the reason we only made it to 12km on earth is because the tools ended up melting so deep in the ground, since mars has a cooler core it might be possible to dig deeper, plus the earth borehole was made almost 30 years ago so im sure we could do better
It's also just gravity. Pulling a rock up 12k takes a fair amount of electricity and cables have length limits from their own weight. I'd expect Earth drilling tech to go much deeper on Mars, but we'd only be able to use it after we already solved manufacturing heavy equipment there.
Apparently a new company is trying to mine deep holes for geothermal with laser, should be faster than using a drill since they wouldnt need to swap the head every 20-50 meters
@@ericsmith6394 The rock turns into a slurry when it's ground up by the head and mixed with your drill fluid, as you pump in more fluid the slurry is ejected out the top of the hole.
Gather every single chia pet ever made would be a nice start to make those greenhouse effects. They can grow under any conditions. Great episode by the way.
@@kayakMike1000 Also too much UV X-ray Gamma and particle radiation since Mars lacks an atmosphere thick enough to provide any protective effects. The more amusing bit here is that photosynthesis doesn't increasing greenhouse gas concentrations as it builds off of fixing inorganic carbon and water into organic matter.... Poor Chia pets will freeze into icicles irradiated icicles sublimating away under low pressures if they don't starve to death first. Alas terraforming plans fail to account for the by far number one factor in Mars's loss of atmosphere low gravity means low escape velocity which means a sizable portion of the Maxwell velocity dispersion exceeds the Martian escape velocity meaning even without having to deal with the solar wind you still can't build up an effective atmosphere long term. Mars is awful so unimaginably awful that it makes Venusian cloud cities seem much more promising in comparison but then again everywhere else is even worse. Chia pet aren't going to do well there either but at least there they will actually still be useful....
To be fair, Saturn's moon Titan has gravity similar to our moon, but an atmosphere as thick as Earth's, Mars's issue is not being able to shield against solar wind, hence the mention of building a Solar shield at Mars-Sol L1 Lagrange point
Being a retired open hole wireline engineer, it would be so tempting in the future to air/co2 without water can cool the drill bit… drill 4000 meters which is doable, then conduct induction density logs to see what the soil contains… then there all the borehole cuttings that can also be analyzed… someday
@@Ryan-mq2mi it gets really hot that far down. The rocks start to act more like taffy than a rigid substance. Mars is expected to have a hot center too but maybe not as close to the surface as Earth
Why in the world do you, and everyone else, keep talking about terraforming Mars ? Mars doesn't have a strong magnetic field. It can't hold on to an atmosphere period!! Sorry, I'm just tired of hearing about it 😅
I was always told that Mars doesn't have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere. So even if you could transport enough materials to Mars, it would bleed out into space
@@LezArtist5iG Nope, nothing to do with the low gravity. It's because Mars has a weak magnetic field so the solar winds just blow the atmosphere away. A strong magnetic field would act as a shield ✅
At least drilling 12 km deep on mars would be a lot easier than on earth due to lower gravity and thermal gradiant. Does kinda through a wrench into my "blast a giant hole into mars" idea because the bottom would fill up with water.
@@Yutani_Crayven exactly ! who knows. I'm wondering what temperature it's actually at down there. It could be very hot and turn to steam when released. 🤔 Warming the place up, might be a good thing!
Wow this episode is full of subjects that I have an idea about. Regarding the possibility that the Milky Way and Andromeda might miss each other instead of colliding in ca 4.5 billion years. In that case the probable near miss of the two would probably result in extensive gravitational interactions especially since I seem to remember that the outer edges of both galaxies are already experiencing gravitational interactions. This could cause each galaxy to still experience a starburst period, similar to, if possibly less intense, than when they would have collided. It would also probably result in disturbing the shape of both galaxies, possibly resulting in both of them losing their spiral shape and turning into elliptical galaxies. I also think it would be likely that given that Andromeda has more mass, the Milky Way would lose a substantial part of its stars to Andromeda. Lots of scenarios for astronomers to check with simulations and research. So cool.
Let see, no calculations given, no models of anything disrupting - just speculation it might/could happen. Meanwhile MW and Andromeda are getting closer, their far outer Halos are merging already, the 50+ minor galaxies around MW are mostly headed inward, and probably the same for Andromeda - so what is there there to disrupt the collision?
With the lower gravity on Mars, wouldn’t drilling be much easier? Lower pressures and lower temperatures should mean we can easily reach depths that would be challenging on Earth.
@seabeepirate, Idk what is required to drill a hole "x diameter" on Earth to some ~12km but the issue is far worse on Mars as I see the logistics of getting equipment there to do the actual drilling, as one of the biggest problems to start. Is this even going to be a manned operation or strictly robotic.... It already takes several minutes just to send/receive signals. Here on Earth it's a lot easier because not only are we already here and we can breathe the atmosphere etc., we already have an industrialized society with all of the required infrastructure to support our normal and explorative activities. We don't yet have anything established on Mars, just some "RC rovers."
About the L1 Mirror thing... Personally,I would make that into a craft swarm that will capture Solar Wind at all four L points. And also Collect Solar power and project it down. take that solar wind and use it to actually augment your Artificial Planetary Magnetic Field. As the space all of these will hold will be effectively larger than a planet, Even if that wind is faint, they'll be able to catch enough to ne useful. That would be more about protecting what is there, rather than actually add in things... now, We can also just have a habitat swarm over Mars. It can be solar powered and share power via lasers, with the extra being directed to the planet, Or a designated Second sun satellite. this will act in a manner that is simmilar to the greenhouse effect. a CO2 molecules has a color in the Infrared soectrum. in a thin atmosphere, That makes it more likely to cool the place because any time a CO2 molecule catches energy, the color that is reflected out is of heat. if there are few CO2 molecules around each other, what one reflects out, will mostly miss the other ones and will be project out. but at great enough concentration, they constantly reflect it between themselves. thus keeping it around. Like those crafts catching solar power and share together and porject down.
@@bobkoroua I was about to use solr sails in this, but that would actually make it worse. But here's what is already possible; First, What Satellites already use. Small engines, Ion or otherwise, to correct position every now and then. Second option, Which is actually my favourite... Centrifugal force. you have your craft with spin gravity. at the right times in the spin, you let it stretch, or pull it in hard. or rather, and the Bottom(in the spin gravity frame) you have like ropes with weights. these basically stretch down. And you have them in all directions(Spin gravity is all around, you know) If you need to go to that direction a bit, you pull on it. If you need the other direction, you let go. In this sense, as long as you have a direction to go toward, Each one will be both pulled on, and laxed, depending on it point in the spin compared to said direction. This way you don't lose mass with time.
I saw something within this week stating that the Milky Way and Andromeda have already started colliding, something about the galactic halos or something. I thought we could find lava tubes on Mars and the Moon, seal them off with airlocks or some type of pressure seal, and Bob's your uncle.
I always thought that Mars doesn't have enough gravity to hold onto an atmosphere. So even if you could transport enough materials to terraform Mars, it would bleed out into space
Solar shield for Mars can also be a power station, communication relay, deep space telescope, etc. Each of these projects would have astronomical price tags, and even combined as one would have an astronomical price tag, but far far less than each financed individually. Let's face it, each project makes the bigger project (Mars) easier (except the deep space telescope-- that's just looking past JWST).
Was really looking forward to our merger with Andromeda and all the shiny new stars we would get. The possibility of that bright future being thwarted by a mere dwarf galaxy is almost void inducing. 😳
@GadZookz, not that you're speaking literally given that "if it would be billions of years before they merge", none of us would be here to enjoy it but what I wonder about is, if we as a civilization are already concerned about NEO's impacting Earth our Moon etc, what would the gravitational effects be of an entire galaxy intersecting with ours not to mention bringing with it planets/stars/asteroids which COULD impact Earth, our Sun or any other planets/objects within our solar system/galaxy.... The other thing to consider is they're placing both the potential collision of the 2 galaxies in a timeframe near to our Sun exhausting it's fuel supply somewhere between 4.5 to 5 billion years. At that time it's expected the Sun could expand to engulf Earth. If civilization is even around then and nothing else changes, it sounds like it could be potentially disastrous.
@@zenithperigee7442 It might be a good thing though. Since we are going to be forced to leave Earth anyway, the merger with a larger galaxy could give us a lot more stars within striking distance than we have right now.
Any idea how complex and massive the drilling rig for 12km depth on Mars would be? Who should fund this crazy adventure? And I see the space base on the surface, again - there is no chance of survival on the surface due to radiation peaks and micrometeorites.
I think drilling on Mars would be easier than on Earth. Our crust is so hot that, along with our higher gravity, just a few km down the rock starts to experience enough heat and pressure that the rock starts to exhibit plasticity. In some of the deepest mines in the world for example spaces deep down tend towards filling up over time. For deep drilling, it's an immense issue, as you have to continually keep the channel open. The heat, in and of itself is also a problem if people are involved. So yeah... You'd be able to drill/mine a lot deeper on Mars with relative ease. And seriously deep on the Moon.
Surely, the time between now and the final merger of Andromeda and the Milky Way is long enough for some other, better, name to catch on than the dreadful: "Milkdromeda".
The Mars is less denser than Earth that is why the highest volcanic mountain in the solar system is on Mars and water can go so deep drilling would be easy.
1. Noctis Labyrinthus -- 7°S, 93°W. 8.7 trillion gallons. At the west end of Valles Marineris is a feature called Noctis Labyrinthus, which is in the heart of the Tharsus region. The coordinates are 7°S, 93°W. There is a relict water ice glacier there which holds 36 billion tons or 8.7 trillion gallons of H2O; slightly larger than Lake Meade at the Hoover Dam near Las Vegas, Nevada. The canyon is 4.35 miles deep, which provides twice the atmospheric pressure: 12.4 millibars, compared to 6.1 millibars at the datum level. The 3.75mi. high canyon walls provide good protection from cosmic and solar radiation. Noctis will enjoy a mild climate, as it is only 258 miles south of the equator. 2. An even larger, 48 cubic kilometer glacial ice sheet has been discovered in the same region, which which translates to 12.67 trillion gallons of water, which would be twice the size of Lake Champlain in Vermont. That is 45.5% larger than the relict glacier noted above. Together, these two sources of water represent 81 cubic kilometers of ice or 21.4 trillion gallons. 3. Medusa Fossae Deposit -- 5.6°N, 147.8°E 92.54 Quadrillion gallons. Mars Express orbiter, as of January, 2024 has discovered a giant ice deposit over two miles thick several hundred meters below Medusa Fossae on the equator of Mars. Spanning a 13,000 square mile area with an estimated 56,000 cubic miles of water, or 92.54 quadrillion gallons. this deposit would fill the Red Sea, or flood Mars to a depth of two meters.
What we need to do is get some offshore deep oil drillers, probably with a rocky work/family life. Send them to Mars to drill for us while Aerosmith makes a song about them.
I've heard of this nano-tubes terraforming idea before, didn't you do an interview about it for a NIAC project or something? Anyway I have my reservations about the asbestos atmosphere idea ;)
Isnt it easier to drill on Mars than Earth? Mars has 38% gravity and around 1% of the pressure of Earth. I am not sure, but I would think that we could dig 12 Km down alot easier than here. What do you think ? 🧑🔧
What makes digging that deep difficult on Earth is the temperature. Mars is a lot smaller and thus might be cool enough at that depth for such a dig to be comparatively easier to achieve on the planet than here on Earth. That's purely speaking on the physics and engineering/material science side. The logistics of getting (and operating) the necessary equipment over there is a separate question.
Just so you get your Rubin optical terminology right: light does not “bounce off the primary mirror again“ - you are correct to call the inner annulus the tertiary (3rd) mirror. Even though they are on one structure, they are two completely distinct optical surfaces. Cheers!
Forgive the question, but what effect on Mars’ temps would blocking the solar wind (and hence sunlight too?) have? Wouldn’t that counteract the whole ‘trapping sunlight to warm the planet’ argument?
The reason Mars lost it's atmosphere to the solar winds in the 1st place is because of it's weak magnetic field. And it's only getting weaker !! There is absolutely no point in discussing terraforming Mars ✅
The limitations on drilling depths on Earth are from temperatures (the increasing heat as the drill reaches closer to the hot magma welling up from below) and the weight of the drill stack (the 12 Km of heavy steel pipe hanging down from the surface. A drilling rig and its substructure have to be able to lift and move the weight of 12 Km of that steel pipe - Not an insignificant task at all). The fact that Mars subcrustal layers have already cooled down over the eons and the much lighter gravity negates to a great extent those two factors limiting the depth a drilling system can reach. I suspect a Rig on Mars could reach depths of 25 KM or more before reaching its overall limit. Just a thought.
Hope they are doing QC checks on each step with Vera Rubin's build to make sure everything is set to the correct specifications, Let us not repeat the Hubble build issues.
For anyone who hasn't seen a livestream, I saw my first one a few weeks ago, posted a question in the chat about Dark Matter, and not only did Frasier answer it - he put it in one of his future videos. Most legitimate questions get answered and there's hardly any trolls. If that doesnt sound like fun that's good lol. There's plenty of things to troll out there. Anyway it's a unique, cool experience and I recommend you check it out Sept. 2nd
There is no liquid water on the surface of Mars, maybe beneath, (even though there seems to be evidence to suggest recent water flow channels on the surface) but isn't there frozen water at the poles? I think terraforming is the way to go. It might be a pretty inhospitable place to live, but if we have shelter, oxygen and water, then the foundation for life is there.
5:30 - So basically what you're saying is, we need to send all of the 1980's Hair Metal bands to Mars, so their profound use of all the hairspray, rich with CFC's, can help Terraform Mars. Shouldn't be a problem, I don't imagine they're busy atm! :D
With the lower gravity of Mars the deformation/plasticity of the upper crust would put the drilling depth on Mars proportional to the deepest drill hole on Earth well below the depth of the water. -- Not to mention all the engineering and logistics needed to begin the process.
Having nanoparticles all over the place like that would be incredibly hazardous to health... I did a lot of courses on nanomaterial safety and the main takeaway was "it depends, but pretty much they aren't".
It has been taught since I was a small child that Andromeda together with The Milky Way & a handful of “Dwarf Galaxies” will merge to form a permanent “Local Group” that won’t be torn apart by dark energy. Then the David Grusch, Ryan, Graves & David Favor Congressional hearing happens.
Mars' aquifer might not be inaccessible for research/use. Mars' crust is cooler and thicker and Kola was stopped because the ground got too hot. If there was a decent chance of finding life down there, and the water were useful for maintaining a base, it'd probably be a worthwhile mission.
The reason that they stopped at that depth on Earth was because it was getting too hot and it wouldn't drill anymore because it was like melted plastic. That probably wouldn't be the case on Mars because its core has cooled much more than on Earth.
So the bor hole you speak of was actually built a long time ago. The reason we stopped was because of the gravitational pressure and heat. We easily have capabilities to drill this deep today(there’s just no reason on earth to do it.) we wouldn’t have a problem on mars that is if we are ever able to get there.
8:15 I noticed you didn't mention the fact that the VIPER lander is already massively over-budget, but also that it is NOT ready to launch. It's software is incomplete and needs millions more to be a functional rover. If they launch it in it's current state, it's no better than a chunk of mass they proposed.
digging on Mars will be easier than on Earth because of the lower gravity and thus less weight of the rock surrounding the bore hole, ground pressure will increase more slowly with depth, so we should be able to drill 3 times as deep on Mars as we can on Earth.
question for the question show when it's back: if our moon was spiralling in instead of out, how long would it take for it to go from hitting the roach limit & debris from it starting to hit the atmosphere? days? months? years?
Thing about MilkDromeda is that we know the Milky Way has already had a dozen or more galactic collisions already, so even if this one doesn't come off we're pretty wall covered.
To be fair, drilling a deep borehole is easier on Mars. The lower gravity means lower pressure at depth and as far as I know, the earth's heat also poses a significant challenge to deep drilling operations.
Actually, 11km is well within the drilling technology range on earth. Furthermore, on earth, the limiting factor is deep-ground heat, and mars is cooler not only on the surface but per depth as well. Russian deep-well techniques could totally tap that subsurface water. FWIW, earth has massive subsurface water / hydro-mineral deposits that exceed the volume of the surface seas as well. You get the surface temp up a little, let loose the big water fountains (because deep water will gusher too), and spread-seed photosynthetic lichens/mosses, and you have your breathable moist (and water-vapor greenhoused) atmosphere on mars in a relatively few years. There are microbes that will eat the perchlorates. You finish the job eventually with chunks of Triton's nitrogen ice, chopped into small pellets and rained down from low orbit.
the underground water at 11 kms below the crust is probably super-heated and pressurized. if the drill makes it at 11 kms, the water will easily push up to the surface,
Si la vie s’est réfugiée dans ce lac souterrain (sous-martien plutôt 😊 ), les 12km qui la séparent de la surface jouent un rôle de bouclier contre les radiations solaires. Aurions-nous le droit de détruire cet écosystème? Très bonne chaîne, Frasier! Continuez!!!
Would it be "easier" or harder to dig deep on Mars than on Earth, due to weaker gravity ? (allowing for the fact getting actual fuel, equipment etc is way harder lol - but as far as the physical work)
Regarding the Q&A shows, it would be helpful if you began the video title with "Q&A 265" or whatever number you're on, because when it's at the end of the title we can't see it in the videos list, it's cut off.
There's a vast enough amount of water ice quite near the surface -- highly extensive at mid latitudes, and there's at least one large alpine glacier near the equator, covered by sulphate salts and volcanic tephra (from relatively recent eruptions at a caldera complex).
If we somehow had managed to cover Mars with a kilometer deep ocean collected, somehow, from water deep inside the planet, would we not then had a lot of cavities inside the planet, where it earlier was water?
@@doncarlodivargas5497- First, to clarify I'm not saying the surface water ice is sufficient for whatever sort of full terraforming project, but rather there's enough easily accessible (relatively speaking) water on the surface for human purposes, short of that. I wouldn't think of that subsurface water as being in enormous voids necessarily. More a lot of little voids and porous rock -- and also convecting in hot areas, being heated and squirted up along permeable zones and deep crustal fractures, rising and cooling, then sinking.
People are asking why should we terraform Mars, if we can't even fix the Earth. I think it would be smart to learn terraforming, by trying out on Mars first, before we fuzz with the only ecosystem we have. Unfortunately, we will probably have to fix Earth first before we can even get to Mars.
Science reporting is no picnic. Drilling a 12 km hole on Mars vs Earth seems doubly challenging. But realize that it was the heat at 12 km that stopped the (Russian) drilling project. That wouldn't be the case on Mars. Alas, our beloved reporter can't "drill" into topics with that level of detail. So, with respect for our undaunted reporter and with a nod to the limitations of the format, hopefully we can abide with the constraints of science reporting.
A major problem with terraforming Mars would be the necessity to recreate a magnetosphere. Otherwise any atmosphere and hydrosphere we recreate will again be stripped away.
This is what really irritates me. These scientists know that the solar winds blew away the atmosphere on Mars because it's magnetic field is so weak !! And it has only become more weak with time. This is why it's pointless to even talk about it 😞
10:50 when the galaxies collide, it would birth new stars. So if they miss and collide further out it would help lifeforms deep in to the future with the dying universe.
Hypothetical question - if we drilled down to Mars’ underground lake and then left the hole open to the atmosphere, would the water then sublimate until it reached a stable pressure? The water vapour in the air would be a greenhouse gas, heating up the planet. Could this be the simplest (ha ha!) way to terraform Mars?
One thing I haven't seen discussed in relation to the Mars water discovery - how does this compare to Earth? Earth also has a lot of water in its deep rocks. Is this comparable to that? Earth has a lot of deep geological water in its mantle, and this is in an equilibrium with the surface water. The oceans don't drain down into the mantle because it's already as saturated as it can get. If you were to somehow pull all this deep geological Martian water to the surface, it would cover the planet 1-2 km deep. However, would that water then in short (geologically speaking terms), just percolate right back down into the rocks? Or in other words, what are we seeing here? Are we seeing old Martian surface water that has been soaked up into the crust? Or are we seeing the deep geological water that existed simultaneously with Mars's ancient surface water, surface water that has now mostly been lost to space?
Were not calling it Milkdromeda anymore Fraiser, it's Lactomeda. The language took a vote and we've decided that astronomers are not allowed to come up with names anymore
not to say specifically for your comment, but a lot of "naive" terraforming proposals sounds like "fixing world hunger by just giving food to everyone" or some kinda of thing that breaks some thermodynamics/economics laws The problem to solve is not to imagine one of the many ways that it could happen, but to think a way that it couldn't NOT happen like of course we can end wars by every single person in the world just magically turning into pure beings of love, but such thing it's not likely to happen/unstable configuration, unless you find a way of making such state to not just be stable but likely, you can't have for example a method that makes 1 person lovely by creating 3 evil demons, or that requires offloading the evil to some central entity
@@LucasFerreira-gx9yh If you consider corpses to be beings of pure love, all wars are over if all human beings are transformed. War is a human activity.
@@ylette oh, sorry. i did come across wrong... 😅while i was having some fun with the idea, i don't want to deter any of such kind of probing and inquiring 😃!
There's still one big problem remaining with terraforming Mars though (well, maybe that's an understatement), that I never hear mentioned, unless I'm misinformed? - there's simply not enough nitrogen on the planet to support Earth-based life, and the only reasonable solution for that would be to import it via asteroids. That seems... tricky.
Terraforming Mars: "You just have to set up a big factory..." I do get pedantic about this, but the number one issue with in situ resource utilization on Mars or the Moon is energy. People hand-wave this issue way, but it is 100% the deal breaker from where we sit today. Look at the energy utilization of any manufacturing or mining operation here on Earth. People generally underestimate the energy requirements of these types of activities by several orders of magnitude, and that is here on Earth where the environment is only passively trying to erase us. TLDR- Developing industry-scale power generation that can feasibly be built and maintained is key to any off-planet habitation.
Just curious, but how far away do you think we are to building a self-contained nuclear power plant that produces enough power to run an unmanned, or remotely manned, drill site? Maybe a manned crew to land and set it up, then leave. In my opinion, it's not the technology, but the economy that is the biggest hurdle. though I could very well be wrong. Edit: Drill site to dig for the rocks to be crushed into nanoparticles, not to go 12km deep.
@@stevenwojtysiak6392 I am not a nuclear engineer, but have designed earth-bound machines for use in mines and other tough environments here on Earth. There is a reason that mining machines use diesel power whenever they can. Underground they often use electric power carried by power cords as thick as your calf. powering a NASA Moon or Mars base can be done with near-existing tech, but at great expense. RTGs such as the rovers and the movie Martian rely on isotopes that are costly and rare on a nuclear weapons program level. Mining on an industrial scale will require hundreds of megawatts. Aluminum refining plants on earth usually have a collocated full size power plant. Making steel from iron requires vast amounts of oxygen and carbon, along with more megawatts.
@@stevenwojtysiak6392 Not sure if my bigger post will be allowed. Let me know. Issue with nuclear is it requires heat exchange (those big cooling towers) in space there is no air or water to facilitate that heat exchange.
@@Miata822 several of the rovers were nuclear powered. Many hospital instruments are nuclear powered. There are pacemakers which are nuclear powered. You don’t need big cooling towers, and with the current temps being rather chilly, you’d likely just need some cooling pipes that transfer heat into the ground or surrounding thin atmosphere
Use a deep deep crater and drill from the basin floor, to shorten the distance to 4 km Hellas Planitia Crater on Mars Hellas Planitia is a plain located within the huge, roughly circular impact basin Hellas located in the southern hemisphere of the planet Mars. Hellas is the third- or fourth-largest known impact crater in the Solar System. The basin floor is about 7,152 m deep. Hellas Planitia, due to its depth has higher airpressure which could be expended upon if you turn the floor in a figantic open pit min to extract valuables while at the end you have added a few kms of depth as the base for building a colony under even higher airpressure WHILE having access to deep water reservoirs.
How would Mars and Venus be different if they had swapped their placement in the solar system? A larger planet with more atmosphere in Mars's location might have kept liquid water longer.
A number of years ago a breakthrough in transparent materials was made public, in the form of ALON, or "transparent aluminum". I was curious, with the improvements in three d printers, is it possible to manufacture ALON parts or entire machines using a three d printer loaded with the ingredients for ALON?... Just askin', is all, for...a friend.😀
