Another great video. Remarkable in that you put this together during this very difficult time for Laura and you. My heartfelt wishes for a good outcome and speedy recovery. When I was wheelchair bound after a bad accident there was a saying a friend passed on to me that carried me through those inevitable down days: “when faith fades, push for one more day”. Keeping you in my thoughts and staying a patreon supporter even if you need a hiatus during this time.
This is so good. I love videos like this: a situation where a naturally curious and intelligent person explores something they passionately enjoy. Thank you for making this video.
I'm a reTIREd professor of Suppleness at Supple University. Your testing methodology is inaccurate. If you had used a Squishometer to test tire suppleness then your testing results might have been valid. A valiant attempt!
My main use of a bicycle is getting to and from work and riding with my wife and kids (two daughters in a trailer attached to my bike). So I definitely go for durable tires. I can't tell you how many times I've ridden through a shattered bottle or rougher rocks. Sometimes I just don't notice these soon enough, but sometimes I just don't have the manoeuvrability because of the trailer. Great video!
Not bad for an English major :) Really love your videos. My strategy for managing punctures begins with a durable tire. I've spent too much time trying to get sealant to work with supple casings and relatively high pressures (35-40). Thanks for making these videos!
I think the sidewalls, thickness aside, would be the same material and hence the same durometer readings. The tread however will use one or more compounds of butyl with different durometer values for wear/durabilty vs. friction. I may be all wet, but durometers measure material deflection at the tip, not the entire deflection of the wall or crown. Really, no big deal. After 56 years of riding, I only use durable tires. I detest flats after repairing them by the hundreds. I only weight 145 lbs at 5'10" so no big terror for tires, but I use kevlar installed tires and sealant. Rarely have cuts or punctures on any terrain. Lots of goatheads in Az that don't go through. Thanks!
Great video, and nothing wrong at all with your experiment and conclusions from my perspective! How about a bounce test? I would hypothesize that the supple tire should absorb more of the shock than the durable tire. Drop both wheels from the same height at the level of the camera, and see which bounces higher. Might work? More fun! Thanks again for all your great videos, ideas and reviews.
I think the light and supple would bounce higher due to the lower weight and less loss of energy within the rubber. Durable one has more rubber = more energy turned into heat = less bounce.
@@thrjygdcmnbfdzfsa Exactly. I think one of issues with Russ's sidewall firmness test is the assumption that a supple tire would deform more. Two different tires pumped to the same pressure will always have the same contact patch area when loaded with the same weight (e.g., on a bike with the same rider weight) -- so they should deform a similar amount for the same amount of external pressure/weight applied, it's just a matter of how much energy is lost going through these cycles of deformation when rolling. I think this concept would apply to the drop/bounce test -- if dropped exactly the same, both tires should squish the about same amount at the bottom of the bounce (achieving a comparable "contact patch"), but the supple tire would rebound with less energy loss.
@@chrislukes9037 I agree with most of what you are saying, however I am not convinced that all tires with equal pressure would have the same contact patch area, since a really stiff touring tire could likely support more weight with a smaller contact patch at a given pressure than a light and flexible tire.
@@thrjygdcmnbfdzfsa Not debating (you are probably right technicall)- just some friendly discussion, if you're interested: As I always understood it, based on physics concepts the "PSI" we use to measure tire pressure is very literal -- effectively equalling the Pounds [that tire pressure can support] per Square Inch (PSI) [of contact patch area]. When we hit a drop on a MTB, the force of hitting the ground momentarily exceeds our static weight, so the tires squish down, expanding the contact patch to a greater number of square inches to account for the increased "effective weight"/force needing to be supported by the same PSI. At rest, the weight of our bike and body (in Pounds) is pressing against the earth through the contact patches; the equal and the opposite force (in Pounds) of the earth pushing up against the outside of the tire begins to squish the tire in toward the rim. As the contact patch expands in response, this fixed force (in Pounds) becomes spread across a broader area (in Square Inches) resulting in decreased pressure (in Pounds per Square Inch) of the earth against the tire; the resulting size of the contact patch represents the equilibrium point when the pressure of [the earth against the outside of the tire] equals the pressure of [the air pressing against the inside of the tire] are equal. Of course, physics formulas often are based on certain assumed ideal conditions ("in a vaccuum", etc.) and my thinking realistically assumes the air is the only thing providing support. You are probably right that the tire casing may support some small portion of the overall weight, it can't be much next to the air in the tire -- it doesn't take much weight before a flat tire (i.e., when only the stiffness of the casing is providing support) would simply collapse and drop the rim to the ground.
I'm going durable next time. I have a set of 650x47 Rutlands in the light & supple casing. They've worn down faster than any tire I've ever owned...dang it.
Hey there’s an easier way to measure the tire “hardness”/stiffness/squishyness: pump them to equal pressure, put them on the bike, sit on the bike, have someone measure the width of the tires at the contact point with the ground using calipers or a camera. Enjoyed the video, stay curious:)
Thanks for this video. I’ve been using WTB tyres for a few years on my gravel bike, but spend more time on pavement getting around the city. Last trip to my local bike store they recommended the Teravails and think I’ll be getting these exact tyres. Only problem for me my rear tyre max is about 40, but front can take 42 or larger.
Just thinking through my fingers here, but wouldn’t the hardness of the sidewall be about the same? I’m assuming the material is the same just thinner on the supple tire. That could explain the similar findings. I have no idea how the euro meter works it’s measuring madness.
Do to financial constraints precovid I went to REI's Garage sales. They often have tires but I never bought any because I didn't know about the Russ squishy test. Most are not mounted so I will use the light through the sidewall test. I need Gator tires, city riding... I try to avoid beer glass and other fun city riding obstacles but flats happen. No longer do I have to pass on a deeply discounted tire, if light shines through the tire is a no go for my needs. Tks Russ.
Super supple tires can be a hassle to mount. I am in the heavier, hamfisted, and yahoo right through the crud. So I guess I need the more rigid and durable.,
For a more scientific analysis/comparison of supple tires try other companies; since volume, sidwalls, tread and compounds all play significant role durability/suppleness. The difference from something like a compass ultralight or cotton a fancy cotton tubular are going to extremely different than a budget wire bead tire (like something that comes stock on a build) or a tire designed for more off-road use.
Hey Nick. Those other factors will definitely come into play, but by reducing the variables in his experiment Russ has been thinking like a scientist here. It's good experiment design to remove other variables when testing a hypothesis.
@@GrahamAtDesk Sure, tread design and construction are some of the most important variables, i'll give you that, however that doesn't even come close to painting the whole picture. I was literally triggered by this video, because picking tires is one of the most important tasks in gravel or CX and don't think it can be addressed in these simplistic terms. I'm just saying that I'd like to see a tire test that uses multiple tires in real world/lab like tests to determine best use/application. Heck, tire inserts maybe taking a larger role in tire selection in the coming years, another variable forsure!
A good thing to cover in the reviews is if the tire is compatible with hookless wheels . This is often a chore to discover and hookless are becoming more common.
Supple Vs Durable - Rene Herse would like to have a word with you. Jk - for what it's worth - I ride only Teravails on literally everything - mtbs, gravel, and road. Some big boys here saying durable. I'm 225 and ride the light and supple. - Only issues i've had is an actual puncture which i doubt the durable would have been able to defend. I found durable to be very sluggish imo.
Ride review please 😊 i've definitely noticed a difference between my panaracer GK SS plus protected tyres. and my schwalbe G-ONE all rounder supple tyres. a lot more energy seems be soaked up when those moments of needing to go fast, in the supple tyre. but a lot more comfortable on the rougher stuff.
Number of sidewall reinforcement layers and the TPI of that material determine suppleness (flexibility) of the casing. The durometer of the rubber in supple vs. durable tires is likely the same. Durometer test probes are too small (~1.2mm cone) to be affected by casing fabric or PSI - they are only testing the localized deflection of the rubber only. A much larger probe or flex measurement of the sidewall would be needed to truly determine “suppleness”.
Sinse you like to compare things. Would you share your opinions on the three types of fly rods I have seen you use? The traditional guided rod, the tenkara rod and the guidefree (inline) type rod. For fishing and carrying?
Any chance that the paint/label where you tested both tires skewed the result (creating an extra layer at that spot)? Perhaps try again at a spot where the sidewall is clean?
Russ....REALLY scientific minds would see your curiosity and willingness to try to find answers and see if something is possible and applaud you. The pedantic mind is going to obsess over your methods and try to show you up in a RU-vid comment. Stay curious, my friend!
Thanks for an interesting video, I like your approach of trying to make quality easily measurable. On issue related to tire weight at 5:00, what's your opinion in GCN Tech's take on "Why Rotating Weight Doesn't Matter On Your Road Bike" from few months ago? Guest's (Jean-Paul Ballard) points make sense, so could heavier tire actually feel sluggish just because it's less supple?
@@PathLessPedaledTV thanks. Any particular reason? On the other hand, the durable or the light and supple when it comes to Washburn. I height 142 pounds.
The Rene Herse juniper ridge extra light tires I bought were some of the worst 650b tires I’ve ever tried. They developed so many rips and punctures just along the sidewalls while on a 80% road bike tour through Nova Scotia Canada. I had to switch to Panaracer tires the first chance I could get. I had a relatively light load on my touring bike which added insult to injury. I will never buy an extremely light, supple casing again because of this experience despite the low rolling resistance and superb ride quality. I prefer riding over repairing flats any day. A set of WTB horizons lasted 4 months longer (5000km), only weighed about 100g more and cost 1/2 the price of the Rene herse tires.
Friends don't let friends buy RH tires in the extra light casings. extra light casing = single event standard casing = a few months riding But I love RH tires. Just bought the switchback hills anniversary edition in the endurance casing and only plan to use them on 90/20 stuff.
I tried some supple tires, I ended up ordering a pair durable flat resistant tires 5 weeks later. I'd rather pedal heavy tires than to hike-a-bike with flat supple tires.
Hey Russ, What do you think about the argument going on with some cyclists that "650b is dying"? Do you think it'll die off or just plateau, but steadily decline?
Nice to see Russ spend some time on the Teravail’s! Among the tires by WTB and Rene Herse, they somewhat take a back seat, which is a bummer because they make awesome tires. Though impossible to get here in the Netherlands, Europe. The thing I like about Rene Herse tires, they (almost) all come in 4 different casings: extra light, standard, endurance and endurance plus. With winter coming soon, I am now riding the Switchback Hills Endurance, which I consider to be a great upgrade from the WTB Horizons: they weigh less, are still verry supple and give added protection, I think a good deal altogether. Keep on trucking folks! Kind regards, Gerlach.
Got a ton of KMs logged on my ReneHerse switchback ultralights and I do a fair amount of sketchy single track. I think it's part luck part as you said, picking your path. I've got the "If I didn't have bad luck I'd have no luck at all" and still haven't gotten any punctures (that I've noticed I'm set up tubeless) Great video as usual. Have you not ridden the WTB Byways?
I just ran over a couple of very small sticks with my RH switchbacks standard casing. Now, trying to get those tiny tiny punctures to seal. They just keep oozing. Personally, I am never going to buy supple(ish) tires again. Love the ride but hate the vulnerability. So, I ordered another set of RH switchbacks (love em) in the endurance casing. Also ordered panaracer SS+ tires. But no more supple tires for me. Big fan of panaracer and rene herse.
Did you end up reviewing those tires? I'm thinking about buying them and would love your opinion (also not sure wether to go with supple or durable...)
@@PathLessPedaledTV I'm very interested in a comparison with the Pathfinder Pros if you ever get to reviewing them. Also a bit skeptical about how heavy they are compared to similar tires.
great vid Russ ! Could you do a video testing out different gravel tire inserts? I know Vittoria and Cushcore do some and wondering if that plus a supple tire would be the perfect combo between strength, rim protection and even allows you to drop your psi down a tiny bit for some extra traction power !
Why not ask Josh at Marginal Gains about how to test this. I believe they’ve done it for tubes. If it were me I would try the measurement on the center ridge. That’s what will compress and rebound, presumably faster on a more supple tire. The amount of pressure to compress is one thing, but I think he’s said it’s the quickness or efficiency of the rebound that also factors in.
I didn't test the center ridge because what you're measuring there is the hardness of the rubber compound. They could use the same rubber compound and it would have no change in the reading. The real significant differentiator IME is the sidewall.
Nobody understands supple tires until you ride high end hand made tubulars. They are like riding on a magic carpet! The fatter, the better! Problem is, hardly anyone can afford them. Fat clinchers such as Rene Herse tires ride amazingly. To avoid durability issues you need to know how to ride smoothly, negotiate obstacles and utilize lower pressure. High quality supple tires set up tubeless ride wonderfully, but if you ride like a 300 lb. gorilla you will become frustrated and broke quickly. TIRES and CHAIN, wheels, most important parts on your bike next to the contact points.
Cool video. Thank you Russ. Too bad your measuring setup gave inconclusive results. It was a cool idea though. Don't be so hard on yourself about science.
