Huge Gaming Drama 

MOBILE USERS I GOT YOU CLICK HERE FOR TICKETS TO CHESSBOXING ► bit.ly/mogul_chessboxing

“We tried to give Mick as much time and money as possible” Press X to doubt

Mick didn’t deserve an ounce of the backlash, and I hope he gets his hands on those awards that HE won, he deserves them

I'm surprised that Mick hasn't sued for Defamation, since this has tangibly affected his career. He should easily win.

So Marty thought he could set someone off to fail, steal his work, not pay at all, blame everything on the one he stole from and then publicly shaming the person and trying to pay that person to uphold his version of “the truth” that is an absolute psychopath move and the worst possible person you can have in a management position. How can that guy still have his job????

Mick: Here are literal pieces of evidence proving that baseless reddit post wrong Bethesda: We have more proof... trust.

To clarify a little: The OST and the in game music were in different contracts. Mick was paid for the OST and was given his on time bonus. He produced 286 minutes of music for the game (double the contracted amount due to ID scrapping several suites, samples, etc.) but was paid for the contracted amount 142 minutes. The problem is THEY USED ALL 286 minutes! The suites, samples, etc that they scrapped THEY STILL USED.

Shoutout to Mick for not only keeping his head down to the grindstone but turning around and putting out some of the best engineering on some major albums in the meantime, dude seriously turned around and made some incredible projects even when people were doubting him

The fact Mick wanted to finish to OST is just proof of his legend status

This is not a gaming scandal, this is years of work and dedication from a profesional. It's a class scandal

Bethesda: This is a one-sided unjust attack against us Also Bethesda: Allows employee to make a one-sided unjust attack against someone else.

It hurts to see a musician on Mick's level have to go through such pain from public and corporate. Artists endure so much. I'm glad you made a video that has such a wide reach.

In the audio world, it can be such a battle to get people to realise the sound often needs to come last. A really good team will obviously communicate with the composer, listen and give them what they need in good time.

Why couldn't corporations have competent people? It's just so depressing to hear this unfold

My heart goes out to Mick Gordan. DOOM 2016 was my gateway into Metal, and seeing this skilled composer get thrown under the bus is fucking disgusting. He easily made one of the best OSTs out there under horrible management. I will always stand by him for his hard work!

As a fellow audio engineer, composer and sound designer... Mick is one of THE most professional and stand up guy in the entire industry.

the other reason OSTs are more work is because you don't necessarily write every song in a game to be a "full song" with an intro, bridges, chorus, verses, solos, outros, etc. Sometimes its just multiple loops that can flow into one another repeatedly until the player hits a certain trigger to change the music. There is a lot of extra writing and arranging to be done to turn game music into complete songs. This is also why the audio engineer can claim to be an artist on those tracks. Arranging and cutting together is more or less sampling, and that is a form of artistry, so it is justified, if not a bit scummy.

I work at a huge corporation, and this type of stuff runs rampant. Cant explain the blood boiling rage when even the tiniest percentage of this happens to you, and you're powerless against it. Imagine how badly he wanted to blurt all this out these past 3 years. Seriously painful.

I saw someone donate to Ludwig on stream asking him to look into this and make a Mogul Mail and Ludwig said he'd look into it off stream. Big props to Ludwig and actually following up, doing the research and posting a video. I've seen mentions of this incident here and there online but I never would have done looked into it all myself. Thanks for the video Ludwig. Go team Mick!

Mick is a lovely guy. I reached out to him via email and he responded within hours (despite it being close to 10pm where he lives at the time) and asked that I keep in touch. Wonderful fellow, definitely deserves better.

I hope we get an update on this. It'd break my heart to see Marty and Bethesda get away with this with no justice for Mick just by ignoring the situation. If we want them to be held accountable, we have to ensure they are.

As someone who used to work in the audio industry, I'm absolutely FLOORED that they announced the OST with Mick's name on it without Mick having at least intent to sign the contract (intent meaning he's verbally agreed and pending paper work, not that he mentioned he'd be interested but no terms were discussed). In the audio world that's literally a sueable offense. I came across these posts in the opposite order, and I went to completely on Micks side when Marty not only said that was what happened, *doubles down it was the right decision*. It was not. That could be the only issue and I'd stand by Mick on him never working with Id again. That's a big fucking deal.

Honestly, it's kind of crazy to me that so many people just believed Marty's Reddit post. Like, if the Big Company is getting a bunch of backlash because they've fucked up and aren't delivering on previous promises and then a corporate leader from that company very loudly and publicly blames an independent contractor with a spotless record for those issues.... how likely is it really that the corporate guy is being truthful?

Micks story is both heart breaking but also relieving to hear. The claims about him just not delivering never sat right with me. His GDC talk about the doom soundtrack is a major reason why I started playing music to begin with, and it was really hard to swallow that a guy that passionate and hard working could’ve dropped the ball.

I’m knowledgeable on music and can confirm making a separate OST is definitely a separate project that needs a contract.

Lud's journalism degree is finally helping him these days. This is so eloquently put together

If this is the whole truth, this is appalling. To think they dirtied Mick's name after they screwed him so hard- between the hate he received online for "dropping the ball," the sleepless nights, the stress of money being tight while not even getting paid, working on projects that don't even count as hours worked because DOOM couldn't get their shit together- that is seriously enough to kickstart depression in someone. I hope Mick is alright.

I'm sad to hear Mick didn't get properly treated here - I hope he gets the reward he deserves and we can get some proper tracks released.

No matter what, I will always be on the side of the artist especially in an industry like this. This situation is exactly what I always expected. Good luck Mick.

Props to Mick for not committing homicide

I'm so disgusted by this company. That's so ruthless to throw Mick under the bus like that. The lack of integrity on Marty's part is appalling and the exploitation that Mick had to suffer is heartbreaking. As someone that's been studying music most of their life and hoping to someday work in this industry, I'm horrified at the lack of standards and respect being given to such a talented individual. My heart goes out to him and I hope his reputation can be restored. Thanks for the update on this, Ludwig. Having information like this in such a digestable and concise format really helps me personally keep up with everything going on. I really respect the work you do on this channel.

Marty : Writes the op-ed in an hour saying why Mick sucks. Mick : Proceeds to take 2 years writing a Game Of Thrones sized op-ed on why MARTY SUCKS. #JusticeForMick ✊

I had to re make a company sound track 4 times because of the same thing that they just wouldn’t give me any ideas of what theme they wanted so I had to use my imagination. So unbelievably frustrating and that was peanuts compared to Mick. I applaud the patience and dedication this man had.

"Just hold the hate internally" is my favorite piece of advice I've ever heard on the internet.

This is one of the times ive watched a Mogul Mail and felt disgusted and genuine sadness towards the situation. I hope it all gets resolved and Mick gets the happy ending he wants

It would be quite nice if in the future you could include links to the article you're referring to, obviously not all the reddit and twitter posts as that was be a pain in the arse, but the main article in this. Makes things easier

As an editor and cinematographer, this entire story hit me so hard. Lessons you'll learn in this field: people are shitty You'll have a product shipped early, get ghosted for a week or two, then last possible minute be given a list of revisions. Always always always have a contract, and when working with big names, hire a creative-industry lawyer to assist making that contract. Big companies will always attempt to find a way to cut corner and fuck you over. Make sure you're protected.

100% team Mick on this one. You made some good points. As an audio engineer, I know Mick could've made better edits in a week than were on the OST. I've also had these kinds of clients and it wears you down. Had they communicated with him, we could've had one of the best OSTs to ever exist, but I believe they screwed him over because they were jealous of his success and weren't willing to pay him. They deliberately compromised his workflow in order to be able to blame him for things he had no control over. They screwed him over a second time, when they announced a product with his name on it, when he wasn't even informed and had no contract. This was either mismanagement, or another attempt to blame him later so they wouldn't have to pay. The most important piece of evidence regarding the soundtrack that gets overlooked, is that the audiofiles have metadata on them. You can see exactly when a project was made. They started working on the OST well before they contacted Mick about anything. The dates in these files show that Marty lied in his Reddit post. The statement Bethesda made wasn't any better than the Reddit post. They claim Mick has "mischaracterized and misrepresented the team", when he had stated, multiple times, that he in no way had any issues with anyone on the team. The issues he had were mismanagement and the fact that they tried to blame him for everything to ruin his reputation. He mentioned Marty, but he only said he was hard to work with. If Marty said the same about Mick in his Reddit post, which he did, how on earth is this a misrepresentation or mischaracterization? (EDIT: To make my point more clear: If person A finds person B hard to work with, than surely it is not unlikely that person B finds person A hard to work with.) The most hypocritical part of their statement however, is that they blame Mick for "harassment and threats", when the Reddit post they posted first had the exact same effect on Mick; which is clearly evidenced on social media. And Mick specifically stated multiple times that he did not want people to harass or threaten anyone, which is the exact same thing Bethesda is saying here. How is that any more inciting? From all of de evidence I've seen, it is clear Bethesda is lying to mislead people. It's shameful and I'm glad you've brought some more attention to this with this video!

Another important thing to note is that Mick brought up the OST contract to Bethesda in January, but nothing was signed on until two days before the game's launch. 2 DAYS. This means Mick literally had about a MONTH to work on AND finish the agreed music for release. That's absolute crunch insanity.

“Hey, did you know you have rights?” -Ludwig

Thank you for covering this, it's incredibly unfair what's been done to Mick, and they deserve so much better for the unbelievable music they created

Mick Gordon is one of my favorite composers in the industry who created two of my favorite video game soundtracks ever with Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal, reading his statement about the awful treatment he went through for seemingly no reason is heartbreaking. The fact that despite the crunch and disrespect he received, he still made one of the best gaming soundtracks ever goes to show just how talented of a person he his, I'll always support him and I'm glad you and other people are covering this story

Ludwig! mate you missed some crucial tidbits: - The music that mick imagined and was rejected, for the ingame scores, was most likely used up as well, mick mentioned that Id/Doom used twice the minutes used and never paid him (the contract said any extra music used will be paid for). He only found this out after the game's release. (for the reader: in game scores are pieces of music that are chained together inside the game software that reacts to the current situation and actions e.g. fight music, platforming, sneaking etc) - Any music that makes it to the game or OSTs, has to be approved from Id's side, specially by Marty since he was on that Approval board. Mick was PAID for the OSTs contract, which means Marty approved those. The thing mick isnt paid for (till this date), is the extra minutes of ingame scores. And early on, they werent paying mick because they just wouldnt approve the music on purpose which later they used twice the amount of. - Mick was not allowed to hear the final versions of the OSTs that were released nor was his approval or feedback required as per the contract. - Chad did not compose or create his own music for OSTs(it sounds like that in the vid), he used the ingame scores that Mick had provided and he did a terrible job stringing them together which was noticed early on as 'mick made bad music' on twitter. This is the reason mick is upset at Chad being attributed in credits, also there are few tracks of OSTs that Mick made, and Chad only renamed the files and got his name credited. My own speculation: Marty probably was never going to give Mick the contract for OSTs, as he had Chad make it from the ingame scores way ahead of announcement (shown from the 6 months old dates in metadata from files that Chad sent to mick after mick got the contact) because the scores were already made by mick, hence they could use his name and mick only got the contract from Bethesda by going behind Marty's back and asking Bethesda for a contract himself.

Being a person who really respects art and also a creator, I find it really offensive when someone takes your art and profits from it and then does what Marty did! Edit: Hope Mick comes up ahead on this!

I have to say it's been very heartening seeing everyone talking about being so understanding about all the industry specific details like why you can't just take music from the game and release it and why you can't work without a contract etc. Really nice to see that.

11:07 Another difficulty is that game music is intended to loop, and often has elements that are tied to gameplay. For example, you might have a drum track that starts playing and looping only when you have half HP. You not only have to master the track differently given that there are no sound effects, you have to construct a piece of music that’s satisfying to listen to out of a bunch of loop pieces that are meant to fit with gameplay.

as a musician (of metal mostly and as a fan of Mick) myself I'm sad to learn of all of this drama i hadnt previously been made aware of. It's difficult to write, mix, and master quality music on a deadline. And on top of being made with a set theme and vision of someone elses design in mind? damn. my heart hurts.

I absolutely love this kinda content man. Please keep doing this

great video lud! please keep us updated on the situation I love the way you walk us through the facts 👍

As someone who’s been following this drama since day one, I’m glad this stuff is getting more mainstream attention

Really nasty situation. The thing that bothers me most is the possibility of many similar cased to this happening in the industry that were just swept under the rug

very concise, easily digestible coverage of this drama even as a longer, more information dense mogul mail. Thanks Ludwig.

Thanks for this update! Good work!

Love mogul mail, I wish one day we could see ludwig as co-host.

Marty Stratton started this by pointing the finger at Mick Gordon 2 years ago. Mick respected the time frame he was allowed before he spoke up and brought the receipts. A reverse Hellena if you will

This was such an incredible explanation, it was very clear and helpful. AND THEN THERE'S CHESS BOXING. You've got a subscriber.

I wouldn't have known about this without your video. Thanks so much for making this.

Mick Gordon's work on the most recent Monuments album is impeccable. Doom is cool too.

Mick: Yo here's a 53-minute audio thats prob most explained reponse to drama Bethesda: Hes wrong

I'm livid. As an upcoming game composer this hurts me so much to see. Mick is one of my idols. I hope justice can come to all who deserve it.

Man if I were in his situation where I was not getting paid for over a year and then suddenly gets hated online even though I have done nothing wrong, I might have took my life. Sh*t is just depressing man. Props to him for being strong mentally, I cant do that.

Waiting for atrioc to drop the exact same take on the drama

Mick Gordon is already a legend for making such bad ass music but working under so harsh work conditions and still pumping out some of the best metal of all time puts Mick on a whole other level

Appreciate the longer style video! Didn't feel like a ramble at all.

Such a great story teller, love listening to this even if I don't know anything about Doom. Really cool narration and has me wondering what's happening now!

For anyone wondering, one of the reason why it takes so much work to release the official soundtrack, specifically for doom, is that the sounds you hear in game are not songs. From what I understand, the game produces music in a generative way based on game play. The game has thousands of level specific sounds clips and instrumental riffs that are all triggered by specific actions or scenes in the game. The job he originally signed up for was to create these sounds and riffs. To make a soundtrack, the job then becomes to take these sounds then arrange and mix them to produce listenable songs, basically to compose music.

It always seemed ridiculous that Mick was being painted as difficult to work with to me after seeing his talks and youtube videos about DOOM and the extensive work he put into the music for both 2016 and Eternal. The vast majority of OST releases are direct albums of all the music used in game as it is presented but DOOM has arguably the best use of dynamic contextual music in any game and the care he puts into mixing all of the different pieces of a track into something that works on an album is so intricate. His GDC talk about the making of 2016 is one of the absolute best presentations they've ever had and anyone who hasn't already seen it should check it out.

Such a crazy episode of Mick and Marty

This whole situation reminds me of when I worked at a restaurant about a year ago. We had a promotional event going on where we gave out cards to customers with our names on them. This being used to get our names in reviews for the business. A 5 out of 5 review from them would get the customer a free ice cream. I did it because I enjoyed working their and I was a lovable guy. I netted over 30 5 out of 5 reviews (which would have equaled 300 dollars). Out of the blue the owner disqualified me, claiming I was paying people. I gave my two weeks the next day and after moving to my new job I learned that a mass exodus happened started by me. They temporarily closed for about 3 months looking for people to work for them. I have been at my new job for almost a year and I am treated with respect.

I’m so glad this all finally came out. Mick didn’t deserve any of the hate

Mick Gordon has always been one of the GOATs in terms of video game OSTs. He and his work has inspired people like Casey Edwards, who has made arguably some of the best modern video game music of all time (Bury The Light). I had always gave him the benefit of the doubt, as he has never shown malice or negligence in any project he has been a part of. Mick should be supported purely off of his talent, passion, and value, but should be especially be now seeing how he was treated by a titan of the industry. Mick has been a consistent legend who has essentially created a newly inspired generation of musicians that are making gaming music for many years to come.

Hope everything will go well for Mick :) Thanks for the insights Lud!

i love this channel. at the end of the day, this channel seriously feels like the only sane way to learn about internet drama

These follow up videos are so important. Thank you for doing them. It teaches us to be maybe a little more patient and give more compassion. Especially when it's a giant multi national company vs just one guy.

I fell in love with Mick Gordons music while playing PREY. Absolutely loved it. Man is the most talented game music engineer and composer in the world. I know that this kind of treatment will hurt and leave scars but I really hope that he can somehow put up his middle fingers and just move on from this cruel company and go somewhere else and make the next hit game hit even harder with his hard hitting hits.

I´ve made it an habit of listening to Mogul Mail´s videos as a podcast while I do some chores in order to always be informed of what is going on. Thank you for that. Hope your event is a success, will follow it from Barcelona, Spain! Cheers.

LETSGO Mogul Mail Podcast!

I'm only a few minutes into this, but I want to give props to the way Ludwig breaks this down. I watched Moistcritical's video earlier and he presented it in his usual style, but I think it set up a very "oh wow Mick Gordon is totally the good guy here" narrative and Charlie didn't go as in depth on the background like Ludwig did with examples of the OST audio quality. I know Charlie offers a unique style of humor but I think it's important to present these stories really well and Lud deserves props for the effort he puts into these videos.

Ludwig and mogul mail should move in together

Thanks for finally making this Lud great video 😌

The fact that mick is still willing to go back and fix the OST for the fans says enough tbh

Mick deserves more than the 100,000 for what he has gone through

As with most drama, i didn't even know about this until you covered it here. Feel so bad for Mick, unreal that he worked for so long without getting paid, that could be life-changing in the wrong way man. They treated him so poorly, seems like he did his best with what he had ❤️

Got kinda worried you were taking a break from these videos, I really do enjoy these more calm and I guess educational type of videos

Good thing that ur spreading this since you have such a big fanbase, hopefully it ends well for Mick

As an audio engineer, i know it can be very difficult to get paid, get information and details, etc. And it's expected that established companies would be a bit easier to deal with, and it doesn't exactly work that way. Hope it works out somehow for mic

Thanks for cliffnoting that document for me. I started reading it and then saw how small the scrollbar was and thought "Oh, this is like... a _read_ I'm signing up for."

Its disgusting that while Mick was very neutral, rabid fans read that reddit post and decided they wanted to destroy the life of not just one man but his family. Those people can go crash and burn. That is inexcusable behavior over a soundtrack.

Marty was ready for a fight, Mick was ready for a war.

Thanks for keeping us up to date with everything that's interesting Lud!

I love how Mogul Mail is just the philipdefranco of gaming and nerdy shit

Someone might want to start a crowdfunding campaign for Lawyers for Mick, he’ll probably need it soon.

Bruh even the music that Mick wasn't proud of still slaps as hell. Pun absolutely intended.

you know its crazy when mogul mail has an editor and isnt a one take

My jaw dropped several times during the sparknotes version of Mick's story. I am severely depressed hearing what this poor man has went through. Ridiculous.

The long form was so engaging I didn't even realize it was longer than a normal mogul mail, well said once again

Hope it goes well for Mick. Sounds like his story has a lot of truth to it and I can't even imagine how tiring the last three years must have been.

As an audio engineer/ music producer, this hurts. Can’t imagine working in that environment.

LUDDY DOING LINES I SWEAR TO GOD. HE'S PLAYING WITH HIS SCHNOS ALL VIDEO

Marty: heres a reddit post that destroys your career Mick: I have collected receipts and have enough proof that it has enough words to count as a full book that can shatter your company thats the TLDR