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How to Upgrade Your Cheap Laser Engraver Machine - Ortur Laser Master 2 

The Edge of Tech
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5 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 133   
@wburke1759
@wburke1759 3 года назад
Just ordered the ortur master 2 and all the upgrades last night because of this video. Thanks Jim for convincing me to take the plunge. I’ll be watching the video again once I have everything in my possession. 👍🏻
@mercedesjenkins9658
@mercedesjenkins9658 3 года назад
Thank you for your upgrades! You sold me. Just bought and am patiently waiting. I do have access to free use of a Glowforge via a special program at one of my local libraries. It’s fantastic, but who wants to pack up and carry all they need to a tiny work space. Don’t get me wrong I’m thankful but will be elatedly overjoyed once my laser arrives. Thank you!!
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Glad I could help! I hope you love it!
@tim6360
@tim6360 3 года назад
Love this video Jim, especially for those who have the older versions. I think any new units (at least 20w versions) come with a fixed lens and z-adjust already (for those interested in buying units today). The top-mount adjust on the model you show is nice though. Also, by needing to adjust the limit switch location, you do minimally reduce your working area. This won't matter for 95% of burns though. FWIW, the z-adjust on the updated fixed-lens units does conflict with most air assist printable components so be ready to design/search for the correct air assist. Air assist is a HUGE upgrade on these by the way (for any looking to buy). It really increased the effective 'power' of the laser (same output, just more efficient engraving/burns). The feet are very useful too! Also FYI: someone probably figured it out already, but new, fixed lens units cannot upgrade (easily) to the G8. Wait till you get your unit to buy a g8 so you know if you are getting mixed lens or not. Don't be like me and get both at the same time then have am extra lens sitting beside your unit 🤪
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Great points!! Thanks for the feedback and advice!
@cosmicraysshotsintothelight
@cosmicraysshotsintothelight 3 года назад
My 20W had some issues. I had to add a pair of holes between the two lowest pairs on the plate (factory plate). Also, when it is that low, the Z plate hits the X axis motor coupler when transitioned left. I used card stock between the Z plate-to-laser mount and again on the factory plate mount face to the main gantry carriage. That added 70 mils or so which has the unit missing the motor coupler by a couple millimeters. Another thing to watch out for are the two motor power wires feeding the Z axis motor. They rub on the bed plate! Way too close. Shipping tape or transformer tape over the wires stops any abrasion, but keep an eye on the tape for scuffs too after applying it. EDIT: After closer examination, I found that it is the two limit switch wires that were proximal to the bed edge, not the motor cabling.
@isisisisisis5678
@isisisisisis5678 3 года назад
Hello from Russia! I liked your videos about the laser very much !!! Dude, you're cool! Thanks for the quality content! It is interesting to see how you make the air supply!
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Hey, thanks! And thanks for watching!
@3DJapan
@3DJapan 3 года назад
I have the 20 watt model that already slides up and down but I love the precision I'm seeing with this nut to turn on top.
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
If you have a new one it comes with a fixed focus adjustable laser head. You won't need the z axis mod as yours already moves!
@xSensu
@xSensu 3 года назад
@@TheEdgeofTech Are you referring to the laser head that you can turn left or right to change focus or are you referring to the ability to move the whole laser on the z axes? I have a 20w and am not aware of being able to move the z axis up and down, just able to focus the laser by turning the head left or right.
@donferron5352
@donferron5352 Год назад
Just an observation from recently assembling the Ortur enclosure for a Master 2 S2 LU2-4 SF model. IF you have your laser in an enclosure, or thinking about it, the belt tensioner will not fit. I opted for an enclosure because my unit is in my wood shop on one end and son's welding and such on the other. That makes for a lot of contaminants.
@fplrangers4005
@fplrangers4005 3 года назад
Great video. I 3D printed a spacer block that goes under my laser shield/air assist to set my laser height to the perfect focus every time.
@merrillalbury8214
@merrillalbury8214 2 года назад
Wish I had seen this long ago as I developed a similar z axis adjustment for my LM-2. All parts except on her nut and screw are 3d printed.
@jayc2469
@jayc2469 3 года назад
Plus the length of the plexi strip is the focal length of the laser module ;)
@jands1968
@jands1968 3 года назад
Print a 79mm slug to help focus your lens. This way you can place the slug on the material, drop the lens onto the slug, then it should be focused. No more ruler.
@angeloaa
@angeloaa 3 года назад
The belt tensioner link that you reference is for an Ender 3 and is different than the ones you installed.
@marlonst.lawrence6721
@marlonst.lawrence6721 2 года назад
Watched this video to prepare for installation. 1st issue: The Z-axis adjust; the laser mounting plate which fastens it to the gantry using 4 crown nuts had incompatible hole pattern. My gantry bolts form a rectangle, (lower and upper bolts are the same distance from each other,) on my LM2. In your video, your LM2 gantry bolts form a trapezoid; (the 2 lower bolts are closer to each other than the upper bolts.) So, I figure either maybe you are confusing LM2 with LM2 PRO, or maybe Ortur is making design changes on the fly, without communicating with those they should. Solution was to drill two new lower holes, using my old plate as a drill-guide.....works fine, so far as I know. 2nd issue: The belt tensioner on the Z-Axis adjust is a mirror image. Your video seems to be telling me to install it on the wrong end of the gantry. To install it on the end of the gantry I am instructed to on your video, would require me to cut off the flange on the adjuster housing, flip the flange over, and remount the housing on the other side of the flange; as far as I can tell. Please correct me if I'm wrong. 3rd issue: I did not receive any kind of clip to keep the lead-screw from travelling up or down. In other words, to keep the lead-screw stationary. Solution: I'm thinking of grinding off the threads residing in the little slot on the top of the Z-Adjust and installing some kind of clip. These issues are what I am perceiving. I'm not condemning, I just want to know how to get my system up to par. Looking forward to answers/solutions.
@merrillalbury8214
@merrillalbury8214 2 года назад
Had an endoscope included with my design. Like minds.
@davidmajersky1969
@davidmajersky1969 3 года назад
Awesome I've been looking for that Z adjuster just what I was looking for thanks :)
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Glad I could help!! Thanks for watching!
@mercedesjenkins9658
@mercedesjenkins9658 3 года назад
It’s probably listed below, but which company did you purchase your pre-upgraded model?
@kmecheckj
@kmecheckj 3 месяца назад
Any better upgrades since then? I'm curious if its just better to grab something new and more capable or could this still be relevant in my hobby shop?
@merrillalbury8214
@merrillalbury8214 3 года назад
I have one now, I printed, that has an air assist, z adjust, and a lock. It is a mod to the air assist designed by Brian @3D Print Creator.
@edwinkania5286
@edwinkania5286 3 года назад
Got the shakes..................................Good video The Z-height would be the laser adjustment vertically, do you mean the X end stop?
@zk_6312
@zk_6312 Год назад
I don't have this laser, but the upgrades look good. I wish the Ginmitsu Jinsoku LC-40 had such a belt tensioner mod. You should add the Maker based MKS DLC32 offline controller. It looks really interesting, kind of like a 3d printer with a display and the ability to move the laser and run gcode from the controller without a laptop. Unfortunately there is not much if any documentation on how to install it though I have seen several videos of it successfully added to a laser engraver. They did not post how they did it though.
@girrrrrrr2
@girrrrrrr2 3 года назад
I've been looking at one of these. I'll have to see what other videos you made on it.
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Awesome! Thanks for watching!
@acecrowncat1439
@acecrowncat1439 8 месяцев назад
Looks good man. Thank you for this video
@artespop1
@artespop1 3 года назад
As soon you mention the word community I hit the subscribe bottom
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Thanks! My whole goal is to help the community with these videos! Thanks for watching!
@DavidALovingMPF102
@DavidALovingMPF102 3 года назад
You covered everything here! You did legal stuff as well! Very good, very professional! I think you can quit your boring day job and keep making videos! I have the LM2 20 w and am trying lasergrbl first. I THINK I am ready for a test burn..What type of file should I import to lasergrbl and what laser settings should I start with? I did see a one page suggestion for speed, power, material from Ortur. Follow that?
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Thanks David! I would definitely do a material test as your first burn!
@tim6360
@tim6360 3 года назад
I do have a question (as I am a novice with engraving): What is the purpose of a belt tensioner/how often is it utilized? Do the belts significantly lose tension over time? I am a big fan of useful upgrades (like the z-axis which would be used for EVERY new job), but I am curious how often I would be adjusting belts. Thanks in advance!
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Great questions! You normally would use the belt tensioners in the setup, but it's always good to check your tension after every few prints. If they are lose they cause banding etc. It really makes it easier as you don't have to loosen the bolts and pull them by hand. Thanks for watching and great questions!
@tim6360
@tim6360 3 года назад
@@TheEdgeofTech Makes sense on checking and, yeah, those devices would absolutely make things easier!
@mikemcguckian6968
@mikemcguckian6968 Год назад
Thanks for the video upgrade Jim. I have my lm2 installed inside a wooden box and am wondering what the dimensions of the belt tensioners are. Itd be a pity to have to build a new box if they don't fit in !!
@villeneuvewoodworks
@villeneuvewoodworks 9 месяцев назад
Can Ortur 2 hook directly to a tablet? Really don’t want to bring my laptop into the shop. Thanks
@stevehuntley6228
@stevehuntley6228 3 года назад
Looks like the Origional poster of the Belt tensioner has remixed it. It will no longer work as well with the Ortur
@meekasteve7699
@meekasteve7699 3 года назад
G'day Jim, just wondering if you have done a follow up on the air assist for the laser. Cheers Steve.
@j4nch
@j4nch 2 года назад
Can we print those at home? Im okay to buy them, but like this no delivery fees and I can reprint them if they break or improve them
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 2 года назад
Maybe! Reach out to them and ask! :)
@marqmoore2887
@marqmoore2887 3 года назад
His voice cool as hell like a radio host... I wanna pass him the 420... he seems like he tells good stories 😂😂😂
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
HAHAHA Thanks for watching!
@marqmoore2887
@marqmoore2887 3 года назад
@@TheEdgeofTech Thank you for posting! I'm making money from your videos as we speak! 🙏💯
@marqmoore2887
@marqmoore2887 3 года назад
@@TheEdgeofTech Burning a photo of my friends mom as a memorial piece
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
@@marqmoore2887 Nice!!
@otallono
@otallono 3 года назад
@@marqmoore2887 I used to do pyrography by hand doing these on basswood slices, I realized I could buy one of these and get it done way faster and no labor lol 30 min to an hour vs. several hours by hand skipping meals
@inspirethefeargaming5989
@inspirethefeargaming5989 3 года назад
Great video. I bought this laser engraver myself and I was wondering if you can do a video on how to get a 41x40cm grid like an array to burn
@sandybanker3213
@sandybanker3213 2 года назад
can you show how to connect the ORTUR laser master pro to the XTool Ra2 Rotary?
@Velereonics
@Velereonics Год назад
So the machine says it's a 20w max or something, what would happen if I put a 40w laser head on it? Can I simply power it directly instead of through the machine? Could I use some kind of converter to convert the power from 20 to 40 on between the machine and the laser head?
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech Год назад
I think you could, but I have not done it.
@SwervingLemon
@SwervingLemon 2 года назад
I know it's been over a year since this was posted, but I just doubled my Laser Master 2 bed size for about thirty bucks in parts. if you want, I'll post a video on it.
@WrightWorld
@WrightWorld 3 года назад
There is a potential downside to installing the retainer feet. It will make it a major PITA to lift and replace the machine to use it on objects larger than the work area. In theory, the unit could be lifted straight off the retainer feet. But if they're snug enough to prevent any lateral movement from vibrations (and they should) then the machine will need to be lifted absolutely straight up or set straight down against a fair bit of resistance. Not a problem if all you intend to do is engrave coasters, tiles, or small canvasses. but worth considering if you plan on burning larger or longer items.
@buckvan619
@buckvan619 3 года назад
You should check out the lego feet
@f.mestrum4362
@f.mestrum4362 2 года назад
My cable set of the Ortur laser master 2 is broken because the cables are all quite short. Where could I buy a new one?
@merrillalbury8214
@merrillalbury8214 2 года назад
Darn. I have an adjustment plate with a built in air assist for fixed lens
@howdydoody30204b
@howdydoody30204b Год назад
Thanks for the video. I know that it is older, but so is my machine. How has this adjuster worked for you? Has it been stable with no wobble, etc.? Has it lasted? I have taller feet on my laser (20mm of lift) and need to get the focus down lower.
@Yoshi-Toranaga
@Yoshi-Toranaga Год назад
Hello Jim, I always watch your videos and from your experience I would like you to guide me in buying a new laser module for my old ortur master 2. I want to engrave metal, I have seen neje A40640 and Neje E40. Which of these would you recommend? If you have another preference tell me. my budget is usd 350 to 400. I'll wait for your answer, thank you so much. ...Cheers from Chile SA
@lloydphillips9724
@lloydphillips9724 3 года назад
Why wasn't the screw long enough to have a T on top to eleminate the Allan wrench.
@jujucattys156
@jujucattys156 2 года назад
u no any upgrades to 3d print that fit/work on the VEVOR 30x40
@paulgentry5006
@paulgentry5006 3 года назад
Where can you buy I don't have a 3d printer and that seems to be what website sells.
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
At the top of the description is a link to their shop! They sell the printed products. :) www.etsy.com/shop/KingGubbyDesigns?coupon=ALOHOMORA
@sheriroch9905
@sheriroch9905 3 года назад
Can you help with the King Gubby Air Assist for the LM2 Pro?
@wingnut8598
@wingnut8598 3 года назад
What CNC do you recommend for starting out? I am currently looking at the Ortur. Thanks in advance and great channel you have so very helpful and you remind me of my nephew lol
@BAHATI1943
@BAHATI1943 Год назад
Gearbest link not working for me. Do you know where I can buy 20w laser to fit my Master 2 please.
@Doctaj54
@Doctaj54 4 месяца назад
Thanks!
@JonathanRansom
@JonathanRansom 3 года назад
Nice upgrades!
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Thanks for watching!
@thastev0
@thastev0 2 года назад
How do you feel the LM2 is holding up with current laser releases?
@nastyaj1866
@nastyaj1866 2 года назад
Thanks for your videos they are so helpful! Could you please tell if you know, how many hours can I use the same machine non stop ? I was using it for 3 projects non stop , I mean it stopped for a few minutes between them , total 2hours. And after that it’s starts to make sounds when I sent the machine home and kind of twitch when it’s going home. Have you ever had the same things? Thank you in advance!
@jabbarhajiyev3052
@jabbarhajiyev3052 2 года назад
I connected the device to the computer, but the computer does not see it, what should I do?
@terrmaso
@terrmaso 3 года назад
Have you added an air assist to the laser? If so, what type of air pump did you use? Thanks
@jimbarcliff385
@jimbarcliff385 3 года назад
Great video, thank you
@tammympearce
@tammympearce Год назад
I upgraded my master pro 2 to the 20W. I adjusted the stops, but I'm not sure what to change in lightburn for bed size. Any suggestions?
@mgroene
@mgroene 2 года назад
Are all of these upgrades for the Master 2 included on the Master 2 Pro? Or are some of them still missing on the Pro version?
@bennfarmslab
@bennfarmslab 3 года назад
i love it ... where can i order a z adjuster ???
@AmarAndroidHelp
@AmarAndroidHelp 3 года назад
Could I upgrade my Ortur Laser Master 2 laser module with the Atomstack A5 40w laser? I’m going to be upgrading soon but I don’t want to waste $180.
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
I'm not sure if that would work or not
@andrieskruger2784
@andrieskruger2784 3 года назад
Hi Jim, do you have a video on how to install a G8 lens?
@tganwash
@tganwash 2 года назад
I have the Nassum laser, will this work for this one as well?
@przfyneztrlcan
@przfyneztrlcan 2 года назад
my lm2 laser just died any suggestion on a replacement laser? or am i stuck purchasing an ortur laser
@noelcarriere5202
@noelcarriere5202 3 года назад
merci
@imagineengine
@imagineengine 3 года назад
I just subscribed to your channel. I would like to know more about the height adjuster kit but it appears to be in German. How am I supposed to figure that out?
@randyday3278
@randyday3278 3 года назад
How does a guy get the z bolt retaining clip file? Mine has the problem you described. The collar won't stay tight.
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
I would reach out to them on Etsy and ask them!
@randyday3278
@randyday3278 3 года назад
@@TheEdgeofTech I did and they sent me the file------thanks
@uscmhudson5504
@uscmhudson5504 3 года назад
With regards to the height adjustment and the spacer or moving the switch forward. In Lightburn would you need to adjust some setting since you are effectively shortening your Y bed size?
@wojwoj06
@wojwoj06 2 года назад
10:30 - is this step (re-locating the end-stop) impacting the size of the work area?
@danielnelson9686
@danielnelson9686 2 года назад
Just got ORTUR Laser Master 2 Pro-S2-SF, 24V Laser Engraver. Like the few things I done so far. Thinking as an upgrade it would be nice to do thicker cuts. I see Ortur has some laser options, but there are others that have higher powered lasers (saw one with 2 5w lasers that combine beam). Is there a place or have you tried using other 3rd party lasers on this system?
@rocketennid250
@rocketennid250 3 года назад
Hi Jim you seem to know a lot about the Ortur Master2 Laser I've watch your vids and am very in press in your delivery etc, I was wondering weather or not you can help with a problem I've encountered I'm a newbie when it comes to lasering and was just getting the hang of it. I've watched your vid on how to upgrade the Ortur which was very good and seem to be just what was needed However just a day or two after the upgrade I was engraving slate which would take about an hour to finish so I left my man cave and when I returned around 3/4 hour later I found that although the laser was still moving the fan and diode was not working. Now I don't know why? was it software related or had some broke can you throw some light on the matter. I have tried a reboot on pc and reset on laser but the fan and laser will not work but movement is OK
@blindman9997
@blindman9997 3 года назад
What's the little bracket with the nut on it for( in z axis picture)? Didn't see it used
@charleswreichenbach3275
@charleswreichenbach3275 Год назад
Does anyone do an upgrade that would allow you to increase the size of the objects you can engrave?
@johnshamp6110
@johnshamp6110 3 года назад
Where can I get all of these upgrades i have the ortur laser master 2 as well?
@noelcarriere5202
@noelcarriere5202 3 года назад
merci pour le cite pour commendez les upgrade es ce que il livre au canada
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
I am not sure if they deliver to Canada. I would reach out to their etsy page and ask them there!
@patriotsoftheunitedstates4173
@patriotsoftheunitedstates4173 3 года назад
look into focus-lock on your camera
@risbill1
@risbill1 3 года назад
Wondering if the z adjust will slip over time from vibration.
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
It shouldn't. But that would be a great test!
@risbill1
@risbill1 3 года назад
@@TheEdgeofTech it would. I'm sure you know how much it shakes when raster engraving small areas.
@buckvan619
@buckvan619 3 года назад
@@risbill1 it's basically a worm gear, much like a guitar tuner. It should not move unless it is moved. There no vibration should cause it to twist when there is friction on it. If you pull or push on the module it will not cause it to turn either.
@gothmaniow
@gothmaniow 3 года назад
hi jim would these upgrades work with the atomstack a5 ?? as its a similar laser ;) cheers !!
@marcyvanbeaulieu5109
@marcyvanbeaulieu5109 3 года назад
when i don't have the height adjustment kit, how high should i put the 7w laser block? thank you!
@hitch3888
@hitch3888 3 года назад
Do you know if the two trees totem s is a good laser engraver
@trentcecrle73
@trentcecrle73 2 года назад
I installed the z adjust plastic ware (purchased from KGD) and now my text has sawtooth type effect in the horizontal portions. Any suggestions?
@bigosnation
@bigosnation 3 года назад
Is it safer to buy from Gearbest or Aliexpress?
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Great question. To be honest I think it's a horse a piece. I am trying to source a better place. Amazon sells them, but they are much more expensive on there.
@bigosnation
@bigosnation 3 года назад
@@TheEdgeofTech I saw that too. I suppose what it comes down to is would spending an extra $100 be worth the faster shipping and knowledge that yes it is actually being shipped to you. While "yes" seems the clear answer, my wallet is being disagreeable. Thanks for all the great vids.
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
@@bigosnation I totally agree.. I'm torn about using Gearbest but it really does help with the prices.
@extemos6476
@extemos6476 2 года назад
Hi Jim hi Everyone, could someone help me? I just put my Ortur MP2 together and I type just a five letter name I usa a bit round font. The letters are up and down. I just burneda a line not fill on a piece of mdf board the letters are off, and the letter "o" looks like an egg shape and it doesn't even make a perfect circle I'm running the trial version of light burn. Thank you in advance
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 2 года назад
Hi, congratulations! Check your belt tension, it sounds like it's not correct. That would cause circles to not be circles etc. Make sure it's pretty tight but not super super tight. When you move the belt back and forth by the wheels, you should have maybe a half inch of play. But that's it.
@kickwriteteach2313
@kickwriteteach2313 3 года назад
can this cut plywood?
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
With air assist and several passes, people do have success cutting thin plywood! Check out the Ortur facebook page to see more!
@jimslasercreations2221
@jimslasercreations2221 3 года назад
Hey Jim 👋, for some reason I really like your name 😀 lol 😆 just found your channel about a few weeks ago and so far I'm loving them, I'm in the market for a laser printer and you've been very helpful, love your teaching techniques, so far ortur2 pro and atomstack are pro are the ones I have in my sights, pros and cons to both, I'm a beginner in this, never used one before so any suggestions would be gladly appreciated, keep up the great work and content,.
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Go with the Ortur Pro all day. A lot more safety features and also actual end stops.
@SasiKumar-mm5hc
@SasiKumar-mm5hc 3 года назад
hi, is it possible to maximize engraving area of ortur laser
@iniguezboni
@iniguezboni 3 года назад
how a can setting up the laser
@1hung2lomofo84
@1hung2lomofo84 3 года назад
that spacer was definitely a weak point in the design, i fixed that by using 2 nuts to fit that square area
@Kevin-tc3ob
@Kevin-tc3ob 3 года назад
oh bugger - i cut the ends off my belts lol !
@artespop1
@artespop1 3 года назад
How can I send you a PM?
@noelcarriere5202
@noelcarriere5202 3 года назад
ou peux ton achetez les upgrade
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Should be in the description, but here you go! Get these Upgrades and More from King Gubby Designs on Etsy and save! Find the As seen on Edge of Tech Kit by going here: www.etsy.com/shop/KingGubbyDesigns?coupon=ALOHOMORA
@sublimacolor5041
@sublimacolor5041 2 года назад
hola el archivo del tensor x no esta puedes apoyar
@spoton6584
@spoton6584 3 года назад
Whats your thoughts on the Ortur ?
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
Hi! Thanks for watching! I really like mine, but I wish it was more upgradeable on the electronics end. But there are a bunch of cool upgrades either way. The laser burns good and the support is great!
@ottersdangerden
@ottersdangerden 3 года назад
"screws strip easily" aww cheese grade screws!
@triztoe
@triztoe 3 года назад
Torture Toasters!
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 3 года назад
YES!
@bananasba
@bananasba 2 года назад
Lazy
@TheEdgeofTech
@TheEdgeofTech 2 года назад
Active!! ??
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