How to back drag without hurting your front end loader cylinders - Kubota B2601 and others.  

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A tip for you. When you back drag leave some material in your bucket. Makes for a better job with some weight in the bucket. Been running heavy equipment for over 60 years.

After 25 years as a backhoe company owner and over 20,000 hours behind me. I not only back drag with the cutting edge when using the rear digging bucket I place the front bucket edges in the ground for better anchorage. (Not flat) If a machine breaks because of this I would suggest finding a better quality backhoe.

Speaking as someone who works in a sand/gravel pit for a living, even the big CAT machines won't back-drag with a fully tilted bucket. The way you showed is what they do. Well explained!

Been doing it for 40 years, never had a problem. Just take it slow and easy, some times it is the only way to scrape something.

I have owned and operated equipment equipment for over 60 years, and am hoping to make it 70 years. What I have found: In some cases the bending of rods in the cylinders is a design and wear problem. We back drag at 90 degrees with enough down pressure to lift the front end of the machine slightly off the ground. We had one loader that had about 35,000 hours on it when I sold it, we never broke a rod on it. The real and frequent danger to the machine is pushing forward with the bucket at 90 degrees or a bit less, that will rip the end of the cylinder apart, some of that was a design flaw, I would weld the cylinder back together properly and run it for many years. We would use our equipment enough to wear out a bucket in a few years, we would then rebuilt it with Hardox and go a few more years. We had a machine with a bucket like on the kubota, it didn't even last one season and it was coming apart. That was used in digging dirt, not rock.

Your exactly right Ed. I remember as a newbie to a tractor/loader I would curl my bucket down to back grade. An older guy who operated equipment for many years told me that was a good way to ruin my cylinders. Thankfully I heeded his advice without damaging anything.

Thanks and it's so true. I worked with a landscaping company in Georgia for awhile and the Foreman was constantly watching all the new operators to make sure the cylinders were never fully extended except when dumping the bucket. I enjoy your videos because you try and share what you've learned but one thing I wish you would share is how important it is to always wear that seatbelt no matter how long you might be on your tractor. A tractor roll over claims about 130 lives each year and many of these have the ROPS but because they weren't wearing a seatbelt they fell out of the seat and were crushed when the tractor rolled on them. And 1 in 10 operators will have a tractor rollover in their lifetime. This doesn't sound very high unless you are the 1

I would call this back grading. What we call back dragging is smoothing with the bucket moe-or-less flat, with our without a load in it for weight. That said, I and everyone that worked for me back GRADE with front loader tractor buckets for 50 years and never bent any cylinders. I'm talking tearing up hardpan for loading, pulling back concrete after busting it up with jackhammers, bucket tucked towards the tractor, front wheels off the ground, fully extended for maximum rip. Fords, International, Kubota, large boys, compacts. Never had a problem. Maybe we were just lucky?

This solves all your back dragging problems, and also improves your bucket 1000%. Go out and buy yourself a caterpillar double-edged cutting-edge for your bucket that bolts on. Absolutely the only way to Back Drag. The rear cutting-edge does a great job when you put the bucket flat on the ground. You can actually drag gravel or anything else because it gives you a cutting-edge in reverse. Also it will leave your factory Edge untouched for the entire time you own your tractor. Another added benefit is it reinforces the front edge of your bucket. They're only like $170, $180. They're made out of carbon steel they'll never wear out. The one on my buckets been on there since 2006. And it gives you a great digging Cutting Edge.

Ok, I just asked another operator about this and you explain perfectly why I shouldn't do that. I asked why, in full dump and dragging back, does it flex. I fear now I may have a damage rear seal. I have no leaks at wiper seal so it has to be internal. I use bucket to drag top of pile backwards to prevent chasing the pile wrong way least I loose material where I don't want it. Guess I'll have to come up with a bucket jig to do that now. Thanks for explain. You have saved us from damaging our tractors.

I am surprised at how many people say their Dealers haven't helped them. Every Dealer I have bought from has been there to help if I needed it, especially Rural King. Great tip Mr. Ed. Take Care, God Bless, STAY SAFE

I like to back drag with my bucket mostly weighted down with material. With cylinders retracted and control in float position. Take care of your machine, and your machine will take care of you.

Thank you for all your videos! The Kubota dealer told me how to go forward, backwards and where the lights are. Your videos are very informative and much needed for us new tractor owners.

Good advice for the most part. Now I will back drag with the bucket rotated all the way down when trying to drag out a pile of loose dirt or rocks. Hard ground will get you in trouble. Two things can happen with the bucket rotated down. You will bend the rams if you put too much force. This is called a buckling failure because the ram is weak in compression when fully extended. The other thing that can happen is if you are moving forward and you catch on something, you can pull the ends of the rods off where they attach to the loader. Don't push with the bucket rotated down. I have seen the most failures with grapples that apply lots of force to loader arms and sometimes require bucket rams all the way out.

I had a Fergusson tractor with a loader and the pump was so weak that there was little worry about damaging anything on it.... so I could back drag anyway it suited me... then I changed the bucket and pivot points for more power... and the change was dramatic I then back dragged with the bucket flat on the ground.... the idea of no operation at all with the cylinders at full extension is the best policy i think.

I will have to admit, I have done that. I do try to take care of my tractor so I won't be doing that anymore. Thanks for the advise.

I think i've learned more from you than my dealer

Good explanation. That is the way to keep from damaging cylinders and rods.

Negative there Ghost Rider. Weld a cutting edge on the heel of the bucket lay your bucket flat and drag with the heel. It will cut even if needed. We do this on all our front end loaders even. Saves wear on the bucket as well. However your video is correct on bending cylinders!

This makes sense to me, but I had never considered it. Thanks for raising the topic!

To me, at a hydraulic engineer your cylinder is designed to be fully extended with a load. So dragging is not the problem. When you move forward with the cylinder fully extended their is no hydraulic cushon so the tension on the cylinder can't be controlled and this will rip out the gland, snap the piston off or a clevis or mount. If the cylinder is fully extended it is easier to bend if a load hits a cylinder perpendicular to the travel of the cylinder. Seals and cylinders will also get damaged if the relief valve flow is too small and you get intensification by overpowering a cylinder.

Thank you!!!!!! I have done the bad back drag a few times. Thankfully it went ok. Never again though.

I backdrag all the time and never hurt a thing...

that was very well explained and the way you do it is the way I do it, at about a 45° angle or so, and sometimes I’ll even move the bucket in the fully retracted position and use the backside of the bucket to back drag a little bit, hope that makes sense.

Good video sir!! But I learned by just lookin at my bucket that fully extended probably would not be good on stuff back dragging. But I usually back drag like you did seems to work good. Thanks for sharing be safe have fun

Hi Ed! Yep, I’ve always heard never to back drag or push with the cylinders full extended. For the most part, I adhere to that rule, but like you I have found a few exceptions when spreading loose material like sand or mulch. However, you have to be certain there are no big rocks or stumps hidden below the material that could ruin your whole day. Thanks for sharing!

Great video. It’s little things like this that people sometimes don’t think about and ends up causing damage. Thanks for the video.

Thanks Ed. A great reminder, as we are waiting for snow to arrive this winter. Getting close to garage doors and building walls to clear the snow we can think twice before over extending the pistons. Great timing on this video... Dan

Thanks for your take on this issue that many talk about. My opinion is in line w/ yours: it depends. Are you trying to move a big rock, level out Class 5 rip-rap? If yes, then you’d best keep your bucket curled a lot more than trying to smooth mulch or sand. No substitute for common sense & understanding your machine’s capabilities. You’d also best become familiar w/ your loader’s float function. Thanks for helping to bust this myth.

Thanks very much for the info about back dragging, I will definitely change my way, Thanks Again!

Thank you so much. About to buy my first tractor and this is a great tip!

While it may not be a good idea, I've been backdragging with my JD 4500 for over 20 years with no issues. Maybe it's operator error or light weight Kubotas. No issues with my neighbors NH either. Hmmmmm.

I never really thought about that Ed.. Thanks for another great video.

Very good advice . 👍 using stump buckets and pallet forks the wrong way can destroy those cylinders also . The mechanical advantage multiplied over four or five feet is unreal .

You were spot on, I have seen many people even close to me jump on their tractor or bobcat and put the not only hydraulics but frame of unit and seemingly every bolt and nut under the most strain thinkable. All because they have a piece of equipment and very little mechanical knowledge. There are so many(not all)but many business owners with a pocket full of money or huge lines of credit and they go buy all this high dollar equipment and it gets abused not only by them, but the mindless cheapest help they can find or afford who could care less about the equipment, and it gets destroyed and then they bad mouth the brands that they destroy. Now a lot of equipment is engineered poorly or to minimum spec with maximum demand and that's another disaster. In closing on a tractor with a front end loader,.. The way that the shoulders or main mast is mounted typically down to the side of the engine block. This design has been around a long time but I personally feel that the leverage exerted from the bucket to the front end loader to the shoulders then twisting or trying to twist the sides of the engine block out. (add 4 wheel drive and diff lock and it triples) So many try and use tractors where a dozer should be used. Tractors are great, a front end loader is a great "Accessory".... I tend to use my tractor and front end loader gently. Or maybe another way to put it, I try to be smarter than what I'm working with. Ok, I'm stepping down off my soapbox now.

I always try to watch working with a cylinder fully extended weather its on a 50 ton track hoe which I do max those out alot, but definitely on your loader you should limit that and be cautious when you do. Fun fact, heavy equipment like a backhoe doesn't go over 90 to the ground like a loader does. Just my thoughts though.

Good info! I'm really glad you're here.

Hi Ed, what happens is like you said, you will bend the cylinders if you catch on something solid. Something will need to give and that will go to the weakest link. Very good tips Ed. Mitch from MJA Doing Stuff also gave a really important tip to consider when using a box blade in one of his last videos. The force of backing into something can cause the housing to tear apart. Glad that you guys bring this up. This can save tractor owners thousands of dollars and a whole lot of down time

My dads Kubota is 20 years old. Weve been back dragging since he got it. Never an issue with the cylinder. Though the low rear pins need replaced with a larger size after all those years of wear and tear.

Great advice Ed. We’ve all pushed that extension limit but, ya never feel comfortable doing it!!

I've never backdragedlike that! Fully extended

Great tip Ed. I’ve seen it happen when a buddy of mine was back dragging try to scrape some ice and he snapped one of his curl cylinder. A lot of leverage when cylinder if fully extended. Hope your weekend is good. Talk to ya Monday night 👍✊

you're not wrong, Ed. And that's GREAT advice. But I know a guy that has backbladed at 90 degrees for years and never had an issue. 😉👍

Great information! I talked about this recently in a video too. I left the loader at just under a 90% angle from the driveway surface, but used "float" mode.

The reason you can’t back drag with your bucket perpendicular to the ground is because of the geometry of the utility FEL. A construction FEL has. A geometry setup that minimizes the stresses created while backdragging.

I think the quality and design of the loader makes a difference. My curl has steel reinforced stops on the bucket that take the load instead of the cylinders. Loader built heavy enough to lift the rear wheels of a 10,000 pound tractor. It has been used on the farm since 1977 with out issue except seals failing about 5 years ago but at that age it's expected. Tractor has been used for loading hay, building roads, knocking down trees , removing stumps/ concrete and snow.

Very helpful video Ed. It sounds like just common sense, but we often overlook the simplest things. Thanks for sharing.

Excellent video. I learned what not to do with my Kubota. Many thanks.

As a hydraulic tech I can tell you I fix a lot of these bent rods on these loaders

My tractor (B26) has a “rest” position for the bucket. It’s activated by pushing the loader control stick full forward, past a detent. By doing this, it’s only the weight of the bucket on the ground versus cylinder pressure. The cylinders are relaxed and no impact pressure is transmitted. By laying the bucket flat, I find I can back drag almost any material with good results.

Greetings from Wisconsin! Thank you for this, as I too stress this weakness on my channel when it comes to snow pushers. I customized mine and made my own backdrag for this very reason. The "flak" I receive for stating my reason about the cylinders being fully extended being weak just surprises me.

This guy is very correct.

Good day Sir 😇👍 Great short bloopers 🧐👍 Great Demos with your hands and your tractor👌🧐 Logic dictate what you had showed to us very well Sir Cheers 🧐👌👍🍻

Good video Ed. And I fully agree. Leverage and mechanical advantage comes to mind. With the cylinders fully extended, and the bucket edge on the ground surface, any force applied to the bucket edge is greatly multiplied back thru leverage to the cylinders. 👍👍

I will do like you said. Good idea. Thanks for the video.

If you are back dragging in float amd going easy I don’t see a big deal. Been running my 2301 since 2018 with no issues. Now I would not back drag fully extended under pressure.. We purchased my tractor because we build a house and I did all the grooming with this tractor and I have over 400 hours on it. I have a box blade, York rake, seeder, stump bucket, 3pt finish mower and a 3pt hitch ripper. I use all of them. Now that the house is done they don’t get as much use but I moves dozens and dozens of yards of top soil, sand, crushed and stay pack. We have almost 6 acres of land so it was very busy for the first 3 years.

One tip is never dig or back drag in 4wheel drive. That way traction will break at the tires before the tractor breaks anything. Wheel slip can be a good thing.

The thing about these compact tractor loaders is that they are for light duty they will do a great job if you operate them accordingly and take your time if you push them you increase the chances of breaking something. You can't do what construction can do. My brother used to have a new Kubota 2350 tractor and loader. The loader frame would start to flex if you tried to take too much with it. It's a great little tractor you just had to be more careful with it

Great tips Ed, and I firmly agree with your back-dragging technique. Good stuff as always. 👍😎

Ty great explanation bottom line is why take the chance

The real issue with bending the rods and ultimately having cylinder leaks or breaking them entirely is a design flaw of this tractor and several others. If you look back at your video [1:10] you will note the gap between the cylinder and the bucket arm is very close to touching when the bucket is turned vertically downward. Now look at your video [2:02] you will see that the piston rod is almost touching the arm in this same extended position. Back dragging like this is really not so much a problem as when you try pushing something heavy, say a log or even jab the bucket into the ground. Everything flexes and these two pinch points come together pretty much at the same time and this can definitely bend the shaft and even pull the piston out of the cylinder. You can push with your bucket to some degree but be careful that you are not pushing something too heavy when your cylinders are in this compromised position. I like watching your videos and think you've done a great job!

And the same goes for backhoes. If the cylinders are extended, limit how much you flex on a stump or push backwards on a stump. If you don't you will just end up with broken stabilizers, bent cylinders, and cracked cylinder end caps. Not saying you can't do it, but if you do, eventually something is going to bend or break sooner than if you don't. These machines are made for digging, not bulldozing, or flexing on stumps, does not matter what color the tractor.

I do it all the time, but not like that... Set the bucket flat on ground, then tilt it down till the bottoms is inline with your loader arms... Yes, I lift the front end off the ground, and let it roll speedwise... And my results are awesome, I can get more area covered with less material than most, and it'll hold up too. The big truck is too drag the bare diet till it's all hard as hell, then drop rock. Prep be work, same as ever... M

I've back-dragged material with the bucket in all positions (depending on how much material you want to pull backwards as you do it) and NEVER had a problem. You NEVER want to go forward with your bucket pitched that much or you will absolutely bend a rod, but if you have a good tractor (not some cheap off-brand) and you take it easy while back-dragging, you should not have an issue.

I’ve beat the heck out of my BX2350 and it has held up well so far 😂. I do plan in taking it easier on it from now on though.

That makes a lot of sense glad to see your video

That is right, Bruce Perry, Taught me long time ago,

Another point is to keep your speed slow when doing something that is on the fringe of what you ought to be doing with the equipment. Same with using your box scraper in reverse. You can easily bend the stabilizers when pushing back. As with the hydraulic cylinder rods, they are much stronger when force is pulling on them rather than pushing. They usually fail when they hit something hard abruptly. Keep it slow when in doubt.

How's she goin'? I have heard this many times about back dragging or working the bucket with the cylinders fully extended. For the reasons you mention it makes sense to limit the amount of hard work the bucket will do with the cylinders extended. But when I back drag it's normal that the bucket would be at a maximum of 45 degrees and often times even less like you demonstrated. Thanks for sharing this info and take care!!

I have the same tractor setup as a lawnmower. Didn't know I could add a loader.

I think you are right, it is very easy to damage a FEL and/or the tractor it is attached to. We looked at a loader recently and the cylinders were bent

The issue is NOT the bushings and seals. The issue is you can very easily bend the ram. Generally you don't put a small bend in teh ram... it very suddenly bends 90 deg. Backdrag with the heel of the bucket. Curled up with the cutting edge appx 6 inches up to all the way curled. I've seen the destroyed cylinders from improper backdrag. (Other people's loaders at the dealership junk yard) You can also bend the loader frame by side loading it. Push or pull straight forward and reverse. Once you bend the loader frame, if you ever take it off the tractor (which will be very hard) it will never go back on.

Never really thought about any of these things! Great vid.

Good tip….I learned this the hard way…$750 later for one JD cylinder on a 541 loader.

Great information, Ed. I do, however, believe some materials might be ok. Sand, mulch that’s thick and free of stones etc. YMMV

A good practice either pushing or pulling with the bucket. They are not an excavator or a commercial backhoe.

Great video thanks for making it and passing along the knowledge makes perfect sense.

Good video Ed but I think that falls under common sense with the bucket fully extended for most tractor owners but for the others a great video.

I don't think it's the piston being at the end that is at fault, but the geometry of the linkages. When the cylinder is fully extended, there is a very large mechanical advantage where the cylinder is subjected to 5 times the pressure mechanically, similar to how a stamping press can deform steel as the crank goes over top dead center.

Ed, the round hole/structural support in your front end loader arm can be used as a chain or strap storage,etc. I have a New Holland with a rectangular hole/structure and I ordered plastic plugs that snap in the openings. Ebay sellers offer different size plugs.

This what exactly I had done and the tilt cylinder gland was destroyed, Im 3 weeks in waiting for ebay replacement, thanks

Thank you for the tip, sir

Thanks Ed! Some very helpful advice. Cheers!

I usually back drag while floating the bucket as well.

Great tip. Thanks.

💥 Good information Ed! *Keep on tractoring!*

I didn't know about the cylinder would be weak at the full cylinder extension when back dragging. That is I guess why both of my cylinders are leaking now with only a little over 400 hours usage. I could feel the wiper with my finger protruding from the gland on one of the cylinders.

With your style cylinder connections you could bend the rod back dragging our pushing with it curled out. On some tractors like my M6060 they have a dog bone connection between the loader arm and cylinder pin points. That eliminates the downward our upward movement of the cylinder rod. Check that out sometime on the bigger tractors.

Good to know

Very good. I agree 100%

Been back dragging with my tractor over 30year old kubota with a after market loader

Thank you Ed. Great job by keeping it simple and logical!

Thanks I did not know this .

The chrome portion that extends and retracts is the piston. The cylinder is what contains the piston.

Great teaching video. Tyvm

Doing the back dragging for 16 years with a 2008 Branson 3820i, never a problem or leak. Or the newer tractors are using too weak material or operator have no clue, maybe both ..LOL

Thanks Ed!!

Good video.

The only time I do it is when I am dragging loose rock or dirt in a pile. I use the box blade to scrape.