Great video! Was very comprehensive, and super easy to understand. This needs to be shared all over the internet. I just wanted to add/reiterate a few things for everyone. The caravan industry is rife with cowboys, and indeed the RV industry in general (boat builders, im looking at you..) Get the weights of whatever your buy in writing, and get it weighed as soon as you pick it up. If its significantly heavier than advertised, dont be afraid to take it back to where you bought it and shove it up their arse. It happens all the time, they leave off stuff like bedding, gas bottles, optional stuff, storage boxes etc off the total weight to make them sound better. So ask the question, what items are excluded from the weight, and how much extra does it all add up to. As mentioned in the vid, the 10% ball weight is a general rule of thumb, any ball weight (within reason) is good weight. Also as mentioned, the towing angles make a massive difference to how the car/van package handles. Also, particularly when buying utes, ask if the tray/tub is included in the weights. For example, utes advertised as 'cab chassis' are delivered with no tun or tray, and weight is listed to reflect that. A tub can be around 80-150ish kg, and trays anywhere from 100-400ish kg. So it pays to have that worked out, as it could be the difference between legal and illegal.
This needs to be adopted by the department of transport. And a link provided by all caravan sellers to customers. Caravan owners are some of the most dangerous road users out there, they are oblvious to weights. Nothing instills confidence to other users than seeing a 4wd/suv squatting so far down in the rear the front wheels are floating along the road.
Cam not sure what your day job is but you would make a great teacher. Love the way you used your own real example to build up what to most caravaners is a complex topic and often overlooked or not well understood. So your work here is much appreciated. We are currently setting up a touring rig with a new Prado and have a Pedders GVM pre-rego organised as part of the purchase price with Toyota. The GVM upgrade makes it possible to keep within that all important rear axle load as its usually the first limit to be exceeded when towing. With regard to your boat. There are other options like plastic fold-up boats like the Portabote. We took one around Australia quite a few years ago before I had head of GVMs. It was only 10 ft but only weighed 30kg. Not sure what the weight of the 4hp motor was. It could take my wife and two small children. You can get 12 ft versions of these now and they fold flat like surf boards. Good also to discuss the load capacity of your tyres on the D-Max when doing a GVM upgrade and loading up your vehicle. Is there a rule of thumb for the final load on tyres above the stated tyre rating limit? Thanks again for your excellent work.
Thanks Cam. Great explanation, should be compulsory viewing for all prospective caravan owners and plenty of current ones too. You have also validated my decision to get a GVM upgrade. Booked in with Peddars tomorrow.
Well explained. I think the tinny has to go, plus all other you tube channels have tinnies and it would be good to have a point of difference. Your channel has remained different as you’re not driving around in a $250k stretched 200 series or plugging an expensive brand of caravan so you remain relevant to the vast majority of your viewers. I’m sure if someone offered you these products you’d jump at them as we all would. You can rent tinnies everywhere or jump in someone’s else’s.
@@WildTouring Agree With Anthony, its one of the things we love watching your Channel is that you do what most people can afford up to a point of cause. Watching these youtubers with a Stretched 200 or RAM and a Lotus or other van with a total cost of like 400k just isn't realistic for everyone. The way you laid out what you want/need from a van was pretty much like for like what we laid out on ours.
Another option is inflatable boat or inflatable kayaks ,get a bigger Ute rated to handle these loads, I if you don’t want to lose the tinny. Was the weigh of the outboard motor considered in the weights? Thanks for the explanation it was well done👍
for a person who really doesn't understand, or pay attention when he hubby speaks, your informational video's are the best, the way you explain things is so easy to understand. On a side note I'm slightly devastated with your last few video's.....my favorite part is your welcome, "G'day guy's Cam Wild, Wild Touring " is missing. I know small things 😌
Just watched your video. Very well done. Best explanation I've seen so far. You did forget one thing regarding the tinnie. Regardless of GVM upgrades, payloads etc., the roof load limit remains the same. No upgrade will change that. I think like most 4wds, the limit is 100kgs with a few exceptions, which means you can't load much on top. It's a centre of balance thing. Once you include the rack, awning and tinnie, you're well over your roof load limit and insurance may not cover you in the event of an accident
Thankyou for simplifying this complex thing and it is so very important to get it right for sure. In an accident this is a lethal weapon of destruction
Thanks Cam, One of the BEST explanations of these weight issues that face all of us travelers of this Great Country and taking our stuff with us!, Have found out the hard way you can’t build the ultimate camping setup and tow as well!, We are taking the Makocraft 3.46 tinny, yours obviously not working, shame awesome boat. Making some Canopy changes to make it happen as you . Keep up the Awesome content love following your adventures. Cheers
Great explanation. Good to see a worked example. Loved the magnetic visuals, haha. John Cadogan has a few vids on this subject. He's not a fan of the way car manufacturers promote their towing capacities, as it's always unrealistic once you crunch the numbers.
Thanks heaps for uploading this video, great explanation. Ive been watching your video's all day today, such a great channel , so glad i came across it, I'm planning a big lap next year and all your video's are a great help, definitely will order some merchandise to give back what i have taken out . Happy Days.
Nicely explained! What happened to the old adage that the thing following shouldn’t be heavier than the thing leading, too many people on the road maxing out their numbers. I’ve got an old defender 130, 3.5 tonne gvm, 7 tonne gcm, simple numbers. I only ever put a tonne behind it though.
all car and caravan manufacturers would benefit from this video, its the best I have seen for weight explinations I have EVER seen period, very well done Cam, very well done
Good video and good explanation. However (and I know this is a controversial subject and not everyone agrees) my concern is with using the term actual ATM for the van (i.e. the loaded weight of the van which is less than the plated ATM) and using this actual ATM weight to calculate your TBM and GVM. Using this actual ATM weight to say you are legal is fine. Now comes the accident and your van and belonging are spread all over the road, does the insurance company come along and picks everything up and weighs it all to confirm your stated actual weight or do they in their calculation just use the plated ATM of the van and ten percent as the TBM to calculate their version of the GVM. Just saying, it could be an interesting court case if the plated ATM of the van plus 10 percent as the TBW exceeded the vehicle GVM.
Cam! You should have seen the car salesman's face when I threw figures likes this around. I was so impressed with myself in being able to articulate what we need from our new tow van. Thanks so much for sharing this with us!
Hi Cam, Love the vids and watching the series. One thing that you say alot is 'legally'. There is a definitive gap between what is legal and what is safe. In most (?) cases, these are two very different things. I watched with hesitation when you had the GVM upgrade, but I think ultimately you need a bigger vehicle. Every thing seems to be at(near) the limit of the upgraded GVM or the GCM. Doesn't leave much wiggle room. Did you consider a truck, Canter or NPS size? Already has the higher GVM, higher GCM. A mIle of seat room in the back for the kids, and you can take the tinny. I say win win. As a side note check out John Cadogan on GVM upgrades from an engineers perspective. He puts another perspective on the whole GVM/GCM debate.
Again, another excellent vid, Cam and very well explained with the visuals and number crunching. It can feel quite overwhelming to sit down and learn about tow weights, axle weights and tow capacities. The first number crunch session I did took about 2 hours as we were looking at caravans that we could legally tow with the car that we had at the time. We were not prepared to purchase a new car, so we purchased a van that our car could safely and legally tow....and had to forgo certain things to meet that brief. It was an on road caravan without an ensuite and yet we still had awesome getaways with it. For our current tow vehicle, I insisted on a Pre Reg GCM/GVM upgrade, not so that we COULD tow 3.5 ton and travel at max GCM, but that we had that weight buffer safety net across the tow combination. We tow our current van loaded at about 3.2t give or take 50kgs with 270ishkg on the towball, again depending on what we have in the van and how it is loaded. People are also getting caught out with weights, such as what happened with the unexpected weight of your current tinnie, or vans that have changed furniture configurations, or have added after market battery systems, extra solar panels on the roof, or added an after market airconditioner or washing machine. Those weight additions are not reflected on the compliance plates of the van. So people can look at the plate and calculate the payload and towball weight of their secondhand, but new to them, caravan and can be overweight before they even put a stubby of beer in the fridge and a loaf of bread in the microwave. (that is where people store their bread, right?) Everyone looking at purchasing a second hand caravan (regardless of age) should be putting the van over the scales/weighbridge before parting with ANY money. Despite all of the youtube videos, write ups in car and van mags, and oline articles there are still so many obviously overloaded combinations up out there. But, I am also sure that with more people talking about this and reading about this, they are looking at their own setups and thinking it is time to get legal. Got carried away, as per usual. Sorry.
Absolutely agree with all of the above! And good on you for putting the effort into figuring out what you could tow legally before purchasing something. I do regret not looking into a pre rego GVM/GCM upgrade for the same reasons (a little bit of a buffer!), but at the time Tiff and I had no intention to ever tow a caravan. Haha how things change when kids come on the scene!!
@@WildTouring - exceptional work... my wife is a preschool teacher and she commented on the quality workmanship... (gold star) and now about that *new* van of yours... nudge nudge... hint hint...
Thank you so much for explaining this so well, as a single woman men seem to just say you will be fine, but this explains everything.....yes I believe I'm over loaded as we speak....thanks again for keeping it real ad always..
hi Cam great video, just an idea, what about putting a rack on the bull bar and shifting the tinny fwd, taking some weight off the rear axle onto the fwd one?
Hey mate watched a few and yours is the best explanation I've seen and that was without Tiff! I did it wrong watched your trips bought a ezytrail 13 , very similar to your rig , ( well ,before you got all flash on us all at least) ,but for a small van heavy Tare is 1920 ATM 2800. Now working out if I can tow after the caravan purchase derrrrrr. But as I have a 4x4 2017 Hilux single cab plus canopy and bullbar winch etc , figured I should be right , as it is similar to what you had. Yes I know , no the correct way to go about it. So may look at getting the same guy to weigh vehicle. But if it's a case of other people who may be close to limit would it not be wise to fill up with water for caravan up north Canarvon for example? to save towing extra weight on that long trip? Is this something you do?
Cheers Chris, Darren will help ya weigh the rig and see where you’re at! Travelling with empty tanks to save some fuel economy is fine. But you’ve got to be legal with the tanks full- if you have an accident and roll your van, they measure the volume of your tanks and assume they were all full at time of the accident.
I guess we have it easy here in Europe, because the registration paper of the car (MOT) tells you how heavy caravan you are allowd to tow. There is no mystery about it.
great stuff mate , really learnt alot from this tutorial. I was thinking what if the winch was removed to loose the weight, would the front lift higher and put more load on the rear axle....... Cheers from two west aussies in Saudi Arabia.
Cheers Jem. Yeah mate I reckon you're right, any weight that comes off the car in front of the rear axle will probably increase rear axle weight a little!
Hi Cam, many thanks for the great explanation. Something that went through my mind is whether the axle weights (rear 1813 v 2000 in first example) should be taken including the 250 kg for the family?
Hi Cam. Great presentation. Easily understood & concise More significant, the combination of your knowledge, clarity & factual simplicity allowed me to create a spreadsheet using your data & now we can determine if a target vehicle & caravan will comply with mass limits. Sincere thanks.
Great video, one of the best ones on RU-vid presenting this topic. A few ideas Can you keep the outboard in the van to help with gvm? And move it to ute when needed and not hitched. Do you need to have water tanks full on van? At caravan parks you can fill up there and how many nights in a row are you free camping? You could keep the ute water tank to do a water run if needed. I think you should get a lighter tinny and trim weight everywhere else.
Cheers mate, from memory it was around the 3-4K mark. Best to check with your local store though, they are a franchise so prices vary slightly based on location!
Fun will start again, once you get your van, weight stripping, van and car. Second fridge... nope, lead batteries, gone, steel wheels... How would the weights have been on your old setup?
Just a question about the aftermarket GVM upgrade, does that void your manufacturer’s warranty and are you required to list that as a modification on your insurance policy and if you don’t what are the ramifications?
No modification can void your warranty, that’s BS dealers tell you to try avoid covering the cost of repairs. They have to prove that a modification directly caused an issue to deny a claim. I’ve had Isuzu try it on me before. I had an immobiliser issue and Isuzu initially rejected warranty because I had an aftermarket ECU. I asked for something in writing from them to explain how that modification is related to my immobiliser issue. They then decided to cover it under warranty 😂 Regarding your insurance policy- speak to your insurer for a definitive answer. But my thoughts would be that any modification should be on your policy if you want it to be covered. An approved/engineered kit is not going to be issue with your insurer, they won’t reject a claim if you have an accident and had not told them it had been fitted, engineered and registered with DOT. But they obviously won’t cover the cost of it if it’s damaged and not in your policy…
This would have to be the best video that I have seen explaining this important issue. Well done. I will share on caravan forums as every caravan owner must understand this issue.
Another crackin vid Cam, I really enjoy the whole 'toolbox' style videos. Thinking outside the box, have you considered a proper 4x4 truck like a Hino 300 derated to 4495KG GVM so you can drive it on a car license? BTW I'm not judging you and your choices in any way. Keep up the great vids
Cheers Phil! Yeah definitely mate, would love to do a truck build. But I just couldn’t afford to have one AND a capable 4wd. Truck would make a great tow rig, but they’re just not suitable for day to day commuting or most of the 4wding/camping I do without a caravan!
@@WildTouring I drove trucks for 17 years, 3.5 tonner, numerous 5 tonners and a 9 tonner, you don’t even notice the size after a while. When I had the 3.5 tonner I drove it more than my car so I ended up selling the car. But they weren’t 4x4 trucks
@@philsymons9614 yeah fair enough, I can imagine you’d get use to driving them regardless of their size. But when they get bogged it’s a bloody nightmare- been involved in a few light truck recoveries on the beach and in mud and it’s a whole different experience to recovering a car 😂
Im way more confused now my car has a gvm of 3100kg my caravan has a gvm of 2900kg tow ball weight 170kg my car atm is 2477kg my caravan atm is 2514kg total gvm is 5900kg any help with payload on car and van wound be appreciated
does that mean with what you mentioned for the front Tare weight is 1150 means at GVM you can only add another 200kgs to make it 1350 or do you mean another 1350kgs on top of the 1150? Im assuming at payload it is only 1000kgs so you add the only 200kg on front and 800 for rear on top of the Tare weight to equal 1000 for the allowed payload.
Does the towball weight come OFF the ATM when it's hooked up Example ATM...3000 GTM...2800 Towball ...200 Now if.. 3000 will exceed my vehicles towing capacity by 200kg And my van weighs in at 3000kg Am I legal when that 200kg gets transferred to the car towball ?
Great video. Two silly questions. How come a GVM upgrade of 500kg, doesn’t automatically increase the GCM by 500kg? Also my local caravan shop is selling a 2350kg tare van but say the tow ball weight I only need 180kg. Which is below 10%. Is that due to weight distribution of van set up? Thanks.
5.9T GCM? Yeah no dramas at all, the 4jj1 is a really solid motor. There is large safety margins written into this stuff. Same motor in Isuzu N series trucks with combined mass up to 10T with a B10 rating (meaning 90% of engines will do 500,000kms before requiring an overhaul).
Axle weights are not GVM, they are axle weights, GVM is the maximum the vehicle can weigh and in a lot of circumstances is less than the stated axle weights combined. ie a Land Rover 90 has a front axle of 1200kg, a rear axle of 1500kgbut a MAM of 2400kg or 2550kg depending on spec. A HD 110/130 has FA of 1580kg and a RA of 2200kg, but a MAM of 3500kg. Also something to remember is the trailer nose weight must come off the GVM/MAM if towing as it is load, in axle weights you have to times that by the difference in wheel base and overhang to get the actual loading on the rear suspension, the front suspension may not alter in weight applied to it! That depends on how the vehicle is loaded, not the trailer. Also GVM is the MAXIMUM the vehicle CAN weigh not it's actual weight as you describe. so that is just referred to as vehicle weight not GVM/MAM or occasionally GVW. Something else to consider is if outside of AU, then you may be limited to MAM and Combined MAM for the train weight, so for the 110/130 that is 3500kg MAM + 3500kg trailerMAM = 7000kg combined MAM. Land Rover is one of the only vehicle manufacturers that if the vehicle has a full 3500kg tow capacity it does not detract from the vehicle's weight, nearly all Japanise vehicles there is a compromise on actual and MAM of vehicle when towing max trailer weight. Towball weight and trailer angle is imensly important, always, always tow nose down with a single axle trailer, it is more self stabilising. in fact at that point you can reduce the nose weight considerably to less than 100kg. always load the trailer over the axle not to the extremes of the trailer bed, as that also stabilises the trailer under tow conditions. As a basic theory, the video is good, what would be great is for you to actually show the practical example and test the theory, I bet you'll be surprised with the results.
Ok as someone who doesn't live in AUS this has always been an interesting topic to me. I've got no idea how you guys figure out just exactly how much weight you are carrying when there is so many variables involved. Down to pretty much if you bring the family dog or if you had a big meal the day before. Just crazy. How much does it really matter in an emergency situation when you slam your brakes on all that weight over the axles Is going to change and likely cause you to be over limit on the front axle etc. No?
Great video. Realistically a safety weigh (car and vehicle) should be compulsory when a caravan, and/or trailer is sold. Also if a car is fitted or sold with tow equipment car should be weighed with owner in driver seat.
Hi Cam, was watching a program before yours and the said if you upgrade your car with air bags etc to carry more weight you shouldn’t because people are doing that and cracking there axles. The reason they say is whatever you go to above your axle weight limit when you use axle upgrades it’s still illegal because you are still over the safest factory limit. They gave 4 instances where the axles have broken in half. I hope this makes sense mate as it’s what they say not me. Thanks mate Jon🇦🇺 Take Care
You have hit a lot of nails on the head but have you driven any into the heads of people who are obliviously driving around illegal. I was set to travel around OZ last Jan in my new LC300 GR Sport, towing 3.5 ton van, but I'm still here in July waiting for the aftermarket segment to develop suspension and the like to let me do it legally. Your video , I think, just brings to light how many Vanners out there are totally oblivious to the fact that they are illegal on the road. I am not going to be one of them no matter the cost. We are in our 60's and believe it or not, my wife will be interested in what I believe to be one of the most simplistic explanations about towing and legal weights and loads. Keep up the good work.
It seems that if you move to Qld you can get any sort of upgrade done. No probs. The other problem is most caravan manufacturers lie through their back teeth as to the just delivered tare weigjt. They dont offer a individual weighbridge cert just say :we use our factory demo as and example.
Being in the transport industry weight is something that we're very conscious about, and I'm always concerned about the lack of knowledge out there. There seems to be a common comment that the sales man told me I'd be fine. Trust me the mermaids really don't care what you were told, you!! were the one driving. Also totally cracked up when you unhooked your little van and put the jockey wheel back. Very informative video 👍👍
Cheers Trev. Its a scary thing because car and caravan salesmen often don't have a sound understanding of the legalities either, and they're sometimes misinforming customers on something with serious safety and legal implications!
Thanks mate was great. Can you break down how you worked out you use 600kg payload in van? Ive asked this question in a few forums and not many prople knew what weight they are or need in van
We’ve based this on our weights from our big trip. We were using approx 500kg fully loaded, water tanks and gas bottles full, full cupboard of food etc. I’ve said about 600kg this time round as we’ll have the fridge in the van and to account for another child’s belongings (clothes, toys etc!)
If you did not upgrade your suspension which is very expensive does the van you purchase has to have an even more reduced tare weight to the one in your example?
When we bought our Dmax the salesman tried to tell us we could throw a tonne in the tub (one tonne ute) and tow a 3500kg caravan. I had to explain that the 1000kg payload is over the whole vehicle. He didn't believe me. We had the tub removed and an aluminium canopy put on before purchase. He kept telling us it would be no worries but we weighed the vehicle nearly empty with no fuel in the long range tank and we were over 2900kg. Straight away organised a Lovells GVM upgrade which now gives us 3600kg GVM and 7000kg GCM. Makes you wonder how many people believe the salesman and are going around very overloaded.
I think there is HEAPS of people getting around overloaded, its probably a mix of ignorance, misinformation and indifference. Car/Caravan salesmen definitely have a lot to answer for. I regret not looking at a GCM upgrade pre rego! Tiff and I spoke about it, but at the time (pre kids) we never thought we would be caravan people. Haha how things change hey...
Bloody hell... this would have to be one of the best explanations of towing on YT..one question I have is doesn't the GCM increase when you upgrade your GVM ?
Thanks mate! No unfortunately most of the time it won't. There are a couple of exceptions; - There is one pre-approved kit that can be fitted pre-registration to increase GCM. But it must be done prior to rego on a brand new car. - The only other way I'm aware of is with 6 wheeler conversions. Again this needs to be done pre-rego to be federally compliant. The weights can push these vehicles into the light truck classification with different rules in some states.
Thanks so much for that Cam. We've had our van for 2 years + and never fully understood all this stuff. I've been very conservative so feel confident but your explanation will allow me to confirm all is well. BTW my wife and I have watched all your videos and look forward to each new one.
Are you able to buy 14,000 lb/6.5 mt GVM vehicles in Australia? Being such a large country I would expect you to have a lot of use for vehicles that can tow larger trailers. The average fifth wheel camper in North America has a gross weight rating of 18,000 lbs/8.1t, and toy haulers are heavier than that.
Class 3 (10,001 to 14,000 lbs gvwr/gvm) trucks have payloads that fall in the 5,500 to ~8,000 lb range and tow ratings up to 40,000 lbs (GCWR/GCM of about 48,000 lbs).
