How to respond to “we don’t have free will”? 

@BOB VILLIAS THROBBING THRILL HAMMER Christian: we have freewill "Freethinker": we don't have freewill

@@Jack-op8bb LOL of course. Having examples of not-x always shows that everything is a not-x. That's definitely valid.

@@Jack-op8bb you're asking me to exert my freewill change my mind about freewill? I'll try my best! If I have freewill then I'll let you know that I discovered that I don't have freewill.

@@Jack-op8bb LOL sure. This is no way the conflation of synchronic involuntarism (lack of instantaneous freewill) and diachronic involuntarism (lack of freewill over circumstances over time). And in no way a hasty generalization (some no freewill therefore all no freewill). I am not sure how well trained you are in philosophy of action but these fallacies are literally things you'd avoid via philosophy of free causation 101 stuff. The libertarian doesn't say all things are freewill nor does he say you have to be able to freewill everything instantaneously. That would be a straw man that is easily knocked down. The libertarian merely states the modest claim there are genuine freewill in many circumstances even if not all. If there is any inconsistency I discovered it'll be the irony and humour of determinists pleading libertarians to freely convert by diachronically examining themselves.

Yucheng Zhang however, I have met a whole lot of people in which I have shared what is considered new information. However, despite having heard it, she said she chose not to believe it even if it is factually proven information. Lemme ask you this: If somebody says rape is good, would you agree on that?

HOAX

So was believing it

They didn't even go to the moon. No one has.

Why believe it's a hoax I've seem evidence for both sides which is true then? Only one truth and that is in the bible.

Lol. The moon isn't even a khusical object.

Skipper “bruh!” Lol I can’t escape the meme

🤣🤣🤣🤣

exactly 😂

Admin wilin

Right! Lol

That sentence makes no sense

@@theespionageact5249 -- People who claim that there is no free will always act as if they have free will. Better?

@@enonknives5449 how could you possibly act as if you have no free will?

@@theespionageact5249 -- You can't. It would be impossible. But people who don't believe in free will still insist that other people should behave well toward them. Why would they be upset by other people's actions if those people have no free will? Why would people who believe that there is no free will try to CONVINCE others that they don't have free will? It makes no sense.

@@enonknives5449 i think you dont understand the complexities of the free will argument.

Amen!

John Steel why do you think that?

John Steel I’m going to be honest, I’m not completely knowing of the differences between catholic and Protestant, however if you could give me a better insight that would be great.

John Steel oh I see, thank you for your explanation- how is this backed up?

@John SteelPeace be with you. Is it right to have a pope? Was Peter the first one? God bless

Exactly

Nah. People elaborate, and you either understand or you dont.

My bad I still confuse this hoping to get out praying lord helps me

They don’t want to believe in God and they are searching for explanations =(((

@@patrickshadow6598 yea..hm

Yes it is all crazy

Society needs lies in order to be stable.

@@andyisdead Yeah, I guess you're right. Gotta fool people into providing you with that Wi-Fi.

You don’t have free will. You act accordingly to your wants. If you have to choose between chocolate and vanilla ice cream, I’m sure you think you have free will to choose right? Wrong, you’ll choose the one you WANT. If you willingly choose the other JUST to prove the point that you have free will and could choose the other, you still WANTED to choose the other more to prove the point. Everything you do is either through force or wants. That’s it...

Argument from consequence fallacy

@Zealot Zealot Ahh Come on. How many kids even get that far? Most don't think about it at all. There's hope for him.

Yes you should because unless your willing to face consequences

The reason why have laws that punish people for soing undesirable things is to promote desirable behaviors and reduce those that are undesirable. Its totally possible to have our current justice system while still beleiving in determinism.

@AgentX7k2 How? Can you elaborate?

I'm choosing to leave this comment , but God knew that I would. A man’s heart plans his way, but the Lord determines his steps. Proverbs 16:9 HCSB

Exactly Eka Galla.. that's my point as well

🤣🤣🤣🤣

The most popular definition of free will, is the idea that you are the ultimate cause of your actions and that you could have done other than the choice you made in the situation that you were in. You can’t be the ultimate cause of your action if you believe in causality and you certainly can’t be the ultimate cause of your actions if a god created the universe because it created the universe which eventually caused you to exist. The ability to do other wise in a situation? What does that even mean? Let’s say you chose to throw away your trash in the bin. If we reminded it and played it back again, you’d still do the same thing. How and why would you have done otherwise? There’s only two possible ways that you could do other wise in a situation, you went back in time and changed your decision or there exist an alternate reality where you made the alternate decision. Making a decision when there are options is much like previewing a group or videos in your recommended before you eventually choose a video. You look at the previews and choose the video you think you’ll enjoy the most, then you choose it. Likewise, when you choose something, you predict and simulate which option will be the most beneficial to you and then you choose it. Could you have done otherwise? Why would you have done other wise. You were only choosing the outcome you thought would be the best, so why you choose a seemingly less beneficial outcome? Once you have experienced the outcome of that choice for example choosing a video and finding out you didn’t like it, you will try to move on to a better decision by choosing the next best thing in your recommended. The future is unpredictable because when your brain is calculating the best decision, there are unknown variables left out of your equation which can sometimes negatively effect you. For example, you choose to go outside, but a sniper from 1,000 meters away, shot you in the head. Had you known there was a sniper, you would’ve not gone outside or if you did, you would take extra steps to ensure safety. But because the sniper was left out of your equation, the choice led to a bad outcome. The future is scary!

This works both ways - for pride and shame. Without free will ego is an illusion. Ego is the root of all evil and great suffering. In letting go of ego you give yourself to a higher power. Some would call it god.

@@eazyrat New age is from Satan. It sounds good but it gets you nowhere. Put down The Power of Now and pick up the Bible.

@@choosejesus1910 It sounds good because it makes so much sense. The bible does not unfortunately.

eazyrat why so? How did you come to that conclusion my friend?

@@danyaelpecson557 Without lumping all new-age practices together - as there is a _lot_ of crap - specifically regarding enlightenment and attachment to ego - there is nothing factually or scientifically incorrect, and there is no request to believe anything with bad evidence on faith. The bible asks to believe lots of things that aren't provable. Miracles, the afterlife, Gods intentions etc.

And yet according to an omniscient God you were destined to leave this comment since the day you were born. Did you plan on leaving RU-vid comments in the womb?

Kitty Kats make choices all day too A computer makes choices too

We can do what we want, but we cannot choose our desires. Have you ever done/chosen something that you didnt want in that moment (except for accidents)? Actually no. Even if it felt undesirable, the reason you did it was, because for some reason you still wanted to do it. You can only do what you want. And you cannot choose your desires. Could you make yourself desire to become the next hitler?

That’s not a good analogy. Computers were programmed to behave a certain way.

If God knows everything he also knows what you will be doing. That means that what you will be doing is predetermined by God knowing the outcome and that negates all free will.

Right..

Have you heard of Charles Whitman?

Wrong. You have accumulated massive amount of knowlege and information in your concience and unconscious memory which then dictates how you see the world and to which conclusions and actions your brain makes and takes. If you were raised in a Middle East country in a local family your worldview would be totally different and you would likely be a Muslim. You simply don't seem want to accept the effect of chance and the environmental effects which is a human thing but that means that you are ignorant in this sense and blatantly wrong.

​@@patienbear If free will doesn't exist it's not possible to know whether something is right or wrong.

Clinical studies have proven free won't. Look up Dr. Michael Egnor.

Probably on the cross examined website. If I find it I'll let you know.

@@FunesLegend Hey! How's the search going? A, Jaben and me are starting to lose hope. Well, A and Me are here for just a half year, but think about Jaben... He's here for a full year. We hope you are alright Daniel. Godbless 🙏

@@eligijusvaitkus1520 😂

@@eligijusvaitkus1520 😔😅😂,...👐

One can say they do not have free will and say that they did not have a choice in saying that. It's not self evident

Woo woo

@@tedidk8639 *how* were they able to respond to the question of whether they have free- will or not unless they have the free- will to do so.

@@StephenAFT Simple, he didn't have a choice

Incorrect. If one denies truth they are making a truth claim which is logically incoherent. If one denies free will they aren’t making a Libertarian claim. You can deny free will without asserting that free will exists since denial doesn’t have to be a free choice.

The illusion of free will is also responsibility.

@@Eddieshred Any illusion = It does not matter, Free will = Responsibility, Responsibility = Accountability, Denial Of Responsibility = Big Surprise Judgement (reconciled accounts which were thought an illusion), Inevitably that choice (free will) to ignore the truth (Jesus Christ) becomes a one way ticket to a place called hell in the scriptures for those who think the Living God is an illusion. Time to wake up. What more could God have done??? He died for us, don't stand on your own BUT avail yourself of the FREE gift Jesus Christ gives us SALVATION....Praise God! He washes us from all out sins if we believe/trust in Him, get to know Him, He is awesome!

​@@cto511987 In a world where there is no free will people can still be held accountable for their actions. The religious position is actually impossible to defend whichever position you take on free will.

@@Eddieshred Wrong, the atheist position is a fairy tail for adults. The Living God is the only logical position based on the creation which declares the glory of God. For those who deny the obvious there will be a reckoning.

@@cto511987 I'll just let you live in your ignorant geocentric, flat-earth, over-simplified theistic worldview, in which all magically created humans have a nonsensical free will.

Arminius was a reformer. He didn't side with Pelagius.

@@ravissary79 Arminius had his own mini reformation but he wasn't apart of the actual reformation he was about 90 years too late. Arminius did believe in total depravity where Pelagius did not, so you're correct.

@@reformedcatholic457 I'm not saying he was an original reformer, but he was a student of Calvin and was firmly in the reformed camp. In his own writings he doesn't reject the bulk of reformed teaching but actually recommends it. The 5 remonstranses were after his time, from his followers, because they're arrived at these key points that couldn't be reconciled readily after talking about the different perspectives for a generation. Classical Arminianism uses a lot of the same definitions as Calvinism because it's based on Calvinism. It's an internal debate within the reformed tradition. Efforts to make it sound Palagian, or pagan or foreign, are just efforts to poison the well, and are a cynical effort to shut down opposition with name calling. The history of how these ideas came about precludes such tactics from being truthful.

@@ravissary79 nevertheless, the 5 points of Arminianism are contradictory to Calvin's tradition. It is also semi-Pelagian because it gives credit to man and his "free will" to meet with God in salvation. Arminianism is a synergistic system where the creature cooperates with God in salvation, whereas Calvinism traditions give all the credit to God for electing and drawing people unto salvation

@@ravissary79 he did when he affirms man's ability to cooperate with God for salvation. It's in the 5 points of Arminianism where man and God both cooperate for salvation. Man is partially depraved and must therefore work toward sanctification, election is conditioned upon man's cooperation with God, the atonement is possible for all but only effective insofar as man wills it, God wants to save every man but can't change hearts unless man gives permission and man can lose his salvation if he does not do his part. Arminianism is centered on the creature and what he must do to attain race with God, that is Pelagian

It's false to assume that determinism means lack of expression. All it means is that every decision you've made in your life reached one outcome, and then another decision, an outcome, etc.. The option you never choose is simply a thought in your head and never happened. If you watched a replay of your whole life you could make a list of everything you did, and at no point would the things you COULD have done matter, because you didn't do them. Free will does not exist because you can't undo the decisions you've made in the past, be it 5 seconds or 5 years ago.

CosmicSkeptic did a great video on the argument against free will. Your statement of "I do what I want" as an argument for free will is flawed because we don't choose the things that we want. Every decision ever made is made either because we want to, or are forced to, but we can't chose what we want. For example; I don't want to go to work, but I want to have the money to buy food, and pay rent etc. more than I want to not go to work. If I can't control what I want, yet I can only do what I want, then that is basically saying that yes, you can do whatever, as long as it is a predetermined thing, but that is not truly free will.

If you have more questions about my argument, watch CosmicSkeptic's video

@@michaeldavis9807 you just proved his point lol.

@@basechung same goes for determinism as you can't change what happened 5 mins ago and hence can't be held accountable...

so “free will” is a “concept” that “has” been “debated” about for a “long” time and “people” have “many” different “views” about “it”. and i “don’t” understand your “use” of “quotations” and why you used so “many”.

No, something caused him to hold that beleif, like a convincing argument.

@@Kaymen1980 was he free to choose to believe he has no free will after he heard the argument?

@@maafa21MustSee Obviously not. The argument convinced him, therfore he did not have a choice.

@@Kaymen1980- That is a play on words, a "convincing argument" simply means an argument you believe to be true. So if you are *convinced* by argument that means you chose to believe that argument rather than the others. You can still refuse to believe that argument even if it in fact is the truth.

If a god exists there is no freewill . His omniscience would mean that what will happen has already been determined. We can’t change what he already knows or he wouldn’t be omniscient. That’s the paradox of an omniscient omnipotent god .

Admitting we don't have freedom would destroy his faith, so he'll deny forever

@Legendary Force yep, apologists for atheism

@@samkinison2375 how is one an apologist for atheism

Being against free will does not justify ones action. Even Sam Harris states this in his book. Having punishments for breaking rules and laws still make sense because punishments are outside factors that could effects ones action, even with no free will.

@Beren c no one has demonstrated their god claim to be believable. I dont accept any god claims as truth. Seems Pretty simple to me

@Beren c obviously. Im not talking about someone else being convinced. Im not them.

Rationality rules debunked it

no rationality in determinism dawg@@konyvnyelv.

🙏amen Isn't the Lord so kind and humble to allow us the freedom to choose? So awsome is our heavenly Father

He didnt respond properly to the problem. He just basically said that he didnt agree with not having free will because the idea made him uncomfortable.

@@James-yi1vk in your dreams buddy

@@James-yi1vk Here's the problem, atheists like you are basically uncomfortable with having free will, but in the end your free will will follow you to Hell.

@@James-yi1vk Talk to my hand buddy

Clever

You can believe anything you want to but believing does not make it true.

Nice

However, here it means that I have a choice ​@@GSpotter63

Isn't that the logical conclusion of determinism?

Jesus gives authority before crucifixion Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. By all power of the enemy he means sin too God has commanded us to overthrow sin from the very beginning. Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. So saying that it's in our nature to sin is calling God our tempter which is just not true. James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man Sinful desire does not come from our bodies, but all desire to sin comes from spiritual influence. Ephesians 6:12, KJV: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Zurick Jefferson So Christ gave them authority to tread on serpents and scorpions. The context of this passage is talking about the 72 returning after they’d been away and had cast out demons. It doesn’t say anything about sin. You’re reading that in to the text. I’d also ask do they now have the power to cast out demons or is the source of that ability from God? God tells us we must rule over sin. He tells us through the whole bible that we mustn’t sin. Have you never sinned? Just because God tells us to rule over sin doesn’t mean by nature we aren’t sinful? It’s a completely irrelevant point. God is definitely not our tempter. I don’t quite see how saying we are sinful by nature leads to God being our tempter. Could you please elaborate. To say sinful desires do not come from the body/flesh, but only from satan or spiritual influences is a huge error. To say that all sin and temptation comes from the flesh is wrong, but to say it only comes from spiritual or demonic influence is also wrong. Both are true, we are sinful by nature and there is also a spiritual influence. You’ll have to erase a huge chunk of the biblical text to make the point that it only comes from spiritual influence. “among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.” ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.” ‭‭Genesis‬ ‭8:21‬ ‭ESV‬ “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” ‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭17:9‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.” ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:6‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:18‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” ‭‭Psalm‬ ‭51:5‬ ‭ESV‬ I could keep going if you wish. The bible is crystal clear on this. We are children of wrath, sinful by nature and from birth. Our hearts are wicked and deceitful. I will state my original point, we are enslaved by sin. Our will is not completely free. If it was how come no one, not one person (apart from Christ) has been able to live a sinless life?

Consider this, say you start a business. You have the choice in hiring a theif or a trusted individual. Which one are you going to pick? Better yet, let's just say that you have these two individuals come in for an interview separately. So, you decided to play this game where you have them wait in the lobby before the start of the interview. You have one of your employees come in and "accidentally " drop a hundred dollar bill on the ground as they are passing. The first candidate picks it up and shoves it in their pocket. While looking around quietly to see if anyone noticed. Second candidate comes in for their interview, same thing happens. However instead of doing what the first candidate did. This second candidate makes sure to give the money back to the passerby person. Both individuals have free will to make the right decision. Furthermore, only one candidate makes the right decision. We are not always given an easy path, but we always have free will to choose. No matter what that path looks like.

@@niwreyentihw1496 with all due respect modern daisy, I find myself in the exact same predicament I first mentioned even with your explanation. In other words, if I had free will then I should be able to choose to neither put it in my pocket or give it to my employer. But just like Gods salvation and plan, I do not have that choice, regardless, there are 2 outcomes. I personally don’t have a problem with that, I’m a believer, however to call it free will for me needs a bit more of an explanation. Ie. I am free to choose whatever I want but with limitations and forced outcomes to those choices which I don’t really choose? If that makes sense.?

@@stronghold6315 Are you referring to spending eternity with God or spending eternity without God as a case against free will? Yes, there are only two final destinations, but you freely choose which one you want. Spend eternity with God or without God.... it’s logically impossible to create a 3rd option. Perhaps just non-existence, but that is the exact same as an eternity without God. You have the free-will to choose, but it is logically impossible to arrive at a final destination that does not end up in either “with God” or “without God” Unless you can create a logical destination that does not fall within one of those two categories? I hope you can find a clear answer to this problem that troubles you👍

I dont think we have a decisive free will. If you read the book of Jonah you will understand that Gods will in our lives is sovereign. Texts in the Bible that support this; So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Romans 9:16 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13 But on taking leave of them he said, “I will return to you if God wills,” and he set sail from Ephesus. Acts 18:21 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”- yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” James 4:13‭-‬15 In 1 Corinthians 11:27‭-‬32 you can read that a child of God can misuse grace, but only to a point. This also touches the subject of predestination, that God is in full control as stated for example in Romans 9:20-24.

You are not free. You can only do what you want and you cant choose your desires. Have you ever consciously done something that you didnt want to do in that moment? Never. It might have felt undesirable in that moment but there was still some reason for why you wanted to make that choice. Also can you then choose these desires that dictate you? Could you choose to become the next hitler? Could you choose to stop believing in God and hate all christians and burn your bible? No.

You want to be held accountable for your actions because you dont want to believe that your life is meaningless and finite. Thats why you believe in free will. There are consequences for poor actions, because it feels like we chose them and most people dont question that. Also society needs to believe in free will to exist. That doesnt mean that free will actually exists.

No I stopped believing in free will from the Christian point of view. I mean if I knew I was going to be tortured for all of eternity because of the choices I made in my finite life, then that influences my choices. "Free Will" comes from outside influences, which is why I have a hard time believing it exists, especially when it comes to hell.

I agree with this. However Christians look at free well as something outside themselves, like a soul. Atheists see it as just them, they are their own person just making decisions. Personally I think the way Christians use free will is laughable. We know that all decision making happens in the brain, do a lobotomy on some one and you can change that persons personality and decision making process.

Exactly

Really late reply but it's because of the potential to change. We have the potential and capacity to change and become righteous, therefore we are held accountable whether we are born in sin or choose to sin, because we can still change either way

@@MichaelCHamel then he isn’t omniscient you don’t have potential to change lmao. The code I created doesn’t have potential to change it will always have one output.

You are making your choices based on a consequence. I know I am basing my concerns on the semantics of the words. You choose not to rob the bank because you know it is wrong and if you get caught you will go to jail. You are free to make choices, but you are not free from the consequences. This is my main concern with the terminology. I believe there should be consequences. I am not free to use my will whatever way I want to.

@@susangraham1203 A'right!! Let me rephrase my statement then.... Since im broke, My brain says to rob a bank......but.....since i know robbing a bank is Wrong and if got caught, it has a consequence and a Jail time...., I Choose not to. Free Will!! 🙂🙂🙂

@@blakemarb5617 I wasn't trying to make you mad. I was just offering a different opinion which is what comment sections are about. All I am is saying is that you are making your decisions based on a certain outcome. If you want to call this free will, then so be it. I look at free will as being able to be free of consequences. If you offer me an apple or an orange and I choose (through my free will) the orange I am not being punished for not choosing the apple. Like I said it is the semantics of the word itself. I am not saying we can't make choices, of course we can. EDIT: the dictionary definition of the word "free" is to act or do as one wishes without charge.

@@blakemarb5617 Why are you acting as though you and your brain are different entities? You are your brain... I'm sure you would like money but you already understand robbery was never an option. If you really think you can defy your brain chemistry, try stubbing your toe and not feeling pain. Or getting drunk and walking in a straight line

@@susangraham1203 No no no!! Honestly, im not mad at all. Infact, i never had or have any intentions to be so. Trust me, really!! To be honest, Im quite not sure which part of my lines made you to think so. Anyways! Now, im sure you too would agree with me that there were many bank robberies in the past and even now we do hear about banks being robbed every now and then....So, dont you think that those bank robbers did and do know that its wrong and they also knew and know about the consequences they would face if caught too?? They did and they do!! Yet they chose and choose to rob those banks anyway. They had and have free will to choose to rob a bank or not to rob a bank regardless of the consequences and outcome. Also, I think you got the whole concept of free will all wrong..... because free will doesnt mean free of consequences. Free will means to make a choice freely...Same way as you chose an Orange instead of an Apple.....As for the defination of the word 'free', i think i find no issue there.

K V I’m sorry but both you and the detective do not understand this concept

I am open to hearing how my understanding of free will differs from yours.

Zynn Findo why so? Do expound please

How is one a intelligent fool? Stephen hawking was a smart guy just a atheist

@@5xq283 "only fools say there is no God."somewhere in the bible- Thats why he said fool.

@@furios2203 Fools are those who....believe in the " invisible "....

Ateo forever what if you were born and your mom died and you dont know how your mom looked. Does that mean that you never had a mom?

Furios oh I forgot about that one

The absence of free will does not mean the absence of cause and effect. So no, it doesn't mean that criminals aren't guilty. Spiritual Christian junk food like this video here has led you down a path where you only think of free will in the way they want you to see it.

@@basechung I was forced to see it that way. Not my fault

God loves you so much more than you think

God loves us so much more than you think

@@alfzepo9976 that’s parroted nonsense. Read the Bible. It will change your mind.

@@Tennethums1 I do read the Bible, God redeemed His creation which rebelled against Him for His glory and because He loved them

@@alfzepo9976 I’m assuming by “redeemed” you mean Jesus’ sacrifice?

Agreed... it's an argument that without freewill you can't be factually correct about anything... with zero explanation about why that statement is true. It's an assertion without evidence and can be dismissed until evidence is provided.

Timothy Bushell yes. The term is incredibly ill-defined and I don’t understand why they are putting it forward as such a core tenant of Christianity It seems to me that they are unwittingly taking-on an idea of free will espoused by Jean Paul Sartre’s idea of autonomy (being the law-maker). This is an idea that is very different to the bible’s description of human freedom, which is always held in parallel (not tension) with God’s complete control.

@@iknowyourerightbut4986 Yeah... the definition problem is laid bare when the speaker uses the word "freely" as in "freely read [the Harris book]". I find this sort of thing dishonest; and the debate is clearly an echo chamber of agreeable men where there is no serious challenge. It's a shame so many people on this thread find the argument to be solid. I've not read Sartre but it seems to me that autonomy is not affected just because/if - as biological agents - we don't truly have freewill. Whether our actions are truly free willed or not, doesn't necessarily make us an agent of some other thing. We still own those actions. Having no free will requires an adjustment of what we mean by autonomy. As for human freedom not being in tension with God's complete control... I'm not sure I understand why it's not a tension; or how it can be parrellel. It's a contradiction is what it is. You're either free or you're not. If there is another agent then autonomy is truly compromised. That's why I think the atheist position on free will - either way - is on more solid ground. If you are an atheist and you believe in free will, that's consistent. If you are an atheist and you don't believe in free will, that's consistent. It's only theists who have a problem with free will.

Timothy Bushell I think we are in agreement that the problem is in the looseness of terminology being used (although, I am a Christian, so I think we are coming from different places there). That was certainly the argument that Sartre put forward regarding autonomy but notice the distinct characterisation that he puts on free will; that mankind is the ‘law-maker’- not God. A good way to think about these things that is to consider the nature of human agency. My problem with the term ‘free will’ is that it clumps all types of agencies together without nuance. People can have political agency (they can choose to vote), they can have economic agency (they can choose how to spend their money). This is different to having moral agency (being able to choose what is good). The theologian Jonathan Edwards puts it like this (paraphrase): you always do what you want to. We are bound, in this regard, to our desires. This is not to say that you always have the option of choosing exactly what you want but, rather, given the choices in front of you, you always choose what you most want. Regarding a naturalistic framework, personally, I don’t see how you avoid some form of determinism. If I believed that my mind was the product of mindless forces; a mind constructed not for understanding truth but for survival I would be very skeptical of my own ability to know anything meaningful- let alone make choices.

Whether or not they are able to think for themselves doesnt make them any less of a threat to society

Sure they can they’re a threat to society

Well there's an option to suicide if you're feeling so forced. Just kidding I mean how the heck you know what is free will if you're not here silly how can you feel you're being forced to exist without existing. How can you even choose without the power of free will. How can you be forced to have free will when you don't even have the free will to even question "Am I forced to have free will" in the beginning how the heck you even feel forced against your "free will" if you're forced to have free will.

But how do you know we act like it, then?

Pharoah have freewill or did God harden his heart? See where you're wrong.

@@RevGary Did pharaoh have a choice when he killed the hebrew children? See where your wrong? QM destroys determinism...

@@Tzimiskes3506 obviously Pharaoh DID have a choice or they wouldn't have died. I'm right about this and you're wrong. QM????

If you claim there is no free will then you have no business fighting for "women's right to CHOOSE." checkmate atheists/femiNazis 😂

@Betsy Ross The concept of free will is not actually about being given the right to have choices. We all know that there is a choice between eating a donut or not eating the donut. Free will as it is being defined is about whether or not the factors that go into choices are factors that are under our control. Part of what makes you who you are among countless factors, is your 1st grade teacher. Did you choose that teacher?

@@WhtetstoneFlunky FALSE

@Betsy Ross Stating "FALSE" in all caps is an insufficient explanation.

@@WhtetstoneFlunky Wrong. Stating FALSE is completely sufficient.

@Zeke Bean then why don't we know this concept if it's true? And even if we know, why is there guilt? We shouldn't have any guilt right?

@Zeke Bean what I meant by know is to know by nature that I don't have free will. I don't need anyone to tell me that I can't fly or teleport. So, why do I need anyone to tell me that I can't choose everything else bcos I don't have free will? Well then ultimately it will lead into this question, would it be immoral if I don't have any feeling of guilt after I've done something really bad to other people?

Translation.. I don't like the idea of not having free will, therefore we have free will...

J Ovesen if that's what you want. : )

J Ovesen no it would be a fact that life is meaningless if everything that happens is not controlled by you

@@nabil706 No one says we don't have "will", because we obviously do.. It's the idea of Libertarian free will that is being challenged.

@@arglesmith Facts doesn't care about what I want.

Disagree

@@theespionageact5249 Why?

@Zeke Bean I was thinking the exact same thing. We must have the same neurons firing exactly the same :-). Think its fare to say that if you studied medicine or law, you are referred to as a doctor or a lawyer even if you go into politics or sport coaching. So why if you studied philosophy, you somehow not a "philosopher"

Think its fare to say that if you studied medicine or law, you are referred to as a doctor or a lawyer even if you go into politics or sport coaching. So why if you have a degree in philosophy from Stanford like Sam Harris, you somehow not a "philosopher"?!

There is no wisdom in atheism. A philosopher atheist is like a blind person trying to guide other's across a minefield.

Francisco No. In general we’re not fans of Calvinism

@@ThomB50 Yes, that was my assumption, i personally hold to the theological position of the reformed understanding of predestination and election, but i still consider my Armenian friends as my brothers in the Lord .God Bless

Calvinist contradict what they say on the issue of predestination. The don’t understand what the word fornew means.

@@defendingthefaith.7889 foreknew?

Honestly, I see no contradiction between freewill and Calvinism.

Jack Zhang yes, Just because God knows the outcome doesn’t mean you don’t have free will to choose

@@chadashe8304 If he knows the outcome then it didn't matter what you COULD have chosen. You made one decision, not the other. The fact that your future decisions can be known in the present invalidates the ability to choose differently. And if you do choose differently, you'll find that you were always going to make that decision to begin with.

@@basechung is knowing something an action? Is knowing something forceful? No. All-knowing pertains to one being. Yes God knows the outcome but that doesn’t mean he controls you. God loves you so much he gave all of us free will just like you have the free will to right that comment and I have the free will to debate you on this. If we didn’t have free will we would be robots and that would be pointless. God gave you free will he just knows what your will(choice) is.

@@chadashe8304 umm yeah if you act on that knowledge. If I know what a code is going g to do and then I crate that code that code can’t change there is going to be one output. Same with god is god knows what the human he crates is going to do there is one output no matter what the human does. If there is a being that knows everything but doesn’t actively create anything than free will can exist but you know that isn’t a thing in your worldview.

@True Colors You got that right

Lol 😆

No we dont.

@Zeke Bean well there is generic free will (choice between which resturant to go to), which there is no debate, and unique free will (self determinism pertaining to Salvation), which there is. I hate it when people answer as if someone somewhere doesn't believe in choices. Even if we are pretty destined, we have generic free will... Anyways Calvinists believe God chooses us and then we seem to choose him, while Traditionalists believe God gives us the free will to choose him like we can choose a restuarant, I personally lean %51 Calvinist on that issue because I put God on a bit of a pedestal But, it's like the debating the difference between 6 and half a dozen and it's probably supposed to be mysterious anyways

The earth is flat

Michael Ramos So is your IQ.

The guy in the thumbnail was popularized as essentially the meme for humorously expressing confusion towards something. I don’t know what the actual origin of the image is, but it is most well known as that.