Anyone experiencing “frame flex” should report this issue to the NHTSA (National Highway, Transportation, and Safety Agency) by going to their website and file a complaint. Only by doing this can the agency compile the information and data needed to determine if any recall is necessary. The more information provided to the agency will cause these manufacturers to make the necessary changes or modifications to their products! Keep up the good work by giving consumers unbiased information.
@timlord4172 you are so right! Unfortunately the RV industry isn't going to change unless they are forced by the government. REPORT, REPORT, REPORT!!! Report to the NHTSA, report to Consumer Reports, report to the Better Business Bureau!!!! As they say "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"!!! Regulation is the only way forward to fix poor quality, poor quality control, and poor customer service!
Frame flex is caused by these idiots towing with more power than they know how to use. Ford chevy and dodge want to give everyone 500hp and 1000 ft lbs. And those people want to tow massive trailers that they have no business towing. Tow mode should cut power in half. The big 3, rv manufacturers and the operators are working together to make the roads unsafe.
Great video on FRAME FAILURE. It was truly a GRAND video by DESIGN. Please do the world a huge favor and explain the benefit of doing wheel bearing repacks by hand vs the EZ LUBE (ez way) and replacing components with quality such as Timken instead of the cheap bearings from the factory. If I bought a new RV the first thing I would do is do the bearing service by hand and put in quality components.
Hi Richard, thanks for watching! Yes, I need to do an episode on wheel bearings. I really don't know why every RV has EZ lube on it. For anyone else reading this comment, EZ lube is not inherently bad, it just does not allow you to inspect the bearings every year like you need to. Bearings can only be inspected by removing the hub and grease seal, so you need a new grease seal, bearing check and repack every 12 months. As for Timken, nothing wrong with them. In my experience repacking tons of bearings and helping lots of people on the side of the road who had a bearing fail, it was always dues to a lack of maintenance. I never had a situation where a RV less than a year old had a bearing go bad. That is just my experience, I'm sure there may be cases where cheaper china-made bearings failed prematurely.
The best way for me to avoid frame failure? I'm replacing my Grand Design rig with Northwoods manufactured Arctic Fox. They build their own frames in-house and use heavier materials and better designs. No frame failure on these rigs.
They do lack the fluff that so many people love. After 45 years of RVing, all the fluff in the new units doesn't matter much to me. I want structure on my next rig. 2.25" thick walls, 8 1/2 feet width and heavy weight are the things I am looking for.
@@brucelahargoue7872 Those are why are will go Alliance next time for a full profile. No in command, no fancy screens to fumble through and not work. I love the AF, but they just don't have a single floor plan i like.
I bought a 2024 Forest River Cougar 316RLSSE. I immediately replaced the pin box with a Reese Goose Box. It has an integrated airbag and is the only goose hitch Lippert approves. So far, so good. 6:15
Im glad he stated about how a 5th Wheel camper frame over the bed of the truck could break down going down the road. Especially with Grand Designs issues and missing lag bolts on the sides by bed area and who knows where else. Its a extreme liability risk for the owner to take these down the road. Some RV dealers do not even want a used Grand Design 5th wheels on their lot. They are hard to sell.
I am shocked that you didn't mention improper installation of hitches in trucks is a major contributer to frame failure. We see a lot of welders mount their own hitches way too far back because of the welding machine. We have one in the shop right now being rebuilt because of this problem. We also see DIY guys mount their hitches back behind the axile just because they thought it was the right way to do it. Thank you for educating the RV world. I enjoy your page.
My 2021 keystone fuzion 379 is in the shop now getting this repaired.. frame welds broke and sidewall cracked.. awaiting the finished work.. Keystone has been pretty good with the warranty repairs
Imho many welds I’ve seen are horrible, but… often the photos and videos of failures feature fractures in the base metal. Not an engineer but I was surprised at how thin walled some of those frame members are. Glad to hear Lippert is trying to improve their welding.
Shouldn't ever happen. Will only take one accident. 32 years welding and manufacturing. They are liable. Them frames are junk and shouldn't be on the road. Watch the new liz amazing video
I think the fifth wheel length has a lot to do with the problem, but I rarely see that mentioned. What is the length of RVs that start to show frame failure? 35 feet, 38 feet, 40 feet, more? Is there a trend with the length?
I am a little unsure on what exactly is involved with this. The superstructure build of the rig is up to the manufacturer, of course, but there are also Federal roadworthiness / safety standards that have to be met. This industry avoids engineering like the plague-in fact, they call non-PE employees like CAD and technician staff “engineers” routinely since they don’t employ real ones like customers would expect they are paying for at those prices-so I’m not sure how much of the final as-built design is signed off by the manufacturer, by Lippert, or both. (Prevost is an exception on engineering because they are building certified commercial transport coaches in Canada that are getting converted into RV’s.)
@@TonyBenton0728 Generally true, though there are at least one or two custom coach builders who design and build 5th-wheel units as well, often designed to be pulled by semi-tractors or similar, and they will also involve all the engineers needed to meet commercial standards.
Another thing to think about is everyone’s desire to go solar for dry camping. Every extra battery adds weight and it’s adding it to one side of the trailer . I have seen videos and RVers have added 4-6-8 batteries for the their solar panels , 2,4,6,8 of them for desire to dry camp or off the grid camp. The battery weight is up front and on one side and is definitely going to affect torsion on the frame. Maybe you could look at this in one of your videos.
Compared to what manufacturers market the storage-bay area as capable of handling, an extra couple of 100Ah lithium batteries shouldn’t be a make-or-break unless you’ve already got that front end loaded up. I looked at a travel trailer the other day that is marketed for boondocking. By the time you added full water, clothing, and food for a week, you would be towing right at max. GVW. In an industry notorious for not engineering their vehicles, that’s a bad margin and risk.
It's not just the batteries that you have to think about. You have the weight of the panels, the electrical converter, and various other components. Plus all the extra things you take with you to boondock.
With the large storage areas created by drop frame construction, overloading the 5th wheel is much easier than you can image. BTW, that's why I used flexible solar panels instead of rigid ones. I estimated an additional roof weight of 500 lbs using rigid solar panels vs 150 lbs using flexible. With the advent of lithium batteries, additional weight from batteries is a "red herring". My 15 kw lithium battery bank weighs less than four group 24 batteries. For comparison, 15 kw lithium battery bank is about equal to about 14 group 24 batteries in available wattage.
Solar with lithium batteries adds a little weight but not significant unless one adds crazy numbers of large glass panels. The batteries are, of course, quite a bit lighter than the OE lead-acid batteries, which can be 120lbs-160lbs by themselves. The MAIN issue is that the overall loaded hitch weight should be within reason and the GVWR of the rig is never exceeded, and the pin box and hitch are approved designs. My gut tells me that a sprung pin box (air suspended or rubber torsion) that provides a few inches of cushion to the frame, must be a huge factor in reducing the risk. But the single most key factor, IMO, is HOW the rig was built. It seems likely from the evidence I've seen that those rigs they rely on body structure in a sort of semi-monocoque design to supplement the frame, have serious assembly issues in the walls-frame interface.
I think a lot of shock to the front of the frames is from the stiff trucks and fifth wheel hitches. I use the trailer saver air bag fifth wheel hitch. My 5’er floats up and down and we take all the shock in the truck😂
Just so you know, we have a Hensley Trailer Saver 5th wheel hitch as well as a Gen-Y Executive pin box and we are currently sitting here in Elkhart waiting to drop off our 2022 Grand Design Momentum 395ms-r for frame failure. Now, we have early stages of it and it has been confirmed that we have it but I do believe the 5th wheel hitch, Gen-Y, and most of all, our MORryde Independent suspension/disc brakes have been a big factor in minimizing the frame failure.
When failures occur, the actual loads have exceeded the strength of the materials used. Minor changes to frame sections and materials are just bandaids on such marginal designs. Most companies that design vehicles and aircraft should understand the engineering basics and spend the time and money required to provide adequate margins to resist the shock loads, vibrations, accelerations and fatigue cycles expected in service. When manufacturers, suppliers, customers and agencies understand the true costs of delivering inadequate products to their markets, we can expect better results.
I have a bumper pull and within 1000 miles the BAL frame failed on the back right spring shackle, broke away because the weld around the rear shackles broke through the beam and resulted in overheating and poor adhesion. Left stranded in Colorado for 14 days and a bent axle, Dexter finally stepped up for the axle. The front shackles were fine, and were obviously done by another welder.
We just purchased a Grand Design Reflection, 35' 5th wheel, used. I had it checked for frame failure, looked for any signs of lag bolts backing out or breaking, was not able to see if all the lag bolts are installed because we didn't want to pull the carpet, but so far looks good. This is not one of the larger units that most seem to have failures. I'm just curious how far back this problem goes, what years should people be looking out for and what brands have the frame, structure, part of the system... Thanks for the informative videos.
@@timlord4172 Thanks - why do you think Covid problems started in 2015? I would day anything built after 2020 - 2022 are the real ones to look out for. Why would it go back to 2015 since that is 5 years prior to Covid issues.
@@belleridg7495 they've been getting reports of frame flex on GD back until 2014. There are a few other RU-vidrs that have been asking people to reach out to them and just give them their year make and model of frame flex to collect data. Numerous reports start in 2014 models.
I think you need to watch All About RV's recent video from just before June 1, 2024. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rDAQAeaCoV4.html. They have a little over 35' GD. The owner did excellent video. GD has increased warranty to 5 years, but it remains to be seen how smooth the experience will be.( I do not have a GD. I was doing a bit of research on structural elements on beams, truss, and other elements with a level change.)
I have Jayco eagle HT 29.5bhds. I'm trying to figure out what is going on with it. Molding is moving around on the side and is now under the side wall. Camping World worked on it twice and call it water damage so I had to pay for the repair.
Jacob - Is this type of design (relying on the walls to make up for an under-specified frame) something an RV buyer can identify themselves? I have owned RVs (including one 5th wheel) continuously since 1998 and while I have seen and experienced my share of RV quality problems, this one is truly egregious. I believe that many RV buyers would not have made the purchase had they known that the frame was not strong enough to support the weight of the RV by itself. If the RV industry believes that this type of design is not a problem, then why not just be honest about it and tell the customer up front? The customer could then vote with their dollars. .
Then to add insult to injury, the superstructure attachment method used "lag screws into 2x2 aluminum stuffed with wood"! This is an RV industry wide practice that needs to change. If the RV superstructure is supposed to be part of the frame supporting network, then the attachment method needs to be much more robust!!!!
I bought a grand design in November & was advised before purchasing I could switch the pinbox to a approved GenY hitching system. Saying it is approved by GD. Just some insight from a customer.
The only problem with that is if the frame was made by Lippert .... they may not honor it. I spoke directly with Lipert at the Tampa trade show about this and they only allowed two types of made to switch out to. One was their own (they now make one) and the other was the new Reese (can tell with the air shocks. Same with the rear class three on fifth wheels. Lippert will not honor frame if you pull even a two trailer behind your rig under the specs of the tow capable. THey stated it puts too much stress on the rear frame of fifth when taking corners etc. Buyer beware!
The true reason lippert doesn't want to honer the gen y is they tried to buy the gen y out & they refused. Lippert wants control over everything unfortunately. Supposedly gen y passed with flying colors at Lipperts test in Indiana, where they test the hitching device with their frames.
I have a 2014 Puma unleashed 359thks and I'm having problems with front walls bulging outwards around the front windows by causing some interior issues and aluminum siding flexing out ,not sure if I have a frame problem or just failure of wall structure causing this problem, have you heard of issues with this brand and year of 5th wheel. Thanks
Regarding tip nbr 2 Don’t modify pin box. I have purchased an older 5th wheel and have an issue with pin box hitting side rails of truck. As trailer is already running nose high has been suggested a turning point pin box would eliminate the side rail damage potential. Does your suggestion of not changing pin boxes cover this situation?
So, when Gen-Y and Reese (Goosebox) say their cushioned pinboxes are "Lippert-approved"...that means nothing? Yikes! How would one find out if their mid-2010s 5er is safe to swap the OEM rigid pinbox for one of these newer gooseneck cushioned devices???
Frame Failure. Our GDRV Solitude is a 2019 and no signs of this problem. Fulltime 4 years and 25K miles, it has been a great RV. It seems to me that maybe this problem is happening to units manufactured like after 2022? Did GDRV change the design specs? Cost reduction changes to frame design? I read Lippert says the maximum pin weight allowed for the 1621 5th wheel frame is 25% of GVWR. I have never seen this written anywhere, but that is what they say. Our GVWR is 16,800. So our max allowed pin weight would calculate to 4.200. Our actual pin weight is 3,550 and axle weight is 11,950 for a total loaded weight of 15,500.
What are your thoughts on Andersen Hitches or PullRite SuperLite Hitches? It doesn't modify the pinbox at all but I know that Lipert has tried to blame some frame issues on these type of hitches. Warranty issues aside, just curious your thoughts on these types of hitches.
Either the government or insurance companies need to require that all critical systems, such as plumbing, electrical and structural (including the frame) be signed off by a licensed professional engineer. And if some PE stamps a deficient design, that PE can be disciplined. And if the manufacturer fails to build to spec, they need to be held liable.
@@OmahaWayne There is a legitimate role for government. Of course, we generally go way beyond that. But basic protections for consumers and ensuring products aren't designed in a way that risks lives is well within the proper scope of government. That is, unless you want to drive on roads and through intersections designed by fry cooks, use bridges designed by ball-park ticket takers or ingest a prescription pill made by the someone in their rat infested basement.
@@michaelmayfield4304 Hey, now THAT'S a good point! "An armed society is a polite society." Hmmm, is it impolite to knowingly market substandard frames just to make another dollar?
Lippert bought out all the other rv frame manufacturers . Lippert could use metals that are lighter but stronger. The frame is 1/3 responsable the rv manufacture 1/3 respo sable and the rv owner c is 1/3 responsable . I havs a 2012 8280 ws rockwood fifth wheel and we ran the wheels off of it and so far so good. We never run the rv to full weight capacity .denis from santa rosa ca .
Responsible. But yeah, Flagstaff/Rockwood make one of THE BEST quality 5th wheels on the market. I special ordered my 2021 36' 529RBS has been flawless.
If the frame is designed for the suspension compliance of an F350 and you modify its suspension, to increase load capacity for instance, then you’re headed for failure as well. An F650 would cause the same problem. If it’s designed for 5 weekends of camping 100 miles from home and you full time and go 25,000 miles you’re headed for failure. Engineers are pretty good at designing things to meet a set of requirements, but don’t go past the limits. Airplanes have all those limits spelled out so you won’t break anything. You have limited info for your trailer.
But they are advertised and sold as Full Time Approved. They don’t say only drive 100 miles on the weekends a few times a year. Why make excuses for Grand Design? Would you accept this type of failure possibility in a car that you bought? A year or two in and the car’s frame is broken and somebody supports the manufacturer of that garbage by saying it’s your fault, you should have only driven it 100 miles on the weekends a few times per year?
@@robertfoster8500 I think what the OP is saying is "your mileage may vary," an "excuse" that auto manufacturers have been using for decades. If you actually use the peak 0-60 acceleration time as advertised for your vehicle at every single stop, then the engine, drivetrain, suspension and chassis will wear prematurely. And, consequently, you will never reach the advertised City/Hwy Combined MPG. It is not necessarily an excuse, but a recognition that our choices have consequences. Speaking as a U.S. Marine who did maintenance in Marine combat squadrons for years, the OP is exactly correct. We scrupulously track G-forces, for instance, which is the very issue that the OP is bringing out. G-forces are cumulative and do not go away between flights or campgrounds. You can't let the RV "rest" and expect it to be all better. Pilots are told the aircraft can handle this much but use it wisely (like a budget) because afterward it may be down for months due to air frame stress repairs. The OP is simply stating the same in RV terminology. Getting "white papers" from the RV engineers would be very enlightening! But marketing will never allow that. As the OP concluded, "You have limited info for your trailer."
Earth movers seem to hold up just fine. It is giant on a budget that causes the problem. Overbuild a bit, and you have a cushion for the unforeseen. Quarter inch steel is not more dangerous or complex than 3/16" steel.
I'm pretty sure if you can come up with a monitor on how much a cow farts. You can come up with a safety monitor on how much weight is on that fifth wheel. Yes I know it will be an upgrade charge. And yes I know I just gave away another billion dollar idea.😊
Shouldn't Lippert have their engineer's validate the specs for client designed frames? If they build flawed designs it will (and has) affect their reputation. I don't see building "to spec" as a valid excuse.
Just watched a video of a Lippert factory where all their frame rails are robotically cut and welded. Are the non certified welds from cross bracing or something or do they robotically weld all components now? 🤔
Can you link the video? The only robotic welding at Lippet video I've seen is on the axle assembly line. I'd love to see the video you are referring to. Thanks!
I-beams are strongest for verticle support (including flex) in that direction. They are not good at lateral support though but engineering two I-beam pin box supports tied together like a truss would give that lateral support and then they would have the forces managed in both directions without excessive weight and cost. The solution to this problem doesn't have to be complicated or costly, just the right brains making the right decisions. The concept of an RV 'structure' sharing the support of the frame like Lippert claims is BS. Those structures are simply not designed for that kind of stress so the frame itself should be. The RV manufacturers may submit their 'specs' but it is still on Lippert (and Lippert's liability) to have the final say whether that manufacturer spec ever sees the light of day.
I got a 2021 montanna 35’ legacy with full body paint bought it new, I now have a crack in the wall outside bottom left side of the bed slide started to notice a squeak in the bed room floor between bed and closet in a area where I don’t walk only stand in that area when making the bed. Now there’s a soft spot there now. And also having a kitchen slide problem my dealer replaced the gear packs one on each end was all good for two trips . Now they can’t get the slide to come back out. So as of now my dealer is telling me that keystone is Going to be calling me. Just found this out yesterday. I’m single and retired and not very happy about all this. Would like to just walk away from this trailer. Love this floor plan, but my gutt feeling is telling me to walk away from it. Starting to look at Aliance and brinkley, not sure what to do at this point. Kind of between two rocks Gess I will have to see what keystone has to say.
Reading the comments I am surprised at how many say “Don’t buy an RV / they’re all junk”. WTH are these people following an RV FB Group or YT channel for? I’ve been RVing since I was a little boy in the 60’s, first with my parents and then as an adult. I wouldn’t change that for anything. I’m currently the owner of a 2022 Grand Design Momentum 376THS toy hauler and RV full time. Yes, I have had frame failure on this unit. Yes, I’ve had the superstructure framing issues where the few staples they put in to fasten a cabinet to the wall has pulled out. Yes, I’ve paid well north of $100k for this. And no, Grand Design has nary acknowledged my complaints other than say to take it to a dealer to have it looked at. Which I know will take months to schedule and then weeks or months to do the actual repairs. So basically they were no help at all. But I mostly expected that, because that’s the crappy way of business these days - in every industry not just in the RV industry. So, I’m a very handy guy, decent carpenter and since I grew up on a farm where everyday you just do whatever needs to be done, and am very familiar with welding and steel fabrication, I just simply went ahead and used construction adhesive, added reinforcement, used airnailer instead of staples, and used screws to supplement the nails and everything is fine and I have 100% confidence it will hold well. Frame Failure: I don’t have access to a welder anymore, but found a small town welder guy that was willing to do what I told him to do; we put in 14 gussets in the hitch area/front upper deck frame area (from the factory there are only 4), reinforced the 1/16 ‘tin’ the outriggers along the main rails with 1/4 plate steel, and two channel irons front and back supporting the spring hangers which will also serve as a force equalizer and is tight up against the gray and black tanks giving them extra support as well - which makes me confident about keeping the tanks up in place even if travelling with them full. Yes, I think the frame on my Grand Design is built too light and too cheaply, and yes, in my experience the LCI weld quality to atrocious, but investing just a few extra thousand dollars and a bit of time and I’ve got a bulletproof RV. I think a lot of people just need to stop all their whining, accept that there is risk in ownership of anything. They need to forget about entitlement, forget about the mfg warranty, avoid all the headaches of dealerships and associated downtime, and just go ahead and spend $3000 now to truly fix your RV the way it should have been built in the first place, and to which most people readily admit they’d of been happy to spend $3000 more in the first place to be done and gone with the problems. Get those stresses out of your life / and move on so you can enjoy your RV.
Forewarned is forearmed. I went the "reinforce before failure" route, putting preemptive repair $$$ into a brand-new RV. The common problem areas are well published by now. An ounce of prevention, and all of that. How many old cliches exist that we don't heed? Same approach, though. Accept responsibility, do something about it, then sit back and relax in confidence.
I have just bought a prime time fifth wheel, and a question that came to my mind is. The RV has a 16000 GVWR, but it is equipped with two 7000 lb axles. How is this possible
Hitch weight. 5th wheels can have 2000-4500 lbs on the hitch. Be sure and weight your rig after everything is loaded to make sure you are not exceeding axle capacity or your gross combined vehicle weight to prevent engine/ transmission damage.
@@bobertforher In my Tool-Free RV Maintenance course I explain how to find a CAT scale and get axle weights. Pin box weight is a topic I need to add a training module for, but it is simple. You just need to weigh your truck rear axle with the RV hooked up, and then again without it, and the difference in weight on the rear axle of your truck is the actual pin weight. Thanks for watching!
@@undercoverrvtech I am binge watching EVERY EPISODE!! I am going to get the class as well. How do you feel about still getting a professional to do an inspection since we are so new? Also, if we have always tentatively camped and the boys in the family love it but I hate it-I would prefer to clamp, would you suggest renting an RV for a weekend and then making the final decision to purchase? I have never slept or stayed in an RV but the lifestyle is pulling on my heart. Some background-I want to make memories while I can, if that makes sense. The future is very uncertain.
Shill ??? Where do you come up with these words? I thought that word was created and used exclusively for that shill btbrv :). I think GD is the main problem with the failure but I think if lippert had real welders it wouldn't have been so bad. Another brand was having issues with holding tanks dropping out at a higher then normal rate for a brief period. When you looked at the tank it was obvious that the weld failed because it was bad. I guarantee the spec didn't say put a really bad spot weld here with no penetration. The manf. got all the blame for the tanks and the bad rep. So yes GD deserves the blame for the failures, lippert did them no favors though :)
I am 150% with you on BTBRV being a shill. He lost my subscription when he did those videos at Lippert. He does 80% of the talking and explaining while Lippert employees just nod their heads at his statements.
Yes he does & if I may "It is worth FAR more than it cost" I am in my 3rd 5th wheel toyhauler and I learned quite a bit from his course. ( I should also add that I am a serious DIY type of person)
@Bunkysworkshop I've got two courses, are you shopping RVs? Do you already own? Or both? If you're shopping, I have a course on how to avoid buying a lemon, which you can learn more about here - undercoverrvshopper.com/ If you already own a RV, I have a Tool-Free Maintenace course that Duane took that covers 15 tips that will, I kid you not, save you $50k in repair costs. You can find more details on that course here - www.howtonotbreakyourrv.com/
Good video and good advice. However, there are many symptoms that may be indicators of frame failure. My pin box never moved and was within spec. You have to look for signs. Here’s a video I did with Liz Amazing where I talk about the issue and some symptoms. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zamTyOn6Pmw.htmlsi=bjx8p2pQSveNWj_8
That was a good video. Now, of course, Liz is being coerced to take such videos down. She is staying strong so far, but Legal troubles can overwhelm any one individual unless they have a bunch of money to hire legal teams.
Shame on all involved in the design and manufacturing of the frame and the coach. Lippert should have the authority to tell the RV manufacturer to pound sand when they specify a crap design, and Lippert should also refuse to cheap out on a frame that is clearly bad design. Like the saying goes "Just Say No".
Unfortunately, Lippert often does not know the intended use of the frame or specific portions of the frame. They are provided with a blueprint and told, "Build this." They don't know, for instance, that a washer/dryer is going to be placed in a certain spot in the floor plan, and that the manufacturer did not account for the added stress in the blueprint.
HINT:...IMHO... DONT BUY an RV WITH LIMPIT FRAMES... regardless of the specs provided, limpit has the skill expertise and insider knowledge of the expected use of THEIR frames to allow them to construct an adequate frame for the intended use of the consumer (via the manufacturer e.g. GD).... and... more importantly, TO REFUSE to construct a requested frame they know or should have known is inadequate.... i.e. defective... no excuses🎉 defective products liability lawyers are lining up. all it will take is a life-ending casuality to put these POS folks outta biz.🎉🎉🎉... wanna by a Ford Pinto?
