Hoya Burtoniae vs. Hoya Sp. Aff. Burtoniae/Bilobata/DS-70 🤔 how to tell them apart!!

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Hey plant fam!!! Thank you for coming back to my channel! If you're new here WELCOME! 🌱💕
Today I'm talking all about the differences between Hoya Burtoniae versus Hoya Sp. Aff. Burtoniae which is often mislabeled at Hoy Bilobata or DS-70! I hope that you find this helpful, these are so similar it can be hard to tell on small plants, but as mine have grown I've been able to se clear differences in the shape of the leaves!☺
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#HOYABURTONIAE #HOYABILOBATA #HOYADS70 #HOYACARE

Опубликовано:

16 авг 2021

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Комментарии : 156

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Check my community page for a side by side comparison of the two plants in greater detail!!

@PeanutsPlants 2 года назад

You are just the sweetest 🥰 Thanks for the shoutout!! I’m so happy it’s grown for you. I needed this video I didn’t know the difference. 😂 🌿❤️

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I think of you every time I look at it 😊💕

@TheElsMarie 2 года назад

Very helpful video. I got Burtoniae one or two years ago, and it was labeled DS 70. It’s a massive plant now, it has filled out the 10 inch pot it came in & has very long vines, which are all purple. There’s very little green on now, it's mostly all purple and it's one of my biggest Hoya and it’s so beautiful!! Definitely a favorite of mine.

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Love the leaves when they sun stress!!! So pretty!! 😍

@gretap3917 5 месяцев назад

I think the purple color comes from the light is receving .It can grow on indirect light ir brigthe light were coloration occur .Im strugling with mine ,so Im happy for you .🎉

@YourPalQWERTY 2 года назад

Just bought one at my Home Depot of the bibobata / ds70 I got one for a friend since we have what we thought we had the same Hoya until we got it home. but this video really help shed some light on the two different plants. Thank you!

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I thought they were the same too until I had them both and was like, wait, this is a different plant 🤔 Glad I could help!! Jury is still out on what a bilobata even is 😂

@MsNipri 2 года назад

Love how you explained the differences between the Hoyas! 😍😍😍

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Glad it was helpful!

@Crystal-be9ze 2 года назад

This is soooo helpful I appreciate you explaining this in such depth

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I'm glad it was helpful!!! ☺🌿💕

@kerrymcallistee3418 2 года назад

Enjoyed your video. It's helpful to learn some differences in the Hoya world. I've just started to collect Hoyas along with my orchids and other houseplants. Thank you for sharing.

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Hoya is an amazing Genus to collect! I just got into orchids!! I had three, now I just have two haha. Both phaleonopsis (idk if I spelled that right), but someone gifted me a vanilla orchid and I LOVED it, but so did the thrips 🥺

@ashleygreen-bg3mc Год назад

Just got one today! Burtoniae! Thanks for the help in identifying😊

@coffeecakes1 2 года назад

Girl! Do you have spies??? I was just trying to do research on this very thing! Burtoniae is on my wish list and I didn't know which one I actually wanted. Thanks for this vid, you're the best! So very helpful! I think I want the Sp Aff one...i think... :)

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Haha! That's funny! Good timing! I definitely love them both, but I do prefer the Sp. Aff. Poor thing has no actual name, and the blooms are identical, so you're not missing out. They both put out blooms like mad too!!

@coleDavis-df5yi 2 года назад

So glad to know which Hoya I bought, thank you.

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I'm happy to help!! Hoya can be confusing sometimes!

@WoodlandT 2 года назад

Fascinating! I’ve been wanting to get a burtoniae. At least I thought I did. Apparently what I want is actually the sp. aff burtoniae. The dark margins & rounder leaves are the entire appeal for me. Now I know exactly what to look for thx 😁

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I did the same exact thing! I'm happy to help 😊

@tracyanne2617 2 года назад

I have the one in the hanging basket you showed. Cool and good to know. 🌿

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Happy to help 😊

@ElisaA29 Год назад

I’m glad to know the one I got locally was actually labeled correctly and that I DO have a Burtoniae! ☺️ Thank you for the video and tips!

@jaclynns.jungle Год назад

You're so welcome!

@OrdinaryPlantGirl 2 года назад

Loved this!!!

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Thanks girl ☺🌿

@wickedskye257 2 года назад

😍very helpful, thank you. 😍

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Always happy to help 😊

@cruelsister1 3 месяца назад

Thanks so much for this video. You identified my Hoya burtoniae for me.

@jaclynns.jungle 3 месяца назад

That's awesome! I'm glad I could help! 😊

@avaf1084 2 года назад

Great explanation!

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I'm glad you think so! I always feel like I have more to add after the fact 🤣

@DavidBadurina 2 года назад

Hey I recognize that plant! Also, sorry you didn't like my rap video. WHATEVER. 😝💜

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I said the production was good!!! 🙃💙

@chrissacook 2 года назад

Can't wait to get home and see which one mine is 😍

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I hope this helped and didn't make shit more confusing 🤣

@vespirs Год назад

I love your personality & enthusiasm, but unfortunately there is a ton of misinformation in this video.. Hoya sp. aff. burtoniae, and Hoya bilobata are *not* the same species. Hoya sp. aff. burtoniae DS-70 is a *specific* collection of H. sp. aff. burtoniae made by David Silberman, and unless your plant came with this tag (and not from Costa) you cannot tether this number to the plant. The plant that you have which you believe to be the “real” Hoya burtoniae is also Hoya sp. aff. burtoniae, it’s just a different clone that is in circulation. The “real” Hoya burtoniae is not in mass circulation at all, and is basically absent from the market. For the sake of not spreading more misinformation in an already *very* confusing mess that’s been made, I would recommend either taking this video down, or remaking it with the help of someone who is very familiar with this group of species in the Acanthostemma section. 💚

@jaclynns.jungle Год назад

I appreciate the info. This is how they're marketed, and an easy way for people to see the differences between the two species. The names don't matter to most, just a way to differentiate between them. Again, I appreciate the info and your concern, but I'm not taking my video down. You're more than welcome to make your own video explaining this and I'm happy to share it 😊 👍🏻 Also, I don't use the name DS-70 nor do I encourage others to do so. Just pointing out that the plant is mislabeled by Costa Farms since that's where majority of the confusion comes from.

@beyogawellwithgina4861 9 месяцев назад

@@jaclynns.jungleI cannot believe it was suggested that you take this video down. 😂 I appreciate your explanation, as I have been confused as to what I own, too. Labeled DS-70 but looks much more like your first plant. Oh well, I’m loving it nonetheless, still a rewarding Hoya!

@cherylsignor9646 2 года назад

😍Thanks for clarifying! I’m going to go look at mine now to see which one I have.

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I'm happy to help! Don't get discouraged if you can't tell, it can be really hard when you don't have both! I think I'll post more photos of the two on my community page today to give more examples, should have done that in the video 🤷🏻‍♀️

@cherylsignor9646 2 года назад

@@jaclynns.jungle I thought you did a great job showing the differences! I could tell mine is a Burtoniae because the leaves are elongated. Buzz and Thrive sold it as one and they were right.

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I'm so glad you think so, and that it was labeled right!! Mine came to me as Burtoniae as well, but then I realized that it wasn't the one I had saved on my phone. Of course the one I had saved was actually the Sp. Aff. Burtoniae, but who knew, it was tagged as Burtoniae and Bilobata and DS -70 🤷🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️ Makes it hard when you want to find one specifically and you don't even know if it's labeled right!!

@AM-pw3qb Год назад

Bedankt voor je informatie, heeft mij veel geholpen 😊

@jaclynns.jungle Год назад

Happy to help! 😊

@cherylgoodman3416 2 года назад

🙋‍♀️ Hoya head! 😍😍😍 Loved it as always those hoyas once you get one you must find them all!

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

It's a sickness 🤣

@StitchesbySharonH 2 года назад

I don’t have these guys but they’re super cute!! Our T-shirts just came in (I surprised my husband with a “present for no reason” ) and he loves it! 😁 Thank you for sharing! 💜💚🪴

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I love that!!! How sweet of you to surprise him! I live doing things like that for people 😊 Glad you guys like them, David and I are obsessed with ours! They fit so nicely and are so cozy!!! Can't wait for fall to get more hoodies haha

@StitchesbySharonH 2 года назад

@@jaclynns.jungle 😊

@sharpestdart 2 года назад

Very helpful, thank you :)

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I'm happy to help!! ☺💕

@CheriR. Год назад

I love the one on the left with its cute round leaves and nice growth form but it is sooooo hard to find. Sometimes I see pictures of both advertised as the same plant. I'll probably never find one but at least your video helps me know what to look for. Thank you!

@jaclynns.jungle Год назад

Happy to help when I can 😊

@MyFellowFoliage 2 года назад

This is such a helpful video Jaclynn! Btw I think the names are also confused in Australia. The hoya bilobata looks very different here and the burtoniae that you showed looks like a hoya 'honey dew' that we have here. Who knows what's what anymore!

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I think I've seen people calling it honey dew as well 🤷🏻‍♀️ who knows haha! It's not a big deal, I'm just weird and I like to know the botanical names of all my plants. Had these two for so long that it always bothered me, I had to figure it out, and then of course seeing all the confusion continue I felt like I needed to share what I've learned 😊💕

@sandiesorchids9387 2 года назад

Perfect love😍

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Thanks! 😊

@landonmejia6797 2 года назад

Nice job girl love the video

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Thanks!

@landonmejia6797 2 года назад

You are welcome love the Hoya that you showed want one lol☺️☺️☺️

@mabonniejungle....7851 2 года назад

😍 Love your hoya video, I've been slowly collecting teeny weeny cuttings 🌱, cheap and cheerful 😃 I can't wait till they grow (btw haven't forgot about Crash, and his breathing issues will send him some pennies as soon as i can 💗) Love and hugs ❤ from me to you(s) xxx

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Same here! It's cheaper that way if you know how to root and grow them fast and easy! I have a video on how to do that scheduled for soon!! And dont stress about Crash, I have an update on him coming in a video this weekend, he's got his medicine and he's much better!! We appreciate all the love and support 🙏🏼💕

@melissamonroe7351 2 года назад

Thank u! 😍

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Happy to help!

@beabopaloola9234 2 года назад

I will watch any ad as long as it isn’t the Train air conditioner ad. The noise / music they play with it is painful. This was a helpful video. 😍

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Haha, some of the ads are truly awful. Don't watch those 🤣

@Figuringitout7 2 года назад

Now I know! I have a Bilobada! Thank you Jaclynn 😁

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Happy to help! I prefer the rounder leaves 🤷🏻‍♀️

@Figuringitout7 2 года назад

I just ordered a "Gloom where you are planted " tshirt and used your code! I'm so excited. It fits my personality to a "t" 🤭🤪

@VanessasPlants 2 года назад

👀 great video!!! Just found your channel. It’s wonderful

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Thank you 😊

@babyashy0802 2 года назад

Hello Jaclynn! New subscriber down here. I collect orchids but few months back I got into hoyas and have around 50 of them already 😄 I purchased the aff sp burtoniae at Etsy $20 plus shipping for a rooted but small plant and a week after I go to homedepot and I find this huge hoya on a 8" pot for $20 on the tag it said DS-70 didnt know which one it was but I liked it and I took it home with me. When I get home I google it and I found out it was the same. 😊

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

There's certainly a lot of confusion around the plant! I'm happy to help you sort it out! And welcome to the plant fam!! Glad to have you here 😊🥰

@TashiaPlants 2 года назад

Ooohhh I saw one of these in Lowe’s once. I’ve regretted not getting it. I thought it might have been a Hoya but I wasn’t sure😖😭 But it’s okay 😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I'm sure you'll find another one!! I have lots propagating now too ☺💕

@shasty6928 2 года назад

I'm convinced I have both in the same pot. It legit looks like two different Hoyas cuz some are long and smooth cardboard feeling and some are rounder and slightly fuzzy. I picked it up at a lowes when I first started collecting and it was labeled as a DS70. I wish I could post a pic here just for some more input on it. Thanks for the info🌱

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

It's very possible! Sometimes plants look so similar that growers confuse them and mix them up in one pot ☺🥰 You can always DM me pictures or email me if you don't have instgram btw 😊

@shasty6928 2 года назад

@@jaclynns.jungle ok, I'll do that :) I have another hoya that I'm not sure if it's reverted or two different hoyas potted in one pot that I'll send pics of as well.

@rosauralozano273 2 года назад

I love Hojas plant

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Me too 😊

@rosauralozano273 2 года назад

I love your videos

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I'm so glad you do 💕💕

@lisaadams5048 2 года назад

I have the one with the narrow leaves at lowes and it said DS 70 I would like to find the other one. Thanks for sharing

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

That's so bizarre. Most of those are usually the Sp. Aff. Burtoniae 🤷🏻‍♀️ it can be REALLY hard to tell, but the new growth shape is usually a giveaway, as well as how the leaves sun stress! I had to wait until both of mine were large enough to be able to distinguish between them. I could always tell they were different but I had no idea which was which until I dug into some research. Instagram doesn't help either because people will tag both names on the same plant lol.

@zackstertwart3340 2 года назад

Love it great video just got one just happy to have a hoya.

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I've been seeing them pop up again!! Very exciting!! You're gonna love it!! 😊

@zackstertwart3340 2 года назад

@@jaclynns.jungle I heard they can flower almost anytime what do you know about that is it true

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

@@zackstertwart3340 all I know is mine bloomed like MAD all summer and fall, it's just starting to put out less now, but it still is pretty much always covered in peduncles!!

@lvanasse2 2 года назад

Oh, so I supposedly bought a sp. aff burtoniae but it actually is a burtoniae!! So now I want the sp. aff burtoniae ;)

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

It happens, haha!

@thenelipotnaturenymph 2 года назад

Just got a beauuuutiful Burtoniae today, was doing some research, and came across your video. I am not disappointed! Had to go over to your Insta and give you a follow! I look forward more of your posts. Thank you for this video. Love all the planty knowledge!🪴💚

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I'm happy to help!! Welcome to the fam 😊🥰

@jennyvertley5936 2 года назад

Those are both Hoya sp aff burtoniae. Meaning they’re both species related to the true Hoya burtoniae, but aren’t burtoniae. They’re both from Costa Farms. They grow differently and even have slightly different flowers. They’re not bilobata, nor are they DS-70 like they come labeled at the Big Box stores or even some plant shops.

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

The Burtoniae wasn't purchased from a big box store, and it's not from Cosat Farms

@jennyvertley5936 2 года назад

@@jaclynns.jungle I saw! You received it from your friend and I watched her Hoya Collection video. She has both Costa Farms Hoya sp aff burtoniae.

@sherryporsch9349 2 года назад

The one in the hanging basket is the one I found at Lowe’s last year. I won another one but not sure if it’s the same? The biggest difference I see is the dark margin an leaves are rounder. Always watching videos 😍

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Happy to help ID them if you send me pictures 😊💕

@sherryporsch9349 2 года назад

@@jaclynns.jungle Hey, I know the one in hanging basket is the same as the one you have in HB. It’s the other one I’m not sure. I’ll send you a pic tomorrow when the light it better. Thank you Jacklyn 😀💚

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

No worries! Just curious 😊🌿

@Jameson77777 Год назад

Ct Home Depot’s have them now for $11.98 for the 6 inch pots. 😀

@jaclynns.jungle Год назад

I've definitely been seeing them again!

@cathybohn9137 Год назад

I was given a cutting that I was told it was burtoniae, but I've been wondering if it was the other look alike. It's a beautiful maroon sunstressed color, it's in my milsbo under lights

@desereesantillanes-torrez6823 2 года назад

Ok, so I do have the Burtoniae. I got it from Lowe's over a year ago. I have mine super stressed to were the whole leaves are purple.

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I'd love to see it!! The small hanging baskets that David found in Home Depot last year said Bilobata/DS-70 on it and his is the Sp. Aff. Burtoniae. Maybe even the grower got them confused 🤣🤣 some of the leaves can come in looking more narrow on it too, but what I notice most is how consistently rounder the new growth comes in on the Sp. Aff. as well as the way the leaves sun stress 😊💕

@ShelleyHannaArt 2 года назад

😍😍😍

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

☺🌿

@surgeinc1 6 месяцев назад

Love the Hoya and also purchased a Burtonaie labeled DS70. Is a strange looking specimen as it’s very healthy, pest free and growing. However, the old and new leaves are curled over to such a degree, the plant looks freakishly abnormal. I considered tossing it but will keep since watching your video.

@jaclynns.jungle 6 месяцев назад

Burtoniae definitely like to taco! Nothing you're doing wrong! 😊

@surgeinc1 6 месяцев назад

@@jaclynns.jungle Thank you so much for responding with that information. I’ve seen many questions about this issue but never a definitive answer!😇

@minhja4924 2 года назад

Hoya? What’s that ? Hahaha I think I have acquire about 30-40 since we last talk. I have repot all of them into smaller pot. I was using way too big pots for their size. Hahaha that does clean things up heaps. I have both burtoniae and bilobata. Now Can tell the difference ❤️😜👍

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

The Hoya addiction is real girl!!!

@minhja4924 2 года назад

@@jaclynns.jungle no idea what u talking about hahaha

@Horsewoman-pt2ku 2 месяца назад

So the DS-70 is the rounder leaf? That is what I purchased from Home Depot and was labeled as DS-70. Hopefully I got that right

@jaclynns.jungle 2 месяца назад

Usually, that's how they're labeled, yes. But technically, they're all sp aff burtoniae. The other names although confusing, I think they are just to distinguish between the different species that look very similar.

@salty_lizard 2 года назад

We have bilobata at our lowes right now, so I wanted to do some research. Random rabbit hole this ended up being 🤓***edit HOME DEPOT, not lowes

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Haha, honored to be part of the rabbit hole. We've all been there 🤣🤣 Also, I'm happy to answer any Hoya questions you still have 😊

@georginacampuzano6412 2 года назад

🥰🥰🥰

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Thanks for watching girl 😊💕

@theogstasimay 2 года назад

👋

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

☺

@joehisel5966 Год назад

Bilobata and ds-70 are two different types.

@cindyc 2 года назад

🤗❤🙌

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Appreciate you Cindy, as always 🙏🏼💕

@tonyamiller4956 2 года назад

😂 now I'm so confused because mine was sold as a sp. Aff burtoniae to me, and it just looks more elongated like your regular burtoniae lol!

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

They can certainly get more oblong, but overall they stay more rounded where the leaf meets the petiole. I posted to my community page some side by sides as well, I hope that helps! It's so hard to tell when they're not next to each other. It does help to sun stress it and see how it looks too!! I also noticed that the Burtoniae blooms are slightly darker pink, but it's nearly impossible to tell if you only have one and not the other to compare it to 🤦🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

@deborahvazquez5235 Год назад

So I still remain confused. What then is a bilobata and a ds70? Are those two other varieties?

@jaclynns.jungle Год назад

Yes!! But they're often mislabeled so if you see bilobata for cheap, its probably burtoniae.

@deborahvazquez5235 Год назад

@@jaclynns.jungle the one I have is labeled bilobata/ds70. It definitely has rounder leaves, they are fairly thin and “like cardboard”. The newer growth is rounded as well not cupped in any way.

@janice4512 2 года назад

😍😍😍😍😍

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

☺💕

@hanaaandsanaachannel 6 месяцев назад

❤💚👍

@sheliahuggins5721 Год назад

Am I not right to say one of them has like black margin?

@jaclynns.jungle Год назад

The sp aff will get pink and sunstressed around the margins, but the other one will come in with all burgundy leaves!

@rosauralozano273 2 года назад

Ola

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

Hi love!

@rosauralozano273 2 года назад

How you doing

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

I'm well, thank you 😊

@RoseTorn411 Год назад

I have the taco shape and it was labeled as sp aff 😑

@jaclynns.jungle 2 месяца назад

It likely still is, but there's variations, from what I've learned since making this video! True burtoniae isn't in circulation, so they're all just imposters 🤣

@im093 2 года назад

Hoya bilobata is a whole different plant and it's not either of the two plants you showed. Please don't correct misinformation with more misinformation 🙈

@jaclynns.jungle 2 года назад

OH NO ITS THE MISINFORMATION POLICE COMING TO CANCEL ME 🤣🤣🤣🤣 I didn't say either of them was a Bilobata... quite the opposite actually. Did you even watch it? Or just come here to complain? Make your own video about it if you don't like mine. Simple as that 🤷🏻‍♀️

@im093 2 года назад

Yes I've watched it. You showed a burtoniae and a sp.aff. burtoniae. Not a bilobata, however you started the video by saying "sp.aff. burtoniae, aka. bilobata, aka. DS70, they are the same plant" which they're not. That's all I'm saying. Nobody is here to cancel you and there is no need for you to be so rude and passive aggressive.

@emily-katec2165 2 месяца назад

Does anyone else think she’s got it backwards ? My affinity looks like the one she’s calling the real Burt (longer leaves, a little fuzz, tendency to taco.

@jaclynns.jungle 2 месяца назад

Hey, so technically "true" or real, as you say, burtoniae is not really on the market. This is just a way to differentiate between two species that look a lot like burtoniae. Hope that helps 👍🏻

@emilysneed6164 2 месяца назад

Both of those plants are sp. aff. burtoniae. There are apparently a couple different clones in circulation. The real burtoniae is NOT in circulation. The leaves can also differ dramatically on the same plant due to environmental conditions. I have a big plant that looked just like your longer leaf one, but I put it in a spot with higher light and now all the leaves are flatter and round, like your round leaf one. I also bought one that is supposedly the round-leaf clone, but all the new leaves are long and more taco-like! Please consider editing or re-making this video to reduce spreading Hoya misinformation.

@jaclynns.jungle 2 месяца назад

There's no need to remake the video or edit it. The information is still valid even if "true" burtoniae is extremely rare. I am aware that neither plant is "true" burtoniae, but there are still very apparent differences in the two. There's no harm in referring to them differently so as not to confuse people 👍🏻

@sandiesorchids9387 Год назад

So it's the H. Sp. Aff. Burtoniae in your left hand and what is the one in your right hand? The reason I am asking is that I think that I have both and I was told by a few different people that they were the same I didn't think so but I don't know enough about them to argue the point. So I potted them together but I might just have to separate them. If you want to look at them you can check them out on my Instagram and then you can give me your opinion. My Instagram is instagram.com/roxietortie.

@jaclynns.jungle Год назад

So here's the thing, they're both technically sp. aff. burtoniae, but that's super confusing for the average person, and for sellers and buyers. So the one with the flatter, rounder leaves that blushes more pink, is usually referred to as sp. aff. The other one that can be more burgundy, is usually referred to as just Burtoniae. Hoya elitists will say it's not "true" Burtoniae, but for the sake if not being confusing as hell, this is how most people have agreed to refer to them. I hope that makes sense!!! You're not crazy, they're different lol.