I had a Near Fatal Incident - GriGri Slipping 

Yea, the problem was you were belayed by a GriGri and not a person. I'm surprised you willingly took a second fall.

I'm confused why the belayer wouldn't have realized what happened after the fact, especially if they were sure there wasn't a huge amount of slack. 10m (more?) of rope screaming through your belay device in a second or two seems like it would be easily noticeable. And then they would be paying closer attention to the brake hand the next time. Quite a confluence of events though.

I think there's an opportunity to throw in a few more variables here. The cam engaging is dependent on: The rope providing enough friction throughout its contact with your cam to defeat the spring. A skinny rope = less friction and less likely to engage the cam The position of the brake rope and the weight of the rope. The position we usually keep the rope in makes feeding easier by avoiding kinks; if there is no method to even mildly slow the rope from going into the device(the brake hand), your cam cannot engage. Could you test this with a sandbag and a belayer belaying while kneeling/sitting? This means that there's only so little weight of the rope actually pulling down and might have similar characteristics to running out of rope.

I really appreciate this video, it couldn't have come at a better time for me

I don’t know. I think this is poor engineering by petzl. That’s not even bad grigri belaying technique officially, and is extremely common to see people belaying that way. IMO petzl overlooked this engineering fault in their testing and this is a major design flaw.

It’s easier to point out to beginners, seasoned climbers are the worst, they won’t be told and presume because they haven’t dropped anyone yet that they never will. You see it on professional climbers vids all the time, Pros with really bad habits that they don’t even cut out the video.

@@kevedwards ondra without a helmet is the biggest coming to mind right now

The grigri is problematic because its function is too much of a black box. The mistakes that can happen with it can be in odd ways that defy expectation.

My climbing instructor told me exactly that, "don't worry gri gri auto locks". Such a shame (for him) that I learned more about security here on ben's channel than from a "certified" instructor.

@@Rankidu It's more of a shame for the others he teaches who don't follow channels like this one, and for their climbing partners. This won't affect the instructor until one of his past pupils kills someone.

Exactly. This was just the result of improper belaying.

Yes this ancient news needs to be repeated regularly.

You are absolutely right that the belayer absolutely needs to hold the rope at all times. No questioning this. But what I am questioning is why the hell should I buy a belaying device that's supposed to be "automatic" and should prevent these exact kind of accident in any situation when it can't do a better job than a Megajoule or similar things, which cost a fraction of this? I never liked Grigris, they are expensive, heavy and you can't see what the rope does inside.

@@dereinzigwahreRichi the belay device engaged like it's supposed to do, you can fault the producer only if it didn't engage at all, this is 100% human error for 3 different reasons

@@mauriziom989 but isn't the supposed advantage of the Grigri, that it should lock automatically even when the brake hand is not on the rope or the belayer is unable to react? When he is it by a rock or something e.g.

in fact it was

I was mad for a bit, but this kinda stuff could happen to many and I'm super happy to share the stuff I discovered due to this.

Though imo the belayer should know if many meters of rope slipped through the device

@@sylvernale my thought exactly. How do you not notice this like what

@@HardIsEasy I’d have been mad too but as much as I’d hate to be the guy who fell, I’d hate to be the belayer more. Honestly I don’t think I’d be able to live with myself if I’d caused someone’s death. Which is why I watch your channel!

Yea was a fun ride :DD Now I'm ready to try some sky diving :D Or Rope Jump stuff you do...

Only then he would've never found out what happened, right?

I'm surprised the same poor belay technique was used for the test fall

@@stevePHXD Maybe someone provided a back up and he just didn't mention it.

It’s even crazier that his belayer still did the same shit!

I watched a gym staff member use the “tunnel” method for TR belay on an ATC yesterday, where you loosen your grip on the brake to slide up the rope. Unbelayvable, as they say

Yes!!! Exactly!!! Maybe it would help if pro climbers started to lead by example!

@@somanayr And? Of course you use the tunnel method, because the hand is always on the break side of the rope and if something happens, your instinct closes your hand and tada, you hold the fall. The other, older methos, always switching hands is a fuzz. It takes MUCH more time, it is annoying, there are so many more moves, which mean the chances of something going wrong is bigger than with tunnel method. I suppose you refer to the method of switching hands being the method, because the break side of the rope is (should!) always gripped firmly, 100% of the time and with tunnel methos, it is NOT. Fair enough and I get the point. Anyway: much more "complicated", annoying, time consuming and because of many more "moves" and therefore more time stress, the total chances of some imperfection when executing is way higher than messing up something when using tunnel method. Of course when using a tube and in situations where there may be less friction in the system, you have to be careful at all times. Which is the natural state when belaying anyways! If it's not, that person should not be allowed to belay because your live lies in this persons hands and that is a no joke.

@@haveawonderfulday279 Ondra 's belaying technique should be illegal

i'd prefer you held the brake side

Holy shit dude, thank goodness you're ok. Thanks for sharing.

This sounds more like bad communication and no commands between you and your belayer.

@@Palek83 have to agree , should be fairly obvious not to keep giving slack if your are unclipping. Should have been yelling commands especially when you are both not familiar with each other

Whenever I need to take tension off the rope when lowering to clean I yell stop to avoid this situation. It does sound like this was due to belayer inexperience but extra communication never hurts

I was lowering someone at the gym and as they got close to the ground the rope went a little too fast and burnt my brake hand, causing my hand to reflexively let go and drop them the rest of the 2-3 feet onto the mat. No harm, but it scared me. Now I make sure to never apply any friction with the brake hand, and always use only the lever to adjust the friction (and usually wear a glove on top of that).

little nitpick : the word "electrocuted" implies you died

@@Splatpope No it doesn't you absolute zoomer tool

@@SplatpopeNo it doesn't

"Electrocution is death or severe injury caused by electric shock from electric current passing through the body. The word is derived from "electro" and "execution", but it is also used for accidental death." the right word is "electrified"@@MrAsddasdasda

Nono, let's do half of that again... well "in my mind"

The exact moment you give slack is also one of the highest risk moments for falling....

@@skicreature You should still hold on to the brake side of the rope always. Just like with any other belay device. If you look at any of GriGri manuals or their video instructions on how to use it this is always the first and most important step of operating the device (and applies to every belay device I have ever used) If you actually hold onto the brake side the device will lock. Even with skinny rope and being directly under the first bolt. Obviously as pointed out in the video the problem comes from the fact that most of the time it will lock even if you don't hold on properly so people can learn bad habits/get lazy.

@@doikor that’s my point though is that with the grigri even when you hold onto the brake side the device does not always lock if your hand is in the wrong position the device only reliably locks if your hand is below or in front. If your hand is to the side and back and introduces a curve into the rope then it does not lock. Furthermore as the rope tightens when your hand is in that position it can actually block engagement of the cam. Now I think typically this is still rare requiring the right thinness of rope with right kind of stiffness. But if everything lines up correctly and you need to give a lot of slack while using a grigri and your climber falls I think there is significant risk. You can mitigate this by keeping your hands in front of the gri gri and only feeding out slack slowly but that’s not ideal for lead climbing.

@@skicreature You don't need the GriGri to lock to catch a fall though. The GriGri basically acts like tubalur device when the cam doesn't lock. You can weld the cam in place and it will still be safe to use if you use proper belaying. Thus there is no need to worry about whether it locks or not as it shouldn't matter if you are belaying properly.

@@zhanchi8727 No you can't. I've seen a belayer melt all the way through his leather belay gloves trying to hold a fall with the cam held down. There is not enough friction like there is with a tubular device.

Mammut you mean. Then why not just use an atc? So much simpler...

@@pirminborer625 the grigri is made by petzl. There are numerous reasons why someone would want to belay with an abd like the grigri vs an atc.

@@pirminborer625 atc doesn't lock. In case the belayer fails, the risk of an accident is much higher.

​@@svr5423if you hold the dead rope in the breaking position,it locks.

Not automatically, that’s the point. If you’re climbing outdoors, a rocks falls and you are unconscious, the atc won’t stop a fall. A grigri LIKELY will

@Vegan Pete ground happens. But it could lock maybe

@Vegan Pete you need to use both hands sometimes to give a slack though. But there’s Revo which would lock automatically if detects rope moves too quickly and should work without holding the end. Still, you are stuck on top of the wall, if there are only two of you climbing

That's why some people use the grigri upsidedown: the exit angle is always perfect

@@jordigrau83 Probably makes feeding slack more difficult though

yup. Petzl suggest you can use this grip if you want to depress the cam with your thumb to give slack quickly, but also tells you to return to your normal grip afterwards. Normal grip being, holding the break side of the rope below the grigri with your whole hand. Holding it like that the whole time is not recommended.

I nearly dropped my friend when he fell while giving slack. A design that fails when you give slack means that the design fails completely.

​@@skicreature You don't need to use that grip. It is only supposed to be used sparingly in special cases. While this technique is being used, they are not protected from falling(which is the reason why it should only be used in special cases and should not be the norm). When given slack normally, it will brake normally as well.

@@jort93z Problem is : it takes a while to go from the "normal" holding position to the "hand on grigri" position. You have to move your right hand up the rope and into the right position. So if the purpose is to give slack instantly with little to no anticipation, you will naturally tend to keep your hand on the grigri as shown in the video.

@@melkorWTF but then give slack the "normal" way and your right hand automatically comes up where you can easily switch to giving slack in the quick way by pressing down on the cam. In case of emergency, let everything go except for the rope in your right hand and pull it down.

Starting with position, the derivatives go acceleration, jerk, snap, crackle, and pop. And yeah, higher derivatives like jerk make a difference in the perceived intensity of a force.

sudden

Belaying is not super complicated. Takes a few hours to learn how to give and take slack and not be overwhelmed by watching nthe climber and handling the rope. Sometimes there are situations where you have to address a specific situation by giving a softer catch or even a harder catch (maybe a ledge). But the most important thing is to always stay focused and keeping the hand on the brake rope. Long story short: It's not rocket science. Just build good habits and you will be fine for 99% of all climbing situations. Maybe don't get into super sketchy climbs shortly after you started belaying 😉

@@audiojck1 Ill keep this in mind! I'm learning how to belay in a gym and will practice belaying on smaller walls first and go from there!

If the belayer had been using an ATC-style device I imagine the outcome would have been very different....this video probably wouldn't be made.

Absolutely. But hopefully this video will provide some education and encourage personal accountability.

100%! What in heavens world! Are you kidding me!? If he decked, that would be her fault, and her fault only, not gri’s!

There was a belayer problem, but it's a frighteningly common one when using this device. I don't let folks belay me with a Gri Gri anymore. I think they are shockingly bad. There's better products that don't require blocking the cam to lead belay and would be far safer. So this IS a Gri Gri problem and more should be aware that they're not as safe as other lighter, and all metal devices that don't require blocking the cam to pay out slack. Gri Gris need to stop being the go-to. There's safer, cheaper, and lighter devices.

100%. Rope hand is always below the gri. Also, the lip is not for holding but only for directing the rope downwards

Have you ever had the Revo’s breaking mechanism kick in on a fall that the belayer didn’t catch fast enough? I like the idea of the revo but it’s hard to find real life data on how quickly it catches/how far the climber falls before it does

I was in the gym yesterday and saw a belayer belay with a grigri in a way where he pulled on the rope below the grigri to take out the slack, but then immediately fully let go of the rope, catching it somewhere higher. I'm not comfy with people using the grigri or mammut smart to belay me anymore, to be honest. especially indoors.

@@sonaivanovicova7638 You should always trust your belayer regardless of the device they're using... Grigris and Smarts are perfect belay device for both the climber and the belayer when used properly.

Were the conditions similar to what he shows in the video? Eg your hand was on the device to possibly give slack and the rope arced through without catching? This is a good explanation video, and I’m curious other peoples’ experiences and the specific conditions of what causes the gri gri to not lock up.

Thanks Isabel, I'm actually happy to discover this in this way so now everyone can know :)

In that case I would have to many videos with the same name :D

I'm quite fond of my grigri. But the first time I went climbing outside I bought a micro jul, simply because grigri doesn't support twin ropes.

@@svr5423 My mates and I love our Megajuls, simple passive mechanical beauty. Depending on the climbing day we are doing, we choose our device accordingly. Always fun to play with different gear 😁

I have a friend just like this too. I asked what they thought of the various passive ABDs and to them the GriGri is the answer for everything :/

Exactly. Our gym showed us both methods. Unfortunately, they had another issue: I was repeatedly told to give more slack, let the rope loose and jump up with the fall while my climber was clipping the first and second express. I'm sure had the climber taken a fall, he would have impacted the ground.

Vertical World Seattle chooses to charge for Gaswerks method, and will not let you take the lead test if your default is the recommended method. This gym also didn't research auto belay companies and dropped someone off the ceiling... soooo trying to find a different gym and get a refund on my punch pass.

Gyms should ONLY instruct the Petzl method or not allow the gri-gri, I now know not to trust anyone who was trained with gaswerk method.

nah...it was a female belayer and he likes females and climbing

@@feelinghealingfrequences7179 Who doesn't?