How The Bene Gesserit Manufactured A Messiah | Dune Lore 

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To me one of the major flaws in the BG plan is the fundamental idea. That a being, an individual with both ultimate power AND complete comprehension of everything they did to facilitate him, would in any way be controllable. As you said, hubris.

You tried to create a godlike being and you thought you could CONTROL him?!?!

Frank Herbert set up such a brilliant mythos in the books it's very impressive

"he's not the Messiah he's a very naughty boy" 😂😂😂

It reminds me of a slippery fish that the sisterhood tried to grab hold of, and splash.. it slips through their fingers and simply swims away.

As you have surely mentioned in other videos, Dune is, among other things, about the dangers of messianism, fanaticism and political manipulation. Very nice video, as always. I always look forward to your next Dune video, as a ”dunie” myself :).

Another factor is the Bene Gesserit had the benefit of their female ancestors while the kwisatz haderach had the female AND the male lines to draw from

Paul did ultimately become the father of the Savior of Humanity (who indeed emerged into being 'on time' exactly one generation later) : Leto II Atreides, The God Emperor who finally set Humanity onto The Golden Path (i.e. genetically programmed rejection of sheltered safety that leads to fatal stagnation).

I think it was actually their manipulations of Paul that caused him to become the KH in the first place because of his exposure to the reverend mother and because of the assassination attempts on him when he reached Dune combined with his spice awakening he found out what they were doing and what they wanted without their knowledge of him making this discovery that's why Jessica was so distraught at him when he had the visions in the tent. She knew he discovered the truth when she had hoped he would remain ignorant.

I think it is implied somewhere that Shaddam IV was denied a son because the Bene Gesserit wanted the KH to become the legitimate leader of mankind, by marrying one of the five imperial heiress.

Perfect explanation of the details concerning the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood's hubris. It was so funny that even after thousands of years after Paul Muad'Dib they still had the gall to refer to him and his son the god Emperor Leto II (III) as the "Failed Kwizats Haderachs" showing that the Sisterhood lacked the humility or even the wisdom to recognize their own folly. Both Muad'Dib and Leto II loved acting on spite against the Sisterhood, many people miss that. They would go against everything the Sisterhood wanted them to do, and of course Maud'Dib and Leto II were always aware and do things to anger them and dissuade them from ever trying to create another "messiah". Cause it was learned that Count Fenrir was a previous attempt at a Kwizats Haderach before Paul, only for Fenrir to be born a eunuch, thus failing to develop full prescience due to lack of a strong link to the Male Genetic memory that the Kwizats Haderach is supposed to have. By the end of the 6th novel, we still see that the Bene Gesserits still retained their stupid idea in wanting to control, but were very wary on trying to create another Kwizats Haderach, to the point of denouncing ever doing it again, unless they were sure to control him, lol.

The idea you create a myth you no longer have control of it is one of the truly powerful concepts created by Frank Herbert.

I think the Kwisatz Haderach didn't come too early, it's just that the Bene Gesserit did not know what to do with him. To them a Kwisatz Haderach was just the end product of something akin to a dog breeding program and a tool they hoped to control, and through him the entire humankind, just like pre Butlerian Jihad AI was used for the same purpose (yes, in Dune we're witnessing how the ban on AI was but a superficial solution because the real problem is always some group of humans trying to control another group). They didn't count on the fact that the KH is still a human with his own motivations, desires and all. And with the near destruction of his family those personal motivations became top priority for him, setting him on the one way path to be an enemy of the Bene Gesserit.

I wonder if the originally planned Kwisatz would have rebelled against the mothers in the same way?

In genetics, what the Bene Geserit was proposing by having an Atredes female breed with Feyd Ruatha is called "Inbeeding", because Jessica is Baron Harkonnen's daughter. Unless Feyd is not related to Baron Harkonnen, and we have absolutely no evidence of that, this was a deliberate decision by the Sisterhood to breed close relatives together (cousins) in an effort to conserve desirable genetic traits. It's been mentioned in the book, that had Feyd been brought up under the strict, but fair and disciplined environment like the Atredes household, he might have turned very differently.😮

“Never follow a leader without asking your own questions.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune Cheers.

An idea that's been growing stronger in my head as I'm thinking about Dune, and looking over questions and comments on TV Tropes. . . The Messiah arrived a generation early. When Paul informs Jessica that she's Baron Harkonen's daughter, they both immediately realize that the Bene Gesserit thought they needed to double-down on some specific piece of genetics that a close Atreides-Harkonen breeding would produce (if Paul had been a woman, then mating with Feyd-Rautha would have been first cousins once removed). The Bene Gesserit just didn't expect that the necessary genetics were already in place. But. . . were they? Given what Paul, and later Leto II bring to humanity, were they *really* kwizatz haderach in full? If that "missing" bit of genetics had been obtained, would the hypothetical son of Paulina Atreides and Feyd-Rautha Harkonen have been better equipped to use their prescience to guide humanity to a good future, eliminating all the bad that occurred as Paul and Leto II sought to avoid a bad one? Probably not. . . Dune is, after all, far from a totally optimistic universe, and of the corrupt power structures that exist at the time we enter the narrative, the Bene Gesserit are among the worst. The rot had well and truly set in, and drastic action would probably be inevitable if it were to be removed. Still. . . it makes one wonder, if there can be a "failed" kwizatz haderach like Count Fenring, can there be a "successful enough, but not as successful as he might have been" kwizatz haderach? Is Paul just at the bottom end of what one could have been, and could another generation or two have made a difference?

This video really connects alot of the dots. Certain things from the movie are starting to make more sense.

Thanks, Elaine. ( and Nick )

On behalf of my lady and myself, thank you and well done in your coverage of this and other topics. We just completed re-reading (she for the sixth time, me for my fifth) Dune for our neighborhood SF book club. We have some quibbles with your interpretation of a few things. The Sisterhood of the Bene Gesserit seem to us to have no great reverence nor faith, instead quite cynically using religion as a panoply and tool towards their larger agenda of political mastery. Since they exist in a long standing stable feudal system, the Sisterhood view the genetic refinement of the noble houses to be one of their most valuable tools to achieve their political ends. Towards these ends they view the creation of the Kwisatz Haderach, one with the hereditary gifts which they could refine and train (and thus control) from inception, as a key to their political ends. Herbert holds up Count Casimir Fenring as one of the failed attempts of this breeding program; a sterile dead end. The Sisterhood do not realize his value as Paul-Muad Dib does, for he realizes that has has never seen the Count in any of his visions. He deduces that several of his own unseen deaths were at this hand, but that is more his Mentat training than his abilities as Kwisatch Haderack. Note as well that the Sisterhood did not view the Mentat skills and abilities as needful for their creation, that training of Paul was a choice by Jessica, Leto I, and Thuffir based on the abilities and potential the young Paul had demonstrated to them. Thank you again and do please keep up the good work. We were particularly impressed by the balance and restraint you showed in your nonetheless scathing review of Amazon's (in your apt words) Bastardization of Tolkien's Legendarium.

The fact that the Bene Gesserit chose the evil psychopathic Baron Harkonnen over the virtuous honourable Duke Leto Atreides tells you everything you need to know about the Bene Gesserit. Also, the fact that the Bene Gesserit misandrist Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam upon immediately meeting Paul Atreides. She bosses his mother around right in front of him, then uses the voice on him, then threatens to kill him and then tortures him with the box more severely than any other human in history, and also played a vital part in the murder of his father. It's not surprising Paul had such disdain, contempt, and mistrust for the Bene Gesserit. There was no controlling Paul after that. This is why matriarchy don't work, and when you take into account how powerful the Kwisatz Haderach would be. The fact that they thought they could control Paul just goes to show, yes just like you said, pure hubris by them on every level.

Wonderful video, you have a gift for breaking down complex concepts for everyday people to understand.

The Bene Gesserit's endeavor to save man from his hubris was noble.

Great video, I love the background music on this one as well. I know Frank Herbert would probably not agree with me buy I have always loved the Benne Geserite, some of the most interesting storylines in the books, and some of my favorite characters come from them.

I also think it's very interesting that Leto said of all the groups under his reign. The Benne Geserite were the only ones he thought of wiping out completely. His reasoning was fascinating.

Powerful stories can move and motivate people who believe them but they merge with the minds of believers and evolve along unpredictable paths. I think the Dune series itself illustrates that fact as well as using it as a central story element.

Your Dune videos are always entertaining and interesting to watch, keep up the great work Elaine!

I read the books when I was too young, so much went over me. Thanks for sharing this fascinating work fiction. I love the scale of Dune. The comment, trinocular vision, might seem quirky on the surface but it is so much more. In the recent dune film when Paul scoffs at the idea of bringing about "the one" how Lady Jessica reponds " a mind" is epic, one of my favorite scenes.

If Frank Herbert was alive today he would be subscribed to Nerd Cookies !!!!!!!

I think a quote from one of my favorite movies sums up pretty well “We dreamed of creating the strongest Pokémon… and we succeeded.”

Your efforts with pronouncing the words are appreciated.

Thanks for the vid. Great work as ever.

The Bene Gesserit lost control of their manufactured messiah and Paul also lost control of the Jihad he unleashed on the universe. Humans are confident that they are in control until they realized too late they aren't.

Lovecraft had the best advice for all those who seek to control that which they have created: Do not call up that which you cannot put down. Herbert even says it later in his own words: The power to destroy a thing is the absolute control over it.

Their problem was that they wanted control. They got what they wanted, and he didn't subscribe to their view of the Universe. But through their breeding program they made him more powerful of all of them combined.

Look at her , a reverend mother. Patient in a patient cause. , 90 generations. Thry have waited. And prepared,

“Don’t follow leaders - watch the parking meters.” - Bob Dylan

How has this channel not exploded

Lunchtime Dune Cookies!!!!! Yayyyy!!!🤩🤩🤩

Really the saddest thing about Paul. He was never ok with any of it.

The problem that the Bene Gesserit didn't understand which made their plan to create a messiah that they could control was that for the Kwisatz Haderach to be that messiah he would need knowledge that they did not have. Once an apprentice knows more than their mentor there is no need to follow the mentor. The Kwisatz Haderach was to be a male Reverant Mother, but he would have access to both sides of his family's ancestral memories, whereas a Reverant Mother would only have the memories on their mother's side.

Brilliant writing !!!!!

Given how unusual it was for the Bene Gesserit to birth sons, why choose a son for the embedded prophecy among the Fremen?

The Bene Gesserit was developing the QH not as a "leader," but as a primary servant of their cause. Planning to ultimately control every aspect of his education and life, the BG leadership expected to manipulate the QH as they did all their other sisterhood members. Mama Jessica crapped all over that plan by bearing him out of sequence and failing to get a BG specialist in erotic enslavement to sexually imprint him. THEN, the QH had a son with a genetically rogue female, that son of whom then evolved with such a dynamic leap of physical and intellectual talent that the BG was effectively neutralized for several thousand years as humanity's primary leading institution of species survival.

One's plan never survives contact with the enemy

Be careful what you wish for , you might just get it.

It's Frankenstein. You create something you can't control that then destroys you.

Its been in my mind since my first reading of the Dune series. We know the Bene Gesserit reaction to Paul. But id love to read a well documented story of their reaction to realizing that...Leto ll was Pauls son...that Leto was also a kwizatch haderach...and then their reaction whrn they csme to know Letos merging withe the sandtrout and his transformation. The initial knowledge of all yhis must have come as an eathquake to the sisterhood.

It is good to see and understand religions as potential tools that can be weilded by mortal human beings, even with their own weaknesses, but as an input to the lives of many in a society, it is also a mistake to believe total control is possible, either. Rather, the most defensible use of religion is arguably for guiding personal and social development across generations with fewer outbreaks of violence. Herbert is still the master of capturing this tension in fiction, and it makes for an incredible read.

I always kind of contrast the BG with the priestesses of Avalon in the Mists of Avalon series. The priestesses gave some guidance to local rulers, and they also collect genes from top-level males in a sort of ad hoc breeding program. One they did do that the BG really should have done was keep all the breeding women at Avalon and let the horny dukes come to them. They way, you don't lose control of your Kwisatz Hederach!

The very Herbert part was how their “creation” ended up ruling them... in ways even Odrade had trouble understanding.

Such a great video :)! I made one recently on the importance of myth throughout Dune and was hoping someone would do a deep dive into the BG !

This is why it was so easy to know who actually read the books and who hadn't because Paul never wanted to be this person, he never wanted to do what he saw himself doing, he even didn't want revenge against the emperor but because of what happened he was forced into that role by circumstance and by a need for justice. It's why he never murdered the Emperor in cold blood either and instead forced him to become exile. This is why when Rebecca Ferguson talked about Paul she got him all wrong, it was enough for fans to know she really didn't read the book at all.

Excellent video, as always!

And then the whole plan is ruined by the "No-Gene"

Great video. I think it’s the same lesson we get with people thinking they can control any kind of manufactured life. It’s usually clones and AI. Once that new life can think for itself, it always goes against the parent.

Yay cookies today !!

Reminds me of all the Super-AI movies

Love you nerd cookies

Boy, their plan sure backfired.

Thank you.

I find it strange that the BG basically ignored half of the equation, that being the genetics of the females. NOT knowing the exact genetics of the women they indoctrinated (remember, Mohaim didn't know that she was Jessica's mother!).

The books are a great lesson in politics , religion and manipulation . Should be read by anyone . It helps understand the world around us and how groups of people react , how opinions , and behavior is manipulated . I do like the sisters . I think they also saw the future and the risk of extintion for humanity but their vision was limited . Paul and Leto could see the complete image of what had to be done . I think both sisters and Leto had the same goal . Maybe if the plan worked and sisters guided the messiah things could have been less bloddy . Sisters lost control of their creation and Paul lost control of the freemen. Once their religious war started they become like a force of nature, like a huricane . No one could stop it and Paul knew he can only ride that wave . Like a dam broken it flow and to stay in its way was death .Leto inherited a more stable empire thanks to Alia and unlike his father he was not afraid to become the neccessary monster . He was a hero in the end . He did kill half a universe but he also sacrifice his own life and in the end set everyone free . It is a concience question the book asks . How moral it is to sacrifice so many for a better future . In the end the sisters are the ones holding civilization together after the chaos Leto death left .

Mk ultra I am the Kwisatz Haderach Persian royalty Ancient Egyptian lineage Brought up Catholic Followed by spirituality I am a powerful psychic I am to become a powerful ruler I am going to change the world My destiny was written in the stars Prophecy

Ill adreess you sppropially

A woman will always try to change a man to suit her purposes. Sometimes she will think she has succeded, but she will ultimately fail. A man must be himself if he is to survive and provide. Taking a man's self will destroy him. The best thing a woman can do is recognize a man, and love and support his strengths and weaknesses. The best a man can do is love the woman for herself, and give her what she needs. The witches tried to control rather than support. This cannot be done successfully.

that over exposed and saturated pic of new Paul thou

🍪👹👍

The Bene Gesserit should have planned better

The Bene Gesserit teach me that religion should never be trusted and even the most detailed and micro managed plans will fail thanks to human will and chaos.

The BG were very arrogant I think, in their planning and actions and attitudes. Very cold hearted bravo those who went against their teachings

Content so fascinating. Voice intonation so annoying.

Planned parenthood vibes...