How to Wire a GFCI Outlet without a Ground Wire in an Older Home. 

Not when it is done correctly.

Had a fuse panel in my garage that was condemned by the insurance company Georgia Pacific. Had fuse panel installed inside because of code changes had to move main shut off outside. Electricians added a panel underneath my electric meter. It only has three Breakers a 30 amp double pole for my generator a double pole 20 amp for my pool pump a 20 amp single pole for my pool light which or both GFI. The problem I'm having every time you touch the fuse panel the gfi's trip. I replace the wiring for the pump and the light because it was in cast iron piping and rusted-out. You can literally touch the metal cabinet and the breakers will trip. Trying to figure out because all the breakers are still inside the garage is that considered my main cabinet or is that the sub-cabinet from this one with the main shut off. This one has the neutral and the grounds tied together no separate Ground Bar. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

Thank you Richard, Glad to help!

You're welcome!

Well said, and I am glad you enjoyed the video.

Got same old house, installed a gcfi with 2 wires but the little green indicator light don't come on , any idea why it's not on?

Thank You - I'm Glad it was helpful for you and your family!

Glad I could help!

You bet!

@@AskTheElectrician If I am correct, one of the bootleg ground circuits is just a death waiting to happen. Handyman Dave decides to fix up his dad's old Milwaukie "Sabre Saw", metal body, lovely device. Dave lovingly takes it apart, decides to update it a bit with a new power cord, but decides to use a grounded one, after all, it's the responsible thing to do he says to himself, he attaches the ground to the metal body, the idea being if the hot should come in contact with the body it immediately shorts to ground tripping the breaker, good idea. In theory. But then some jagoff goes and installs a bootleg ground, Handyman Dave finishes his repair, takes the tool over to the outlet with the bootleg ground, plugs it in. Unknown to Handyman Dave, he has now connected the body of that saw to the neutral wire of the circuit, neutral and hot are sitting there waiting to make contact, Dave pulls the trigger, fast forward an hour or two and Dave is researching the idea of double insulation and wonders what it will cost to have an electrician rewire his house correctly... This about right?

@@BestLittleStudio They are not inherently dangerous. It was the standard way of grounding in many countries. Sure one should not do things that are against the local code. The main problem is interference it can cause because of stray currents that can go through data lines. The most important safety issue is that some people do it incorrectly and create a reverse bootleg ground.

@@okaro6595 What data lines?

Happy to help

Thank You - Glad it helped

Hi LH, and Thank You for your kind comments! When updating an older home start with the basics to bring the home up to code especially with AFCI and GFCI protection and smoke detectors, then upgrade the panel and circuit wiring a you are able. Hope tp see you at my website: ask-the-electrician.com

@@AskTheElectrician You're welcome and yes I'm one step ahead with the smoke detectors and I have two fire extinguishers in the house as well. I really believe in fire extinguishers. I have one in my car, one in my daughter's car, one on my bike and one I'm my shop. Those can mean the difference in a small burn spot somewhere and you're whole livelihood being turned into a pile of ashes.

Thank you very much Matzi!

Thank you for watching!

Glad it was helpful!

John, if there are other receptacles on that circuit (another bath, bedroom, garage,etc), then the GFCI receptacle should replace the receptacle that is closest to the breaker panel. This gives GFCI protection to everything downstream on that circuit. This is actually a manufacturer’s recommendation. To meet code you need to label all the faceplates downstream with ‘both’ the “GFCI protected” label and the “No equipment ground” label.

Glad it was helpful!

It is always best to upgrade the wiring system and have the required grounding installed according to current codes.

Jumper wires on an outlet from the ground screw to the neutral connection point on the same outlet should be removed.

Glad you liked it!

LOL - Yes - We see all varieties of wiring out there, pretty incredible! That's what keeps us busy!

Your Welcome!

There are several different types of flex conduit and fittings. Some are approved as a means of grounding when installed properly and by using the correct approved fittings and methods as specified by the NEC Code. if in doubt, then install a separate ground wire and use the appropriate boxes, fittings and methods as approved by the NEC Code with has been adopted in your specific area.

Yes - it is unfortunate that there have been a lot of installations of electrical panels and devices that are not correct. One of our goals is to teach others how these things should be done right.

Your right Darrius - installing a jumper wire from the ground to the neutral on a receptacle outlet is definitely not the way to do it, and it has hazardous potentials.

@@AskTheElectrician That's known as a bootleg ground.

That is how grounding in many countries have been done earlier. All my grounded outlets are done that way.

@@AskTheElectrician Is this the reason why I sometimes get shocked in the shower?

@@JoshR512 possibly a wire touching the drain pipe

Just be sure that a jumper wire is NOT installed between the ground screw terminal on the outlet and the neutral of the outlet, as this is not allowed.

Thanks!

Yes - and that is why the sticker has to be placed on this method of installing a GFCI outlet to indicate that the outlet is not grounded. What you are describing will be covered in my video about Testing Outlets - good observation.

I’m getting a “hot/neutral reversed” error, would this mean another issue down line?

Yes, that is One example of how an outlet circuit may be wired and have GFCI protection for one specific outlet.

Glad to help

Great questions Joseph. The 3-wire GFCI tester you have only works where there is a ground wire as part of the circuit. A ground source must be provided for testing the GFCI outlet, so I typically locate a ground source such as a cold water metal pipe and create a temporary test cable, and then I test using an analog tester, and test from the ground wire to the power side of the outlet and this will trip the GFCI outlet. Keep in mind that there are Several of these topics covered at ask-the-electrician.com. See you there!

@@AskTheElectrician HEY, Thank you Very Much. I'm checking out your website now, and i'll watch all your videos and keep learning!~ I watched this video a few times already and keep picking up new things. When you say test cable, do you mean like a long ground wire attached to the metal pipe and ran along to the outlet in question to trip test?

You are welcome!

Thanks, and keep in mind that you can see more at the website: ask-the-electrician.com See you there!

Thanks!

No - a GFCI outlet may be installed no matter how old the wiring is as long as the existing outlet wiring is in working condition and the wires can be identified.

@@AskTheElectrician Thank you for sharing your knowledge! I truly appreciate it.

My pleasure

It should pass inspection because the GFCI Outlets will provide the required ground fault protection in the required areas.

Did it pass? My rental failed inspection twice because of it. Even though I had GCFI outlets installed. If so what kind did you buy any specific brand maybe? I can't think of anything

Did you pass your inspection Thomas?

GFCI installed in my house and did not pass. Now, I have to invest in rewiring house. It will cost me 16,000 dollars.

@@mikejohnson9586 you must've had a very strict inspector. The NEC does permit an older non grounding receptacle with a grounding receptacle, provided it's protected by a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter and you label the GFCI outlet "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND " and any newer grounding type receptacles are labeled "GFCI PROTECTED, NO EQUIPMENT GROUND. " 406.4 (D) (2) (b) & 406.4 (D) (2) (c) of the 2020 NEC

Glad it helped you. Be sure to have smoke detectors and AFCI protection as well as GFCI outlets in the required areas.

Very welcome

You are welcome!

Thank you Alvaro, I'm glad you find my videos helpful! Yes - a ground wire may be installed from the main panel to various outlets of a circuit. Be sure the ground system at the main panel has been installed properly as well.

@@AskTheElectrician i am impressed, not only that you answered my question but you went through and answered every question for this video. Thank you so much.

Thanks for the tip

Yes

Thank You

Yes - that works as well, the only draw back is having to go to the panel to reset the breaker if there is a fault at any of the outlets.

@Ask-The-Electrician I do it that way because I know there is a good ground at the panel and feel that it may be a little better if the gfci can take full advantage of the the way the device was designed.

That is better as it protects also if the live wire touches an ungrounded metal box.

Thanks JR, Glad it was helpful! See more at ask-the-electrician.com See you there!

Many many Thanks, Martin!

The circuit wiring was tested before hand to reveal the power source, which is installed on the Line side as noted.

Go ahead!

Connecting a ground wire from the GFCI Outlet to the box would also ensure the box to be protected by ground fault as well, but the main concern is to provide protection at the outlet.

An ungrounded metal box is dangerous. Whether you connect the wire or not in case of hot wire getting loose it can lead the voltage to the equipment case.

Your Welcome!

Thanks for the complement - Yes, a GFCI circuit breaker will protect the whole circuit and trip off if a ground fault is detected.

When a GFCI outlet is wired without a ground wire it will not test as having a ground path. However the GFCI will detect if there is an instance to ground that exceeds a normal condition and will trip off thereby providing ground fault protection. This is why the sticker is required, stating that there is No Equipment Ground.

Your so Awesome!! TY for your time your answer was very helpful bless you and have a fabulous day 🙏✌

We typically identify the wiring by testing using either a non-contact voltage tester, or if necessary we use a voltage tester and an external wire that is attached to a known ground source, such s a water facet or water pipe. Once the wiring has been identified then we can make the proper connections.

Yes because this method does dot include a ground wire.

That one needs the sticker.

Thanks for your comment MN. I would not connect a wire directly from the GFCI outlet Hot terminal to a ground source for testing the GFCI. In fact it would be much safer to use a wire from the Neutral side of the GFCI outlet and then touching a grounded source because this should accomplish the same ground sensing results with most GFCI outlets. I have both analog and digital testers, but I use my analog tester more because it does not take batteries, and because it only tests voltage, I do not have to switch the settings. Plus the analog tester I use fits nicely in my tool pouch. Keep in mind that there is a Wide Variety of people who are Inspectors, and in a lot of cases they are not "Electrical Inspectors", but rather people who are performing inspections from a list of things to check, and they may not be very familiar with all of the NEC Codes, which is challenging in itself. However the requirement for Ground Fault Protection IS satisfied when installing a GFCI Outlet, if it is grounded with a wire or not - it IS acceptable. That being said - If the project is extensive, such as a remodel job where a lot of rewiring is done, then an inspector can require the ground system to be updated to the current NEC codes that apply. And please keep in mind, that all of this depends on Location, because the level of adoption of the NEC code varies depending on the state and county, and some areas may not have adopted all of the newest codes, or even enforce them. As a rule of thumb, and to be on the safe side - it is always best to adopt and install electrical wiring and systems according to the current NEC code, adopted or not - in most cases - and specific to the application.

@@AskTheElectrician Thanks for the reply! So, I can also use a digital multimeter, to test either HOT to a GROUND or NEUTRAL to ground, and makes sure it is on Volts AC? This is not a remodel. I have to get a rental inspection for a home in Detroit, MI. And the inspector said GFCI's were one of many things they look for - on outlets within 6 feet of a water source (laundry, kitchen, and bathroom). He said he plugs in a 'tester' to see if the GFCI is good. I think some, if not all of those outlets are not grounded, so I was wondering if I should try to 'inform' him, or maybe see if a different inspector knows this code better? This home is from 1928, or so, and still has fuse panel. I think they are all 15 amp fuses, and my understanding is 15 amp GFCI is to be used for either 15, or 20, amp circuits, so that was I was going to buy? I also was not going to get either the tamper proof (as the outlets are above sinks, counters, etc) where kids can't get to them. I was also not going to get the weather resistant GFCI's, as I think those were for outdoors, and are not intended for normally damp areas - like basements, or baths?

Yes - the wiring method you have described will protect that one outlet. Examples of this and other projects are found on ask-the-electrician.com

Thank You!

The circuit breaker is sized to the size of the circuit wiring, so it should not be up sized, otherwise you risk creating an overheated condition on the wiring, thereby creating a a fire hazard.

Wiring the GFCI outlet as you described may cause nuisance trips, and possibly not protect the downstream outlets. It is best to attach the Line and Load wires for best results and ground fault protection.

At the main panel the main fuses should be checked to see if one has blown, if so it should be replaced with the same type fuse.

A label is not necessary if there is a ground wire or properly bonded ground path that is present.

Thank you for watching. Take care when installing a GFCI outlet in a smaller outlet box.

Glad to help you!

I agree that the cost for the panel upgrade itself is a high. The cost to do any project will depend on your location, the age of the home and the access to perform all of the work, which is typically based upon time and materials. Be sure to get at least three estimates in writing from licensed electricians who have excellent referrals, and make sure all of the work is done with a permit and has been inspected per the requirements of the building authority in your location or jurisdiction.

Great point, and in this case the overload protection would react and trip the circuit off. However if the GFCI outlet should also react if it is properly secured and attached to the metal box.

@@AskTheElectrician The overload protection does not work without a ground wire. A GFCI cannot detect faults that happen before it.

Yes, absolutely - that will definitely work.

At the main electrical service panel the neutrals and grounds are bonded at the same terminal strip. For the GFI breaker make sure to test it without a load or the circuit wire connected. This may help you see if there is a problem in the wiring of the circuit.

Yes - the original boxes are very small so if the space is too small for the wires and the GFCI Outlet then a surface type electrical box, such as a Wiremold product may be installed by mounting an Extension box on the surface face of the existing box, and the extension box will provide more space for installing the GFCI Outlet. The only other option would be to carefully extract the existing box and replace it with a deeper single gang box, and this is possible, but it is very tricky and one has to be very careful. Also keep in mind that some of the GFCI Outlets are slightly smaller than before, or when comparing to another brand that you are considering which may be larger.

@@AskTheElectrician I will add this: some of these older homes don't have drywall because it was built before drywall was created. These older homes have plaster instead. I live in a home built in 1955. The original owner built the house himself, using plaster to finish the wall. My folks bought the home in 1961, before my older brother was born, and my sister was a baby. When I was in high school back in 1980, I had taken a class in Electronics and learned about house wiring and NEC Codes. My parents had me replace a double switch box that got rusted and damaged from a roof leak over our kitchen. That double gang box was next to the outside exit from the kitchen, and contained the wires to an outdoor backyard porch light and 1 of the light fixtures in the kitchen. I found it can be messy trying to replace a box, but worth the effort to do it yourself. I even found out that the old double gang box happened to be grounded from behind with a separate 12 gauge bare wire nailed to the box bracket and stud. I managed to carefully remove the box after breaking up the plaster carefully around the box, and route the ground wire into the new double gang box. The new double gang box was an expandable box which I nailed in place to the stud. I used new Romex clamps on the switch wires and routed the ground wire inside the box, grounding the box properly with a grounding machine bolt. At that time, new light switches did not have grounding screws, so I rigged a self grounder to ground the light switches to the box when screwed in. By the way, the wall with the double gang switch box has the kitchen sink on it. Right near the switch on the next stud, I have an old grounded outlet inside a small box as well. That box was also damaged by the roof leak above the kitchen years ago. When we did a plaster repair to the wall decades ago, I saw the ground wire attached to the box bracket nailed to the stud as well. I currently have a GFCI and box ready to replace the old rusty box and the old grounded outlet. The challenge will be repairing the plaster around the box, once the new box and GFCI are in place. My community doesn't require me to put in AFCI/GFCI combinations in my kitchen; just the GFCI for now. I'm not about to install any "childproof" outlets either, even if NEC codes say they're required now, as I don't have children living in my house. There is 1 thing I'm curious about: do you know if NEC code back in 1955 required that light fixtures exposed to the outdoors such as porch lights were required by code to be grounded? I have 2 outdoor porch lights, one on a wall with plumbing on it, and grounded per fixtures on walls with water pipes and the other on a wall with no water pipes and sinks. I have no way of testing to find out if the front porch light is grounded or not. I do know my back yard porch light is grounded because an electrician tapped the fixture box to install an outdoor outlet to power a water softener back in 1964. The walls the front porch light is on have no exposed plumbing fixtures.

Yes - an indoor location is typically not a Wet location, Weather resistant locations are typically exterior applications. If the interior location were considered to be a Wet location then a special cover would be required as well. All of this being Application Specific.

@@AskTheElectrician thank you. Another request... 24 years ago we installed GFCI outlets in our master bath when the home was new. Two over the dual sinks, and one on a dedicated circuit for a whirlpool tub. After many years, I noticed one by a sink & the one for the whirpool tub no longer trip when using the TEST button. Why would they fail? They are still usable, but I figured they no longer function as intended.

If outlets are not grounded from a source then two prong outlets should be installed, and GFCI outlets installed in required areas.

@@AskTheElectrician thanks for the reply! I just found out that the electrician installed GFCI outlets at the beginning of each circuit and from what I’m seeing that’s suitable. I do plan to have the house rewired later on so I think this is suitable for now.

@@gstrou86 That is just why they should be marked. If they have properly been marked "No equipment ground" and "GFCI protected".

Yes, absolutely - a GFCI Circuit Breaker is definitely an option to protect the entire circuit.

@@AskTheElectrician what about just putting a gfci plug upstream on the branch

When a ground wire is not present a plug in circuit analyzer will show an open ground. However when a GFCI outlet is installed it will provide Ground Fault protection regardless.

Wiring may be verified using a voltage tester with one lead attached to a grounded source, such as a grounded outlet box or switch box, or a continuous metal water pipe, then testing the wiring to see if one has voltage. Yes - if GFCI protection is not needed for downstream outlets, then the wiring you have described should be connected to the Line side of the GFCI.

Thank you!@@AskTheElectrician

Many of the older homes with fuse panels and original wiring do not have a ground wire with the electrical circuit wiring.

Mine also has a fuse box rather than breakers. How do we determine which outlet is the first from the box that needs gfci from the load outlets that will be gfci protected from the line?

If there is a Ground Fault that is detected with a GFCI outlet then the GFCI will trip off the power to the outlet.

In a case like this I use my non-contact volt tester, which is pretty accurate, however other wires in close proximity can interfere and cause a false reading. The most accurate way is to create a grounded test wire which is attached to a known metal water pipe, copper being the best, and then use this test wire. This will only work if the whole house has metal plumbing and if the main water service is metal as well, which is most likely rigid steel or galvanized water pipe.

For best results, the wiring should be reconnected as it was originally to ensure all of the areas receive power as they should. It would be best to have an electrician test the wiring for proper connections.

@@AskTheElectrician that's exactly what I did, everything works as it should, my outlet tester does display "open ground" I went a ahead and put a sticker label on it that came on the GFCI box etc. Thanks for the reply!

Yes - the GFCI Outlet does need the circuit power to be on in order for the protection to work. The ground fault protection is powered by the circuit.

Great Question Jacob! When wiring only to the Line side the GFCI protection will work for the GFCI outlet location only, However if there are additional devices that need to be GFCI protected then the circuit wiring for these devices are attached to the Load terminals, And in this case - Yes, the Line and Load wires will need to be identified, especially the incoming circuit power wires which will be attached to the Line terminals, the remaining wires leading to the other devices requiring GFCI protection are attached to the Load terminals. Also, keep in mind that creating pigtail splices may be used as well depending on the number of wires that are used, and how much space there is inside the outlet box.

@@AskTheElectrician would be good to include that information in the video

Testing a GFCI outlet to a grounded source, such as a water facet or drain, is one way to see if the GFCI device is working and will cause the ground fault device to trip off.

Yes - Ground Fault protection is provided for all the outlets and other devices on the same circuit when a GFCI Outlet is installed in the first position on the circuit, and wired correctly with the proper Line and Load connections. The same is true for installing a GFCI circuit breaker, all of the circuit is protected for ground fault. Also note that only one type of GFCI protection is necessary for each circuit.

It could be - and the only way to know for sure would be to check to see if the ground wires are spliced together at each outlet box, and if the ground wire is properly connected at the panel.

If I can verify that there is a ground wire with the circuit from the panel then attaching the ground wire to the box and to the outlet is the correct method. If a ground wire is attached to a metal box and the circuit from the panel does not include a ground wire then this would be a false ground.

You cannot ground it to a box. You should then ground the box. In fact a metal box is a safety hazard. If the live wire gets loose or the insulation breaks and the box gets the mains voltage the current will go through the ground wire to the equipment case and it goodbye. A GFCI does not protect against a fault that happens before it. This, however, happens even without any "grounding to the box" as the receptacle is connected to the box. Do not improvise with the ground.

You cannot ground to a box that is not grounded. The only way that wire can push electricity is to the equipment case (like if the live wire gets damaged) but the screws used to connect the receptacle does it anyway. I have thought metal boxes meed to be grounded so one should change the box to a plastic one if it is not. That is much safer as you will not get killed if the live wire touches the box. Never improvise with grounding!

UF Type cable is intended to be used for Underground Feeder applications. When is it installed underground it is typically buried 18inches deep.

Thanks for your Comments. Please Visit ask-the-electrician.com for more detailed information.

If a ground wire is not part of the circuit wiring, or a ground wire is not attached to the outlet box, then a non-grounded two prong outlet should be installed.

When there is only one set of wires, the wiring is attached to the Line side of the GFCI outlet.

The original wiring was cloth insulation and did not include a ground wire. An additional ground wire may be installed a per NEC specifications.

A Ground Fault is an event that occurs, such as a person getting an electric shock. A Ground Path is a physical device or environmental element that provides a low resistance connection to the earth ground.

Make sure the dimmer switch is compatible with the lamps in the light fixture. Also double check the Line and Load wiring to the GFCI outlet.

Welcome 😊

Yes - it is required to bond the ground terminal on the outlet to a metal box using a ground wire attached to an approved green ground screw. Note: There are some outlets that have a copper bond between the mounting yoke bracket and the ground terminal screw, however this feature is not found with standard receptacle outlets. Thank you for your kind remarks, I am glad my videos are helpful!

@@AskTheElectrician Thank you for the prompt reply. I really appreciate the feedback.

a Combo Switch Outlet will protect the same way, however it will only protect the single outlet.

Yes - If a ground wire is needed for a grounded appliance cord then a ground wire may be installed to a copper or galvanized water pipe that is in the same location, using an approved ground clamp. Otherwise continue to use the two prong outlets. Install GFCI Outlets where they are required even if there is no ground wire available - they still work and are code compliant.

Yes - and the heat shrink tubing may be used when the splice is properly made, but it is not a common method typically used in residential work.

Right

On the same circuit or separate circuits? Is one connected to a switch?

@@ccyaltron the same circuit, there is not switch, it's basically two hot cables coming to the same outlet. The current outlet is split because they broke the metal bridge that connects the two gold connectors.

You can't split the GFCI outlet. You have to use only one of the circuits. Now if you did not specify if you have ground wires. If you do, you can of course add additional socket that uses the other circuit. Without ground wires that is not allowed.

A plug in circuit analyzer is very useful for testing for ground, and other circuit conditions.