As Jim says, you're going down the rabbit hole!! BUT, it's one of the better ones to go down, and boy is it a deep one! You are well on your way to falling in!. IMO, the four most knowledgeable people I know about is Jerry Ratlif (former owner of Southshore Archery Supply), AJ (AJ's Custom Arrows), George (owner of Straight Shooters Custom Arrows), and a guy that goes by FarmDeer on Crossbow Nation. My understanding of the basic concept for spine indexing is that you're finding the stiffest point, and it identifies the stiff plane of the arrow that runs through the center of the shaft, say from 12 o'clock to 6 o,clock. 90dg to the stiff plane is the neutral plane of the shaft, where all of the flexing occurs, and it would run through the 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock orientation. Find the stiffest point and index your fletching for all of your arrows to this point at either between the hens (12 o'clock) or in line with the cock vane at 6 o'clock. If you were going further enhance the consistency of a group of arrows and match spine numbers, the weakest number that you get from the neutral plane is the number you try to match, since that's where the arrow flexes, and not the stiffest point or plane. And, if the weakest number is on the left on one shaft, and on the right on another shaft, then you flip one of the shafts end-to-end so that the lowest spine numbers are all on the same side of the shaft, just like the stiffest spine point is all on the top or all on the bottom for every shaft. I told you this hole is deep! A couple of short comments: - when rotating the shafts on the indexer, use your finger at a point directly over the rollers at either end. that way the pressure you use to rotate it won't be picked up by the dial in the center. - some of the bumps that you see on the dial are caused by the logos. If you're able to center the dial in a logo free area, it works smoother. - speaking of smooth, the dial pin has a spring connected to it on the inside that when normally used helps with the pin movement, but for spine indexing purposes, removing this spring will increase the pin's sensitivity and aide when indexing. - normally logos are not an indicator of any stiff plane or neutral plane. - placement of the stiff point, either all between the hens or all in line with the cock vane for consistency. Hope this helps!
Yeah I have went down the rabbit hole a few times and just think it’s over kill honestly. Does it help… sure it does every little bit helps. Build confidence in knowing equipment thru and thru. When you take one it’s and break it down in reverse engineering mindset you can figure out some pretty cool things. I e learned a lot and done a lot of messing around. I’ve found a much easier and faster method that works great for me. But when I’m bored and feel like tinkering I do things like checking the arrow indexes. And nock tuning and paper testing and the chronograph. So many rabbit holes but the further understanding you have of your equipment and the way things work you can find ways to correct said problems. Idk just locks that confidence in for me…..
All this info is great if you want to spine your arrows, or you buy custom arrows i. e. AJs and not worry about the rabbit hole. But that was very informative Rich as I never knew how that worked.
I use a spine indexing unit I bought a few years ago. But what I have noticed on my zombie slayers, you can pull the knock out and see the spine of the arrow inside the shaft. Looks like a line running down the inside of the shaft. I tested this a few times and every time it was the same spot my spine indexer said was the stiff side of the shaft.
Just for clarification. Spine indexing is what our friend is doing. You briefly touched on spine matching, which is sorting spine indexed arrows by the measurement of deflection recorded from the dial indicator instrument on your machine. Simply group the indexed arrows with the same or very similar deflection measurements together and you have spine matched those arrows. The theory being that when shot, the amount of flex (noodle effect) of the spine matched arrows should be much more similar as compared to arrows that were only spine indexed and not sorted by deflection measurements. Arrows that flex differently in flight will definitely have different points of impact. Splitting hairs? Yes! But with these faster bows, the little differences in arrow flight increase pretty dramatically as opposed to slower bows. More energy pushing the arrow at the shot equals more arrow flex as it leaves the bow. If the bow is not tuned properly to start with (cam timing, barrel alignment, squareness) will make arrow flight difference increase in a big way. In the quest for perfect arrow flight, the devil is in the details. Generally..... the faster the bow is the more important the details become.
Hello Rich, I appreciate the extent of research and information you put into your videos. I have been archery hunting for 40 years, and I like to learn more about the hobby and lifestyle I have enjoyed so much over those years. However, I don't see me spine indexing arrows. For years I shoot a group of arrows, and I number the best shooting ones. I have three groups, and always hunt with the ones with the number 1 on them. The number 2 and 3 arrows I still use, but for practice. They still fly fine but not as well as the #1s. Maybe next year, when I retire from my full-time job, I may look into indexing. Thank you again for the great videos!
Wow, love this info. I have a dozen shafts that I target practice with. Each season I do this and find the 4 or 5 that all shoot the same. Those I hunt with. Not as cool as your methos but it works for me.
I would presume that as long as you have your arrows spiked all the same way,up,down,right,left your going to get more consistent arrow flight. To take it one step farther you orientate all your inserts ,so your broadheads are all indexed the same way
Holy makro Andy! Or in this case, holy makro Jimbo! Appreciate all you put into this vid, and all the other experts comments. I don't know who wouldn't. But I'm sure, a whole lot of people went.... what! Over my head type of thing!!!! When I was younger, shooting a compound, I used to do all the stuff you went through and other guys talk about, and then some. Now that I shoot a crossbow, don't do that anymore. When I first started shooting the crossbow, I bought cheaper/midrange bolts. Half or more were pretty damn good shooters. The other half would drive me crazy, wondering if I was losing it or had to adjust the scope or something. Made the mindset to go with quality bolts. Quality bolt manufacturers, most of them, and of course custom bolt makers, take all that guesswork and fine tuning out of the equation so you can just practice and have fun. Sure, every once in a blue moon, I get a goofy one. Not often. There's a small part of me that misses doing that, but I prefer to do more scouting, food plotting where needed/ applicable, prepping gear, practicing shooting and just getting out in the field where I feel most alive. But, golly g, holly Bob, doubt this discussion is going to go away very soon. I heard at least one guy say, it might be, because you're crossbow is out of tune properly. Not sure I buy that one. Cuz it would be happening a hell of a lot more than, once in a blue moon. For what it's worth, I did a Johnny Appleseed bolt last year. Meaning I went, right through, dead nuts, center, of the first bolt I shot, with the second. Tough way to lose a pricey bolt, but it did show me the inside of a bolt. Pretty interesting how the carbon fibers are spun around into a shaft. And how there is a buildup of more fibers in certain areas. Probably true on all bolts. Anyways, if anyone might want to cut one open, I think they might find it interesting. Not saying anybody's more right or wrong, in this discussion. I just buy better bolts myself. Good vid.😊
What some people don’t get is that,for some, 24:31 it’s the tinkering with your equipment that brings enjoyment and satisfaction. I could get the crossbow out, check the scope and go shoot a couple of deer.Season over! BORING!!! Like you I like trying new things to see what works. (Retired on a fixed budget) I don’t spend a lot but I sure enjoy my time shooting, reserving,setting up stands and blinds. My season starts in spring. Planting food plots and repairing any equipment. Love your posts. Happy hunting. ALL HAIL.
When you rotate the arrow on the spine indexer (machine), do so by putting your finger directly in line with the bearing on the end. If you touch the arrow where you were in this video, you are affecting the weight with your fingers.
But it is pretty cool to see you do this and just how much we hunters do to have the best performing equipment we can.. I know I am very particular with my arrows and broadheads. Constantly checking and making sure nothing got messed up walking thru woods or even traveling to and from the woods.. the mega meat broadheads like to reach out and grab everything. Leading to me replacing the plastic retention collars. Good as new
I buy Victory arrows for my compound bow, because they come spine aligned from the factory. The spine is marked & the cock vane is aligned with it. It saves the hassle of spine aligning arrows. Spine alignment is worth doing, especially when shooting broadheads. I would want the same crossbow bolts.
Checking this out the R F recommended knock tuning my arrows I really can't do that, the knoc k s are glued in and will not move really need to check into this great information keep it coming. ALL HAIL BENJIE RETIRE FROM THE DA THING THIS IS YOUCALLING THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT
Rich, do you have slo mo footage of when the arrow has just left the bow? Which way is the arrow bending. This may help you on which position to place the cock vane. Great video and thanks for all of the info.
Hey Rich. Love learning more and more about crossbows during Crossbow Appreciation Month. Question about arrow “straightness”: I see most are guaranteed to be anywhere from .001 to .005 standard deviations of straightness. Is there any correlation between straightness, and arrow weight, range of shot, and speed?
Short answer no... straightness just increases accuracy though according to most people, but it is not affect weight, range of shot other than accuracy and it does not affect speed
If you look at the video of the arrow doing the "wheelie" as you phrased it. It's also about having proper spine not just lining things up or making them equal. It takes a radically different arrow to shoot out of like the OB than it would out of the Scorpyd.. Speed isn't a free meal... You start impeding your true ability to penetrate if your arrow isn't spined properly. That for deer isn't likely to be an issue but if you were hunting moose, buffalo. larger bear are even elk it would be a factor.. Look at videos from the Ranch Fairy and he goes into a very deep dive into arrow flight and many other arrow related issues.. That and if you wanted to shoot fixed blade heads and maintain accuracy spine indexing, spine matching and proper spine are much more of an issue than one would perceive with mechanical broadheads..
I've followed discussions about nock tuning and spine indexing many times before. But now comes some curiosity prompted from another one of your videos where you were building arrows for Bunjie 2.0. You glued in the inserts with JB Weld and then before they dried you aligned the wings on the Swhackers to lay flat. Nock tuning would require you to have to reinstall the inserts the same way you would have to rotate your nocks during this process. Before going down the spine indexing rabbit hole, did you reinstall your inserts after nock tuning for the broadhead alignment that you demonstrated?
No one actually it doesn't really work to align the broadheads because they all screw in differently, with the ones that we use the swahackers it doesn't matter they fly straight anyway. Broadhead tuning is for fixed blades more so.
The arrow wrap is going to throw off your spine index because it has an overlap just like the carbon. Not in the flex but in the distance off the roller
Interesting, I I'm sure there's some truth to that but keep in mind that's the arrow I'm shooting so in the end the spine with the wrap on is exactly the spine I'm trying to find
The Frugal Sportsman has another great technique to spine tune- for around $10 and a pipe clamp anyone can do it. This machine might be too over engineered for a dyi’er to build at home. Great video nevertheless
It's what I use, and it's pretty easy. My setup was about $30 total. Throw in about $6 in Smith Bros points for each end and you have the most consistent index for that first bend I've ever seen.
@@YoureSoVane the point of my recommendation is the ease of use and simplicity of his technique. To each his own but if someone doesn’t have a setup already that’s way easier to build and use
I tried the pipe clamp bend test. Did a dozen Amazon bolts and it seemed to work, but then tried some Bloodsport Witness bolts and could make them bend the same direction regardless of how I turned them, so was useless and I quit.
I would like to see you make a video of your trail cameras. How you set them up? Where you put them? Do you even use them? Do you have your targets picked out already. I can see you and gena at the table talking about the big one coming in. Laughing and joking who is going to shoot it and all that. Got to be some decent bucks coming to the hundred year old apple tree. I got a small apple tree in my back yard just one small tree and I have caught so many deer eating the apples straight from the tree branches. And some big ones at that.. they know that tree is there and when the fruit is ready for them
I your arrow is riding a rail then spine up because it won't flex down. If you are shoot a crossbow where the arrow is floating then I would think up or down would work.
I noticed on your first arrow that the orange vein wasn't fully attached to the arrow when you spun it. Is this just in prep for putting new veins on the arrow?
No, they're good stuff but my problem with them is the fact that I love the burt coyote Lumenoks and they will not work with them, because they have an insufficient amount of carbon in them can you believe that? Carbon is in the name even LOL
I am sure the number will be different but I am not going for the number. The location of the spine is really what I was going for and I think it would be the same either way.
@@peterp1143 thanks for the heads up by the way because even if the numbers change, which they do, the Arrow does seem to fit in The Jig better when it's reversed. It puts the weight in the middle of the arrow better instead of a little bit off to one side if that makes any sense.
I just pay darn good money for straight arrows then I shoot them to find the straight ones by picking out any flyers then I take those and try to nock tune them. Obviously keeping those for the last of the arrows being shot. But honestly the arrows I buy are pretty darn good think maybe one flyer out of 12 arrows and that one was still hitting pretty close just not stacking ontop of the other ones…
Spine indexing is a major factor to precision of the arrows. They flex the same leave the same land the same and thus you can make your turret and or speed ring adjustments and make them as accurate and precise as they can get. Now it’s the shooter that’s the problem hhahahahahah.
💯 I am the problem haha but that brings up a very good point, we want to eliminate as many other problems so that the only problem left is us that we we can work on us
if the arrow rotates whats the point of putting the same vane down, you ever heard of chaos theory? and depends on how the layers are laid the spine might even be twisted, and if the vanes make the arrows rotate at different speeds your theory has no validity. get a cam with lots of frames/second then you will be able to see 1. speed of rotation 2. wobble of the arrow 3. flight of the arrow 4. if it starts to get out of direction 5. when the strange behavious starts 6. whats the type of behaviour, you are trying to correct something without really knowing whats causing it.
@@Deathbybunjie with a high-fps cam you would see exactly what happens with a blurry fotage you can barely see something happening and only guess why. then you really cant correct anything because you dont know what exactly is causing it. its like driving with blinds on, will we get there hmm not at the first try or the second or ever. just do guesswork instead of taking a bit more scientific approach taking the guesswork out of it. you can do whatever you want but just guessing is not gonna help you much and spending lots of time without a conclusion its a bit like the archers paradox before we understood it because we could not see what was happening, you see even very expensive arrows have issues not being the same and slight differences making them not hit a quarter at 50y some will some wont and they might not hit it consistenly because of many reasons, just thinking that only the straightness or vanes is foolish. have fun doing work and not to come to any real conclusion just guesses. and guessing wont take you anywhere proof will.
