As another longtime pumpkin fan and collector of anything that can get me closer to that tone, I have a trick you can do with the Phase 100 to make it sound even more pumpkin like. Put the phaser thru the return/send of your marshall. It let's the phase float right on top of the fuzz. You might already be doing that but just in case you haven't tried that it's worth a shot. Gives the tone a very mellon collie feel
the live sound of pumpkins with the orange amps was insane in that era. too bad I cant find specs or info about the pedals (a few) used live or marshall jmp1 settings.
i don’t understand how you can get so much distortion and still actually be able to tell what notes you’re hitting. that’s always been my problem with recording heavy songs and adding a second or third guitar on makes it even more muddy
Hands down the BEST video I’ve seen for this subject AND best video I’ve seen by an account under 500 subs. If you keep up content like this I would not be surprised if you became a regular stop for gear info for myself
This has a lot of comments, so I’m sure this is already been said. If you have the Siamese dream tablature book in the forward Billy breaks down his entire rig and what pedals he uses and what AMP uses and settings. It is actually from a guitar world magazine interview he did shortly after Siamese dream came out. A lot of people were fascinated by the wall of fuzz. I have been chasing that sound since 1995. You have done very well. There used to be a girl on here name fuzz box girl. She had a couple of old big muffs with the op amp mod and her tone was damn close. Unfortunately she deleted her channel and took down all her videos. I have no idea why.
Absolutely. That is where I learned the settings for my amp back in the mid 90's. The amp in this video is the modern 20 watt reissue of that amp mentioned in the tab book/article (2203 JCM 800 w/KT88's). That article has a few good tidbits but doesn't dive super deep. It handles the rhythm sound decently but only gives a little info on the leads. I made a second video after this one that dissects the lead guitar sound beyond what is in the tab book or interviews ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-KCegzAXgpEA.html Thanks for watching!
Interesting, when I heard Siamese Dream for the first time I assumed it was a crazy number of layered guitars, this is the closest I've heard to the Smashing Pumpkins sound for sure,well done!
been curious about that Siamese Dream era tone for years. I knew bits and pieces of it, such as the JCM 800 head with KT88's, master cranked with the preamp controlling the gain structure, Distortion+ into an op amp Muff, and so on. I got the Lace Sensors and the op amp muff, but couldn't quite wrap my head around the rest of the equation. I decided to build a pedalboard recently and learned about IRs. I've been using older modelers for years, as I just mess around in my room by myself, and had no idea how far the tech had come... IRs have opened a whole new world for me. knowing that it's possible to get there with gear I can actually afford (or save up for over the years) is a very happy surprise. I presumed it would be out of reach or infeasible, given all the expensive gear, rack stuff, super involved production techniques, and so on. this has pretty much all the missing pieces of the puzzle -- or at least, all the major ones I couldn't figure out! I'll have to take a stab at modeling some of the aspects with modern software / tools in conjunction with my pedals while I save up for other bits and pieces. simply incredible.I'm really excited to keep exploring, and that's a godsend as this pandemic drags on and I keep wrestling with other things that bring me down. thank you so much for sharing this.
I discovered SP in 1996 and it instantly became one of my most loved bands, i still love them, though i dont listen as much as i used to. Great video and thanks!
I'm one of the people who hit the dislike button. I don't like people who wear hats inside. It's rude and just straight up inappropriate. There are probably kids who are gonna watch this video and they are gonna see this guy wearing a tuque inside like it's the end of the world or something. It's such a terrible example to set. For shame to this man and anyone else who liked this video, including yourself, buck-o!
Eddie Clark most definitely liked it. I'm not familiar at all with pedals and amp knowledge, so watching you explain what they do was great. Would love to see one of machine ii if you ever decide to :) This one kicked ass btw :D
Really love this channel and these vids. I've been a pumpkins fan for 20+ years and started playing guitar 3 months ago. Would love if you did more pumpkins covers or even lesson type vids.
Thank you 🙏 I filmed this one a while ago and was off on a few pieces. Most specifically; how important the MuTron Bu-Phase was. Still very much appreciated. On a side note… …. user name checks out. 🤣
Amazing video dude, you've really nailed the tones which is a real achievement since you've managed to translate the sound from a studio recording sound into a pedalboard. I've just checked out the eventide pedal and safe to say I might have to wait until I think of getting one since Ive already bought two new pedals this month 🤪
amazing work! you got super close to the tone. If you do a match eq of the stems with izotope ozone though, you can get that tone 100% by replicating the whole signal chain. i did it and it is sooo fun to play.
I’ve seen someone use a half-cocked wah before the overdrive and muff and nailed the lead tone. Add in a phaser with the rate all the way down and depth all the way up and you’ll get the Cherub Rock lead sound.
I could see that working really well. I use a Microsynth, phaser and Jordan buzz tone to get that sound. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-TDSZsjFkjTg.html
@@EddieClark nice, i just checked that out, yeah I think yours is dead on for Cherub Rock. You even managed to get that broken speaker sort of sound you hear in the last second or two of the song, always loved that.
Hey Eddie you think you would tackle some Mellon collie covers and would you do F*** You and ode to no one ? The solo in that track sounds so sporadic and awesome like corgan did it in a take on the whim. Would love to hear you play it your corgan solo tributes are the best.
If I remember right Billy has said he was in the room with his amp cranked all the way so he had to play that solo tight to keep it from exploding w feedback
Probably using some oddball, killer octave fuzz from the 60s/70s, that was sitting around that multimillion dollar studio of Billy's. I have a v4, and v5 opamp Muff and there is an "octaveness" in the muff naturally, so you really need to hunt down a v4 v5 or v6 to go along with that magical , and mysterious octave pedal he REALLY used. I honestly dont think the studioboard had as much to do with it.
😁 the octave effect is a Microsynth The Lead Guitar Sounds of Siamese Dream (The Smashing Pumpkins) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-KCegzAXgpEA.html Here it is in use ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-QY0a63439bw.html
I just set up a custom MKII Pro electric kit, and I haven't played drums since 2006,3 months and I'm playing Gish and Siamese Dream, which I've never played before ,i have to start making videos,
This guy Billy Corgans. KT88s in a Marshall? Check. Red Lace Sensors? Check. These are all those little details I remember as a teenager from the Siamese Dream tab book, lol. The only gear I went for in the 90s to be Pumpkins-y was 'a Big Muff' - which Big Muff, though? (This was before the internet was much help, remember!) I got the Sovtek Green Russian, and, well, at the time I thought it was great, but it's quite a different beast from the OpAmp. But even after getting the OpAmp reissue, I still go back to my ol' Greenie for nostalgia's sake (and it has surprisingly better clarity for individual notes!)
That sounds familiar to me! My first muff was a green sovtek as well. Couldn't figure out why it didn't sound right 🤣 That said; they're still my favourite muffs outside of Pumpkins tones. Thanks for watching 👍
itd be sweet if you showed how to get these tones in amplitube exclusively. i can get relatively close using my marshall and big muff, but i am just getting into amps and pedals, and unfortunately cant go buy the microsynth and harmonizer... been chasing the siamese dream tone on amplitube forever now with no avail
Very cool. Check out the Pumpkin Pi by Stomp Under Foot, I bought one the other day instead of the op amp muff. I use it with a TS9 and the tone is identical
FYI, another great way to tame/kill that noise on the cheap is to add a second (Cheap-o Amazon tuner behind all the gain pedals) I was chasing this tune a few years back w/ a Digitech Bad Monkey boosting an Op amp reissue into an old 80's Marshall LEAD 15 solid state mini stack (gain low/master high). Honestly sounded pretty awesome mic'd up! I no longer have that mini Marshall tho. : ( Damn... Now I'm all melancholy😐🤨🙃
Great sound!! Love the intro! Just wondering if you have played around much bypassing the amp completely and trying to achieve the same using amp sims? Softube do a range of Marshall’s including a 2203 with KT88’s. Be interesting to hear what you get.
How did you determine amp settings? I just picked up a Marshall 4x12 JCM800 lead 1960a cab with original vented white label G12T-75’s and as soon as I plugged in lace sensor strat into my JMP 2204 with the master cranked and low gain through my 1978 op amp big muff, that was IT. So awesome. It’s really important to emphasize the early white label G12T-75’s. Even the later UK models were vastly different, not to mention the Chinese 75’s. Surprisingly, Creambacks sounded way closer to the vintage white labels than actual newer G12T-75’s. Finally, as difficult as it is to justify, the sound of a 4x12 is crucial. Even close miking a single singer. The cab just resonates differently.
Billy shows his JCM 800 setting a few times in interviews. I think the first place he mentions it is in the Siamese Dream tab book. I use the original vented white G12T-75s as well as a G12-65 (the predecessor to the 75) loaded 4x12. Vintage speakers are almost always better. If your JMP has EL34’s, try out KT88s. Tubes don’t really sound too different but the added headroom with the master on 10 makes a difference. Thanks for watching!
Make sure the treble is at 0 or 1. I never run more than that. Also to consider, the JMP’s are often a little brighter than the JCM versions. I’ve had multiple of both and I usually end up with a bright cap delete in the JMP amps.
Eddie Clark Shout-out, this is one of the most useful videos I've seen on this type of subject. The gear is out of my price range but I appreciate how you don't just talk shop but show us rubes out there how all this gear achieves that sound. I'm looking to buy a Fender. I've always played nylon classical guitars and know zip about electric guitars. Any advice on what strats to stay away from?
How different would it sound if I were using a stock SC20C without any mods? Great vid btw, absolutely the closest and most informative video I've seen on this topic!
I really enjoyed this video and would love to know how you went about making the custom SC20. I’ve been wanting to do the same and the way you did it looks great!
Thanks! Glad you liked it! My local amp tech made the tube change for me. The 12" enclosure is the Mojotone 18 watt combo with a 7.5" back panel to accommodate the extra amp chassis depth.
To my ears the rhythm guitars sounded like it was miced up too far away? I don't know the album sounds a lot more direct without much room sound. But awesome either way sounds great. Edit: Nevermind you addressed it, seems my ears a bit better than I thought
Im sure you figured this out by now, but the Jordan Boss Tone is the most likely culprit for the lead "secret" fuzz that you're substituting the Tumnus for. :)
This is so awesome! Would you ever make another video about the tone since you seemed to have perfected it even further in your newer videos. Also do you have Ig or something? I have so many questions 😄
@@EddieClark Yeah, I'm definitely eager to see more. I have a marshall dsl40c, the closest I've gotten is the op amp ri, phase 90, boss super overdrive, and lastly a TC electronic mimiq which makes a huge difference in my opinion. I'd love to find an octave pedal to nail the leads but I wanna try and get as close as possible and stacking an octave fuzz along with op amp bug muff i feel like is too much, idk tho. From my own research I though he just stacked the big muff with the dist.ii but when you mentioned stacking fuzz I was surprised. You seem to know a lot more than me tho 😄
@@EddieClark If you make another video it would be much appreciated to go more in depth with the pedals and their settings and stuff. I'm not too familiar with the deco but remember seeing another video where they used it for a dub. Idk much about it, it looks like a very complicated pedal to use lol Also, I'm very curious how the microsynth fits into the rig, is that how he did octaves? I find the octaves to be the hardest part because they always sound like an organ and stacking with the fuzz always makes it sound a but strange if it isn't an actual octave fuzz pedal. Any ideas? I'd love to see that encorporated into the final rig rundown lol
Hey man, great stuff here. Curious on your thoughts between the SC20 and the full 100watt JCM800. In your experience does the SC20 match the original in terms of that big muff into low gain channel sound?
I grew up with a 1983 JCM 800 2203. I loved it. The SC20 is 99% of the way there. Being able to run the master on 10 is a huge part of the sound with that amp. It needs to be wide open. Doing that with my 100 watt growing up is why I have tinnitus. I can do this with the 20 watt version and not go deaf. The 100 watt version may produce a little more low end but not in a way that anyone will notice in a mix or live situation. Hope that helps and thanks for watching! TLDR - yes the 20 watt version can match the sound.
What sort of difference does the kt88 mod make? I've been considering getting my JCM800 2203 modded, but I'd imagine is costs a bit to do so. And curious where you heard he used G12T-75s for Siamese Dream! I know he endorsed them, but I've been trying to find an interview or something where they say that's what he used (I believe you by the way). You do a great job! Keep killing it.
Thanks! The KT88's don't sound different until the master volume is on 10. They just stay cleaner. I found it to be less important on the SC20 that I use for these videos than it was on my old 2203. It benefited far more. The G12T-75 is the standard speaker in the cab Billy played through for SD. When you try subbing out Greenbacks and Vintage 30's, the recordings no longer sound right. I've experimented with other speakers just to see what happens and "that sound" is no longer there. Thanks for watching!
@@EddieClark How much a difference do you think there is between the G12T-75 vs G12M-70? I have an old 1960A Lead, and it has such a harsh "pokey" high end. I have to turn my presence and treble completely off my JCM800 to not have it be ear-piecing for cleans. Bad enough that a gig from this weekend made be itch to find a replacement.
@@raynefaded The G12M-70 is one of the most hated Celestions of all time. I don't think that's a deserved title but it's definitely not a speaker for SD sounds. They're very different speakers. The G12M-70 is a great speaker for going after early Nirvana tones while the G12T-75 is the SD sound. The newer ones don't really sound quite the same as the old ones though. I run my amps with the treble on 0 or 1 for Siamese Dream tones with the G12T-75 and I only play the 800 type amps with the master on 10 (when using the low input, 7 if I'm using the high gain input). I find they're too peaky if the power section isn't cranked up as well. Hope that helps.
@@EddieClark Ah you're right! I just watched a video by Johan Segeborn and they don't sound similar at all... I'm really craving a vintage set of 4, but they're not super easy to source (at least here in Canada). Might struggle and wait to find an old set, rather than bite the bullet not and just get new ones...
I think the speaker should be greenbacks, because when Billy sold some of his gear on reverb.com a few years ago one of the mellon collie 4x12 cabs was only 100w...if it was t-75's then the cab would be 300w...also on rig rundown Billy said the cabs were always blowing speakers, way more likely to blow a greenback 25w vs a t-75 75w...lastly, on the rig rundown Billy said he always uses the classic celestion, which would most likely be the greenback seeing how ACDC & EVH used it, the t-75 didnt get popular until later hair metal and metallica, etc www.spfc.org/band/equipment.html?equipment_id=236
I can appreciate why you might think that but the SD cabs were the standard 75 watt models. Perhaps MCIS and beyond are Greenbacks.The greenbacks just sound nothing like Siamese Dream when recorded. If you check my Mayonaise Cover, it's done using the UA OX Pumpkins preset which uses greenback IR's (Greenbacks are a common misconception) and it is the furthest of all my covers from the correct sound. By a huge amount. Greenbacks are great speakers though and I love them. They just weren't on Siamese Dream.
Amazing walkthrough of the Siamese tones. I have a fender Strat with all single coil pickups. I love the neck pickup for warm clean tones, but am considering switching out the middle and bridge pickups for something else. What do you recommend for Siamese tones?
Just try a red lace sensor in the bridge and leave the middle for now. The Silver in the middle of the SD era Strat is just a copy of a far Strat pickup which is almost decked/level to the pickguard. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for watching! The amp and pedals settings on screen from 1:10 are acurate and the Amplitube mic position on the cab is at 3:45. In Amplitube, I'm using the standard Marshall 4x12 with the emulation of an AKG C414
Sorry. Soma - that's a setting on the Eventide H9 called "resonator". Billy used the "band filter delay" setting on the H3000 but the H9 only has the "band delay". I found the resonator setting gets closer on the H9. I also had a chorus effect on.
Thanks for watching! Siamese Dream fuzz is always over a clean channel. The low input of a JCM800 is very clean which Billy set just before there was any detectable grit.
Hi mate, love your work. Thanks for the info, especially for the dist2 - I've been looking for a mxr dist ii clone for a while and this looks perfect. Thanks again. I'm also interested in the eventide harmonisor effect for soma intro. Which harmonisor are you using and what settings? Thanks.
Thank you! I'm using an Eventide H9 so it will fit on a pedal board. The module in the H9 is called "Resonator". It allows you to set 4 steps of ascending (or descending) pitch filtered delay notes. In stereo mode, it does a left/right ping-pong that sounds amazing.
