I think you should bump the damage a little on the SMGs and then increase the drop off more. Then the SMGs are superior in close ranges, but awful elsewhere...THAT is a better balance I think, but yea, this is much better than before.
The real change that SMG need in PUBG that would give them a reason to exist vs ARs would be they fit in doorways and other situations where normally your gun would point upward due to lack of space. I think it would give them a distinct advantage when doing indoor combat and a reason for them to be used more.
Agreed. This seems to me the whining of a player who just wants the same stale meta as always. Year over year over year with AR dominance. A few months with SMGs being a comparable sidegrade and suddenly it's a huge problem that needs to be fixed. It also isn't clear to me why "logikully" it isn't acceptable for an SMG to do more damage against unarmored limbs for an armored player. They specialize in moving lead. High quantities of lead into an unarmored leg is going to be better than smaller quantities of lead into a heavily fortified chest. Doesn't seem like some kind of unforgivable sin against realism to me, especially in a game where you teleport around between car seats for drivebys.
Would like to see other advantages to SMG than just time to kill. Like make them more agile in close quarters. Also increase ADS speed. Another difference between the SMGs and ARs is the number of bullets required to kill a target. SMGs require more bullets and so will make you run dry faster. This is not so much of a problem in solos, but playing squads it may become an issue when dealing with more enemies at the same time.
Make them more agile? They already strafe faster with almost 0 negative effect to recoil/sight sway. They already hip fire better. Coupling that again with strafing faster with hardly any negative effect.
logically smg ammo has a very rough time going through armour and has a very easy time causing bodily harm with hollow point bullets for instance. Assault rifles on the other hand have a region where they cause assive cavitation but otherwise over penetrate extremities. Basically it actually makes perfect sense to have more damage done to limbs. It may not be preferable to some as a game mechanic but is how it works.
I would say it's about fun and variation in play style. ofc you can balance and make everything behave like expected, but then you get a dry generic shooter like all the other ones.
they should make SMG hip fire(not aim) more accurate so in close quarters you get an edge by not having to ADS. this would make them better at close quarters the entire point of picking up a SMG. With the suggestions in the video not as they are now.
I think part of the reason they do the limb damage bonus is so when you run around and hipfire with an smg (hence your bullets naturally just spread out more) you still do a reasonable amount of damage. But I guess people really don't like that.
for me personally i hope smg ammo are significantly lighter. so there is logistical upper hand to consider rather then purely damage and recoil. giving you more able to carry one or two extra options.
If they did this I know so many people who would come back to the game. I worked so hard just to be decent at this game only to die to a brand new player shooting me in the pinky toe with an smg while I’m hitting head/chest shots with an AR is so very discouraging.
exact!! I left the game because I felt that it was of no use learning to control an AKM if any new fly can carry such a powerful and easy-to-use weapon.
I'm no firearms expert or user, but I think I can understand logic behind SMGs doing more damage to limbs. Assuming following is true IRL (please correct me, if I'm wrong): - 7.62mm ammo has enough velocity and weight to have good penetration on main body (dense, ribcage, internal organs) - 5.56mm ammo is lighter than 7.62, has enough velocity but lacks in mass to have good penetration power on main body and is prone to ricochets and trajectory changes when encountering even slightest obstacles - 9mm ammo is heavier than other two, but as it's heavier and has less gunpoweder for propellant, it really lacks in speed and penetration power for longer distances - .45acp is even heavier than 9mm So based on above we could get following situation: - 7.62 has higher penetration power and can just shoot through limbs as long as it doesn't hit bones - 5.56 might ricochet or just shoot through limbs due to velocity - 9mm and .45acp lacking penetration power might shoot through if it's close enough, but otherwise will be stuck inside limb doing damage As I said - I'm no expert and I'm just using my (most likely) flawed logic here. But if I can come up with it, someone in Krafton might have had as well.
smg's do more damage on the limbs cause the ricochet inside and dont exit, while on a vest they would stop. Plus nerfing smg's on long range while 90% of of every map is open field doesnt make sense
I think a significant reason for the JS9's success is that people are putting scopes on it and you can spray accurately at a decent range, you would be better off with a DMR or AR at those mid ranges, but it enables you to run bolt action snipers with SMGs and not feel like you are shooting yourself in the foot. That is one of the reasons I love the VSS (it fits my playstyle more than any other gun as well) but being able to run VSS bolty is very nice.
@@opendomendo or use a 6x zoomed out like a normal person. But no there are better things at mid range (I know wacky was saying damage should fall off before 100 meters but in my opinion anything under 100 is still close range)
@@JamesonHuddle I agree. It isn't clear to me why Wacky seems to think that SMG should be gated to a range so tiny that shotguns are still more effective.
Seems to me the extra limb damage was an attempt to intice players into using (and perhaps sticking with) SMGs in a match. Despite the fix you propose making sense, I'm sure SMGs would end up being used even less, which I feel is a problem too. IMHO I would like to see a change that makes choosing an SMG a viable option over swaping it out as soon as possible for an AR. Kind of sad that the only reason to use an SMG is because you have no other choice in a hotdrop scenario (at least is the case for me right now) I've never once thought to my self "I think I will go with an SMG this match" (other than the JS9)
This is exactly it!! The game has a ton of guns, yet most of the community chooses to use about 4. If you make the SMGs weaker, theyre not going to be picked up at all.
I feel like you haven't played enough PUBG for fun if you've never thought "I'm gonna run a Bizon/Vector with a VSS this game". I've won chicken dinners with probably every weapon in the game, it's not that PUBG is terribly unbalanced. People just hate getting killed in the toes by an SMG instead of having to control a good spray around center mass.
@@MetalRob81 Don’t get me wrong, it’s hilarious when you win a fight cause you could see the enemies toes. Not as funny when it happens to you. I just think the SMG limb damage multiplier promotes bad aim habits that hurt once a player steps up to the Beryl or AKM.
@@BoostFiend_Bud Oh don't get me wrong, I absolutely have used weapons for the fun of it (I watch Wacky after all 😁). All I meant was it would be nice if SMGs were not simply "just for the fun of it" and become something players would pick to use more often, like ARs. The JS9 is a good example, I will drop an AR for a JS9 in any game, and I agree with Wacky, they should reduce its spawn rate, so not everyone ends up with one.
If they were to keep weapons with better limb damage than torso/head, the only way that I could see that being a thing, it would be by introducing softpoint ammunition. They are purposefully made to splinter and fragment upon entering the body. Kevlar vest easily stop them due to them sacrificing their penetration power to instead shatter upon impact. If they were to introduce softpoint ammunition, them it would make sense for them to deal more damage to limbs/unprotected torso/unprotected heads and have worse damage against armors and vehicles, but this would throw the balance out of wack and complicate ammo (Assuming that there would be soft point and hard point for multiple calibers). I'd say that simply getting rid of smg limb multiplication and instead buffing their close range damage and nerfing their long range stats would be the smartest choice for the health of the game
Honestly i just want smg only useful in close to mid range fight. And they really need to make damage over distance for smg decrease faster after more than 50m. Also bulley velocity.... What i want to say is : make smg ONLY good for close range fight. That's it. 👍
@@far2ez😂boring is the current goal children with butter fingers who do not know how to control an Akm!! It's boring to play against queers who always hide behind a wall without moving
But with a lot of players running recoil control scripts now… they basically turn an AR like the Beryl into a JS9. I don’t feel you can get caught up in wanting to fix a problem like this while ignoring the problem of people who cheat. I know there are always gonna be cheaters and there always have been but these changes described only affect honest players. And there’s really no way to stop a recoil script user… a lot of players use them and to my knowledge have never been caught. So changes like these only serve to penalize honest players. IMHO
This game has been out for six (7?) years. Wacky fixed this in a couple of minutes. But hey we now have a COD market system on Rondo! These friggin devs...
The game has been out for more than 7 years and during its entire runtime, ARs were chosen over SMGs. Hard to understand why this is a "problem" outside of people just wanting a stale meta.
Shorter barreled weapons, such as SMGs should lose accuracy over distance. This means that a shot that is lined up perfectly should still have a chance of missing the further away that it is.
If you could also have 1 pistol as a base gun that you just pick before the start, and you have to reload before you can shoot, now pistols would actually be used.
another issue is that even if u had it balanced liek that looking just at e.g. the best SMGs vs best ARs where the best SMGs are better close range but fall of faster than right now, loadouts still impact the performance of a weapon. If u play an SMG, u need to have a secondary weapon that works on closer ranges than DMRs do right now, as they can perfectly take off when u aren't capable of spraying with an AR, but they would have to do the job 20-50m earlier, when AR loadouts are perfectly fine with mid range sprays. With that there is also the problem of mismatched ammo. technically, the VSS already does what i described above. and it has the same ammo as all the best world spawn SMGs but this gun is really hard to learn and unique to play whilst it already is easier to control than any AR and kills quicker than the AUG in most close quarter situations, so u dont even really need an SMG. Which is also why it was so popular among EMT gear/drone etc. players back when the utility items were still taking a weapon slot, as the VSS can be used at any relevant range. (u dont need to do 500m kills or 300m car spraydowns, these targets are no threats to u, but it feels nice to kill them) With the current weapons, pickung up an M16/mutant would probably be a decent choice (or maybe fast tapping an Mk12 or sth can be a supplement, but all these options come with downsides, at least, mismatched ammo. which then effectively reduces how much utility u have space for, as ur ammo will take up more space. with 9mm + 5.56 loadaouts that might be managable, but it still is a problem, as well as finding ammo from players for ur SMG, which also means u have to pick up more from the start and have 1 or 2 nades less. All these (and more) combined, SMGs have to outperform ARs in close quarters by a lot, which, right now, they dont even do in a lot of cases. they might be a bit easier to control, but the only SMG that can really stand up in ETTKs, the vector, isnt that much easier to control than an AUG. ppl are complaining bc these guns already feel like an insta kill, but so does any gun if u hit all the first shots, no matter if its an airdrop gun, a DP28 or a tommy gun. all of these can kill u in about the human reaction time, especially if there are 1 or 2 headshots. edit: and yes, movement and ADS speed do a little bit of mitigation to that, but if we really want more viable loadouts and see SMGs in pro play, they need a lot more help
"js9 doesn't translate into longer kills that easily"... I run a 4x on it, full auto, and kill people at like +50m consistently. I've also died to this a few times. its good at close and medium range.
How to re-balance SMGs in 2 words: Fall off. Make damage fall off more severe, making SMGs actually good close and terrible past 50m. Remove the limb multiplier because that just doesn't make sense.
I really like when games don´t have too much of a meta in weapons, so that your personal skill and preferences come into play more. Like in racing games not everyone likes the same cars. A lot of people like AWD cars, but I prefer the oversteery RWD cars, because they match my driving style. Also, like I pick my cars depending on the track, I like to pick my weapon layout depending on the situation and the map. In a situation with a lot of open field, I might pick an M24 and a Beryl, but in an urban area, I´d pick an Vector and a M16 and I also change my strategy. And I do this because in my head SMG are close range weapons. But this weird leg shooting thing makes it awful, in my opinion. If you are fighting someone and his legs are behind cover, suddenly the the weapon that should be more suitable for close range is not good again.
yeah i would absolutely love it if pubg was that way, where it might be decent to have an allrounder loadout, but if possiblee to reliably find differnet guns, attachments and their ammo to swap out depending on where the zone shifts. idk how many ppl have a similar taste and would enjoy that, but i love it when ur ability to adapt and play in many different ways is more important, than just raw mechanical skill, but others might feel the other way round.
You...don't have to shoot their legs. You can shoot their head with an smg and do more damage than shooting their legs. It's just more efficient when they're in the open cause it's a larger target but there's nothing saying you have to shoot their legs with an smg, it just ups your ttk by like .1 second compared to spraying into a lvl 3 vest But like a similar argument could be made about a shotgun. It's made for super close range instakill but as soon as they're partially behind cover your bullets will spread and hit the cover even if you aim right at them. Goes from great to poop. But I mean you'd set up fights differently with a shotgun just like you'd prob set up fights differently with an smg and not treat it as a mini rifle. Although I think ultimately one of the reasons it's hard to pick weapons for the situation is because the game covers such a wide range of engagements and you can't really know what range you'll be forced into due to the zone shifting. Which is why the meta is a long range gun, and typically a rifle because it can do all ranges effectively.
@@myclamish 0.1 when talking about ETTKs of ~0.25 is still a 40% increase. that is massive. imagine decreasing an AR's dmg by 40% even 0.01 is a small but still significant difference. what u said about shotguns is absolkutely true. the problem with smgs is, that the way good people play around shotguns (often involving vehicles and approachign ppl in open field or picking it up in a building when defending) is much easier than playing around an smg and trying to find situations where ppl cant exclusively cover their legs, which is kinda the same for a shotgun, but at certain ranges u reach breakpoints where only 5-6/9 pallets need to hit pretty much anywhere on the upper body for a kill, e.g. up to 7m on lv 2 gear shotguns(besides S12k) will do 23.4 on the head and 15.4 upper chest. if only 1/6 pallets hits the head, 5 hit upper chest and 3 miss entirely, thats a 100 to 0. if the target isnt at 100 HP or shots hit a bit different (neck/shoulder, 2 head etc.) u only need 5 pallets. but a 2nd DBS hit including bullet travel time will come in within 0.186 seconds at 7 meters. not even the P90 or vector could do that even if every 2nd shot is a headshot or if u hit every shot in the upper arm.
I guess the devs decided to model the SMGs and pistols to use Expanding Bullets (Like soft-point en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft-point_bullet or hollow point en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-point_bullet). This type of ammunition is used by law-enforment because it expands on entry, which results in more stopping power against unarmored targets, even in the limbs. Additionally, bullet velocity is low, which increases the chance of the round remaining stuck in the target, in turn resulting in more stopping power. Against someone using body armor though, you are in fact better off aiming for the legs since a hollow-point can't penetrate ceramic or even kevlar. I agree with your approach for making SMGs more viable from a gaming and enjoyment perspective, but maybe there is a different approach. SMGs are mostly used in scenarios where mobility is key. I think buffing SMGs by increasing the players mobility if they are the primary weapon, e.g faster opening of doors, faster movement speed, faster exit of cars, faster or more vaulting etc. is a viable option. You could even add the dreaded COD-style slide. Suppressors also work better on SMG's, so the effect of them could be further increased. Rifle ammo is generally larger and heavier than SMG ammo, so further increasing it's weight could indirectly buff SMG's. The final idea, which I don't think will be implemented because it would remove too much fun, is assigning different weight classes to weapons, and limiting the combinations a player can pick up. So: LMG's : Heavy Weapons AR, SR, DMR's: Medium Weapons SMGs, (non-auto) Shotguns: Light weapons The idea is: A Heavy-weapon can't take any secondary weapons (only sidearms), and medium weapons can only be paired with light weapons However: If the player has a lvl3 backpack, then two medium weapons, or a heavy-weapon and a light weapon are also possible. This would make the age-old AR & SR/DMR combination a lot more special/late-game, and if players want to play a marksman game from the get-go, they will have to go for an SMG or Shotgun as the secondary
They should get a damage increase, have really fast ADS, you should be accurate while walking, reload way faster, everything an AR should not be. When you have an AR in CQC you should feel slow, heavy and weird. Right now we are talking about miliseconds difference, thats barely noticeble. In CQC a pistol should feel better than an AR. This way you'd have a reason to carry a pistol, not just for when you are in a car unloading through the windows LOL.
This is why i like the Vector, Mp9 and JS9. These guns bring SMGs to the meta. Your way should be the way to go so all, or most SMGs could be meta. The way that SMGs shoot is mechanically different than that of ARs and that is why they are easier and new player friendly. They should excel to ARs in some occasions.
wacky pienso que el motivo por el cual las armas de 9mm tienen bonus de daño´´,es por que las balas son mas gruesas,hacen gran daño al cuerpo en general pero les es mas dificil penetrar armaduras!
While I agree the SMGs damage should fall off faster at range based on the current way SMGs work, they really need other benefits over rifles. Like even after making the suggested adjustments they're basically on par with a rifle with slightly lower recoil (which probably doesn't matter that much when you're within 50m) ... except they're super less versatile than a rifle when it comes to all the different engagement distances you may run into. And I don't think there are many other benefits other than lighter ammo maybe. Tbh I think some of this maybe kind of just feeds back into the preconceived notion that rifles should mostly be the way to play the game. Like I don't think SMGs should *just* be considered the newb friendly gun that you use before you learn to use a rifle. If anything there should be newb friendly rifles (like the SCAR) and newb friendly SMGs as well as SMGs that take a lot of skill but can be used to devastating effect if used correctly. IMO it would be better to focus more on the style of engagements that the gun type is best suited for instead of just time to kill and how controllable a gun is. Like if you consider a rifle, the idea is that you kind of need a solid platform to use them best. As in they're not necessarily for running and gunning, you're incentivized to stop, crouch, and unload. Where as I think SMGs should really be there to fill the gap where you should really be able to use them effectively while darting around. Maybe incorporate something like the ability to move at full speed while ADS'd or something and have less sway and also not have a recoil penalty for firing while running (which maybe is already how you can view smgs as they have lower recoil while standing than rifles.) Like wouldn't it just be great if there was a split between SMGs and rifles, like how there is a split between people who use SRs and DMRs for long range. And in those cases both are effective, nobody says one is better to carry than the other, or complains about being killed by the other (beyond specific scenarios you find yourself in.) I know it's not a perfect comparison due to rifles effective range being more than an SMG typically...but the idea is there.
@MetalRob81 not sure I'd consider them newb friendly. Like yes I think they have very low recoil for rifles, but if you think about it the scar it's basically an m4 that shoots slower hence even less perceived recoil which is why I said it was more newb friendly. And I knew someone that sucked with recoil that still couldn't control the m4 past like 25m...
I am so tired to play on Rondo, which is such a bad empty map. The worst big map added to the game. I stoped playing because of almost every game on Rondo.
The funny thing about smgs, in real life they have far more recoil than assault rifles. So why would anyone use them? If you are raiding a building smgs are preferable because they have shorter barrels AND their bullets are larger. A 5.56 bullet is between 55 to 79 grain bullets. A .45 has a typical weight of 253 grain bullets but they also have lighter powder loads and snubbed ammo. What does this mean? In real life smgs have greater recoil as mentioned above mostly because of the design of of the guns. The heavier bullet is not designed to penetrate body armor due to its shape and cartridge load. The bigger bullets are pretty devastating up close to unarmored adversaries. I'm not too opposed to limb damage beig higher than an ARs as a result but SMGs should be harder to control and their damage should drop off prett quick. Outside of 50 meters they shouldn't be very good. Frankly i think we need 4 weapon slots one that you can only put smgs in so if the fighting goes urban you've got a weapon for it.
I remember how a weapons update killed the game for me and my group. It's sad it happened and it's annoying learning all the weapons for them to be changed.
Comrade WackyJacky, you have been drafted. Report to your nearest conscription office where you will receive orders to work as a military strategist to break down the Ukrainian defense
Now that we´re talking about gun balance can we please skip back a little to your AUG vs Beryl comparison. Your data has shown that tha AUG using 5.56 ammo is more effective against lvl 3 body armour than the Beryl using 7.62 ammo. HOW does that make sense!? Especially with the Beryl still feeling harder to control than the AUG?!
Unfortunately I don't think much of that. If you look at it soberly, the Mp9 (only on Deston) is hardly played anymore. The next weapon that suddenly draws attention to the MPs is the JS9, which can only be played on Rondo. The changes mentioned would continue to affect all Mp's and thus actually the changes from the other Mp's such as e.g. the ump mean. Then we would have another type of weapon like shotguns that hardly anyone plays anymore. The Mp's are really good in close combat, but you can usually forget about them on moving distance targets . The problem is that the really good players like you Wacky can use almost any weapon like a laser but usually can no longer share the same opinion as normal players. The idea of revising the MPs certainly makes sense, but I think the risk of nerving them to death is currently too great compared to how dangerous they are. Just my opinion from my experience in my squads games. Nevertheless, kudos again for your dmg schemata. I can't imagine how much work that must have cost
You are basically suggesting to make SMGs another AR. There is no point in that. Limb damage modifier makes sense because of less penetration of vest and helmet. You do not need to make SMGs kill faster at longer distances, that's nonsense. Most importantly your TTK spreadsheet in no way takes more recoil of AR (more scope bouncing, more screen bouncing) into account. Instead: 1) increase scope breathing for SMGs 2) remove all glued attachments from P90 and make it's shots lowder as it fires supersonic bullets 3) remove glued attachments from MP9 4) reduce starting speed from 400 to 330. 5) increase damn recoil for MP9 and JS9 because there is no reason they should perform so much better than Vector. Even fully kitted Vector has more than 1,5x than both full MP9 and full JS9. 6) increase loudness of JS9 because it's silent as fuck even without silencer. 7) decrease hipfire accuracy since shorter weapon geometrically cannot be fired as accurately as long weapon without aiming BAM. DONE. No need to dumb down the game! No need to modify the damage! Do not suggest "easy" simple solutions which water down the game! New players need 10x more than laser weapon! Krafton does basically nothing for new players except ruining core gameplay.
He isn't suggesting to make SMGs another AR. He's effectively suggesting to remove SMGs from the game. YOUR suggestion basically turns SMGs into AR's - you've removed everything iconic about them that makes them effective at short ranges.
@@far2ez "you've removed everything iconic about them that makes them effective at short ranges." You do not understand the game. Nothing from what I suggested affects short range damage.
Hm, i think is good for now, SMG is for beginers and for me some guns still have high recoil. When u remove limb dmg and increase recoil for (JS9) SMG new players don't have a chance. Personaly i would remove recoil and who is more precise he is winner. I know some gamers feel bad when someone kill them with SMG and they have Beryl but hey everyone can choose SMG or other weapon.
Why are you complaining about SMGs? It's good that the game offers a choice between types of weapons and everyone plays with what they like! Some players don't pick up SMGs at all, and some don't like ARs. Why do you need to change something to the detriment of some players and to the benefit of others? For some reason, I have not heard anyone complain about too much power in the AR compared to the SMG. So let's reduce the strength in AR, maybe everyone's chances of winning will become more equal? This game is already difficult, no need to make it more difficult with your advice. Leave this nonsense about smg, nothing needs to be changed!
I don't care about milliseconds. I'm still too far behind. Skill based rankings. And I mean you could literally see the performance of recoil recovery. The way a player moves the mouse could also help detect cheaters. There are observable metrics and that would make a real skill based ranking. Let pros play with pros and cheaters with cheaters, and leave the casual players alone.
I like the idea. But tinkered like this, nobody would use an SMG. You wouldn't "excell" with smgs at any point. If you wanted to actually make them great at cqc then they should actually kill FASTER if you get close and not still lag behind ARs.
it wouldn't be balanced. no one would ever use SMG's AR's would be the only pick. And please show me the pro player that uses SMG's? but if you look you'll find they only use AR's. with DMR's All you did was take away from SMG's and provide Zero reason to ever use them again. Even in close range AR's still kill faster and in Close quarters you do not need to worry about recoil. Even more reason to use AR's in close quarters. just say what you really want. you want them to take SMG's out of the game, because you don't like playing with them.
I'd rather they removed ARs tbh, the meta has been AR +SR/DMR since pubg came out, apart from brief periods right after an update that turns some SMG/SG op.
@@dewaldR8934ARs are a jack of all trades, making SMGs and shotguns pointless unless they get OP enough in close quarters to make it worth bringing along a gun that becomes useless at any distance over 50m. With only two weapons to choose from, if one of them ain't an AR, the other has to be a DMR. That said, I've had some great fun in pubg using a kar98/shotgun combo, but it's not exactly the most effective way to play...
@@bryanespinoza2966My highschool Spanish lessons were 20+ years ago, but from what I can interpret you seem to be saying that I'm bad at the game if I can't control the ump, because it's a water pistol? 😄
hey wacky, i would be interested in you answering at all since almost all pubg "pros" are actually hacking, you are apparently not hacking. but how is it possible that you always play against bot-like player in your videos? that is clearly not random or ranked, i have over 10k hours and know what both look and feel like. your videos aint that. your opponents are on bot level most of the time. you farm absolute beginners all the time. how ?
HOW bout you start expanding the coommunity!!!! start making videos that would bring more people to the game!!!!! All you do is preach to the old guys playing fromm 2017 and nothing to get new people io
