A simple guide for how to go about fitting a decoder into a tri-ang locomotive. Any questions, please feel free to ask! Thanks for watching! samstrains samstrains
Sam, I love this video, I'm bookmarking it for when I settle down to DCC'ing my locos. Very concise, very clear. I learned how to solder from Chambs, and I learned how to DCC locos here. Excellent! Thank you for your effort.
Well for me, with a 1960 Triang Princes Royal (my first ever loco) this has been a truly fascinating tutorial. Thanks Sam, I can see the video was made some time ago but it will be valuable to enthusiasts for years ahead. It has answered a question I’ve been pondering for ages. Can’t wait to try it! Excellent presentation too
Fantastic to hear that - yes this is an old one now, not sure I can highly recommend chipping tri-ang locos, but it works in an emergency! :D Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam. This is great video Sam explained perfectly. I converted a battle of Britain class although I found the basic hornby chip did not handle the power of the older motor so I changed it for hornbys premium chip. I also fitted a socket so the chip plugs in effectively making the loco DCC ready.
Hi Andrew - thanks so much for the kind comment mate - hmm that's odd about the standard chip - I've never had that trouble before! That's a very good idea too - fitting the socket - thanks for the tip! Cheers, Sam :)
Thanks Sam. That was very helpful. I've got a Hornby GWR Pannier Tank I have to do with the same motor. I run my layout - H0 gauge - with a Digitrax unit, so I maybe have to get a micro decoder - possibly N gauge - to fit into the tender. One good thing about Digitrax decoders is they are warranted for user "stuffups", so if you blow one up they will replace under warranty! I will get a decoder in the next few days and see what happens. Regards, Ian
Good informative video. When opened loco, thought golly, where do I begin.. video is good and simple. Some other one can confuse a bit. Good man. Thanks.
Nice one, never looked at DCC as I have older engines, didn't know it would work on these, I sense experiments with an old R159, which I was thinking of working on.
Cheers for that video, I was trying to think of a way to completely isolate the motor from the chassis, I went from insul tape and plastic screws to heat shrinking the back end and superglue, the electromechanical part of my brain must be on holiday at the moment so thanks for stopping at least an hours worth of brain ache.
No problem mate - glad you found it useful! Heat shrink tubing can be great to use as insulators - just don't burn through it with solder ;D Thanks for watching, Sam :)
great video simple to follow will help me convert my old hornby/triang locos to run on my new layout im building as a retirement project in a short time after years away from model railways to run them with my modern locos thanks and keep up the great information videos regards bob clifford
Nice one Sam. This was really interesting. I've just bought a couple of chips to give this a go with some old Hornby locos. Just need to pluck up the courage to give it a go now ... Steve
+Steve Lea haha, don't worry about it! Worst case scenario = you're not happy with the way they run so you have to take the chip back out, you can still use them in other locos! Good luck, Sam :)
Very well presented Sam & more importantly very well explained in a simple way. I'm sure many modellers who would 'shy-off' doing this with a lack of knowledge for this kind of thing will feel more confident now! Well done! Talk soon mate, John.
Step 1, Make sure the loco actually works well on DC, if it doesn't run well on DC, it'll probably run worse on DCC. step 2, You only need the black, red, grey and orange wires. I start by desoldering all other wires, then cut the plug off the 4 we need. step 3, wrap black electrical tape around the DCC decoder. then a bit around the exposed top, then bend the wires down over the decoder, and wrap tape on the other side, before wrapping tape around the whole thing again... fully insulated. Step 4, open your loco. pull the insulation sleeve off the right side of the motor (yours is upside down...) cut it in half, and put it back on both sides of the spring. Step 5. grab an old brush and cut it in half. (or obtain any small piece of thin brass/copper to make one.) solder the grey wire to that. Clean up the existing contact that the wires is already soldered onto, and solder the orange wire to it. Re-apply them to the motor. (I don't solder directly on the brushes in case they need replacing) Step 6. Remove the wire from the bottom plate, solder the red wire to it. and solder the black wire to the eyelet. Step 7. make sure there's a capacitor across the motor somewhere, I solder a second pair of wires to it, and those terminals. Step 8: Test it. by applying DC to the brass pickup and the chassis. Hornby DCC decoders support DC by default, so it should make the motor spin. Step 9, stick the Decoder to the chassis, and put the loco back together. Care must be taken to make sure everything actually fits together, I've found I've had to re-do it more than once because something was pressing against the inside top of the loco shell. Step 10. Test it with DCC on a test track (or your trainset).
@@SamsTrains Glad you approve. I did look up a few videos about DCC previously, yours was fairly clear, though I actually did convert my first X03 loco before watching this. Wrapping the whole thing in Electrical tape does help for locos like these X03/X04 based ones where the Chassis itself is live.
Hi sam, I’m considering changing to DCC and found your tutorial very helpful, just one question is the left and right correct? I work in the motor trade and as the front of your engine is at the bottom I thought it would be the other way around, left and right would be determined as if your were sitting in it facing forward ??? Loving your channel Regards Paul
Hi Sam. Excellent video. Thanks. A couple of questions: When you talk of left and right, is that from the perspective of looking from the rear of the locomotive towards the front or the other way around? Secondly, I’ve heard that the older locomotives draw too much power which can fry the decoder. The loco you were working on looks fairly elderly. Is this a common issue, or have others just been unlucky? I love your channel - keep up the good work.
Ahh fantastic - good luck with it Jacob! Remember to completely isolate the ringfield motor from the chassis - it can be quite tricky! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Okay mate - best of luck to you! Yeah definitely wise to try this on an expendable ;) Also bear in mind that with only 2 sets of pick-ups on each side, these do struggle slightly on DCC! Also, a very well serviced motor is also absolutely essential + suppression, because these motors generate lots of EMF, which fries chips! Let me know how you get on, Cheers, Sam :)
Well I managed it. I had the motor in good order, all clean, all looking good, I bought the decoder, found a suitable diode, got out my fine soldering iron and fine tools. What could possibly go wrong? As I am a Mech E. you might expect lots, but no. I put it all together, put it on the track and off it went. You were correct regarding the pickups, I had to give them some tending before getting a smooth run around the whole track. Did a bit more tending this morning and very good at slow speed and will go around without problems, but not at real slow speed over the points. Thank you for the advice.
Hi Ian - that's great news! Yeah they never were great with slow speeds - but it sounds like you did a great job with it, well done! No problem mate, I'm glad to help! Cheers, Sam :)
Sam, thanks for the video, very useful. i am in the process of convert and old Ivatt hornby triang i was thinking of moving the DDC chip to the tender, have you ever done that, if it works i could add a speaker too and making it a sounds version as there is lots more room than in the loco body. let me know if you have done this or ever thought about it?
Hmmm, it's worth going over the model with a fine tooth comb - watch the base keeper plate and the pickup wire, might be worth insulating the solder joint with some tape, if it's not already isolated! Merry Christmas - Sam :)
It seems your LEFT & RIGHTS we’re transposed. The Right hand wheels have the direct connection to the motor not the left Remember, your loco is drawn (or illustrated) , facing down the page so the Right hand wheels are on the left of the page
You might be right Bruce - it doesn't matter for DCC though, as the input to the loco is effectively AC, so only the output from the decoder is critical... and even then, you can program most decoders to run the opposite way! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Good video! Might be worth mentioning that the old Triang locos had metal couplings which of course are also live. It could cause a problem if connected to another loco with a metal coupling if the leads are swapped in one of them. With my lack of attention to detail always possible (I guess one of the engines would run backwards). I think it would cause a short? The plastic couplings don't cause a problem and can be glued on with araldite. Do you know of a video on how to add an additional collector as the old locos sometimes have poor pick up which was not so critical for DC? Also I wonder if the current draw on an old Triang motor might be more than the 1 amp for a Hornby DCC - if the magnet is a bit iffy. Have you had a problem? Have you ever fitted a stay alive capacitor to a Hornby DCC?
Yeah you're right - that does happen, but only if one locomotive is coupled to another that's running the opposite way around - I have experimented with them before to see if that would happen! I don't know of any videos like that actually - and I've certainly not tried that before. One possible way might be to acquire a modern bogey with pick-ups, and attach it to an older loco, wiring it up! Of course there are ways to add your own pick-ups, if you're brave enough! As for the current, a tri-ang loco typically pulls between 0.2 and 0.3 Amps, so they should never be pulling as much as 1A, regardless of how bad the magnet is, though of course it's advisable to only run locos with decent magnets! No I've not tried the stay alive caps, but they do sound like an excellent idea! All the best, Sam :)
Very well explained Sam, my electronic skills are very good, but I am always learning, as per your video, which I found informative. Can I ask what software you used to explode the loco etc?...Simon
+Simon Young Hi Simon, thanks for commenting - obviously you will have known the vast majority of what I said here already, but glad to have been some help! The animation was just done in adobe flash - I was screen recording only the main window, and scrubbing through the animation 'out of shot'. Thanks as always, Sam :)
I tryed this but after a while the chip got very hot and some burnt out because I was told the motor pulls 2 amps and the chips can only take half an amp so are there any chips that can take 2 amps
It isn't true that these motors pull anywhere close to 2 amps - they run at 0.2amps, and up to 0.3 under load. A decoder rated for 0.5amp or more is fine for these motors, provided they're working correctly and regularly serviced! If it's blowing your decoders, there may be a fault with the motor! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Great video Sam, I was puzzled about where the pick ups were on an old loco but you have made it all so clear. Just one point I have been changing to ddc on and old Hornby ring field motor with lights, and they are not working using the white wire from the decoder. In your video you mentioned the blue wire being a ground. Do I need to connect this wire to get the lights to work. Happy New Year!
haha that would definitely be a first - to be hones though, they don't run reliably enough on DCC to trust such expensive equipment to them though - I'd be scared they'd blow the decoder :/ Thanks for watching, Sam :)
That’s understandable and true.. Unless the decoder was good to withstand the oldest of model train mechanisms but then again I’m no expert about DCC or sound chips. ^^’
I thought it was a big no no when it comes to chipping a open motor like the one you have here. I've been under the impression that the motor had to be completely removed from contact with the frame otherwise you'll fry the chip. Plus I'm not really understanding what you're talking about with the insulating wire and putting tape on the screw. Any help would be appreciated I have several locomotives that have this type of motor and it would help with having to replace it with a can motor. Thank you
Hi Russell - it's not recommended - but not because of insulation. The motor frame *is* in contact with the chassis, but by insulating the brushes from the spring, you can isolate them, and wire directly to them 100% safely. I don't really recommend this, but only because the X04 motors produce a lot of back-emf, and they can get quite heavy on the old current-draw, and can damage decoders if you're unlucky. If you must do it, use quality decoders, check and service the motors regularly! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam, I am fitting a Hornby Sound decoder to a similar loco. It will be running on Peco code 100 track. What should I look out for with the installation? Dennis
Not too much to look out for Dennis, but do consider the reliability of fitting sound into such a loco, as the pickups are very limited. Maybe think about using a decoder with stay-alive? Thanks for watching, Sam :)
A very simple explanation of fitting a decoder. I feel your explanation may have one major flaw. You are looking at the top of the loco with the front of the engine towards the bottom. Therefore, the TRUE right side of the loco is the side with the insulated wheels on. It's normal practice to show a explanation like this with front of the engine at the top of the screen. Therefore the red and black wire may need to be swapped, am I correct?
+waynzus Yeah, that is true to some extent, but since you can easily reprogram the direction with the press of the button on the controller, I decided the direction wasn't very important, so long as left corresponds with left motor and vice versa. Cheers, Sam
@@SamsTrains Well you are very wrong Sam. There is a convention that exists and you are not so big that you dont need to follow it, in reality you got it wrong so why not just admit it. It doesnt bode well for your chip fitting service
I've been looking for weeks now for a video to explain where to connect to my open frame motor. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING THIS. I am converting a Mantua 4-6-2 to DCC. Only have one question. The Decoder manufacturers state a lot that the motor must be isolated. I assumed that meant since the frame has power from the rail that the brass screw would have to be changed to nylon and that kapton tape would have to be placed under the motor to isolated it from the frame. Is my understanding incorrect?
It's a real pleasure John, really glad this was some help! Good luck with the Mantua. Yes it's better if the motor can be isolated, but as the commutator should also be isolated from the motor, it's usually sufficient to isolate just the brushes, as done here! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Right at the end you talk about the correct track for the correct loco. I have a loco that picks up dreadfully. Can you please explain how I can overcome this. I believe it is an old Triang shunter D3035.
Are you using the 08 on DCC? Unfortunately with only 2 pickups going to each line, they don't tend to run well on DCC unfortunately, particularly if they're the kind with the large flanges! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam, I have been following your guide how to DCC a Triang Loco. I have fitted a Hornby digital Sound Recorder. All sounds work fine but the loco does not move. All connections look fine. is the motor compatible with tis type of decoder?
great video can you possibly do one for an x337 triang motor with a spider fitting and tails for a second bogey as per an R357 triang class 31 i am struggling with this conversion Thanks
I've now watched this for the second time, Sam. But I have heard/read somewhere that these old X03 / X04 motors aren't suitable for conversion due to drawing too much current?
Not so much current - if properly serviced they should only draw 0.2-0.3A, they do produce lots of back EMF though, so you need a quality decoder that can handle it. Also tri-ang locos aren't terribly suitable due to the small number of pickups, so some kind of stay-alive is worth looking into! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Very good film Sam. However, I believe you have got red & black mixed up. BLack goes to the left rail in the "forward" direction of travel & Red to the right rail on your diagram these were reversed, meaning when you ran that loco it would run backwards when forward was selected. Easy solution is to add 1 to cv29 to reverse the direction of the chip. But that might worry a novice to do that. Keep up the great work!
Thanks Boa - yeah you may be right, but it's inconsequential - the decoders aren't sensitive to polarity, so only the motor outputs need to be correct! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Great video Sam. Thanks very much. It has given me the confidence to convert my childhood Jinty (Triang 060). Needs a service first tho. One question. The train has an additional wire with a resistor (I think) for the smoker and is attached to the motor. Will this effect the method you use. Also, having not purchased the chip yet I am struggling to see how it would fit in this engine. Thoughts??
Hi Chris, thanks a lto for the comment! I'd strongly suggest removing any smoke generator before converting to DCC, unless you know that the total current won't exceed the rating of the decoder! You'll also need a way to isolate the generator from the chassis, which is easier said than done! If the device you mean is the capacitor, you can leave that in place, it's supposed to be in parallel with the motor, and it helps reduce arking on the motor! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Thanks Sam. My Triang is a 1964 or'65 engine with a Syncrosmoke cast metal smoker. The issue that myself and other readers who want to convert theses engines is that the body screw holding the body to the chassis attaches itself to the side of the smoker. I could try attaching by passing a screw down the chimney (as seen in other models) but this will take some thought. Thanks again, hopefully a solution can be found. Cheers, Chris.
Sam, can I add a stay alive capacitor once I have converted DCC to my trian loco. If so, where are the solder points points on the Hornby 4 pin decoder that I am using?
Yes you can, though the decoder will need to support the feature - I don't think the Hornby ones do! I could be wrong though, I've never tried it before! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Thanks for making this video. What Hornby chip did you use and what does it run like at different speeds? Did you have to alter the CV values at all to stop the erratic running?
Hi, no problem! I cant remember the exact product code, but it's just the standard Hornby 8-pin chip. They tend to run perfect on the default settings, though you can increase the minimum speed CV to ensure they don't stall by going too slowly, that's all! Cheers, Sam :)
Thanks Sam, I'll give it a try. I've fitted a chip to a Hornby class 86 but I had also replaced the motor with a 5 pole. Some of the cheaper 3 pole motors fitted in the 0-4-0 tank engines are really jerky on DCC for some reason? I think they were Scalextric motors they fitted in those?
I have a Hornby Class 91 in the East Coast Flying Scotsman livery. Do you have any advice how to wire that thing into DCC? It has a 8pin plug, but I gutted everything until its a hollow shell. It uses the pancake motor design, but I don't know where each contact point goes in terms of soldering them to the correct wire to the decoder.
Hi Evan, you'll want to common all the left pick-up wires together, and do the same with the right. The red and black decoder wires to to those, and the orange and grey wires go to the motor terminals! Hope this helps, Sam :)
Thanks, but I think, I'll have to do the re motoring method, a very hard modification. The pancake motor is weird to my standards (I work on US style locomotive) because it has like 4 contact points that are not color coded. I also remember that before I gutted the entire locomotive, two of the wires that were soldered to the main bogie with the mounted pancake motor were connected to the other non-powered bogie. I am not an expert on UK locomotives. But the Bachmann Branchline series is more familiar to me when it comes to a standard 8pin NMRA decoder.
just changed my lima oo deltic to dcc. it does not run as fast and strugles to pull 3 coaches up an incline on my layout. when i ran it before on dc it would pull 9 coaches easy. my dcc system is gauge master prodgity 2 any ideas ?
Hi Sam, it's possible that she will need a service - many modern DCC decoders don't put out as much current as a regular DC controller can - and so they really will need to be thoroughly serviced before running on DCC, if at all! :3 Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Andrew - you can wire the common anywhere on the metal chassis! I'm not sure about the smoke generator - you'd want to know how much current that draws before wiring it in! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Thomas, you'd just look at the data sheet - you could use any of the functions really, using the common return wire as one of the connections! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hiya Sam, as usual a great vid, I do have a collection of tri-ang loco's from when I was a kid back in the 50's and a great deal of old tracks to run them on, the motors I beleive a called XXX motors, but there one thing I don't quite understand regarding the "spring" connecting the bushes... from what I understood I need to instullate both end's of the "spring", surely that not right (and if it is then by snipping a bit off the existing intsallaion to use on the other end that should suffvice), please can you clarify that...Iddy
Thanks for sharing Idris! No, only one end of the spring must be insulated, as the left one is live to the loco chassis! :D Thanks for watching, Sam :)
+MrMarkey4184 Yeah, you can do that - you just need to wire it to one of the functions and the 'common' wire. You must first run the smoke generator on a regular 12v power supply and test the current draw first though - there may be a maximum current for the decoder, so it's worth checking! Cheers, Sam
Sam, I just found this video as I have given a Battle of Britain loco and want to convert it to DCC. It’s a great video for the most part but there are a couple of glossed over element that I hope you can elaborate on. The first is at 1:54 where the motor is removed and I’m assuming that a screw needs to be removed before the motor slides out. The second is at 11:10 where you mention the right wheels running on the right track. Please can you give me some more detail as to what is the right track and what are the right wheels. Do I need to purchase a new set of main wheels or only use old track. Thanks in anticipation and keep up with the videos, they can really help us newbies. PaulO
Hey Paul - ooh good luck with that! Yes I didn't detail the actual process here, just the theory! The rear motor screw does need to be remove! The wheels live with the track are on the side with no visible pickups - you should be able to see from the underside! I'm not sure exactly which track does or doesn't work with these - best to try them on the track you intend to use. Most of these should be fine on modern Hornby set track, as well as period track from the 1960s! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Yes it will work! Just make sure it's a fantastic runner before you do it - you really only want to chip the locos with the very best performance! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam, greatly informative video, just one question though as I'm not an electronics wiz, How do you figure out which contact is Motor Left and Motor Right? Cheers mate.
Thanks very much mate! It really doesn't matter too much - if you get them wrong, the loco will just go in the wrong direction, and you can swap them! Usually trial and error is the best way! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam. I have a video idea for you. Personaly I have a lot of hornby tender driven models that are from the 80s that I am looking to convert to dcc. Can you please consider making a video on how to convert a tender driven engine into dcc. Thanks
Hi Sam, have you ever done anything on fitting DCC to a ringfield motor. Just found my old sets from the early 90s. Both intercity HST sets plus a Lima diesel. All run on ringfield. Any help would be hugely appreciated! Chris
Yeah I've done it many times - it can work very well, but only on the most reliable of runners! The biggest issue is isolating the motor brushes from the chassis - one is easy, since it's a wire - the other is more difficult since it uses a screw. The solution is to remove the long brush retaining screw (which reaches to the back of the chassis where it makes contact), and select another screw with a thicker thread, that will tap into the plastic without touching the metal chassis - you can trim screws with a dremel to do this! Then it's nice and easy to fit the decoder! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Very good video. Have just subscribed. This will help me with my conversion of GWR Pannier tank loco, running #2744. Have you made how to videos for Triang/Hornby R758 (D7063), and Triang R357? They both appear to use the same design motor, the former being 2 axle, and the latter 3 axle (with a dummy centre axle.) Both locos have wires running from the rear bogie.Hoping you can help me, as I saw a video sometime ago on fitting decoders to these models, but now for the life of me I can't find it. Ian
Thanks very much for that Ian, all the best of luck with the conversion! Yes, it's much the same process for the diesel bogies - isolate the brushes from the spring, and use the pick-ups, or chassis, to power the decoder, depending on which you use! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Very informative. However, when I return from the States, collecting for my N and HO collection, I would like you to convert my old Hornby, display models to DCC.
Hello Sam, great informative video. I also like the 'Mainline' loco and 'ringfield motor' maintenance videos. Thanks for posting. Have you ever thought of DCC a Mainline locomotive? I have a few Mainline locos I would be interested in converting (2 Scots and a Baby Scot), but I haven't managed to find any suitable 'how to' videos. If you know of any sites that do a good job on converting, or know how to yourself, I would love to know. Kind regards, Mookie.
Hi Mookie, thanks a lot for your comment - I'm really glad the maintenance videos were useful for you! There are a few problems with DCC fitting mainline locos: first, space - the chassis tend to fill the loco bodies completely, which means you'd probably need to take wires to the tender, and store the chip there! Secondly, the motors aren't great for DCC operation - they don't run well at slow speeds, and they need full power to get going sometimes! I'd only recommend DCCing the very best of motors! Thanks again, Sam :)
Essentially yeah - you just need to interrupt the existing connections to the motor! Although, space may be an issue with Thomas, since there's not a great deal of it available in there! All the best, Sam :)
All very good and informative. BUT. Am I the only one to notice that the view is actually looking down on the top of the motor / chassis, and also looking front to rear. SO. All the "Left's" and "Right's" are basically the wrong way round!!!
That's true Bob - but it depends on the motor - the decoder instructions aren't necessarily written for Tri-ang motors anyway, so you can't pay too much attention to 'motor left' and 'motor right' anyway - usually trial and error works best! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
haha - these were a touch rough and ready, but the centre wheels were designed not to touch the track, to allow them to work on tight curves! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Okay mate, thanks for the request - I'll only be able to do that when I'm planning to DCC one, which I'm not at the moment - but if I ever decide to, I'll film it for you! Cheers, Sam :)
+Why Not? Following the wiring and the soldering is the easy part. The hardest part is opening and closing the locomotive, and maintaining the linkage rods of a steam loco in place as you do so. It is best to chip a diesel loco first to learn and gain confidence before tackling a steam loco. A bit of tape helps with the linkage rods. Lots of patience and a firm hand helps with opening and closing the loco. And as Sam said, be very careful with the wiring harness of the decoder chip, their manufacturers use the tiniest amount of solder with the chips. They will pop off with the slightest tug, so much so it is probably best not to cut any wires you need, especially if you have large hands and fingers as clumsily as mine.
Absolutely. Although, you don't need to disturb the linkage rods at all - my exploded diagram was just to make things look simpler - you don't have to actually take the wheels off of course! :) Cheers, Sam
