How To Install a Ground Source Heat Pump 

never get planning lol

I don’t think you’ll have the proper license. Lol

The only sensible answer mc sarcasm ! I’m amazed at the politeness of replies typ brits , Should be a united FO lol

Yes good idea but if too many people extract heat from one source it wll freeze. Maybe we need to put heat pumps at the poles.

@@SkillBuilder why should we give heat pumps only to Polish people? #DadJoke

But seriously folks, maybe not @skill builder. The water in the would continue to circulate heat from the rock and water and earth in the mine.

If you are seriously interested in mine water heat visit Newcastle Gateshead 6MW district heating scheme and UKGEOS Glasgow research facility .

We brought this video back because it discusses ground source as opposed to air source. The simple facts are that most homes could not have ground source so the main focus of the government is air source which is not as efficient. Neither of these system will give you the same output as a gas boiler. Just for the record, I do not feel hounded in the slightest, I enjoy the debate and the video has had a a lot of views so I am happy.

@@SkillBuilder fair enough 👍

Do you mind giving us a ballpark of the price and how difficult it was to have installed?

​@@redmysterium After all rebates and the Fed Tax Credit it comes in at $21,800 USD. From start to turning it on took about four days for the drilling and two weeks to complete the installation. That included removing an air source heat pump and an oil furnace.

@@chrismaxny4066 Thanks so much.

@@chrismaxny4066 just so you know, just got two estimates, 5 ton ground source closed loop, radiant flooring and heating in a 3100 square foot house- $145,000.00! Not joking.

Our quote was $40,375 and after a discount for cash payment, an incentive from Central Hudson (electric company) and a 26% Federal Tax Credit the price was $21,315.70. The check we wrote to Dandelion was $28,805 as the fed tax credit wasn't received until we filed taxes. We have forced air heating and cooling and a 1800 sq ft home but that still is a huge difference!

He's been to a detox yoga retreat, cucumber on the eyes.......

@@vic6820 His son yeah ? 😁

Except nowdays all he is doing is slagging them off. Whatever gets the most ad revenue

Tricky The fact that I am willing to tell the truth about air source is not a commercial decision. We could get loads of ads from heat pump manufacturers. Ground source is impractical and too expensive for most homes. Air source works with underfloor heating and high levels of insulation. If that is too nuanced for you then sorry.

@@SkillBuilder it works in other situations too. But in my opinion, you have an agenda aside from the ad revenue here. You are quite right it doesn't work everywhere, but I disagree with the headlines you are chasing discrediting the technology.

@@SkillBuilder Roger come on, you know that's not true, air source heat pumps can work in older buildings as Heat Geek recently showed.

@@patrickwheeler2646 he knows it's not true but it doesn't suit his agenda (Daily Fail)

They saw it ages ago. I think they agree with me on almost everything. Heat pumps in well insulated buildings work but they are still no match for a boiler.

K

We will try and do a follow up

From my experience they use a LOT of electric, plus the install cost, never recoupe that cost ever

@@Ben-in6qh Could it be that your home isn't insulated well enough?

@@Ben-in6qh they do. But they use less than electric radiators do for the same amount of heat.

@@Ben-in6qh I do not think that they use a lot of electricity...it just a pump...also the ground always has a constant temperature...not like the air in winter time

There is no cheap ground source option

@@SkillBuilder DIY

Thank you Rodney, we love dollars

You are right. Soil type is important. But in sweden it does not really affect cop normally, but it affect how long piping that is required for the collector. Wet clay soil is the best, and sand the worst (if i dont remember wrong). We almost never use this slinky style. I dont think it is efficient.

@@bsod5608 Unfortunately I think you have remembered wrong about the soil type. There are a lot of variables in soil thermal conductivity including moisture content , compaction (air gaps), temperature of the soil, and of course type of soil. According to Oklahoma State University the conductivity for quartz (sand types) is the best at 8.8, clay is 3, and organic matter is 0.3, worst is air at .025 Because of the variables it is better to measure the actual conductivity on site. I expect you may be right about slinky collectors. However collecting heat from as much volume of soil as you can must surely be better when you are running 24/7 in winter? I have been getting a few cold calls over recent weeks about heatpumps and government grants etc. For the first time one of the callers actually admitted clay soils could be a problem. GSHP is infinitely better than ASHP in terms of cold weather performance , noise etc. If I didn;t have a huge shading problem from trees (protection order so can't fell them) I would now go for a PV system with battery storage, thermal collection for hot water.

@@michaelviney3737 yeah, onsite test is best if it is possible to carry out. Dont know if it is expensive. The moisture content as you said is important, and clay tend to hold water better than sand. But really wet quartz sand is far superior to clay, that is right. I looked up some reference values for differens soil types, and unfrozen [swedish] clay is typically 0,85 - 1,5 w/m, k. Frozen clay 2-2,8 w/m, k. Sand have a wider variety depending on its mineralorigin/water content, particle size, from 0.4 (dry) - 4. Pure quartz, as a rock is around 7.5 w/m, k. At least in my area, we never have pure quartz sand. I dont think clay is unsuiteble for geothermal heat, it is very common here around. its just a question of sizing of the collector. A house with about 6kW heatpump would proably need around 400 - 600 m collector in sweden, due to long winter. some more english reference-material. www.geothermal-energy.org/pdf/IGAstandard/WGC/2010/2952.pdf The slinky style may be more suitable for countries with a higher average outdoor temp than sweden. Local electric prices and cost for labour is probably changing how to optimize the system too. Its a basic investment cost vs operating cost. airsouce vs groundsorce is all about air-temperature. Its a lower investment, so if you live in an area with fairly high airtemperature/short winters its genreally favorable with ASHP. In south of sweden its more favorable with ASHP, in the north GSHP is more favorable.

@@bsod5608 Thank you for your reply. You are fortunate in Sweden to have built suitable houses for relatively low water temperature systems. We in the UK mostly live in houses built for higher water temperatures and the cost of retrofitting is high. I used to look forward to my visits to Sweden to see ASEA when they were building the nuclear power plant in Sweden. Later they merged with the Swiss Company Brown Boveri with whom we had projects in the Middle East. I'm afraid I do dislike ASHP having experienced them when living in Canada. But I expect they are correctly installed and operated in Sweden Good Luck

Clay is ideal as it holds water which enhances the heat transfer

You could also say it contains heat relative to outside at ground level.

He said above that the system in the vid cost £30,000. Zero chance the average joe like me will have that lying around so it's really only for people who need to heat their pool.

It's a video from the 90s he just re uploaded for some reason. He has been wasting time talking with heat-geek lately, probably something to do with that.

@@cuckingfunt9353 well I saw his heat pump rant and I think this makes a good case for why the quick fix ones won't work

@@cuckingfunt9353 that's the 00s not the 90s

You read our minds, It is coming soon and will be on Wednesday nights

I lived in a house with a ground source heat pump a while back and it was always nice and warm. It was a big system though so probably cost a fortune. My guess is that a smaller system with a boost for the coldest weeks would be more economical.

ground keeps a near constant temperature.

I'd be looking to apply exterior installation instead then - best not to lose heat in the first place than try and warm the air around the house. With power costs spiking at the moment, running the heat pump will also cost more.

There is nothing whatsoever to gain over your gas boiler. This job would cost you £30,000 or more depending on size.

Dont bother, air to air heat pump and combi boiler combination is way to go

Well if the damn USA stop trying to start wars in Ukraine and let Nord Stream 2 start operating then gas will be the cheapest option by far

Don't blame USA you moron. The eu is to blame for the Ukraine problem. So I guess you don't give a fig about the thousands of dead Ukrainians. You are hypocritical, ill -informed, greedy and cynical

You'd have to a long way to get more heat

Kilometres for geo and metres for ground source (This for UK with some tiny exceptions).

@@normanboyes4983 So where is the cut-off depth between sun-warmed ground and earth-core-warmed ground (on average in the UK)? Is there a level where it would be pointless installing a circulation system perhaps?

@@KendalSmithy over a kilometre

I have solar hot water, it is great.

Word!

Adds to total gdp debt, adds to more inflation, if you can't afford it then that's it

Yes, it can happen very quickly and we have seen cases where the ground has frozen. You can see a potential problem where the pipes run alongside the swimming pool.

@@SkillBuilder Truth is the daughter of Time, Roger!

Ground temp to 2-3 m depth varies seasonally (quite slowly across most of uk). Daily solar gain builds up “heat” , but heat is also being lost via evapotranspiration so there is quite a complex flow of heat in the shallow subsurface (esp if there is shallow groundwater too). GSHP systems are “supposed” to be engineered to factor in soil thermal conductivity (which controls how well the soil will absorb and transmit heat/cold. Conductivity is a function of soil type and moisture content - and these can change considerably with depth - as well as laterally not all soils are as uniform as the one that is this video). If the collector is not designed correctly (too shallow, too closely spaced), then the system can freeze the ground (simply dumping more “cold” than the soil can conduct away) the compact systems really do have to be designed carefully, slinkies - less so. The idea is to strike a balance over the year, during winter you extract heat from the ground, over the summer the ground recovers naturally via solar gain (if you run a reversible system for air conditioning, you can pump heat into the ground- which can cause plant distress as you desiccate it). Generally, shallow GSHP go in about 1m depth (checkout the video - are those folks super short? Walking along those trenches?). As a geologist (with some experience of GSHP in Europe) I think too many of these systems are still being installed far too shallow- installers use shallow trenches because of costs but also to avoid rules about shoring trench walls over 1.2m deep (trench support kit is costly). Thermal gain “sweet spot” for many uk soils is closer to 2m depth not 1m…it’s all about balancing that heat exchange- for which you want a steady temperature that you can work with and deeper is more stable than shallow. If your system is too shallow you may get marginal benefits in spring as the first 0.5m of ground warms up quickly, but you also run the risk of freezing as winter sets in and the solar gain tails off (there is a time lag as well- so it’s complicated ). If your system is too shallow (or you mess up the conductivity calcs) you really are going to end up not getting the COP=4.

Not with a water well system.....much much MUCH less expensive.

You can but it will freeze the road in no time

That is a better idea but not always possible. I would get as much separation as possible

It's amazing how well these systems apparently work in much colder climates than the UK, I do wonder why.

It works better with ground water than anything else. The water brings in more heat from the surrounding ground.

spot on

If you have gas, stick with it.

For how long? Gas prices are soaring and the stated government policy will be to reduce the differential between gas and electric costs per kWh in order to encourage the production and use of electricity and via wind and solar to deliver the reduced carbon emissions targets.

The situation is particularly acute if you live off the gas grid. Since moving into a property 5 years ago, supplied by lpg tanker deliveries, the cost per litre has risen from 32p/l to 55p/l. It has never dropped in that time only plateaued for brief periods before rising again. I can't imagine this trend changing, only continuing.

@@WirelessGriff Do you seriously believe the 6x difference between gas and electric, that based on the expected wholesale price increases in April of circa 40%, which will undoubtedly be more like 50% when it hits the retail market, making the difference between electric and gas around 10x different are going to be blended into a single rate? Furthermore, the wholesale rate increase expectation of 40% in April and a further 20pc in Sept are going to make such a colossal void between electric and natural gas, you've going to need devices with an impossible year round COP of 10+ to even compete on basic energy consumption. To say nothing of the capex of course..

Energy prices will change to the detriment of gas - it will be a political balancing exercise to achieve that. Currently the Green tariffs (25%) are applied to electricity and given the pledges at COP26 the logical first step is to remove from electric and apply to gas. But - I am still installing a new gas boiler in May 2022.

All the electronics are made in China, the units change every 5 minutes and nothing is compatible. Asides from the boards there are lots of other electronics dotted around, MOSFETS' mounted on heatsinks capacitors mounted in motors, loads to go wrong. Even if you go with one of the big manufacturers you will be no better off, parts will become obsolete and the whole unit will need to be replaced. Since the new outdoor unit will no longer be compatible with the indoor system, indoor unit replacement and re connection will be required. One big cluster fuck every 5-10 years.

@@cuckingfunt9353 Or just go with a Chinese Made System for 1/3 of the Price that has no fancy Inverter Controll and just let it run in steady states. That is my Plan. Everything else will be done via a regular Boiler. I fully agree with your statement. Just go as simple as it can be. My last Gas Boiler lastet almost 30 years, the one what replaced that old buity will be gone in latest 15 years.

Good comment, we are looking at heated jackets in a couple of weeks time

We will find out

Willem Dafoe?

lol Just what I was thinking! From recent research and pricing (for projects), I saw that it's likely the second generation / occupants that will see a financial benefit. If you get someone else to do everything (trench dig, install, etc.) it's probably around £30-40,000 but I very much welcome correction. Money is far better spent insulating first (just my opinion, but externally), before bringing in the heat.

What was the payback period on your car or iPhone……..?

@@normanboyes4983 wants and needs are different

@@electronicsandradio3945 It’s a good point apply economics to needs and spend like it’s going out of fashion on wants.

Brilliant

Most heat comes down into the near surface crust (solar).

This isn't Siberia. The deep ground doesn't get that cold.

That's what the back-up oil boiler is for.

@@paulhillman400 So the boiler does the heating when it's cold and the heat pump does the heating in the summer...when it's not required. Lol.

@@TurinTuramber , GSHP is more common in Germany and Sweden, systems there are well established as viable heating and -5 is nae bother….but uk housing stock and some poor over selling means they have had a dodgy start here..stayed in plenty of places where it was more an issue of trying to turn it down/off

No it could do with a bit of keyhole surgery

It is in the future

I bet your an Engineer 😂

@@markfox7207 Well done Sir, you're bang on. I am a retired mechanical engineer. Please don't hold that against me as no-one is perfect😂

Treble I agree with all you say and storing heat under ground won't work for that long. I think we need cheap energy, that should be our goal and there are lots of people working towards it.

You can buy ground mounted solar PV panels and storage batteries. That would help with the rising electric costs

This is ground source and it works better but this is not what most people will fit. The air source is not as good. I said in this video that insulation is the key.

No it isn't. Geothermal is heat generated by activity at a much lower level. Ground source is solar heat stored in the ground

@@SkillBuilder I'll stick.to the plant rooms good old boilers