at the height of 180 feet tallest structure on our island. That’s illegal by all our current rules both size and the fact it’s in a conservation zone. Now is that the only thing the state has done against Hawaiians of course not so damn right we’re pissed.
Entitlement? Really fuck you and your bloodline you fuck our people were illegally overthrown in a way we had no understanding of out land was stripped from us because we were a peaceful people who didnt believe in money, our queen was kidnapped and land stolen. You are the one who feels entitled to our land
@@hoku8089 Well I could be wrong . I have heard there was a vote. I also heard the protests where because people who lost their homes weren't paid as they should of been. That was a long time ago . The Natives should have no say in what is done with US land . It isnt theirs anymore and hasnt been for a long time . They are not entitled to anything any other citizen isnt. The paperwork has gone through. It was approved . Time to move on .
Tyson: "by the way wanna know how islands form" Rogan (giving absolutely zero fuvks) "🙄sure" Tyson: "blah blah" Rogan: "so anyway, the natives hate ya guts"
DGT can be an annoying, arrogant, douchebag, but by god he can be inspirational. His calmness, his convictions, his love for what he does and eloquence in this video brought tears to my eyes.
@@ExtremeTG outrageous allegation, absolutely racist to your core. He might identify as a slim but not anorexic but still curvey Chinese women and your up in here accusing him of all sorts of Nastiness! HOW DARE YOU!!
#ndt and his arrogantly over inflated ego constantly contributing on subjects he has no idea about is becoming as clear to #jre as it has to the rest of us
If I was a native, I would not want to hear the argument of any non native. Trusting non-natives in any capacity has never turned out well so I would vote solely based on native information.
I get the benefits of the telescope being built but I agree with the idea of letting the natives decide if the telescope should be built after being informed about the proper information. There needs to be respect shown for their culture and land
I can relate to what Joe said about a dark sky. I live in Australia, we still have a lot of dark skies away from the big cities. When I met my current partner about 20yrs ago we went for a weekend away in the bush. Around midnight I noticed there was no moon so I talked her into taking a half hour drive away from the small town motel to a picnic ground in the middle of nowhere. I turned off the car lights and we talked in pitch black for about 15 minutes to acclimatise our eyes before we got out of the car and looked up. After the initial "WOW!" and "OMG!" she choked up and said "I'm 40 years old and I never knew this was here".
The reason mountain tops are sacred to begin with is because people would go to the top of them, look up, and wonder "wtf is with all this?". Not much has changed in that respect.
Hawaiians don't need those fucking mountains, their religion don't exist. Get the fuck over it you primitive island fucks. We're trying to advance human knowledge, fuck your traditions and culture in the face of that.
@@ambermasso1226 No. Fuck those 'sacred' mountains. I live on planet earth too, do I get to claim the mountains my ancestors lived by and stop anyone from doing business there??
Neil seems really tired or irritated. I hope he is doing ok and not getting worn down by his responsibility to spread knowledge and not getting worn down by the current culture of outrage at facts. Keep your head up Neil we do appreciate your time.
I didnt watch the entire podcast. Did Neil smoke or is he just trying suuuper hard not to word his statement in a way that will upset ANYONE. Coulda been either.
What's happening is and there's a reason Neil is keeping joe quiet is this. The Native Hawains are horribly horribly racist. I'm not joking. Ask anyone who has been to hawaii or been out there for a while, native hawaiins hate your ass. They tend to be poor and live off tourist money and scraps. So any time they can hustle non natives for cash they do it. The telescope is just them doing that. Everyone knows it's going to be built, no one is offended, they just want more money. It's really not that complex but no one can just come out and say it because the natives would flip out for someone calling them out on their shit. That's all it is, some natives making up some magic bullshit history trying to get cash from dumb guilty white people.
A F why do you keep saying that in every comment. It’s over generalizing and diminishes the argument to simple pettiness. Iv never met any of these natives and you can bet I would never walk into their native land and willingly think of them as purely racist and greedy people. That’s like if a Muslim in Pakistan told another that every white person in the US hates them. Or if a white person said every black persimmon the south side of town is just stupid and only wants to rob you. That kind of over generalizing has been used for all of human history and more likely than not always leads to some stupid conflict because people are to lazy to see the nuance in a culture. I know it’s super difficult to detach the people from a POSSIBLE observation of a certain behavioral trend. It just becasue Iv seen a bunch of white people be racist on the internet and at times in person, doesn’t mean that every white person innately has this prejudice mindset. Far from it. Slight prejudice? Sure but everyone has that, but people innocent people get killed all the time because some nutjob thinks over generalizing an entire group of people is a productive way to think. Shooting in El Paso Texas? You can bet that guy had over generalized the Hispanic culture and thought killing innocent members of this culture was a good idea. Everytime a police officer knowingly targets a young African American male despite not evidence of any wrong doing? Over generalizing the African American community as criminals by default. Every time a hear a black peer call a white person racist because that white person happened to say the n word in a song? Over generalizing white people as racists by default. Now I’m not completely discounting the actual substance of your argument. I don’t doubt the natives are in some way prejudice against any foreigners and there’s always someone in a community wanting money, but the way you presented it is not only a dangerous mindset to have, but it’s also just illogical by default. There’s a reason guilty by association isn’t allowed in our courts. It’s because it’s dumb and a lazy thing to do. Bring me some sources that support your claim. Possibly a few anecdotal pieces though that’s far from reason enough to completely agree. In short. Quit saying this shit.
@@neondiddle2039 I'm not reading that shit. Why would think I'm reading all that shit? Are you that stupid you'd think I'd read all that insane shit? Listen, I lived there for years, that's just how it is. Listen to the Lars hamilton/gabriella reece interviews. Everyone talks about it but don't want to say it out right. Native Hawaiins are racist as fuck and will hustle any non native hawaiin for every penny they can. If you aren't a native hawaiian on certain Islands they will kill you for coming to the island without permission which is never given and, bury your ass and you'll never be found. It's not like the States on the continent. It's hawaii, fucking idiot.
@@AF-sb3jk It isn't bad in the tourist areas. But if you go to areas where there are pretty much only locals (places towards the end of the road to Hana) and you're white, you get called Howlie and can very easily get the shit beaten out of you. Like something that wouldn't be considered rude or a 'slip-up' anywhere else could easily get a few big dudes on your ass. Hawaii is one of my favorite places, but don't go outside of the tourist areas and think you're just someplace in the US. Treat it like you're a respectful visitor leaving it nicer than when you left and you'll be fine. If you think you're tough, you'll have some big mother fuckers to show you otherwise.
I'm sure we can have both, knucklehead. Edit: For the record, If they build it, cool, if they don't cool... This surely can't be the only spot on earth suitable for a telescope.
To someone who was born in Hawaii, Neil and Joe come across as uniformed on this issue. Native Hawaiians are unlike Native American tribes. Hawaiians were ruled by a monarchy 100 years (constitutional monarchy for 50 yrs) before the overthrow. So there is no tribal authority to decide who is qualified to vote on this issue. Less than 1% of all Hawaii residents practice the Native Hawaiian religion. Letting such a small minority vote on the telescope is anti-democratic. Let everyone in the state vote. That seems the most fair.
bloddy Americans , you just don't get it, imposing your values on minorities with different values IS the problem & has always been the problem that you seem incapable of recognising
why would I agree to people who don't understand my culture voting on wether I can practice my values or not, it's ridiculous. culture & religion are different but would you have a vote on each Christian church's practices within their chapels?
@@taramauroa So you are saying only Hawaiians should vote? Or only those that practice the Hawaiian religion? Without a tribal authority, how do you decide who is Hawaiian enough? For the record, if the pope opposed the building of a telescope in Rome, because Catholics feel all of Rome is sacred, I'd say all romans should vote on that too.
He made the arguement that people's religion trumps the public good. That a person declaring that a plot of land is 'sacred' can give them control of that land.
Tyson, “Telescopes are the same now as they were originally, they collect light.” Good to know that radio telescopes collect em waves in the visible light spectrum.
José Darío E. L., so you’ve clumped the entire e.m. spectrum into the small fraction that is light? Here’s a hint, i.r. and u.v. aren’t light; but are forms of e.m. waves.
They have alternative sites for the telescope. They may not be quite as good, but they are acceptable - that's why they were chosen as alternative sites (Canary Islands - 1st alt). Hawaiians don't have an option of choosing or building a new sacred site. The natives have been told each time that this will be the last observatory (13 now I think). Then the scientists keep coming back and saying they need one more. Now the natives are finally saying enough is enough. The design for TMT is something like a huge 18 story building the size of a sports arena/stadium. Mauna Kea to Hawaiians is like the Vatican to Catholics. Would the Catholics let the scientists build in the Vatican?
I climbed Ularu back when I was 12.... don’t think I’d do it again knowing what it means to the Aboriginal people now. At the time I saw it as something natural and I climbed it with respect and admiration. It is a special place. Sorry if I interrupted anyone in the comments section 😎
brad the earthling Let's imagine there's a big rock in Germany and some of the people that can trace their lineage to that region for a very long time have some spiritual beliefs about the bloody big rock , they believe people shouldn't climb it because it goes against their beliefs, now let's say there's a group of people born in Germany but their ancestors lived elsewhere some from Asia and some from Africa and they'd like to climb the bloody big rock , should they respect the beliefs ?
Aron Lane I see your point... but even Stone Henge is roped off now... different circumstances but many people tend to be assholes. sometimes it’s just important to act like less of an asshole. That’s it. If that means taking breathtaking photos from the ground instead of climbing it, that’s something I can handle. Others won’t, that’s up to them. Go team asshole. There are other places near by Ularu that are better “climbs” anyway. I’d love to travel to Germany one day by the way 😎👍 Cheers.
No. No it's not. Colonialism and Imperialism happened due to natural human flaws such as immoral greed and unnatural lust for power ETC... combined with one side having vastly different weapons than the other side. These issues are the long term symptoms of recent colonialism and imperialism, and nothing similar to them CAUSED the imperialism. That is preposterous. Also Colnialism and Imperialism have existed LONGER THAN WRITTEN HISTORY and WITHOUT CESATION for the entire history of humanity. The whole concept of White people having been historically dominant is silly and giving white people waaaay more credit than they deserve. The truth is WASP/Western European being the "elite" is a relatively new development in history. A thousand years ago it was White Europeans that were leading terrorist attacks on THE EAST (aka Crusades) ostensibly to spread Christianity... but really just because The Caliphates had most of the wealth and power, the most advanced science and mathematics, they held military dominance within Europe and were practically surrounding it at their peak of power. Meanwhile us white folk were mostly farming fields as serfs, which are just glorified slaves, living under barbarous warlord Kings who were usually only nominally Christian at first. A thousand years ago The Caliphate was The Suerpower of the era(USA now) and Western Civilization was in it's so called dark ages or the medieval period. It was Europeans who envied the East and their luxuries and led jihads(crusades). In 500 or 1000 years the reversal of cortunes could happen again. It could happen 7 times... who knows? History is loooong and impossible to be accurately assessed in real time. The more separation in time from a previous era of activity the better we can objectively judge decisions made and actions taken.
@@TrumpTrump-fo9zr I suppose that's why he thinks the natives need an explanation of the telescope and it's functions and then there were his genius ideas for waste removal on mount Everest lol. what was I thinking?
It's like not having an Environmental Impact Statement when building anything. There should have been a Cultural Impact Statement conducted as part of the planning of this telescope. This would have provided the opportunity for everyone concerned to become fully informed. Mahalo to Neil for his effort to understand the cultural significance of Mauna Kea and for expressing his understanding that the spirituality of the mountain and the quest for knowledge are both intertwined ...and each should be respected. 🤙🏾
When they started the general agreement was for a dollar a year, cause of the aloha spirit, now its changed to where some of the people are upset. The telescopes used to be pride of the Hawaiian islands.
Grant A The questions that you need to ask are: - WHO was involved in the "general agreement? - Some of WHAT people became upset? It just seems that the whole process wasn't conducted correctly or included the proper representatives of Mauna Kea. I hope the appropriate amount respect is given to the discussion. 🤙🏾
@@vincef7487 it is and you need to see who was involved. It was everyone, only now it's different. Where were you back then? Now it's cool to call them "white devils". Hmm.
I remember the makua of my hawaiiana class used to brag about the telescopes. And he showed us the videos of the endangered wildlife. Now its the opposite.
Polynesians were using the stars, the tides, and nature to navigate the largest body of water on earth. Instead of being victims, and perpetuating generational victimhood, we should grab on tight to the new age of voyaging and perpetuate wonder and awe in the discovering of what it means to be a human being.
Why is it assumed that a telescope is a bad thing for sacred ground? Stone observatories were always built in sacred places. Why should it be different with modern scopes?
Honza Lajksner all the other telescopes were protested against, this one is pretty much the straw that broke the camels back plus Hawaiians have lost land over and over
This is a huge structure. 5 floors. I don't think the telescope is the issues but the complex that comes with it It would completely alter the landscape.
I understand opposition because an oil pipeline is being run through a community. I don't understand the same type of opposition because of a large telescope.
Where you take a spot of nature and turn it into a concrete mess with a parking lot, with business hours and a security guard. It's no longer what it was before.
MSU Fan Mauna kea has 13 telescopes currently on the mauna (mountain). The TMT footprint will be about 5 acres big. Native Hawaiians have had years of oppression and this is just another example of our sacred land being abused. This telescope has the potential to ruin a major water source on that Mauna. Hawaii was illegally annexed as well.
"illegally annexed". Lol. By who's standard? That's a silly statement. Every piece of land annexed in human history would've been deemed "illegal" by the defeated party. I'm sure the Gauls deed Rome's annexation of their land, illegal too. Doesn't mean very much in this context.
I love how good speakers let sentences breath. Also appreciate he just wants them to think a bit further outside of their box and consider that maybe we are on that same path but coming from a different direction. Not to say they are wrong but to think maybe we are both right.
I agree with Neil in that if I were the Hawaiian natives, I would want the telescope for the philosophical reason he outline however neither of us are Hawaiian natives with theological beliefs and those beliefs don't require scientific proof. They only require faith, something that science doesn't allow for but in this case must accept.
Exactly. There has only really been one real protest in Hawaii for the longest time, and it’s about a telescope and science. I walk around the streets, trying to get people politically motivated about the actual ills keeping them down in Hawaii, and no one cares. No one protest any of that. it’s the easiest thing to protest about something you don’t need critical research, reading, or education about. It just has to be stories the grandma told you.
@maelstrom 412 Really? Imagine if NASA was given half the military budget for a single year, they could probably go back to the moon and get a lot of other shit done as well.
