How Savathûn BROKE Destiny's Lore }:0( | Destiny 2 Theory

Подписаться 8 тыс.

Просмотров 3 тыс.

50% 1

Become a Member to get access to perks:
/ @venextron
Join the Journey: / discord
Twitter: / venextronyt
Instagram: / venextrontheharbinger
Check out Myrzir's channel!: / @myrzir
paypal.me/Myrzir
#venextron #destiny2 #pocketinfinity

Опубликовано:

23 сен 2024

Ссылка:

Скачать:

Готовим ссылку...

Добавить в:

Мой плейлист

Посмотреть позже

Комментарии : 52

@noahjezyk 8 месяцев назад

sometimes i imagine alternate timeline where savathun is actually the villain that she was built up to be for YEARS instead of them turning her into an antihero and replacing her with another villain with no buildup whatsoever. they made it so complicated for no reason 😭

@aura6920 8 месяцев назад

I couldn’t say it better than you bro

@crossyfirezx9659 8 месяцев назад

Makes me wonder what if the whole concept of this WAS the fact that it was supposed to be alternate timelines converging of itself

@hiluminatul6750 3 месяца назад

Yeah, but at least she is still a great character. Unlike ohers, like "Calus", which they fucking ruined, like wtf

@W1ngSMC 8 месяцев назад

I feel like when Bungie did some of those behind the door firings in 2021(?) before the Activision-Blizzard sexual harassment controversy (Bungo had some of their own) some of the writing staff might have been affected. How things should have happened: - Oryx didn't need to know that she was at the Collapse. - I think Savathun should have hidden the Veil in her throne world and that could explain why the Witness fingering the Traveller didn't reveal where it was, and after it went to sleep it just couldn't interact with the Traveller to reveal its location. - The Veil could have even been used as a plot device when she was trying to steal the Traveller. It can seemingly be used to control some functions of the Traveller (open portal, move/teleport?, control ghosts?, send it into "hibernation") it's almost like the Veil is the mind while the Traveller is the body. - I think Neumuna's existence isn't that bad, but it could have been done without the Veil (just purely explained with Vex tech) with a presentable storyline OR the Veil could have moved there after WQ. Current problems: - I really don't like that the new Subjugator units or whatever they are called use Strand, it was supposed to be our thing. - Some characters are unreasonable (Savathun, Riven). They are keeping secrets even when just telling some of the stuff they know / lying about something would greatly benefit them, like: --- Riven keeping her mate's identity a secret even after we know she had eggs, and not telling that "He was actually a great guy and some of my kids might turn out not to be Faustian a**holes" straight away, when asking for our help at the start of the season. --- Savathun gambling all of existence on some dumb plot of hers without even revealing the possible consequences of her failure to us in time. - I don't get it why the Witness left the galaxy in the first place? Hopefully explained. If I were the guy, I would have set up camp somewhere closer. Speculation: - I think in the end we won't "kill" the Witness, we will just somehow "split" the minds it's made of weakening it to the level where a dreg could arm wrestle it.

@alter6243 8 месяцев назад

I want to bring up that I also hate how the Subjugator units are just mini Rhulks. Wasn’t his whole story about being the sole survivor of his race? If they are clones, why are we using this idea again? Shouldn’t they be using the same orange powers (can’t remember the name of it right now) as Rhulk originally did as well as Calus, Shadow Legion Cabal, and the Caretaker? Is that the original darkness power? Is it unique to Rhulk? The Hive mostly used Hive Magic. The power to take is another unqiue power of the Darkness. It just doesn’t have any consistency. If these powers can be so easily given, why weren’t they before? Savathun tricked Rhulk and bodied Nezarec with just hive magic. You would think teaching them stasis and other potential powers would be in the Witness’ best interest right? Especially if the Witness was so willing to give the same power that Rhulk had to Calus. Now all of the sudden he is willing to give Rhulk clones stasis and strand? Which makes no sense as the Witness should not know what strand is. The Witness views our character ONE TIME during the campaign and we aren’t even fighting. If these are subconscious ideas of the Witness like how the landscape is going to be, how did the Witness have a subconscious idea of what strand is? Or are we going to be told that he actually could see our actions from outside the portal the entire time? The carelessness for random retcons, which I am 99% sure this will be explained by, to better fit the narrative is why it is in the position it is now.

@typhir5911 8 месяцев назад

My main issue with Savathun is that she is written to be so smart that even when things aren't in her favor, they somehow still fall in such a way that she still has the upper hand in nearly all of our encounters. There is stacking the deck so that things fall in her favor, and then there is this whole everything works out just the way she wanted just because she is Savathun in the way the writers have written themselves into a corner. When she was pretending to be Osiris, she engineered our alliance with both Mithrax and Caiatl. This I actually liked, since it felt like she was trying to make us the point of her spear in her preparations to fight the Witness. But the follow up of her not stealing the Light, but rather just lucked out in that Immaru happened to find her body on a random mesa near the Traveler and was already sympathetic to the Hive and had fellow ghosts that had the same idea. This felt so wrong to me. It made much more sense for her to steal the Light given everything since Savathun's Song strike and her experimentations on the Light, or her tricking Immaru into giving her the Light instead of Immaru being "Okay, so what you're Hive. You're my guardian now because I like you guys." Even this season with the way the 15th wish worked feels completely arbitrary. You're telling me that Savathun was so precognizant that she predicted everything right up to the point of needing a wish to follow the Witness (way back during Forsaken no less), an entity that we had no idea existed prior to The Witch Queen, through a portal that was created by the Veil, which Savathun hid on Neptune from the Witness, and the Witness just so happens to discover and use to open a gate through the Traveler? Did she already know her gambit of stealing the Traveler and sealing it in her Throne World would fail? If so why do any of that? This is way beyond trickery and cunning IMO and leans into more everything happens because Savathun moved her chess piece and everything else falls into play just the way she wants it to even though deviations and changes will causes multiple permutations across the years to any calculations that even Quaria would be unable to fully calculate. The ghosts being made from the Traveler's sacrifice is still due to unreliable narration. We are told this by the Speaker in Destiny 1 and our own ghost has no real idea why it was created or why its mission was to find and resurrect a Guardian.

@Venextron 8 месяцев назад

That's a brilliant comment, and you're absolutely right about the Savathun "I knew this would happen" move that seems to always happen. As for the Ghosts being made, I think what's most important is that the concept of the Traveler sacrificing itself for Humanity is not just linked to the creation of the Ghosts, but it's a core concept in Destiny overall. Buy why were we made? Either because of the Wager between the Gardener and Winnower, or due to the Traveler's sacrifice. If the Wager is retconed, then we only existed due to the Traveler's sacrifice/dying breath. Here's the thing. Because of the whole link the Veil storyline, there is absolutely no reason for the Pyramids to destroy or cripple the Traveler. After all, they just had to get close and suppress it in LF. Savvie stealing the Veil single-handedly saved the Traveler, and contradicts WQ in being the sole reason the Black Fleet left. You might say that maybe the Traveler sacrificed itself for nothing, but remember. Since base D1, that sacrifice being what saved us has been a part of the narrative. What's more is that due to the first D2 cutscene, a cutscene in Shadowkeep, and lore in Plunder, we are told that the Traveler managed to attack the Pyramids/sacrifice itself at Earth in a way that managed to hurt the Pyramids. Therfore in my opinion, either the sacrifice happened and pushed back the Fleet, or it never happened at all. Long story short, unless the Winnower is confirmed real, I think Savvie saving the day did actually retcon the sacrifice and one of the two reasons why we were made.

@typhir5911 8 месяцев назад

@@Venextron I never liked the idea behind The Witness in the first place as it seemed to have come out of left field as this ultra big bad guy that even Savathun (our then big bad) was absolutely terrified of. The Winnower and Gardener wager story from Shadowkeep I felt fit the themes of Destiny much better. The reveal of The Witness during the Witch Queen was great, but everything after was just weirdly off putting like Bungie just made him the main focal point, but yet gave him/her/it (however you want to quantify a gestalt being like the Witness) little to no characterization. The entire character of the Witness just feels like they ran out of ideas for what the Darkness or the Winnower could be and summarized it into a singular gestalt consciousness, whom doesn't even seem to have multiple minds as all of them are focused on a single thought of nihilism according to Mara Sov this very season, making it being a gestalt being almost completely pointless. The whole Collapse bits and pieces of story that we have gotten just made less and less sense since the Warmind expansion. Not only do we have an entire pre-Collapse hidden war between Rasputin and Nokris on Mars if I recall the lore right, where Rasputin (a goddamn AI warmind, who was designed to win at war at any cost) did the completely illogical move of freezing the exiled Hive prince's forces and gigantic worm god right next to his main complex causing a stalemate, not a win; we now have Nezarec, Savathun, and The Witness with possibly Oryx, Rhulk, and Crota, (let's invite all the villains to the Collapse party and say Xivu and the Undying Mind were here too, why the heck not) all converging into the Sol System at the same time and then mysteriously all retreating into the dark space between galaxies apparently for no reason just because... Savathun stole the Veil from Nezarec so creating the link was impossible. This was why apparently the Sol Divisive Vex were tasked with attempting to make a recreation of the Veil via the Black Heart to my understanding. What doesn't make sense to me is why retreat at all even if the Traveler blasted its Light at them. It isn't like they need repairs given their numbers and they are all apparently empty, except for the one that serves as the Witness' main ship and the Witness wasn't affected by the Traveler's beam attack in the first place since he apparently parried it per Osiris. I am not even sure the Witness needs a ship, since he just sorta floats over to the Traveler at the start of Lightfall. The Traveler being disabled in the aftermath of the Collapse makes retreating even more idiotic, since they could have more easily captured and suppressed it without resistance (which was futile anyways). The pyramid fleet had us by the balls and still do. We can't damage them at all. No Golden Age (Rasputin's warsats) or Vanguard (Asher Mir's railgun, Vanguard ships) tech can even scratch the paint on a pyramid ship and we can assume that non paracausal attacks like Cabal, Neomuni, and Eliksni would most likely use would also probably be ineffective. Hell, the singularity cannon that the Awoken fired at Oryx during the Battle at Saturn only temporarily disabled his dreadnaught. It would probably be less effective against a pyramid ship. Oryx wouldn't have retreated at all. His whole thing is the Sword Logic. He would have killed every human he found or died by our hands if we proved to be stronger than him. Retreat isn't really in the Hive's lexicon, especially Xivu Arath who thrives on battle. Savathun is the only Hive who would have conceivably retreated because her whole thing is deception and lies.

@marcosreyes148 8 месяцев назад

It is very possible that Savathun found The Oxta machine and stole it from the Psions. She also infiltrated de Vex network with the help of Quria. Osiris was able to see the future where the Witness won using the prediction engines of the Vex. There are a lot of ways Savathun could have predicted that we would need to follow The Witness through the Traveler. It is not that she already knows what's gonna happen, is that she always prepares for every eventuality. She's a prepper.

@jonathandear4914 8 месяцев назад

"I am bleeding, making me the victor!!" taken seriously?

@timewaster504 6 месяцев назад

I think Savathun is a Marco Inaros like character. She is smart, and does come up with some good plans, and plenty of contingencies. But I do think a lot of her "I knew you would do this" is bluffing. Perhaps she only completed 25% of her plan, but now, that 25% was actually her whole plan from the start! Also, needing to follow the witness is a pretty good contingency, as it doesn't require much setup, only 3 conditions. 1: She looses the fight to the guardians 2: The witness makes it into the traveler. 3: Literally anyone tells the guardians she knows how to get in

@kylemccormack1785 8 месяцев назад

The only counter-argument I can think of, and it's a bit of a stretch but... there is the notion that we still don't actually know what happened. None of these lore books, least of all one from the Darkness, should be taken as reliable narration. Unveiling may not be accurate, it may be riddled with bias and conjecture. We don't know what The Collapse actually is. We've gotten hints, notions, ideas, bits and pieces, but we haven't actually SEEN a Collapse, a "Whirlwind" in person. We don't actually know what happens when there is too much Light and too much Dark in one place. Since it led to the shattering of our worlds, a mass death event and even the creation of the Distributary, it's reasonable to assume that some absolutely insane sh*t is happening during a Collapse event. We also still have almost no information about what EXACTLY Savathun actually did. Again, we have hints, bits and pieces, vague notions. We know she killed Nezzy and stole the Veil, but we have no idea how she managed to do that right under the Witness's nose. We don't have any concrete information about how she tricked the Witness and "sent him away". In other words, the stories we have about the Traveler's sacrifice might just be that - stories. A game of inter-generational telephone transferring a piece of wisdom that was wrong to begin with, passing down the idea of the Traveler's sacrifice without proper context. What the people alive at that time THOUGHT they saw, was the Traveler sacrificing itself to save humanity. But Savathun's involvement throws the exact nature and even the reality of that sacrifice into question. I otherwise agree with most of what you said here, I just don't dislike it like you appear to. Savathun is fulfilling her part as the ancient Goddess of Lies. She's not some miser with half-baked spells to entertain children. She's a living deity, self-made, she is The Lie given form. She conceals truths within fictions within truths. And she has paracausal power, which some seems to forget, has been made sharp by eons of use. So, as she announced to us during the Witch Queen reveal trailer, she also has power over what IS true, to some extent. She uses Darkness, and now Light, to bend reality to her will. To make a fiction the truth, as the worms taught her. She's no meager fiend for the Guardians to shoot bullets at. Defeating her in combat is meaningless, as we have seen. She lives again, and it was always her plan. The threat Savathun poses is that she may very well have fabricated enormous parts of our oral history that we carry with us post-collapse. We know, from lore entries, that she was active on earth before the Collapse and she was doing some very odd, very strange things, including establishing compacts with human blood-lines and guiding families to safety before the Collapse even began. And, just as a cherry on top before I shut up here... ALL of this exists in the same universe as Elsie Bray. There is still an element we don't understand here, related to time and some sort of loop that our entire system might be caught in. We can't just hand-wave away Bray's existence, we NEED to understand how she's looping through different time-lines and what relationship that might have to everything else that happened to us during the Collapse.

@aura6920 8 месяцев назад

Impressive on how you broke this down very accurately, you’re definitely cooking something

@Venextron 8 месяцев назад

I think my one counter counter argument would be what Savvie's worm tells us about the Collapse, as it's a first hand account. At the same time, we know for a fact that she took the Veil, and that alone means she single-handedly saved Humanity and the Traveler, retconning the Sacrifice, and bringing into question why we exist in the first place. I'm against her being at the Collapse due to it going against established lore, but I'm not against her trying to help the Traveler, as it aligns with her goal of breaking free of the worms, if she wanted that back then. However like I said, her saving the day diminishes in my opinion very core concepts of Destiny, without providing any satisfying explanations for them. Here's the final part. I don't see this as a big mystery. I don't see this as one big cunning story. I see this as a writing mistake, and an accidental breaking of continuity. There's a reason why in WQ the worm made sure to say she wasn't the only reason we survived. The writers knew they couldn't cross that line. However LF completely crosses that line, and I don't believe it was on purpose. Therefore I think they had the goal of making her character less of a villain, but didn't think everything through before shoving her into the past.

@kylemccormack1785 8 месяцев назад

@@Venextron But that's just what I am saying, to address the crux of your issue. The "established lore" isn't more or less accurate, correct or unbiased just because we as the players were introduced to it first. Now it's certainly only a matter of taste whether or not you like this, I might even agree with you to a point that the sacrifice might be diminished if it turns out to be based on a lie, but this doesn't ruin the story for me, it just changes the context. Remember, Savathun had a billion years to craft schemes, plant lies, arrange tricks and traps. We should not make the mistake of thinking that the "established lore" tells us even 1% of what has occurred across these epochal time spans. The Books of Sorrow do indicate that the Hive Gods took their broods into separate directions, but at no point as we ever given a confirmed time-line. That might have happened 500 million years ago and the Books simple do not detail the more modern history of the Hive. We actually have next to zero information about what happened to the Hive broods after that time. And given that the game has established that Savathun was close enough to speak to Oryx before he went after the Traveler, it's not really up to us to just hand-wave that away because we don't like it. It's up to us to understand how that might be possible. Seems to me to be pretty obvious that, just as they used to do, the Hive broods reunited to share in an important victory together, here in Sol. It even makes sense that we encountered Oryx first, since he was devotedly following the Deep, the Black Fleet, while his sisters were off transforming their broods with new secrets and new conquests. We just do not know. Now, that's pretty frustrating and I hate it and we should have gotten way way way more answers in Lightfalls than we got, but it is what it is. Until we know the exact, true, specific reality of the Collapse and what the Hive/Witness did the FIRST time they came to our system, we simply lack the definitive context to come to any conclusions, one way or another. Cheers, mate! Great video.

@detectivestudios7699 8 месяцев назад

I think it can still be saved. Overall I still have the impression that Savathun isn’t necessarily humanity’s ally, it feels more like she’s begrudgingly accepting to side with us for the time being to put an end to the Witness and that she is already spinning a web of contingencies and secret plans. If the don’t do an Endgame moment where all the character appear together to fight the Witness I think there is still hope.

@marcosreyes148 8 месяцев назад

Dude. You're forgetting some simple possibilities. The fact that Oryx was documenting the Deep, doesn't means he was always there all the time. The story of the Hive consists of thousands of years. There's no way of determining an exact time frame. Second, in the first collapse it is said that the Traveler sacrificed itself, this is true. But it is also said that The Traveler WON. The tides turned. Whatever it was that Savathun did to decieve it, The Witness was repelled by The Traveller, so it couldn't have touched The Traveller to know where The Veil was. Savathun's worm said that The Witness was sent to the stars, not that it retreated. I do believe that there's a Winnower and that it's not The Witness, but Savathun didn't broke the game's lore. And calling Savathun an anti-hero is a little bit premature. Most likely she's waiting for us to take care of The Witness to make her next move.

@xXx_Regulus_xXx 8 месяцев назад

I'd like to hear your take on how Destiny's story could have gone if they had stuck to the plan. Bonus points if you can work in anything to do with Rasputin and !lettinggo.

@Venextron 8 месяцев назад

I might do that after Final Shape ;)

@xXx_Regulus_xXx 8 месяцев назад

@@Venextron hyyyype

@Ben-zg8xk 5 месяцев назад

@@xXx_Regulus_xXx!lettinggo was confirmed fake, but yeah it will be pretty hyped considering this guy has spoken to people involved in the original story about the darkness

@christianyaerger1751 6 месяцев назад

I believe Ghosts were borne from a fusion of Light and Darkness. It's possible the Traveler stripped the Witness of several hundred Precursor minds, wiped their minds, and put them in ghost shells. The Witness could have been severely weakened, even scared by this. I'm the process, the Traveler would have to give up some of its own power. An act of Taking coupled with an act of Gifting. We don't know the nature of Savathun's description.

@7472wayne 7 месяцев назад

Was she not there to steal the veil away to stop the final shape? And didn’t she put an enchantment spell on the traveller, drawing it and pinning it to earth?

@PorgChamp 6 месяцев назад

I mean it is convoluted as hell but if the Traveler didn't sacrifice itself to cripple the pyramid ships feel like Savathun hiding the Veil only delays the inevitable. If the Witness won it could just cage the Traveler (see Lighfall opening cutscene). Then it would have all the time until the heat death of the universe to search every inch of the universe looking for the Veil. I mean this kinda happening in Lighfall as it was ok floating in from of the Traveler for like 8 hours while Calus was fucking around trying to find the Veil. While I wish the whole Collapse was far more streamlined I am also ok with it beginning a hectic mess. As Savvy's worm says she wasn't THE reason but A reason. Every other civilization that faced the Darkness lost and all the stars had to align for us to make it. Still a mess tho

@timewaster504 6 месяцев назад

So, the way I see it is that Savathun took out Nezarec and hid the veil, giving the traveler the opening to do its big sacrifice, pushing back the darkness and/ the Witness, preventing them from making contact. As for the traveler deciding to stay, it may have been because Ana Bray convinced Rasputin to stand down from attempting to nuke the traveler. A similar situation as the final story beats before Lightfall. Yeah the story is full of holes, but I think it hold together a bit better than you claim here. That being said, I'm no lore expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

@lmlagg 6 месяцев назад

The only way I see Savathun and the Traveler doing the things they’ve been said to do is way too speculative. Like it could reasonably said that The Traveler did sacrifice itself to push away the Black Fleet and push Nezzy to near death. This would give room for Savathun’s betrayal by letting her kill him. It also makes sense why it was believed that the Traveler acted alone in “defending humanity.” Savathun’s whole scheme was not letting the Witness know she betrayed them. Having done all of this in secret, it would make sense that the speaker (who tells the story initially), possibly even the Traveler itself didn’t know what she did. Having used up its energy, the Traveler or “Gardener” created the ghosts in a desperate attempt to protect itself while it was “asleep” up until the Red War. It’s just another act of self-preservation by the Traveler because it couldn’t just flee another civilization after taking so much damage. The idea that the Traveler wasn’t “awake” until the Red War’s conclusion is also pretty important. Sure, the Traveler closed back up, but Eris likened it to a fist tightening for a punch. It didn’t go back to sleep. Why did I make that last paragraph? Well, the Witness needed the Traveler to be awake to find the Veil. If the Traveler was asleep and they didn’t know where the Veil was, it makes sense that they would go away until it woke up. That’s why we got D2’s final cutscene. That was the fleet being alerted to the Traveler being active again and now they could use it to find the Veil and enact the Final Shape. They hid far enough away to make the Traveler feel safe enough to wake up. This blunder alerted the fleet and was their signal to come back to finish what they had started. This doesn’t answer why Savvy was there and not Oryx. Some more speculation would be the fact that he was being metaphorical when he said he’d follow the deep. Maybe he sent Crota to our moon specifically because the Witness and Veil were going there and in a rare instance of positive familial relationships within the Hive, wanted to give Crota a learning experience. Either all of that series of educated guesses would be how it all played out, or Savathun and her worm lied the whole time.

@johnmichinock752 8 месяцев назад

The thing is there is no Winnower. The Winnower is a title the Witness species sought to maintain the Universe. The is no Gardener either. That’s just the name the Witness species has for the Traveler.

@kristophershephard7359 8 месяцев назад

Great video and i watched it 3x but... let me counter. When the three sisters split yes it was because of Oryx growing too powerful but each sister had to live by the ideal of their worm. Oryx the navigator always wanting to go further and crushing others to make the map of the hive destiny. Xivu was driven and fueled by war. Savathun was to live by cunning and trickery. Now Savathun throughout her history in conflict with others infiltrates and carves up her opponents psychologically and sabotaged or gets her way from the inside. She showed this during her arc with her in the city. Osiris had his light taken and she swooped in. I don't think she was working with Xivu. Remember she was already using imbaru at the time. Now back to the story. She infiltrated the Black fleet somehow. She can assume forms etc and she had gained knowledge during this time. Would you tell l/trust a 20 ft tall hive witch or an old guardian that has lost his powers? I'm guessing this isn't the first time she has done this look at The war with the Harmony. I'm sure during the ride along with the black fleet she figured out the witnesses plan or she knew this veil was important. The witness didn't get rid of her whole race because they were useful or he didn't know who she was like he did with Rhulk and Nezzy. Now as for Nez he didn't come with the witness. Remember the ships showed up before the witness. The witness didn't lead from the front and since he has been "searching" I'm going to assume that he was communicating with Nez like he did with Calus by not being there. The assault to get the traveler started and I'm guessing with the beam and proximity to the union of dark and light with the veil the ghosts were created. Why do I say that? Our ghost is both light and dark. Savathun not wanting the final end to arrive kills Nez crashes the ship and takes the veil to Neomuna and hides it. The witness arrives and doesn't care about the traveler because it's "dead" and it has no veil so why care. It needs a new purpose and plan so it goes dormant until it's reawakening. Oryx didn't talk to his sister because they split and oryx could commune with the deep without the veil. Why would he be looking for the veil especially if he didn't know about it or it didn't factor into his plans? Crota was at the moon post collapse only because oryx had kicked him out because of the vex incident created by Savathun century or so before hand. Also crota kept trying to prove to his dad he could destroy everything after his failure. Now what is the definition of winning team and proving right? The traveler and veil are just tools of the Gardener and winnower right? Gardener creates the traveler to give and the veil travels to... wait it can't move. The veil can only mentally create and ensure that a knife can be made which is the witness. The witness is wrong because we're not just of light and working blind we are light and dark and we make our own future. Winning is existence and continuing. If anything we are evolved because we have traits of Gardener and winnower. Remember we picked up the seed of silver wings. How? We are both light and dark. Inadvertently the brief exchange of info created the witnesses foil. Savathun is just trying to find her way to make her destiny with her family as I think we will see in the final episode. I think she will find a way for the cosmic entity of whatever the tree of Silver wings makes as its fruit or inside of it. We never hear of the fruit of the tree. We have the leaves, seeds, bark, air, the absorption of light and dark but never the fruit of a tree of ruin. If you read all this thank you.

@Venextron 8 месяцев назад

Thank you for the great comment! I love it when people are able to share their thoughts respectfully, even if it's a disagreement. To respond to your points, I think that's a valid thought, that they split due to their natures as well. The main reason I really stick with them separating due to Oryx's power, was because of when the split happened, and also the fact that he did have a much greater amount of power over them. At the same time, them staying away from each other so they didn't need to divide their spoils also made sense. Something else people seemed to not remember from the video, was the question of why were any of the Siblings at the Collapse. For all intents and purposes, Oryx is the only Hive god who had any valid reason for being there at all, that being to document the actions of the Deep. Apart from that it's not like the Black Fleet needed the Hive's help to beat the Traveler, and they weren't seriously interested in taking Earth either, otherwise they would have easily done so earlier. Another thing that seems to have been overlooked is that the explanation in WQ is completely different to that in LF. In WQ, she earned the Witness's trust. The Collapse happens, and the Witness is focused on destroying Humanity. Only in the end does it focus on the Traveler. She deceives it with tricks and magic and the Fleet leaves. No mention of Nezarec, no mention of the Veil, and the Witness's motivations during the Collapse are different. The Worm is also very clear in saying that she was not not the ONLY reason Humanity survived. LF completely changes this. First of all the Witness's motivations are changed. With the Veil being introduced, we now know that the Witness only every wanted one thing: to link the Veil to the Traveler. That was it. If the link was made it was a gg. By stealing the Veil, Savvie is now the sole reason for Humanity's survival during the Collapse. If the Veil is gone, there is literally no reason for the Fleet to be there. You might think that they decided to cripple the Traveler on Earth, so that it wouldn't leave while they looked for the Veil, and that's a valid point. However we know what the Fleet did. It sat at the edge of the Galaxy for centuries. And all it took to find the Veil, was touching the Traveler. What people don't want to understand, is that a lot of these story problems are the result of continuity being broken, and bad writing decisions. That is a fact. The story over the course of D2 has changed, and that includes several different versions of the Collapse that have come and gone. Savvie stealing the Veil doesn't just retcon the earlier versions of the Collapse, but it also makes a Sacrifice from the Traveler pointless. If the Collapse is still going on when Savvie kills Nezarec, then no sacrifice has happened yet. Therefore if the Traveler is fine when the Veil is stolen, there is no need for it to sacrifice itself. If it doesn't do that, then why were the Guardians made? Simply put, unless it's solely because of the wager made between the Gardener and Winnower (which you'd have to accept their existence then), all other reasons for the Guardians being created is because of the Traveler's sacrifice. It all collapses on itself. That is the core of my argument, and I do feel like I probably didn't explain myself properly in the video, but that's a mistake I just have to learn from. With that being said I will respond to some of your other points too. The Ghosts are not Light and Dark, only Light. When there used to be the Darkness subclass node, and the Light one, the Light one read "Wield the Traveler's gift etc" and the Darkness one read "Unleash the power within." I won't ramble too much about this, but I highly recommend you watch my "The Truth of Our Darkness Powers Video." You're also assuming that the Witness arrived at the Collapse after everyone else, and left when it realized that the Veil wasn't there. I believe you're confusing this with the Winnower. If you watch my Winnower video, and watch the Collapse segment (it's timestamped) I explain that in great detail. As for what you said about the fruit of the tree, I found that very interesting, and I would like to know more about that. Finally, thank you for watching the video as many times as you did, and for leaving the well articulated, polite comment that you did. I consider this the standard that I wish everyone reached, and I am very grateful for your viewership and thoughts. Thank you {:0).

@kristophershephard7359 8 месяцев назад

@Venextron I just found your channel and it is amazing. I'm watching the beyond light narrative review and it is fantastic. I love how you integrate facts, lore and the writing. I look forward to more. Thanks for the eloquent, thorough and well thought out reply!!! Have a great day!!

@blaire4115 8 месяцев назад

The Collapse is a mess, and I agree it's way too late to fix it now (if writers even care that is). If they expand on it in Final Shape, no way it will all fit nicely together.

@neapolitan_pyro5620 8 месяцев назад

I'm not sure if they were at the collapse. Oryx and xivu could have been because the time scale and lack of knowledge is a bit iffy. But I wouldnt say Croat being there makes it automatic. Crota was in the sol system after being thrown into the vex network to reprent for his actions. He made his way out from there to carve his own path and continue tithing to his father. So I don't really see why oryx would be there in that* reasoning.

@GloverGaming3 7 месяцев назад

Some of the facts you quoted were just things the speaker said. I see the speaker as more of a religious figure who just talks out of his ass (as he told Ghaul). I also see The Winnower and The Witness as different figures since Season of the Deep gave us The Witness' creation story. If anything, I feel like The Ghosts are the voice of The Traveler, and The Winnower is the voice in The Darkness. The voice that corrupts is not the voice of The Witness. I feel the antagonists of Destiny are organized into somewhat of a Pyramid, where you fight a boss and find out he was only a servant of another boss, and then you fight that boss and again find out that he was serving someone else, and just keep going up and across until all the bosses have been beaten

@navi0760 8 месяцев назад

Please let me know if im wrong but I feel like scenarios 1 and 2 (around the 7 minute mark you mentioned three possible scenarios of the collapse) can be combined.

@JimmyPivin 5 месяцев назад

I have to tell you your logo make me think of There is a moment in the Whisper mission in a in between area the shape of the jumping puzzle is kidda a V and the color around is red i just keep thinking about you haha thats sooooo out of context but had to tell love your channel gg keep it up

@EpticityOG 8 месяцев назад

Back then in beyond light your videos and content got me excited for the pyramids only to be left disappointed by BUNGIE. Now the only thing I can say still intrigues me and hopefully gets expanded on later is the Aphelion

@SmolShippie 8 месяцев назад

The video claims to be 1440p60fps but the fps is clearly lower, maybe some bug during editing?

@Venextron 8 месяцев назад

Fps in editing software was 60, so I’m not sure :(

@Banana-senpai 8 месяцев назад

3:40 this seems like a weak point to make. Reading it plainly it seems they part ways to grow stronger and evolve in "the way the darkness' followers do". So now I ask, how much time passed between the victory at the black hole and The Collapse? What if they grew as strong as Oryx so they could "compete" in equal terms as they do now? It isn't said anywhere that they had to remain separate forerver, right?

@Vicvic3386 8 месяцев назад

Season of the plunder lore you referenced came from a source that is not is not a first hand witness, and to be fair the humanity couldn’t do much so I doubt that those records are completely accurate, traveler repelling the traveler might be an interpretation of what happened when traveler went in to slumber and created guardians (I consider traveler’s ability to attack not completely canon because then why did traveler never use it after awakening?) and probably the reason why traveler did that is because of the confirmation from witch queen that she defeated nezi and has hidden the vail. As for why the witness didn’t find it by touching the traveler while it was asleep is because the universe is fucking huge! It probably didn’t have time to arrive by then as from we understand vail is a huge power source and probably worded as a beacon to transmit the location while it was in possession of the nezi pyramid. And when the communication was cut off witness is now limited by normal navigation and being even a tiniest fraction of a degree off is you can simply miss a moving target. So, only answer is to wait for something to give away travelers location. Doesn’t explain why nezi had the vail or why witness was so far behind but combines most of the lore in my opinion

@MuzcleJinx. 8 месяцев назад

This is pretty much why I stopped caring about the lore. The story became too convoluted, and they recon a lot of it. The story from Destiny to Forsaken was simple but it made sense. Now its all over the place. And in my opinion I it sucks that a lot of our enemies are becoming allies. (Uldren, Caiatl, Savathun, and Riven)

@nickmurray2390 8 месяцев назад

I still think you are really great at looking at the lore but I still think a lot of issues are because the story is part of how our guardian is manipulated. There could be changes over the years but I have thought Savathun was not a villain but people around us are hell bent on making sure we view her that way.

@Venextron 8 месяцев назад

It's not that she HAS to be a villain. It's simply my opinion that Bungie changed their view of her, and wanted to change her direction as a character, and as I mentioned under a different comment, broke continuity by accident by making her the one who took the Veil. Ultimately this isn't a Savvie problem, it's a writing one. I think as a character she's brilliant, and am not against her being a gray character. I just hate it when it appears pre-established lore is messed with for the sake of a current agenda. Same with how the Witness was shoved into the Books of Sorrow if you know what I mean.

@nickmurray2390 8 месяцев назад

I have approached destiny lore in a different way for a long time, the community has weird assumptions for what is canon and what isn't. Somehow "truth to power" is all lies? Why couldn't there be lies in everything then, we are an amnesiac godweapon it is useful for the vangaurd to have our loyalty. I think every word in truth to power is true, and that means fundamentally changing how we see the truth in the world. I have believed for many years each alien race is just humanity, either through time shenanigans or something else. I thin your best quality is how you come up with radically different interpretations on the norm but they are founded in understanding the myriad nuances the massive load of lore this game really has. I just think we can all make incorrect assumptions about behind the scenes stuff as well but then we miss ideas we hadn't considered. I really think Destiny has not had many retcons but we have just refused to see how our understanding of the world is used to manipulate who our enemies have been, and we have seen characters on all sides radically grow over these years. Humanity did all this to itself. @@Venextron

@UltraRisen 7 месяцев назад

Destiny’s lore has become so jumbled and incoherent over time, that at this point, there would be no way to recover it other than a full-on reboot of the franchise as a whole. If you’ve watched some of I Hate Everything’s more recent Destiny videos, he says something I now completely agree with: With the corner Destiny 2 has been written in, the Light vs. Darkness saga will not be concluded in a satisfying way.

@GetGwapThisYear 8 месяцев назад

This is an interesting video, with some good points raised, and there’s probably some truth to the parts of the narrative you take issue with, but I don’t think it’s entirely fair to be so critical. Reason being, historical accounts and views of history do change in real-time, based on new information. Accounts from several sources can build a picture around the contributing factors that lead to an event, but the involvement of all parties will not all be motivated by the same thing. Some of the accounts are based on fable, some are assumption, and others overestimate the importance of their actions, just like the real world. As long as it doesn’t start getting stupid, I think we can just roll with it.

@go2nrg 8 месяцев назад

Im sorry but I feel like you’re putting too much stock in the Unveiling lore book that is from the Witness. “Welcome to the problem that all Bible scholars have trying to figure out-what may or may not have happened and lining that up to actual historical events," says senior narrative designer Robert Brookes. "Unveiling is a parable. It is effectively a religious text. And how much of that is propaganda, how much of that is myth, how much of that is fact is deeply unclear in the nature of the text." The Gardener (the Traveler as per Ahsa’s cutscene) and the Winnower (unknown but heavily implied to be The Witness as its goal is to cull the Traveler’s chaos as per the same cutscene) as per the book are fighting this game. The game is talked by the Witness a lot. “You have no more pieces left to place. The game is over.” Savathûn’s story was clearly meant to set up the explanation for everything in Destiny with Lightfall (now Final Shape) as we never had any explanation of what really happened at the collapse. Only assumptions. No one knows what the Traveler is thinking or wanted to do. Even the Speaker in D2 vanilla. “I speak for the Traveler. I never said it spoke to me.” OG Lightfall (now Final Shape) was/is going to provide that context for everything. Savathûn was just a mechanism to say “everything you knew was a lie and there is so much more you don’t know… little light.”

@Venextron 8 месяцев назад

After getting a lot of feedback about the Winnower and Unveiling, I'm going to spend a lot of time digging into whether or not the arguments are valid. Either way I plan on making Unveiling the focus of my next video.

@go2nrg 8 месяцев назад

While I believe your interpretation would make for a better overall story, I don’t believe it’s the path Bungie have created and have been planning for since, I believe, Shadowkeep’s story. I believe the story of the Gardener and Winnower as done in the Unveiling lore book was set up to give false impressions in a similar manner to how religious leaders take scripture over time and warp it. The senior narrative designer Robert Brookes almost confirms this last year when he said Unveiling is a parable. The Witness is the religious leader.