How the Song of Ice and Fire Fails - It’s Unfinishable 

Like many successful authors, Martin needed a wise, ruthless editor.

When the sun rises in the west, sets in the east, when the seas go dry and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves, _then_ ASoIaF will be finished

Hard to call him a gardener, when you consider that gardening consists to a large degree of cutting, trimming and removing stuff.

The Witcher series is even more pessimistic, but it is kind of Gilgamesh-like in its answer of "Oh well, life is shit and then you die, but do try to live as well and as kindly as you can while you still can."

GRRM subverted himself out of existence.

The beauty of Martin’s failure is that it’s created a huge void for fantasy consumers that previously unrecognized/new writers can now potentially fill.

Earlier today I came across this video by a RU-vidr called Jess of the Shire about "The Lord of the Rings" sequel that JRR Tolkien attempted to write in the late 60s/early 70s. It was tentatively titled "The New Shadow" and he had completed 3 drafts of the opening chapter. It was set over a century after the end of The War of the Ring. I won't go into plot details you can hear in the video, but Tolkien finally gave up writing this because it is hypothesized that going into an re-emergence of Evil in a Human world without Elves and Dwarves was very depressing to him. Hobbits were not even mentioned so they may not have been central characters in this book either. Since "The New Shadow" book's proposed theme mirrored other cynical books that already dealt with this topic during his lifetime he lost his enthusiasm to proceed. Plus, he was still trying to complete what became "The Silmarillion" that was finished by his son, Christopher, after his death. Instead of extending his story into the 4th Age, he seems to have decided what he had finished in "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" was enough. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-f8FJ50cFXmk.html

This. This has always been both his curse and blessing. GRRM's problem as a writer is that he doesn't see himself as a problem solver but a problem finder. I think it was Orwell commenting on Kipling. Some people remain ever in the mental space that it's them you tell you what's wrong and why. In simple terms a more modern expression would be "speak truth to power." They enjoy it because there's no responsibility in it. They don't really want to be in charge, they want to tell people in charge what to do. That way nothing is their fault. GRRM does this exactly in short works. He can zero in on something specific. ASOIAF is full of every example he can find of how a way of ruling can be or go wrong, or be undermined. But I don't think GRRM can actually find a way to write anything working. He can't take a position and say "this is better or best." Because someone (including himself) will always see a potential flaw. Played out in a short story focused on one side of a coin it's simple and straightforward. You don't expect an answer, just a critique. In these novels he's not flipping a coin or two, he's rolling dice. Worse, all his coins are tails and all his dice are loaded. He's too terrified of presenting anything as "the right way to do it." He famously critiques JRRT's Aragorn ending with "he ruled well and just." The problem now is, how do you end the story with Bran as a king? When people ask how Bran ruled what does he say? How does he tell us how Bran ruled well if GRRM can only criticize how it's gone wrong or will go wrong? He can put all the pieces in the place he imagines them going, but he can never tell you why they're the right places.

I don't think Martin helped himself by agreeing to his series being turned into a tv series before he'd finished it - particularly knowing how long he's taken to write each book towards the end. He gave D&D an outline for how he THOUGHT it would end (bearing in mind he's a 'gardener' writer at heart,) and they seriously dropped the ball with it, leaving legions of fans with a sour taste in their mouths that provoked a backlash about how much they hated the way it ended. So now he's stuck; does he risk continuing with his 'original' outline, hoping he can make it a better version than D&D's hated one? Or does he go in another direction entirely, to appease his disgruntled fans - but risk creating something they hate even more?

The Distributist did a very similar video essay on this topic several years ago, before the end of the tv series and was down voted to heck for pointing out that both book and TV show have no good way to end the same reasons you seem to be describing.

I always figured he was being a punk by doing one last subversion of just not finishing the story.

I don’t see how he can satisfactorily wrap up the story in just two books

I laughed hard when you said Martin wants to be gardener in the Amazon

Ironically, the theme of failure runs as much through Tolkien's works as does Martin's. The Trees fail. The Noldor fail. Numenor fails. Isildur, the Wizards, Frodo, all fail. It is a given that if Sauron falls, tyat much will be.lost or diminished. Ellesar's dynasty, however long it will last, is a fading reflection of Numenor's glory. Still, despite all that, there is still hope and joy; still trust that eucatastrophe will occur again; that Manwe still sees and will send an Eagle from time to time; that the Song of Eru is still being sung; that above the deepest shadows, light still shines. That is what seems to be missing from Martin's wirk.

This in general is the issue you get with trying to rely solely on deconstruction and postmodernism from a philosophical standpoint. If there is no reference point to base you ideas on, you lose the ability to actually stand for anything which makes thematic clarity extremely hard to pull off. Deconstruction needs a constraint to turn it into a useful tool and not just a hammer of destruction.

There's a good side for the unfinishness of his work: we give it our own non-cynical ending.

In Dreamsongs GRRM wrote "My career is littered with the corpses of dead series." He was talking about his short stories, which he spent his early career on. He switched to novels later, and they were all standalone until A Game of Thrones. He talks about his Tuf stories as breaking his curse, but he only wrote enough of those to compile into one "fix-up" novel, rather than a series of novels. His failure to finish ASOIAF may be less specific to ASOIAF and more to Martin just never being a person who has pulled off a series of novels. Contrast that with one of his inspirations for the series, Tad Williams. I haven't read Williams, but after he finished his trilogy of deconstructive fantasy novels he was able to write more series, finish them, and then go back to the world he created earlier. Benioff & Weiss had decided on seven seasons LONG before Star Wars became a possibility.

I favor a simpler theory: that GRRM simply built up his own expectations for the ending of the saga, to the point where he knew he could only fail to meet those expectations. Once that happened, he has been writing away from the ending instead of toward it. This is literary procrastination at its worst. A story can always be finished. You just have to be willing to settle for the ending you can write, and not insist on the ending that you dream of.

I remember when George RR Martin would critique Tolkien and thought to myself, “at least Tolkien finished his work. George’s legacy will be that he had written great books but could never finish his masterpiece and left it hanging with no answers to problems he created and no ending.”.. there will only be the HBO series as an ending and boy what a stinker that was. I’d hate for my legacy to stand on the last season of Game Of Thrones. I also remember that when the media asked him how he felt about fans being worried that he might die before finishing the story of A Song Of Ice And Fire, his answer to his fans was, “fuck’em!”. I think those fans have a very real worry since Martin is getting older each day and certainly isn’t the picture of a healthy man. I lost all respect for him at that point.

The more the time pass as GRRM struggle to release 1 book the more i appreciate the works of Tad Williams for releasing a new Osten Ard tetralogy in the same amount of time.

He subverted the expectation that a fantasy series should be finished

It’s a great analysis. But I fundamnetally disagree. Martin is not ultimately cynical. He’s a disappointed idealist. You seem to read it as nonstop grimdark with no hope or ideal. I don’t see that. I see that it is deeply about hope in a dark world. Belief and religion is not always bad. Brienne is religious and her love of mythology is central to her goal to pursue honour and goodness. Her goodness prompts the change to Jaime, whose redemption is also tied up with a reignition of mythic thought - naming the sword - oathkeeper- naming his horse - honour. They even literally embody myths within the universe- they are forced to reenact the bear and the maiden fair , beauty and the beast (roles reversed) and even Galladon and the Maiden (the maiden gave a sword to Galladon, as Jaime gives a sword to Brienne). It oozes hope amongst darkness. Sansa never has given up her sensitivity and love of songs. Arya is not giving up her identity because she hid needle. Theon recovered his self and chose to help save Jayne. I feel that perhaps you have been more influenced by the show than you think. The show also took your view and thought GoT was grimdark. They made Brienne a callous murderer (fuck honour), made Sansa into ‘dark Sansa’ to show she was a strong girl boss. They made Jon’s destiny and parentage mean nothing, and made Dany evil for no reason. And made Jaime revert his personality.

Paraphrasing Vargas Llosa: "The novelist is obligated to choose what he will tell. He cannot tell everything there is, for life is insurmountable, always expanding, and in failing to do so, he would never finish writing it".

This is why you need to know how you end a series before you begin and do everything you can to make every action a brushstroke in that final piece.

There's a non-zero chance that the streaming show was completely faithful to his outline for the ending. He can't finish it, because of how much people hated it.

At the current state things are in, the only ending that would be tonally consistent with the rest of the story would be having the White Walkers win.

Am I the only ASOIAF fan who finds hope and meaning in his various stories and characters?

Fun fact about John Waterhouse @ 00:06:50 John Waterhouse's shockingly beautiful wife - although she was painted during the late Victorian period - was in so many fantasy and medieval paintings that she became the enduring standard for what a medieval or magic waifu should look like. Since then, other fantasy artists have been drawing her without even knowing who she is. And for fantasy worlds or creatures, the defining standard is Arthur Rackham's enormous and stunning body of work. If Rackham had lived another 10 years, he almost certainly would have illustrated Middle-Earth, and his art style would have defined the visual aesthetic, and made its' way into the movies as well.

In a way ASOIAF not ending is kind of the perfect ending for it. For a series of despair with no hope or satisfaction leaving the audience hanging with no resolution is very fitting. Not that Martin intended for that to be the case of course, but it is funny how it worked out that way.

I refuse to read any of Martins other books or let myself get sucked into his worlds if he’s going to leave them unfinished. Plus his bad attitude towards fans is kryptonite

Man: So , Sir Tolkien. Do you believe in flat or round earth? Tolkien: Yes

A few quibbles: Tolkien did actually get lost in the Silmarillion. His son and Guy Kay Gavriel had to hack the final text together from drafts written across decades and even add new sections to bridge existing texts together. Also, he abandoned the idea of Middle Earth being a mythology for England long before his death, likely when he abandoned the Anglo-Saxon frame story.

Martin just isn’t a devoted author. All of those problems that you listed, really aren’t reasons for the decline and self implosion of his story. He just isn’t devoted and doesn’t see a need to finish his books anymore. Postmodernism, complexity, and mythological subversion are all pretty important aspects of plenty of acclaimed writer’s wheelhouses, case in point Thomas Pynchon. V, Gravity’s Rainbow, Mason&Dixon, and Against the Day all possess those aspects, and are similarly pointed in ideological directions and all together are around the same length as ASOIAF(what they lack in bloated plotlines and throwaway chapters they make up with in quality). George has plain and simply lost his drive to write. An author who could stick to his guns and had a serious want and drive to finish his work would’ve buckled down and finished it.

Very thoughtful analysis. It’s ironic: I see ASOIAF as Martin’s attempt to take up the challenge Tolkien declined when he abandoned his LOTR follow-up, and now, hearing your view, I see Martin finding himself in Tolkien’s position: unwilling or unable to find a reason to complete that challenge.

In my opinion, his works strongly point towards one ending. The prayer to the many faced god is to be taken literally: "all men must die". The happenings in the north could only be overcome if all the kingdoms would work together, yet they are not, as the books clearly imply. The ending I see is the houses war-ing as they always do and the whites attacking from the north. A selected few protagonists realize the futility of it all and flee further south where the whites cannot reach. Then depending whether you want a happy ending they succeed doing so or don't. All the others die in the long winter. As the magic system in the books is soft, he does not need to tie all loose ends.

I think the main issue is that Martin isn't 100% focussed on finishing the book and instead chooses to do other things like writing the story of Elden Ring or House of the Dragons. If he was focussed on WoW he would be done by now imo.

Feast for crows is genuienly very thematically cohesive. Great read

I have two, perhaps not disagreements, but counter points. Firstly, and something you danced around but did not quite get at, is that Martin does not actually have principles at all. That may sound a but absurd, but everything he believes in a spiritual, political, and philosophical level is a rejection of something else. He affirms nothing, denies everything, and so can not say anything meanful. Secondly, deconstruction is useless if it results only in an analysis. It must be able to contribute to reconstruction and reconciliation or it is a waste of time and breath - as all the knowledge in the world is so much air if it does not contribute to something.

Tbh I always thought the point of ASOIAF was to end on a hopeful note. The books are a long dark tunnel but isn't the point of such a tunnel to reach the light?

I only got half way through the last published book. I KNEW at that point that Martin had lost control and could not finish. His narrative was already starting to wander.

Fascinating analysis. The story starts with an existential threat and the challenge to galvanise humanity to drop its petty squabbles and band together. But that humanity turns out to be so dark and appalling, from sadistic killers to innocent little girls-turned, er, sadistic killers, that we're at the point of no credible endgame. Still love it though!

I said “wow” out loud multiple times while watching this. Such an insightful and profound framing of Martin and his struggle, and a powerful critique of postmodern nihilism as a writing lens! Thank you for taking the time to make this. Very happy to have found your channel.

This is an outstanding analysis. I don't agree that the story cannot be finished, but I do see your point. I always took the A Song of Ice and Fire series to be a sort of commentary on the ultimately self-defeating futility of constant warfare (the "Game of Thrones") while ignoring existential threats (the Others/White Walkers/"Winter Is Coming"), with a small glimmer of hope coming from a few very flawed people who would somehow manage to put aside their differences at the last minute, deal with the threat, and then restore some kind of peace in the lands. I think that, that's still possible to do; but I think that there's the "meta" situation to keep in mind: George Martin has made his money and he's getting old: he has no incentive to finish the story and he is probably just getting mentally and physically (as well as spiritually) exhausted. On top of that, consider that popular culture has changed since the story started, and the "gritty, realistic" albeit extremely cynical things that caused the story to be so popular in the beginning (e.g., the shocking violence -- to include mutilation, torture, murder, and rape -- as well as exploring taboos such as incest) might open him up for the kind of intense criticism that he would rather not deal with. But yeah, having such a pointless nihilistic world-view probably contributes to his lack of drive. And maybe, as you said, not finishing the story is the most appropriate way to end it.

The point about Martin (and the show) writing a work that averts the "chosen hero" trope is fascinating to me. I think this is very clearly one of GRRM's beliefs and goals for the series but the story he crafts inadvertently undermines this authorial intention. People in A Song of Ice and Fire are, ultimately, meant to be normal, flawed people rather than chosen heroes born with a special destiny or marked for greatness by ancient prophecy. And yet, the books are full of characters who are very obviously possess superhuman capabilities. Daenerys can walk into a burning pyre and emerge unscathed, the Stark children are wargs and otherwise possessed of abilities all but forgotten south of the Wall. While these powers are not consistent (they seem to be capable of "skipping a generation" or not passing down to certain individuals, such as Viserys, who lacks Dany's fire resistance) they do very clearly and indisputably originate from blood lineage. Bran Stark, for example, is a warg *because he's a Stark*. While he has to improve on his skill and powers like any other skill, the mere ability to do it is something he and very few other people possess. I would argue that, while fascinating, this element of the story undermines the deconstruction of the chosen hero and also the story's emphasis on the injustice of Westerosi society. The story shows us again and again that being of the right bloodline or coming from a great house is no guarantee of greatness or moral virtue. Quite the contrary: many characters from great and powerful houses are arrogant, corrupt, and complacent in their power and wealth. But like, the Starks literally *can form telepathic bonds with and control animals or even humans* in a way that Lannisters or Tyrells or Baratheons cannot. It makes the Starks (and Targaryens and others who have such abilities) into something more than normal humans which undermines the theme of the story about being flawed, normal people trying to make do in a world of chaos and violence. It's hard to say that special destinies don't exist when they very clearly do.

I agree with your contention that ASOIF grew complicated beyond Martin's control and won't and can't be finished, but I understood the reasons for this a little differently. Ill admit i haven't read any of Martin's other works or looked into his personal beliefs at all, so maybe thats why. I hadn't heard about ASOIF until HBO, but before I'd finished watching Season 1, i had read all the books. And the feeling i got was not that Martin was trying to tell a different mythology or subvert mythology or the fantasy genre, but rather that he was trying to write fantasy that was as plausible and realistic as possible, and failed to account for the fact that stories have endings and real history does not. The series reminded me more of the way i felt when I read Froissart's history of the Hundred Years War than when i read Lord of the Rings or any other fiction. I didn't really ascribe the bleakness of ASOIF to postmodernism or draft-dodge guilt (probably because Ive never studied Martin outside the books). Bleakness, overwhelming complications and the futility of grand designs is hard to avoid when reading history as well. Sure, a lot of history Ive read was probably written by recent historians who themselves have a postmodern and cycnical bent, but thats why i mentioned Froissart. He can't be considered revisionist because he was basically the first draft. The subject matter is just factually pretty dark. People are always dying of the plague or infection before they can complete their political goals. Sons throw away the lands their fathers died to gain. The people remembered as heroes, like the Black Prince and Henry V and Jean D'Arc, are all the ones who died young with great potential, the ones remembered as villains are those who grew old enough for their mistakes to catch up with them. The war went on longer than Froissart could keep writing about it, and nearly as soon as it petered out, the equally complicated Wars of the Roses started up in England. The technology and society of ASOIF matches up really well to the 14th and 15th century in Europe, so that is the easiest comparison, but the same things pop up all over history. So to me, when i read ASOIF, it really felt like Martin was always asking himself "would this really happen this way?" And whenever it came time for the plot to branch, the answer was "yes it would." And whenever there was an opportunity to resolve a complication, the answer was "no." And also, early on in the books, i thought he was setting up a world where the magic would grow more and more powerful, as an intentional subversion of the trope that is represented by Tolkien's elves and wizards being on their way out of the world. But he didn't really do that at all. By the later books i kind of felt like he was trying to tone it down and rationalize it, almost as if he was ashamed to have brought it in to begin with. (Obviously, in this regard, and in regard to trying to tie up loose ends quickly, HBO went in completely the opposite direction as soon as the written source material ran out). So my take is: he tried to write a dramatization of an imagined but very realistic history, and he forgot that history has no end. We pull stories from history, and clean them up so that can have a beginning and a middle and an end and a message. That is how myths begin. It is super, super hard to break out a meaningful bit into a story without also breaking the reality of it. Martin took a pretty good run at it for 30 years, but i don't think he's going to make it. History isn't a garden. It is the Amazon, and i absolutely love that metaphor you made.

The purpose of art isn't to merely recreate life, but to carve away the trivial and distill life down into only what is meaningful. Muddying things up with Gondor's tax policy does not create sophistication, it just makes things unfocused. The juice is half pulp.

Because it's basically a soap opera. I don't think it was ever intended to have a hard ending.

"no complex world can prevail if it lacks underlying mythological value" You have me already

The problem with Martin is 3-fold: 1 - He's never treated it like a job. There's an old writer's panel where he was sitting with Stephen King and King couldn't believe Martin's attitude. To paraphrase King - "I write. I sit down every day and I write. It doesn't matter if it's good, bad, or doesn't make sense. I write my book and let others tell me if it's any good." Martin is all about taking his sweet time to slowly polish his work. 2 - He's OBSESSED with being a "gardener" to the point of using it as a crutch. It's his free pass to allow the plots threads to go out of control. 3 - By his on admission, he practically writers out a skeleton overview of every branching decision in his stories like some demented "choose your own adventure" player who is trying to find the route he prefers, rather than just writing the story and reworking things as he goes.

Beneath the Santa Claus beard and a chin that has more sequels than his legacy, GRRM's face looks like Hide The Pain Harold when you zoom in on it.

Wow yes thank you. I always felt this, I never finished Game of Thrones nor the House of the Dragon because they are so incredibly depressing. I don't need to see Oberryn get his face smashed in nor do I need to see a boy getting pulled to shreds by a dragon. Why? The heroes keep dying! It's terrible. I know his writing is supposed to reflect reality but even our world has some hope, acts of greatness and kindness. During the war of the roses great acts of cruelty where commonplace but honour as well. Humans come with this darkness and light in them, Tolkien took this fact and built a world around it. Martin seems to concentrate on just the dark.

It might be a mess. But it's the most amazing mess I've ever seen and when I start to read it, I cannot stop.

The truth is: GRRM will never finish his story.

In anime they often take something cute and pair it with some very dark story elements, not to destroy the whole genre but to make it more interesting. Madoka Magica would be a good example. Or the other way would be, to take interesting setups like post-apocalypse and make something relaxing out of it, where not much happens. Girls Last Tour would be the best example.

You know, even at the time I was in love with ASoIaF the most, I thought there was something off. About a decade later, there is a RU-vidr to formulate it pretty well. Good job and I hope you get more subs soon.

People need to have in consideration that Martin and Tolkien are extremely different writers and although he hugely respects Tolkien, he purposefully goes against him. Tolkien is not part of his inspiration when talking about themes or tone, he's attracted to the sort of Frank Herbert or Lovecraft, he definitely takes more inspiration from them than from LotR. George has writen dozens of horror short stories, so his fantasy epic leaning on the grim dark side is expected, it's his thing. That being said, if you say there's no hope in ASoIaF you haven't read it properly, there's a lot of hopeful moments, heroic moments, moments of "we're getting justice for the atrocities commited againts us". Lord Manderly's speech about the North remembers, Arya thinking of Jon's smile while she hides Needle, Brienne's "No chance, and no choice" badass moment while she risks her life to save orphans, etc etc. By the end we will see house Stark on top, that's for certain, the original title for the last book was A Time for Wolves. "To touch the light, first you must go beneath the shadow" I'll just agree that the story got too big and he's having issues because the monster grew too many tentacles, I want to think he will finish it, but every year that passes I doubt it more.

Martin should have focused on telling a straightforward story with a beginning, middle, and end instead of trying to deconstruct EVERY fantasy trope and convention under the sun just to show everyone how SMRT and superior to Tolkien he is.

Hi, so I'm dealing with some of these issues. Any advice? The world got too big too fast and then I ended up terrified of screwing up my vision. So far I've just been subtracting complexity in ways I'd consider more imaginative than what put me in my frozen state. I typed this comment before finishing the first part and was going to keep writing the post as you made your points. I thought I'd have more questions but I feel much better about my situation and decisions. I don't think I can remember the last time I clicked a video looking for answers on how I should be moving forward and actually finished the video with actual answers. Thank you! Idk if this video was meant as writing advice but it did exactly what I was hoping for when I clicked it. So seriously, thanks.

Even the original Warhammer and 40K had the vain slimmer of hope in the settings. Think about that, two settings that were made to be as bleak as possible had what A Song of Ice and Fire lacks.

Given how grimdark he made the series into, far darker than even real-life Medieval Europe, it's hard to make a good ending. If the "good guys" win, then the grimdark fans bitch about how much of a cop-out it was. If the ending is grimdark, then people lose investment in the characters because the story is practically torture porn already, and more bad things happening isn't going to change the views of the audience.

The most important thing in a phantasy story is the question regarding the economic policy of the king and how he dealt with climate change.

Martin may well make another book, but at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the story is never finished. Part of me even wonders if that might not be for the best. I only ever learned about Martin's other works after reading the books, and they all led me to believe that if the story did ever end, it would be a depressing one. There is nothing but misery to be had out of the story at this point and going forward.

Just found out this video and your channel. Love it. Translate everything I had in my head, to myself

Beautifully constructed video, I'm looking forward to watching more of your work!

"Martin is trying to be a gardener in the Amazon." Loved this bit.

What isn't postmodernism these days?

As infuriating as that author/gardener analogy was to me when I first saw it some years ago (this is NOT how gardening works!!), it did explain Martin's failure instantly. Not only the doomed method, but also the arrogance that stopped him from seeing this.

An excellent video! Really articulated the sort of stuff I had been feeling for a long time, but couldn't really put into words. I loved the Amazonian jungle line. Perfect.

Now I know some people have issue with Brandon Sanderson but in the Stormlight Archive he sets up 3 characters in the first book and of those 3 each get their own book in a sense. Two additional characters are introduced over those books who also get their own books focusing on their perspectives and they don’t just pop out of nowhere like Dorne just appeared out of nowhere for ASOIAF. There are also interludes which show you other perspectives, characters and places. Even these make it into the main story as well. He apparently plans to finish this series with the fifth book and there will be another part consisting of another five. There’s also an apocalypse in this series as well where two races are fighting for their survival and also some revelations along the way. All of this ties in with the universe that is expanded by several other series with some reoccurring characters. Especially Hoid, who is kind of the Loki of the universe in that he brings change and a little bit of chaos wherever he goes. There’s also calamity and destruction but just as much room is left for hope and redemption. Anyway, that’s just my take on it and that man writes like a machine too.

People kept comparing him to Tolkien when the series came out. I kept tellin' 'em...

as a gardener my self with a degree on it (finally i can flex) I think the metaphor is very accurate. as task would be to create human order out of natures chaos and then maintain this order. there is never a point where one can sit back and actually enjoy the garden, only to stand up and observe where is the next problem to be corrected. it is all a great cycle of work. but his garden is just all over the place. his flowerbeds might not have weeds but the flowers bloom all at different times and half wont survive the winter, decision that was only driven solely because he happened to like how they looked, not by how it all looks like in the end. it is like he is entertaining ideas and disregarding them once he looses interest. which does not create order or controlled chaos, but rather merely a new chaos. if his books were a rose bush, it would be wild and festering thing that would be better dug out and tossed than corrected. he is definitely not André Le Nôtre thats for sure. he would be more suited to scrub slime out of the fountains.

Many of these points of criticism apply to the genre of Grimdark in general. And if you combine it with the Four-Turnings view of history (the “hard times, strong men” cycle, whatever you wanna call it), the assumption is that Grimdark stories would only resonate in a real world that is itself Grimbright. Meaning, when trust in institutions is low and people feel powerless to change things, but the world around them is (still) in comparatively good shape. Yet, for precisely these “grim” reasons, everyone feels things are going downhill - sliding into a Grimdark future - and that’s why people develop a morbid obsession with fiction like Martin’s. Even though it’s frightening, you can’t look away. The worst effect of Game of Thrones however was how it pushed Grimdark into main stream sci-fi - even into former “Nobledark” shows, like Star Trek. I mainly blame Game of Thrones for Icheb getting his eye ripped out on-screen in Star Trek: Picard. 😁 The difference is: In fantasy, especially if it looks like historical fiction (Game of Thrones is very similar in concept to The Tudors, Borgia etc.), Grimdark feels like the dark past we left *behind* us. Kind of like people in the enlightenment (i.e., the Borgia days) liked to look down on the “barbaric” Middle Ages. Sci-Fi, however, is usually set in the future. If you make sci-fi Grimdark (and it’s not the “far future”, like in the namesake Warhammer 40,000), suddenly, the worst feels like it’s still *ahead* of us. And guess what - if you instil that attitude into enough people, it might just turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

17:28 you just described Hideaki anno with Eva gelion right there😂

We keep forgetting that HBO’s only focus was and is Profit, it hasn’t any artistic nor philosophical aspirations.

This, for me, is one of the challenges of the “gardening” method. If you start out with no story to tell, but simply hoping to “discover” the story as you write it, you run the risk of ending up where Martin has: five books in to a seven book series, and you still haven’t really found the story you’re looking for. Especially when you add to that Martin’s commitment to Postmodernism and his refusal to let any of his characters be “the Good Guy” he DOESN’T really have a story to tell. And he’s largely hidden this under all the complexity - part his style and part to cover up his lack of any real narrative goal. Reading up to where the books have gotten, it almost looks like the story will end Night of the Living dead style where everyone is so busy fighting over the damn throne the zombies ultimately win. Martin almost instinctively doesn’t want a hero to rise up, unite Westeros, and successfully fend off the Nightwalkers - so much so, that if the final season of the TV series accurately reflects Martin’s plan, the defeat of the Nightwalkers is almost a distraction to the civil war over the throne (instead of the main reason it needs to be resolved) and the way that struggle even turns Deanaris into a psychopath. All he’s done in the end is rip off Lloyd Alexander’s Westmark Trilogy, but made it “grimdark”.

What a beautiful hidden gem of a channel this is. I think exactly the same about the fourth book onwards.

Congratulations, you have a new subscriber. I look forward to seeing more of your channel.

A fascinating video, which I had to keep pausing to better absorb your points and also look at the very appropriate visuals. I guess your argument relies to some extent on the contention that Martin's original vision was, 'Nothing works, and everything turns to shit.' I'm wondering if that was actually true, or if there was the idea that there's a whole load of shit the main characters have to wade through before establishing some kind of firm ground ... eventually. This would be closer to the classic fantasy journey established by Tolkien (and his literary predecessors). The Heroes Journey, in fact. But looking at the ASOIAF works we actually have, its hard to argue that we are on track for anything like that. There were signs in the early books that some of the protagonists were making progress towards something constructive: notably Dani, John, Tyrion, Arya and, later, Jamie and Brienne. But in every case, their arcs have been wrenched so badly in a negative direction that its hard to see them recover without something earth-shaking. We would need multiple examples of Tolkien's eucatastrophy! And of course, Martin is known for just the opposite to this! Worse still, in many cases the negative directions are those of character and not circumstance, Tyrion and Arya being the most notable, and that's probably the most difficult to remedy. It is perhaps possible Martin wandered off track because of the 'gardening' approach to writing, even if his intention was originally something different. (I agree with you btw about the virtues of this method, from personal experience ... indeed I consider it almost something mystical). And so we are in a situation where all the protagonists are failing, despite their good intentions (to over-simplify somewhat). That would make Martin a pretty poor author though, having completely lost his way. Or, as you say, the intention was to cause this failure in the first place. And, I am increasingly forced to agree with you about this, because all the signs are that Martin has wrought this path of destruction intentionally. Even if it evolved organically, the overall direction seems increasingly clear ... downwards into chaos. In which case the novels could still be salvaged as a success (from GRR's POV), but the ending would be Ragnorok not Revelation. And, like you, I'm sceptical that the general audience would receive this with joy.

I have a feeling that Frank Herbert's Dune, is where GRRM got a lot of his inspiration. From his old sci-fi stories, to the first book in ASOIAF being very close to original Dune book, and the anti-religion, prophecy and monarchy themes are present in Dune too.

After the last 12 years of waiting, I feel like we're all ready to join house stark for how long we've been saying 'winds of winter is coming'

ASOIAF is the quintessential rationalist's mythology. Everything must correlate to our reality. Spirituality must be scrutinized out of existence. The problem is the stories we use to understand reality and our place in it cannot appeal solely on reason. They appeal to our desire to be good. And feel proud of ourselves. This need cannot be quantified. There is nothing materially logical about it. He once gloated that Tolkien took for granted that Aragorn's good character automatically meant a sound tax policy. How many people does he need to point out to him that fiscal policy is not what the LoTR is about?

I agree. I also think the Kingkiller Chronicle has the same problem. Scope creep basically made it so sprawling that it will take far more than the projected number of novels to finish the story.

Great video! I am glad to see the views go up! Keep it up!

In my mind HBO already finished it, horrible as it was. I have no desire to read anything more from Mr. Martin. That boat has sailed. He had ample time to write the ending he wanted but couldn't be bothered. I just don't care about it anymore.

@5:00 - how is daenyras not a chosen one? How are the white walkers not real magic? Is there anyone this side of psychopathy very enthused about the death and destruction coming with war? @9:00 how are the many generations surving thousands of years portrayed less than hopeful? Etc.

This is a very interesting video, but as a ASOIAF fan I have to disagree. (For the record I’m not gonna disagree at all with your complexity point as I think it is great and very accurate.) George isn’t inherently a cynic though. I do think he comes across more cynical for a few reasons: 1, characters like Briene, Tyrion, Sansa, have been to hell and back for their best deeds. For example, Tyrion saves kings landings and its thousands of inhabitants and in turn is brutally punished for it. Similar with briene. However the story isn’t done yet. Although Tyrion is in a very dark place in ADWD I think he will likely, after he does terrible things with Daenerys like burning cities, redeem himself in the war against the white walkers. Furthermore, a character like Jaime is all about redemption and trying to become better. He has been called a terrible, dishonorable person for all his adult like, but (especially though Briene) he learns to try to be a good person despite those things. The world punished him for his best deed, and yet he has been convinced to try to help people nevertheless. George makes it hard for Jaime, but Jaime is still shown to be doing the right thing by trying to help people. I also believe you are mixing the realism in ASOIAF with cynicism. Yes, George does deconstruct the honorable characters like Jon and make them do questionable things, but that is life. People are not perfect, good people do bad things. I would also like to talk about the whole how will the world end and everyone will die thing. This story isn’t about people all dying to the white walkers, it is about unifying against them. Jon and Jaime both break ideas of typical honor, Jon by breaking his oaths and Jaime by killings by aerys, to do the right thing. George criticizes flawed systems and shows that good, not perfect, people can persist and do good things. Furthermore, Jaime’s killing of Aerys demonstrates that the good actions of one person can help actually make a difference for many people, as thousands would have died if he hadnt done what he had done. George’s story is about deconstructing stereotypical heros and replacing them, but replacing them with people who can still do good , despite the terrible world around them. It’s about legends of hero’s beating the evil white walkers while showing all people, even heroes, have flaws. History has shown in this mythology the long night can be defeated, light can prevail over darkness, yet in a nuanced way with human characters Finally let’s look at Sam. George claims he is most like Sam. Although Sam is initially cinical, after being convinced by Jon, he gains courage to persist through the darkest most painful times beyond the wall and does good things along the way. He believes in helping the nights watch defeat the white walkers and accomplish long good deeds, despite the traumatic bullying and pain he has been through.

A friend of mine just made this observation about why Martin won’t finish WoW: “The thing is, if somebody has had a very hard life and had to work every minute of his time to just keep his head above water, and you give them a whole sackload of money, they might discover there are better things in life than glueing your butt to a chair writing for eight hours a day.”

For me, the main problem with deconstructive stories is that there's no longevity for them, and either they return to the "cliches" they hate so much (Worm and Invincible) or become parodies of themselves (The Boys and Marvel Ruins). You might love the boobs, the gory battles, the moral ambiguity, or the intrincacy of their worlds, but at the end of the day, you come back to Superman, Goku, Saitama, Spiderman, All-Might and all those "boring and OP" characters for the same reasons they're iconic, and why doing any "modern" change to them fails horribly: they're *aspirational heroes,* they're admirable. They have virtues and lessons that inspires us, that've been inspiring humanity for millennia, no matter where one's from. Not to mention, their worlds are full of life, of fun, of camp and possibilities beyond "who's going to die this time" or "what morally reprehensible thing the MC will do".

Tolkien didn't get lost in the Silmarillion? He started it as a young adult and died never having finished it lol. Sauron in the oldest version of Beren and Luthien is a cat. Much that we see as the Silmarillion's focus and wholeness was the tireless work of his son Christopher.

I wouldn't be suprised if the ending of the TV series that people hated was infact based on his notes and directions, on seeing the reaction Martin realized he couldn't use that and is unable to create anything more.

This was an awesome and unique take on the situation. Great listen!

Deconstructionists: "It takes too long to mow the lawn. I must take apart my lawn mower and re-assemble it as a better machine that will cut the lawn in faster time." They just smash it with a hammer, leave the broken pieces lying around, and blame John Deere when their lawn is 16" tall and snakes are coming into the house.

you sure do a lot of making claims and very little (aka none) providing support. You throw buzz words around like "post modern" to make your unexplained opinion sound more smart and intellectual so people leave this video thinking they watched anything of substance. All you did was record yourself stating Martin is a hippie and you don't like how his story doesn't have one big, clear message of hope or how to make things better. Write a better video. Idk that you disagree with what you think Song of Ice and Fire is trying to do. At least support your ideas.

Did you even read the books? If you did, it must have been a long time ago. This video seems to be more about an extremely general idea of what the books appear to be, than what they really contain. You actually say very little in this video about the books.

A story has a beginning, a middle and an end. If you don't have an ending, you don't have a story at all.

In the end, cynicism is the snarky, scoffing voice frequently chiding, "How childish, I could do better." Then when it finally gets a chance, it dreams big, admittedly, then devolves into shock horror, vulgarity and then pisses about not getting to an ending because, well when nothing matters, it's hard to leave an impactful ending, isn't it? Because by the end of this, who's going to care?

Holy crap you quoted, "Fire and Ice," my favorite poem. I rarely see that one quoted. Cheers!

07:14 It's exactly this I thought a while ago, when thinking why the work didn´t resonated with me anymore. - there's no ultimate thing to take out of the work. It's a bit hard to underdstand that "war and agression are futile", if everything is also futile.

I love that You used memes while explaining Martin's attitude towards his books. Actually some memes are quite educative.

A very interesting perspective, thankyou for sharing it.