Thankyou so much...I'm a devoted (fanatical but very free) 12 stepper and was overjoyed finding this ...so much gold to share with friends in 12 step recovery process,...what a wonderful, mysterious journey it is! Blessed for the work of William James, Dr jung and other great pioneers of freedom from suffering and for their great dedication to finding meaning and truth ❤ 🙌
Thanks for taking the time to listen. I learned a lot about William James when I read his book and spoke with him. I love history, it's just so fascinating to me.
Thank you for this pod cast .I have been looking for a book like his for along time. It is good to know that I am sober with people who also hate those " Happy People". I plan to listen to this show several times. It looks like I ordered the last books on Amazon.
Thanks again for your thoughtful comment and for listening to the podcast. This conversation was one of my favorites not only because the subject matter was interesting, but the guest was so excited about it and he was so much fun to speak with. I learned a lot from this book and I think you will enjoy it.
Paul’s work, passion and dedication to living a Spiritually Recovered life from addiction and alcoholism is truly inspired and vital in understanding the whole point of Bill W writing the Big Book! As the book states: “…..the point is, we are willing to grow along Spiritual lines!!” Thank you Paul Schulte!
Hi Tyler! Thanks for listening. I appreciate your comment. I found it interesting that James did not consider the spiritual awakening as having anything to do with religion. He was really ahead if his time with that.
Thanks to both of you for your contribution, I *really* enjoyed it. I relate, and I'll try to explain quickly: I am an Internet/communications engineer and early in my career, my experience had a orientation involving security, so I'm exposed to quite a lot of psychology and other disciplines. I'm also "in recovery" and was quickly confused by the fact the AA Big Book that is referred to as "The Basic Text" when there's almost no credits provided, showing those responsible for contributing to the concepts expressed ("credits" and influence), This caused me to find out for myself. So.... James, Jung, Adler, various philosophers (incl. Marcus Aurelius), various organized religions, etc., etc... (I get it) and I'm not sure why so many of my peers don't also explore these things for themselves. This isn't required or even necessary when in search of "vital spiritual experience" (phenomena), but it just might prove the reality of Providence (divine direction) w/in the program. Again... excellent work! "Who I looked outside I dreams; Who looks inside, awakes." -CG Jung
I was disappointed with the book. Some elements of AA history are butchered in the book and others in the interview. Beyond that, there's a HUGE exaggeration of William James's influence. In AA Comes of Age Wilson tells us that the source of the bulk of AA's program come from the Oxford Group and Sam Shoemaker and from NOWHERE ELSE. The inimitable Ernie Kurtz in "Not-God" pokes a bit of fun at Bill's "knowledge" of the content of "The Vsrieties of Religious Experience." Bill's had no in depth understanding of the book's content.
Thanks for listening and for taking the time to comment. I wonder what Paul said that wasn't consistent with what we know of AA history? I never knew that Ebbie brought "The Varieties of Religious Experiences" to the talk with Bill at his kitchen. I wonder if that is what you found incorrect or was it the general idea that "Varieties" was the primary inspiration for what eventually became AA?
@@BeyondBeliefSobriety The book's bibliography has Dr. Bob Smith and Bill Wilson as authors of the Big Book. Even before William Schaberg informed us of the minimal Akron involvement in the writing the AA text, nobody was calling Bob an author. On p. 22, Paul refers to the 1950 writings in the 12 + 12, a book published in 1952. The reference to Bill as a former multi-millionaire is information I have not encountered and I've read a lot about Bill, as you know. The interview gets really crazy when we are told that Rowland's father was the Mayor of Albany. Rowland's family were Rhode Islanders. Ebby had the noted prominent relatives in Albany. His brother, not father was the mayor. The shooting of pigeons was in Manchester, Vermont, unwitnessed by Dad or brothers. I've seen no evidence that Bill had Varieties BEFORE his last confinement at Towns Hospital. Kurtz makes fun of Wilson's knowledge of the content of the James book. Bill's take was the need for "deflation at depth," a phrase not in the book. William C. Wilson's mountainside spiritual experience took place on Mount Aeolus right next to the village of East Doset where he lived. There's more, but you get the idea.
Turning again to Dr. Kurtz---he sees Bill's stressing the connection to the great Harvard intellectual and the eminent psychoanalyst in Switzerland as providing reflected bona fides to a group of drunks with a tremendous credibility problem. Those connections were hyped for practical reasons. Conversely, Frank Buchman was on the cover of Time Magazine in April 1936 and prominent featured in an article on cults. Four months later, Buchman made some unfortunate remarks in an interview with the New York World Telegram. As a consequence, AA swept its relationship with the Buchmanites under the rug. The OG is unmentioned in the 1939 Big Book. They pleaded with Jack Alexander to make no mention of the Oxford Group in the Saturday Evening Post article in 1941. Dishonest, but practical. William James would have appreciated the pragmatism of all that. In AA Comes of Age, Wilson finally credits the Oxford Group for the bulk of AA's program. Elsewhere, Dr. Silkworth has been repeatedly cited as the source of the information that led tp Step 1. The need for a spiritual experience came from Carl Jung. That's what our history books say.
I love this podcast. Paul did the hard work reading the book and diving deeper but what he describes is very much how AA and spirituality was presented to me in Belfast in 1986. James book was suggested reading in those days, after the bigbook, "AA comes of age" and "the "12x12". I did read Jame's book but it was really too hard to read for most, and AA wrote "came to believe" to fill the gap (that is too Abrahamic religious in my view). I love AA history and Paul's talk was a trip down memory lane for me, reminding me that knowing the history allowed me to own the steps and traditions as my own. It is a bit shocking to me to realise that this understanding of the history is not fundamental in AA any more. AA comes of age was number 2 reading, ahead of the 12by12 and there are several other AA publications that expose the warts and tradegy of AAs beginnings. This podcast really got me thinking about why AA is percieved as religious, which is so different from how I found it. This is helping me process my frustration with freethinkers and atheists groups. Maybe it is that my experience of traditional AA is of a radically openminded spirituality. I might start a "William james" AA group. as an openminded alternative to freethinkers. :-)
Oh, thank you so much for taking the time to write and for listening to this episode. I love history in general so it was natural for me to gravitate to the history books about AA. Ernest Kurtz's "Not God" is the best resource I know for AA history. I have not yet read William Schaberg's "Writing the Big Book", but I understand there is some new information in that book. Paul did an incredible job with this interview. His passion for the subject matter is contagious. I came away with greater respect for William James, a much better understanding of "Varieties of Religious Experience", and more confirmation that AA was never intended to be religious, and more of an understanding of the "spiritual not religious" nature of AA. I'm glad you enjoyed this conversation. I would like to have Paul back in the future to discuss other topics related to recovery.
James and the 12 Steps. Your guest Paul has a vast number of facts wrong. James was the founder of Empirical Psychology in the USA and founder of the American school of Pragmatism in Philosophy with Dewey and Peirce. He qualified in medicine but never treated patients or practiced medicine. He may have run controlled experiments on barbiturates etc, but this is the first I've heard of it. And when Paul describes Bill Wilson's riches it's pure fiction. Bill W was never a rich man. In fact much of his work was in client relations not stock. I suggest Paul branches beyond 'Varieties of RE" and doesn't just take a slice of the pie. Very poor guest. I did something very rare and switched it off! I am happy to be proved wrong ! John S London. UK.
