I have always told people new to long range shooting they dont need anything better than the chargemaster, with this test it shows you will be no more out than 0.1 of a grain which equates in my 7-270 WSM as a variance of 7FPS and often my gun will show an ES sub 10
There are grooves in the inner wall of the discharge tube, which helps it spread out the grains a little. The smooth wall of the cartridge allows the grains to flow more freely, with less separation and control.
I’m using ball powder. I did the plastic straw mod where you cut a piece of plastic drinking straw and put it in the dispenser tube. Also, I changed the fast and slow settings to fine tune it. (There is a video on RU-vid of how to do this. It’s also in the owners manual). I tested mine by throwing 10 charges of 42.0 grains then weighing them on my lab scale which is accurate to .02 grains. My AVG was 41.942, SD of .033267, ES of .08. I think the Chargemaster 1500 is pretty accurate for the cost. Before dispensing loads I turn it on and let it warm up for 5 minutes. Then I run 1 or 2 loads through it just to even out the powder in the dispensing tube. After that I do my reloading.
Its an old video but for 109.95 its definately a inexpensive way to throw a more accurate load. I'm to cheap to spend the 2-3K for the pro setup. The cheapest scale I can find to read .0001g was 1600.00 so I will just try both ways and see if accuracy improves any. Thanks Eric.
Have one of the early RCBS electronic powder chargers. I never use it because my powder measure throws more consistent charges. I had an old 505 scale which was a lot more consistent for trickling. When it broke I went to a powder measure. With my 505 I was actually able to thew and trickle faster than the electronic measure when you factor in all the over charges I had to dump back into the powder hopper.
old video I know but want to mention a few things. Always close the doors while weighing with these sensitive scales air movement even very slight will affect them, also and most important they should be leveled on their own leveled table or block or atleast dont have anything next to them/touching them that has moving parts or can cause vibrations this will easily throw them off. Theyll pick up a light tap on a solid granite table a few feet away. Allow some time for warm up and have a good consistent QC process with a range of certified weights and track it. This is a few things an accredited lab would do while using these types of scales to get accurate readings.
The Sartorius GD 503 was replaced by the Entris 64-1s I believe. Retail is about $1,500 but on accurate shooter forum there is a dealership advertising them for about $1,000. I enjoyed the video Erik!
Why would anyone need 0.1 mg readability on the above mentioned sartorial us scale? Isn’t that an overkill since 0.1 grains is like 6.5 mg? Wouldn’t the cheaper 1 mg feasibility scales be just as good?
Thanks for the info on the beep. The over throws made me retire my chargemaster and go back to my Harrels powder drop and trickler. I'll give the case over the stem trick a try. After I turn off that beep.
I have the Chargemaster light. If I run 4350 or powders that have long granules I get a lot of over throws. Smaller powders I have found to be super consistent. I double check about 6th round with a beam scale and never had an issue with Lite. My loads are for hunting so if I was off as much as .1 of a grain it would not bother me at all.
I think your test were the same results as mine but I used a beam scale instead , the charge master is a 1 tenth scale I like to verify with another scale also , thanks for your input
You have convinced me that I don't need anything more than the RCBS Chargemaster! I do trickle up now though, just because I am less likely to over-throw that way. You have demonstrated on one of your other videos that you have a node 6 grains wide, so the error of a single kernel here is probably not significant at the end of the day. One thing to notice is that the Chargemaster error was always over, never under. Of course for a device that reads to only one decimal place, a true weight of 30.00gr and up to 30.09gr will both read as 30.0gr, so it is more likely to have errors over than under I suspect. If this is the case, perhaps it's best to keep to the lower end of your node? Another thing, the smallest unit you can add with that powder is 0.04 gr (a single kernel) so there is no point being able to resolve any finer than that, is there? Also, you didn't mention how or if you calibrated the two scales, or checked each with known weights. My calibration pack tells me to avoid picking them up with bare fingers, and to use tweezers instead. Not sure how much a greasy fingerprint weighs, but each time you picked up the tray, you added it!
Here's the rub for me. Not every kernel of powder burns during the shot. You can watch many slo-motion videos of the powder kernels chasing the bullets out of the barrel. Sometimes the kernels burn late, or not at all. Thus they are just sprayed out behind the bullet and wasted. Especially with slow burning powders that are still burning long after the bullet has left the barrel.
Erik. Great video. Very interesting. I put a little powder on a white towel and use a spoon to put one kernel at a time! Basically the same thing! It was nice the why you proved the technique. We do this for the reasons we do it, ignore any negative comments....
The easiest way to change the feed rate on any auto-trickler is to change the angle of the feed tube by placing a spacer under the front feet of the unit. I've been using the RCBS for a few months now and love it. HOWEVER, for small pistol loads mine ran too fast & furious and always went over. After lengthy use of explitives I simply put a 3/8" spacer under the front feet to decrease the angle of the feed tube and make it less aggressive (my spacer was actually .390 thick, but the feet on the unit are adjustable). With the spacer my pistol loads were 99% reliable. One thing to keep in mind is that most reviews for ANY auto-measure list over-charging as an issue, and decreasing the angle of the feed tube will be an easy fix for any brand. If you have over-charges for rifle as well, then just raise the front and decrease the angle. Spread the word. :-)
@@VincitOmniaVeritas7 Personally I don't see the 1/4" riser as a problem, but you raise a good question. I will listen to anyone who says it does affect the performance. The biggest factor for me is a warm-up time of 2-3 hours for stable readings.
Okay so I’m considering picking up a RCBS Match Master for 799 dollars. Would I be better served by just picking up a Sertorius and the trickler like you have in this video Eric. Because all these scale videos are really driving me nuts.
Charge master value that it shows rounds out the charge to a the tenth of a grain which means internally it measures to maybe to .025 or .050 for example. While the sartorius measures even smaller internally and spits out a rounded out number even more finer than the charge master.
I have been loading on a CM1500 for years and can get most of my loads under 5FPS ES, some are around 1FPS ES. It's not the CM that is doing the work, it's all the other factors like brass, primers, neck tension, temp and so forth. I just don't buy the 1 or 2 kernel difference would make in your ES. I would love to see someone do a blind test over a chrono on equally prepped brass and loads from a CM1500 vs a Prometheus.
I guess I'm old school. I use a manual Hornady powder measure and drop charges, weighing each one and adjusting up or down until I get five in a row spot on. Then I charge cases one at a time, rechecking every tenth or so. I get very consistent charges much more quickly than this machine can produce, assuming the results I see in this video are the best it can do. So, in my experience, the best way to make it more accurate would be to put it in its box and get an old school powder dropper and a scale.
Hey buddy, really like the video. Attention to detail is always important good job made me laugh at the end. Thanks for the advice. Yours truly art bogden Pittsburgh PA
I've noticed your powder is tricking off center to the edge of the pan. Also when you set the pan to weight on Sartorius scale you also don't center. Maybe it's just my cheap Franklin scale, but the weight measurement can vary whenever I have bulk of the weight on the edge or in the center.
I do the conversion to grams, which gives me 2 decimal places instead of 1, stumbled across that while calibrating. Hoping it’s more accurate and consistent.
I noticed that the Sartorius floated by the same delta as the Chargemaster threw. The chargemaster showed -153.665 through -153.695 throughout the video. Could that help explain part of the delta? I would not expect the Chargemaster to hit 30.000 every time, just curious
Hey, Erik ~ THANKS for turning me onto the Dandy Trickler.......it is GREAT !!! Loading a little faster with a lot more precision now. Wish I could afford the Prometheus and Sartorious products. Do have the Giraud annealer and case trimmer on order. Thanks again for sharing so much! Rollin
Since I bought that Dandy Trickler, I bought the Chargemaster 1500, just ordered a Mitutoyo Calipers, have the Giraud trimmer and annealer..... Gotta quit watching Erik Cortina videos, I'm going broke! Thank goodness I have my own Barndominium, had an Arco Steel put up two years ago and put a fancy shop into it.....the rest is garage and storage including attic, plus my wife's green room. Thanks, Eric!!! Stay Well !!
Thanks for the video Erik. I also have a Chargemaster, which I am frustrated with. About 60% of the time (no actual statistics) overcharges using either RL22 or 4831SC. If I re-enter the charge weight sometimes that helps. The beep does drive me crazy as well. Your extension with the case looks very good, I'll try something like that.
John Leake As you can see, if you hold down the "zero" button long enough it will turn the beep off. Make sure you don't spill powder all over your bench when you do so! ;)
I dispense with RCBS lite and trickle up with omega to an EJ-123. With Varget, the RCBS is within 0.04gr of reading as accurate as the AND EJ-123. It will fluctuate up and down a little over 2-3 hours of work. I'm still amazed at the accuracy.
I just now viewed this, lol, but chasing prairie dogs in WY. and running 1000s of rounds of. 223, I wore out a Lyman then a Hornady auto charge. The best thing I came up with is to place a sharpie cap over the tube with a proper sized hole drilled in the end for the kind of powder being dispensed and the overcharge loads stopped. BTW Hornady would recondition my unit but wanted more than buying a new one. Shoot straight.
You're really pushing the boundaries of your gear here. It's cool to watch. The proper thing to do would be to get better gear but at the same time that's not always possible or affordable so one has to work with what they have. In engineering speak the area between one increment and the next is referred to as "quantization error." That means that anything in between is merely a guess. When you add your Satorious to the mix that obviously increases the precision you can measure to. Without it you're estimating what you're trickling in which is still doable but is dependent on the skill of the person doing the trickling and the ability of the Chargemaster to measure a weight it can not put on the screen consistently. Then again, also worth asking is how much many FPS deviation is one kernel of powder worth in a load up with all else being equal? I'm betting you've done some testing on this question at one point or another and based on the video just given it's enough to have some form of meaning to you in the rules format you shoot in.
To mute the beep on your RCBS ChargeMaster 1500, follow these steps- Hold Down the Zero Button: When the beep occurs at the end of each cycle, press and hold the “Zero” button until the display shows “beep off.” Repeat to Restore Beep: If you want to restore the beep function later, repeat the same procedure by holding down the “Zero” button.
I throw within about 2-3tenths of a grain less than the necessary charge weight with my Harrels. Then I trickle up with my Omega to the right weight. I don't have a Sartorius, I do have an A&D FX-120I which will measure, with most powders, down to the kernel. I wonder what powder you were using in your demonstration. My FX will not measure 1 kernel of VV N140 or RL-15. With those powders it takes 2 kernels. But with everything else I have tried, it will measure to 1 kernel. I noticed that the Chargemaster, by itself, will only measure to within 2 kernels of the powder you were using. H4350 on the FX shows H4350 needs only 3 kernels to move 1 tenth of a grain. So if the Chargemaster will average 2 kernels, it is moving H4350 nearly a tenth back or forth (+ /-) which would translate to 1/10th up or down between charges. On large cases, I guess it would be tolerable, However, I wonder what it would do with RL-15 which could translate to + or - 4-5 kernels with each charge dispensed. That could make a difference with smaller cases OR if you happen to be operating at the upper end of your node..
i had a bad experience with my rcbs lite throwing radical charges , i now double check every charge on a beam scale, maybe o.c.d. but a better piece of mind
The Dandy two speed trickler is still available. I bought one just a few months ago. They run $106. dandyproductsllc.com/products/dandy-2-speed-electric-powder-trickler
Good Video thanks for the hard work here’s a question. if I’m shooting around the size of a dime at 100 yards with the CM1500 is that good Enough at 1000 yards
I picked up one of the new Chargemasters that you can use an app with. I loaded 4 rounds with it, put it in the box, and put the old one (like yours) back on the bench. It might be interesting to shoot 5 with xx charge and then load 5 with xx charge plus 1 kernel of powder.
This is really interesting. What this tells me, is my RCBS is no better than the better mechanic powder dispensers, and of course the latter are much faster.
This is all new to me but do you weigh each bullet ? To see if that would change how much powder load you should use. each bullet can't weigh exactly the same...
+michaelo1492 I weigh each bullet and separate them into different batches. I then load them in batches to maintain consistency. I don't change powder charge to compensate for bullet weight.
Great video! Thanks for sharing this information, I was about to buy a sartorius but now it doesnt feel necessary :) On a sidenote, it would be interesting to know how much the ES or standard deviation in load weight translates to the ES and standard deviation in mussle velocity. Especially between volume sorted casings vs unsorted. Do you know which factor is the most important one to keep track of, if the goal is to reduce the ES in mussle velocity? ;)
+scratchninja Neck tension will give you the most gains in accuracy. I use a Sartorious for my competition loads, but I also turn necks, sort brass, sort bullets, trim bullets, and point bullets among other things. Accuracy is expensive and time consuming! ;)
@@ErikCortina I use ion beam case and bullet zero deviance machine. 1.2mill i put into it. But then i fucked the theory up by shooting it outside of a fucking vacuum tube. I come to realize that wind change is different througought distance. A friend of mine won bench rest competitions with a fucking savage stainless barrel ,athlon scope and just loading within 1/10th gr. and within .5gr bullet weight, and within .005 bullet runout , and within .001 seating depths.
I'm very curious, does volume of powder vs. weight and case volume affect combustion? There has to be a lot going on in the cartridge. Love your channel! Keep up the good work!
Hey Erik, if you ever get a chance, I would love to see your current reloading process from beginning to end. Do you use a more simplistic process like a lot of short-range benchrest shooters do on the firing line, or do you go through more "advanced" processes like bullet pointing, using various sorting methods, loading by the kernel, using an arbor press with Wilson seaters while measuring seating pressure, or anything else? I'm always intrigued to see the different methods of the ultra high-end shooters.
I use a "more advanced" process. I use custom F/L sizing dies, Wilson style seaters, trim meplats, point bullets, anneal brass, sort bullets, use a hydro press for seating bullets, and dispense powder with a Prometheus II.
Thanks for replying Erik. It still means a lot to me even after all this time. What is the press that you use for seating? Do you have any opinions about the new Mec Marksman press? I have been looking at getting a Co-Ax for a long time, but I think the Mec Marksman might be a better fit.
ashiha I seat Bullets with a hydro press from 21st century. Get the Co-Ax press, you will be very happy with it. The MEC press is a "standard" ram design, the co-ax works better than those presses.
I use the Chargemaster to run a charge .2 under then transfer it to a balance beam scale and trickle up. I don't have an expensive Sartorius but with a balance beam scale I can watch it change with just one kernel of powder... as shown, the Chargemaster won't do that.
Dima Prok There is someone I know working on a powder trickler that would interface through the data port on the Sartorious scale for very accurate charges. I don't know how close he is to releasing his trickler so I don't want to say anymore about it. The other way is to get a Prometheus Gen II as it is very fast and extremely accurate.
Erik Cortina Interesting... I am not quite there yet, I though spending close to 300 on Chargemaster was a lot :-) and I bought it really only to try it but now that I loaded 600 rounds, I don't know if I can return it.... I like it and RCBS $50 rebate brings it down under 250. Originally I was going to get a "good" scale around $100 bucks and omega trickler, (after watching your video I was really impressed with Omega). For the price I think I'll keep it. Update: Even with all the "mods" it was still giving me .2 points of spread and that simply was not the accuracy I was looking for so I returned and got Gem Pro 250 scale and made my own Omega style trickler which cost me buck 59 to make it, the scale was $142. I don't like the scale because it has small numbers and lousy viewing angle and feels really cheap made and negative weight drifts and when I put empty pan back sometimes it's off by 0.10 grain! RCBS scale that came with Chargemaster was much better quality, it rarely drifted and negative weight was consistent most of the time, it just didn't have the same resolution as GemPro. I don't want to spend crazy amount of money on scale so I guess I am stuck with Gem Pro 250 for now. I wish RCBS had a scale with better resolution, I would buy one and they have engineers that actually put some though in to design.
+Erik Cortina This is the first video i've watched on your channel and thanks for the learning experience. I learned something new. I was going to ask where i could get a scale like that but after seeing the price haha... But, where can i get an electronic trickler like you have? Again, great video!
But I do my quick throw with one of my lyman gen 6 then dump into my a&d ej-54d2 . I drilled a perfectly fitted hole for the dandy trickle to fit and bam..perfect every time.. take a min of two but worth it
Erik is there any trick to the casing for the powder reducer or just cut a casing with the pipe cutter and fit it to the tube with tape and go from there? Thanks this video helped me tremendously as a new reloader.
Nice video, interesting result: with the tricker you are 2x more accurate, but meaningless in reloading. 2 kernels won't make a difference in velocity, SD or anything else. For peace of mind it helps, but in real world shooting, probably not going to make much difference. Especially if you are loading into an accuracy node vs just a random load.
Not meaningless at all. I compete at 1,000 yards regularly and it matters, that's the reason I have a Sartorious scale. If you are in the middle of a node, it won't matter much, but if you travel like I do and find yourself on the edge of a node due to temperature differences, it's better to have your powder charge as consistent as possible so that you can stay in the node even if you are on the edge.
side question to anyone: if i get a 30 inch custom barrel and wanted a 20inch barrel for 308. if chamber length is 2.8-2.9, then do i subtract this value from 30inch. so the actual length of barrel is 22.9 inches? secondly, if diameter at muzzle is 1 inch, then is 3/4-24 or 28 thread more secure for brake or suppressor vs 5/8-24?
***** EDIT: There is good video on you tube on reprogramming RCBS Chargemaster, although I have to say it really depending on your powder charge. I had to experiment to find right values. I also did straw mod and it improved, but wasn't perfect, I tried cutting the end of straw jagged and it worked well at first but became worse later. Also this mod was horrible because I ended up spilling powder all the time when I removed pan. A straight straw is better. Finally I decided to try something similar to Erik's mod, except I picked a smaller 5.7 casing and cut it in half, chucked it in drill and sand it a little on the outside and crimped the neck to make it even smaller and then inserted inside, it fits well. First 20 or so throws were exactly 18gr and later it started to deviate. It seems like any mod I do works really well initially and then gets worse. I think to really prevent overthrows I really need to restrict powder flow, so when it trickles, it doesn't drop 4-5 kernels at a time, but 1-2 at a time at last trickle stage. Here's my last results from 50 throws. 30 charges were right at 24.5gr, combined 20 charges (40%) were overthrown. 13 charges (26%) deviated +0.1gr and 7 charges (14%) deviated 0.2gr, this was with Accurate 2495.
You are trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Have you considered this... lose the chargemaster, get a good powder drop and trickle up to your specified weight on the Sartorius. It would faster. Oh, and use a manual trickler.
+Bryce Gouldson ....and after you've saved enough $$$, you'll need to do quite a bit of searching - they don't make this model any more. :( It took me about 2 months or so b4 I found one. :)
I understand your curiosity about improving accuracy, but using a separate trickler to get a grand total of one powder granule more accuracy totally defeats the purpose of the dispenser, and you won't see any improvement in group size, even if you are a long range benchrester. This was mildly interesting, but it's a total waste of time from a practical aspect.
Testing 50 loads, I've had the same 0.2 grains accuracy with the ChargeMaster. So I use the charge master to get the load within 0.2 grains and trickle up on my Sagittarius 100th of a grain scale.
Sir, with all respect, you're at the point of, if not just past, the point of diminishing returns. I was half expecting some editing within the setup menu, to actually improve the accuracy of the Chargemaster itself, not showing what experienced loaders already know; throw low, trickle up.
redleg1013 You have to understand that not everyone is an experienced reloaded. Experienced reloaders don’t need help, they already know what to do... well, at least some of them. ;)
I appreciate absolute accuracy, but do not understand the need for more than tenth of a grain accuracy when most nodes are wider that a couple of full grains.
@@ErikCortina Ooooohhhh Nooooode! Whatever the width in grains (of the node) start a third from the bottom. More often than not, the problem is environmental conditions that push the velocity beyond the upper control limit.
