I'm sure no matter what is in this video there are still gonna be people talking about how obviously the Grigri is the problem and body belays are the best kind of belay. Regardless, this is a great video and there's a lot of good info here.
Very interesting !! I really like your videos. One parameter that would be also good to add is how easy it is to give slack with those devices. Because it can also be dangerous to not be able to give slack when your climber needs to clip very quickly. I switch from the GriGri to the BD Pilot because of this and I feel way more comfortable with it. The BD Pilot is so simple to use that you can not do some mistake (ok, except if you dont hold the breaking rope). But with the GriGri, there are dozens of mistakes you can do to make it go wrong... 😁
Hi Ben, might be good to add the ATC to the testresults. There will be beginners who interpret the video incorrectly and after watching so many potential flaws on auto tubers, will go on buying an ATC.
I actually originally had more talking about each device including non-assisted tubes, but cut that out of this video and gonna ad that to the follow up in the future. I hope that it's obvious that ATC is as risky as it gets and if beginners don't understand that their teacher did a bad job :)
I hope you can get your hands on the Petzl Neox soon! So far it seems like a really promising device, and i would be excited to learn about the physics behind it, which i cant fully grasp yet. Also, i'd love to see these same tests done with the AustriAlpin Fish, which is the Belay device i personally use, to see how it compares to the smart and Jul.
Is it possible to provide notes on the physics of the 'grigri' devices from the previous film or explain their functioning principle using those objects as examples? I am writing an engineering thesis on grigri, and the more notes I have, the better I will be able to address the issue.
I imagine you could do a lot of that on your own, if it's really an engineering thesis... wouldn't your professors get critical if they saw you didn't do any of your own engineering work?
My work involves finite element analysis as its main subject. Using the finite element method, I will conduct an analysis of a grigri-type clamping device. Understanding the physics of this device will allow me to gain a better understanding of its operation. I will not include any of these notes in my engineering work; they are solely for personal purposes. It is a niche topic, and there isn't much information available on it
I'm late to this but I design climbing equipment and worked for years on belay devices including GriGri designs and know probably more about how they actually work than anybody (including the Petzl guys). My NDA's have expired so itf you haven't finished I might be able to help.
A note: As I already mentioned carabiner plays a big role in auto-tubers, and although only CT ClickUP / + requires specific carabiner, for the next video I'll try to reach out to manufacturers and get their recommendation on "the best" carabiner for their device. And then test everything again... :D A note #2: In some of my tests I inserted Trango Vergo incorrectly, but it's still nice to know that it worked well, but seems like I'm slightly too dumb to understand this "intuitive" design to load it properly all the time :D Also I received multiple emails stating other issues with Trango Vergo that I'll have to investigate for the follow up video. A note #3: Just received another email with a video demonstrating Jul2 slipping and not locking at all - and Jul2 worked in my tests so well :( So as I already said - there is always more to every story... and I see that creating a Rating table might have been not the smartest move of mine :DD
Hello, loved this video! I use the fish. Have you heard of it? It’s comparable to the smart 2.0 I guess 🤔 and it always comes together with its own security carabiner when you buy it. So far I‘m really happy with it :)
I have a megajul sport and it fails when the wire loop (i dont know how its called )gets stuck in the top off the screwgate in the carabiner, and its works as a normal belay plate, because it dont let the megajul get clousser enough to the carbiner to press the rope
Your suffering for science is appreciated, but feel free to use gloves next time - we will not judge you! Regarding Gigajul, I noticed quite a bit of carabiner dependence. Some are much better than others! Could you test that and maybe reply back? What seems to work well is the Edelrid HMS Strike FG.
@@testboga5991 I use the I use the Jul2 + HMS bulletproof Triple FG carabiner in the gym and the GigaJul + HMS bulletproof screw FG outdoors. so basically the same carabiner, and more or less the same as ths HMS Strike. I've noticed the GigaJul tends to slip a lot when it should be locked off. Like if I relax my grip, the rope will start slipping through.
I think that Jul2 also requires special carabiner - the steel one or Edelrid Booletproof (aluminium with steel insert), as it is not very gentle with alu ones. It can be also a safety issue.
I practice sport climbing, caving and canyoning for 25 years. Now with your videos I don't have to explain to all these people I meet (usually in sport climbing) that believe that their belaying devices can do the job in any case, that they have to follow manufacturers' instructions closely. I can just say: be careful; watch this guy's videos, respect human life. Congratulations for this thorough presentation.
Somoene recently told me that they liked knowing that they could take their hand off the rope "in an emercency" with their pilot. I love my pilot but assisted braking devices give too many people a false sense of security.
As much as we often like to pretend that our sport is always completely safe, the risks that come from possible user errors are evident and the consequences can be fatal. It’s important for us customers to be informed about products and for us climbers to know how to protect ourselves and the ones we love from unnecessary danger. Thank you Ben! Keep it up!
Thank you for your hard work Ben! For me safety is the most important thing while belaying. I always wanted to be not only a decent climber but also a good belayer, so once again, thank you! Btw. I think you should start wearing a helmet while testing. Your brain is priceless! ❤
New generations of climbers will be raised from videos like this while other climbers will understand why they are still here: they held the brake-side of the rope, Thank you for your videos
I've been using either a Jul or mega jul for a few years now and have a few comments on technique. You don't need to wrap your thumb all the way around it when paying out slack, pushing it to the side with your thumb or just using the pad (tip) of your thumb to put some pressure up on it is enough to allow slack to go through easily and will not put up enough resistance to hold the device open if the leader falls. The narrower the beam of the belay carabiner is the harder it will catch a fall, I've been using the bulletproof HMS locker for a while now and it's been a good match. The large round cross section lockers don't get pulled u into the notch as far and it can end up with a bit of slippage, not a drop, just a bit of slippage. It was neat to see the giga jul just slow down the weight and not fully lock up since these devices are marketed as assisted braking / friction increasing devices and not auto catching.
Hi Ben, your videos are great, I really appreciate them for scientific explanations made simple and understandable by all. Amazing quality. 👍👍 Thank you Ben 😀 PS: In case you want to suffer less, the use of gloves doesn't change the quality of the evidences.😉
Regarding your test results with the Gigajul. In the beginning I had exactly the same results. I tried several carabiners until I found a really good fit. the most important thing was that the upper carabiner axis is as narrow as possible. currently I use a Petzl Frenio, with this the Gigajoul locks pretty quickly and reliable.
The natural choices of carabiner to partner the Edelrid Giga Jul would be Edelrid's Bulletproof (with the steel insert to reduce rope induced wear) and the Strike. In my experience, the former is too large, and giving rope is a pain; the latter is better in that regard, and I believe that Edelrid itself sells this pairing as a set.
I have a quick question, in which mode is the GigaJul setup? I saw the yellow lever up... I don't usually use it as usual. Thanks so much for doing this video and also without globes, you're really brave 😆
@@HardIsEasy The tube mode ("manual" mode) can arguably still be useful. For instance on ifsc competitions the belayers may only use manual devices. The manual mode on the Gigajul can also be used for rappelling and it enables the guide mode functionality for belaying from above.
Great video, as always! Sooner or later you will have to make a test of different types of gloves, or your hands will fall off 😂 Also, I have always used the MegaJul, but I don't know if that's more similar to the Jul2 or the GigaJul 🤔 What do you think? Should I make some experiments myself? 😂
hi, fellow MegaJul owner here. I've tried "hand adove the device" experiment today, and was not able to replicate jul2 success with it :( when my break strand is perfectly parallel to the load strand it just sits there, providing no friction (like BD pilot in the video) and not being pulled down towards the carabiner. It locks if the break strand is leaning forward even a tiny bit though. My opinion is that it depends on where the center of gravity of the tube is - if the tail (lever) is heavy the device tends to tilt forward and is engaged. Jul2 seams to have bulkier handle, and there's less metal on the other side, so my guess it tends to rotate itself forward more than megaJul
I feel like the revo is so misunderstood, the assisted breaking is not ever supposed to engage except for those really catastrophic situations. Generally, it provides zero assistance and it's big selling point is it being an extremely smooth tube style belay
Exactly, I haven't used it extensively but you basically belay with it like a regular ATC-style device and the full lock-up is there in case you mess up or get injured.
@@Yildun28 No if you hold onto the brake strand, the device brakes on the friction teeth like a regular ATC and thus the rotating cam doesn't spin fast or engage at all.
I used the revo for a bit. I wish it were easier to engage the lock when someone was hanging. And I also accidentally engaged the lock when quickly pulling in slack which caused some headaches. With more experience that would probably go away or I could recover from it smoothly. Kind of hoping they can figure out a 2.0 with some improvements because I did love how smoothly it fed out slack
@@belavandervoort I'd never thought about either of those situations! the first seems super annoying, that's my favorite thing about using a grigri! The second seems like it could be dangerous?
When we went to a safety course, we were instructed that with geometric locking devices the type of carabiner make a very big impact. Wonder how the results would be impacted by that!
@@HardIsEasy This is true, thank you so much. For example I went back and looked at which carabiner you used with the old click up, still my device of choice. And I believe you used the clickup plus carabiner, do you know if it is exactly the same?
@@TheDudeFromKalispell In my experience the clickup carabiners can be a little less likely to cause the device to lock than the thick stainless steel monsters we have lying around, but I don't know about the clickup plus. I imagine the increased diameter and circular profile jams the rope in a little tighter.
The Giga Jul slowly slipping is something I experienced myself (not while climbing, but while testing), though it depends on the rope and the carabiner. It's not really a safety issue in sport climbing IMO because it still slows the rope to a speed where hitting the ground isn't dangerous. However, if you thought you could rappel without a third hand, you can't do that with many ropes because instead of stopping you it will keep slowly sliding down if you let go of the rope.
The weight of the rope while rappelling is sufficient to stop you completely for most of the rappel while in assisted breaking mode with the ropes I've used. I rappel without a friction hitch while using the giga in this mode. I still tie a cat knot when going hands free for something. A double rope rappel has so much rope weight below the device that I just rappel in manual mode with a friction hitch backup; in assist mode it's a miserable, slow, annoying experience until you are 2/3 of the way down the rappel line for very long rappels.
Bought the Mammut belay device for a girl I was in love with to secure me. Unfortunately at one point when I fell she completely let go of the device and the rope. But to my complete surprise I didn’t hit the ground in a free fall but rather my fall got noticeable delayed and I touched down without a scratch. Needless to say that my investment was worth every penny. Needless to say that she wasn’t worth the trouble at all and I live single happily ever after
hi, fellow MegaJul owner here. I've tried "hand adove the device" experiment today, and was not able to replicate jul2 success with it :( when my break strand is perfectly parallel to the load strand it just sits there, providing no friction (like BD pilot in the video) and not being pulled down towards the carabiner. It locks if the break strand is leaning forward even a tiny bit though. My opinion is that it depends on where the center of gravity of the tube is - if the tail (lever) is heavy the device tends to tilt forward and is engaged. Jul2 seams to have bulkier handle, and there's less metal on the other side, so my guess it tends to rotate itself forward more than megaJul
Thank for the video and all the testing, I use the GigaJul always taking as much care as possible but after watching this I'll surely be more concentrated even when belaying, I would love to see the alpine up tested
once again very interesting! thank you...i use the Mega Jul and now I wonder if it would act more like Giiga Jul or Jul2, which were completely different!!
Same here, the Mega Jul is more versatile than the Jul2, but the geometry looks quite the same, so would be really nice to know how it would have performed in these scenarios 😊.
Great work! For your No-Slack fall with the Vergo at 16:25, you have the device facing the opposite direction as Trango instructs (the handle should be pointing at you, not away from you when attached to the carabiner, before you twist the device into a normal belay position. See the owner's manual). I don't believe it would fail this scenario if set up properly.
Other than showing which belay devices assist in braking in which situations the best, it mainly shows the importance of belaying correctly. One should never rely on the belay device, but rather have it as an extra safety feature in case you aren't belaying optimally. I think that is the main takeaway of this video.
Did you use the giga jul in the ( manuell) tube or autotube mode? I‘m curious, because i dont undersand, why the jul 2 perfomed so much better than the giga😅
Test #3 isn't relevant for the click-up, at least not for the situation described in the video, because unlike the grigri it doesn't disengage as soon as the tension is released; it stays "clicked" Also it's less likely to do something weird with your brake hand in the first place with the clickup, because holding the brake strand is the only thing your brake hand ever does, 100% of the time throughout the whole belay. You just hold the rope, the entire time, and simply and only do that, hour after hour after hour. There are no cam- or device-holding shenanigans that mess with your muscle memory
I have a BD Pilot and I've had really good experience with it. And what I like about it is the reliability and consistency. The device extremely rarely does something unexpected in my experience.
I love mine too, but I have had 2 instances where it had some issues. Both were caused by my climbing partner. One was leading in a gym and he didn’t flake the rope when he pulled it out, it was so twisted up that the rope curled through the side next to the carabiner and caused the rope to bind while giving slack. Other situation was the same thing, but outside. I need to make him flake his rope so that doesn’t happen again, and I’m sure that would happen with most of the tube style devices
Same here, using BD for 3y without any dangerous / slip situation. As said in the video - it's about experience and understanding the device, not about the device itself. Great video anyway!
I like mine, I can give and take slack really easily, but it doesn't lock up as easily or as firmly as the Smart. It's also harder to find the thumb release and sometimes I have to fumble for it. All things considered I think I prefer the smart.
I would say: don't get it. It really interferes with taking and giving rope. It's like riding a bike with training wheels on. Just leave your break hand where it belongs. Smart is amazing and Smarter is not really needed for belayers with some experience.
@@Nerazzurri87I don't find that it interferes much. Smart2+ is my favorite device, just so simple and with the Mammut trunk, it's easy to regulate the friction level. And while correct usage and safety discipline is always the most important thing, I always like redundancy.
I was hoping you would try also Alpine UP from Climbing Technology, the few guys I clim with only uses this device and we find it very versatile. (But I always use my Reverso as i find it very simple, so I know exactly what happens when I use it. No room for randomness if there is more or less slack while belaying). I guess it would have almost the same "bad" results than the Click UP but as we are pretty meticulous on the safety we never let both hand go while belaying, so we've never had any issues. It'd be cool if any of you guys have tried these experiments with the CT Alpine UP and would have results to share ! TY 🤘
@@HardIsEasy I was trying to repeat your test with the Gigajul but was finding it was locking right away with an older BD 9.4 dry rope in auto mode, however when it was in manual mode, it would slip more but still lock up before my weights would hit the ground. I'm surprised that you got such a different result with belay devices from the same company. Btw great video, loving this series of videos! :)
@@HardIsEasy I'm using the edelrid HMS belay carabiner with the steel insert, I'll play around with a couple other carabiners. I'm interested in how I can get the device to slip more like in your video
@@jbt561 I've seen other ppl commenting as well that it they had it slipping and after change of carabiner it got much better, maybe my carabiner was very not suitable for that device...
Great video! Finally a review of Hard=Easy about de GigaJul. I’m using that device, with a special Edelrid carabiner though, which eliminates the slipping rope problem (depending on the rope tickness).
I kind of wish you had added the ATC to your rankings when you were testing all the devices together - a friend of mine saw your previous video of the grigri fall and concluded that she felt safer using her ATC than a grigri because of it! So I worry that this kind of video, pushing all the assisted devices to failure, might be better with a little disclaimer that the ATC would fail all these tests! Anyways now I'm curious about if there's any way to make an ATC fail in guide mode. Also, I hope you get some belay gloves for whatever tests you do next, that was painful to watch - but thank you for the sacrifice for this amzing demo!
@@FlatOutFE No, I agree, I have one and use mine regularly (my gym ropes are thick and fuzzy enough that giving slack with a grigri is a struggle, and for multipitch stuff), and I like it. But even with perfect technique, an assisted device is arguably a lot safer for sport climbing outdoors where a rock could fall on your head and where the weight penalty and the capacity for using 2 ropes don't matter. And I certainly wouldn't consider it safer than an assisted device.
@@Blue-pb7kz , two ropes are safer than one. Helmets designed for side impacts are safer than those just designed for top impacts. Two carabiners are safer than one. Locking carabiners are safer than non-locking carabiners. In the end we all make compromises. The unfortunate thing is that most people now consider ATC devices as unsafe, yet they have served climbers well for 50 years.
These are great results to learn from. I believe we need to reflect on the manufacturers' design decisions as well. For example, I still feel really comfortable using the click up as it replicates the atc style of giving slack without touching the device and it performs great in experiment 2 which would be the most common situation in climbing. I am not too worried about such a grave user error in experiment 1 and 3 with myself. For experiment 3, it does give me pause, but as a belayer I would have to be completely incapacitated by a heart attack or falling rock for this to become relevant.
Use chain mail gloves. 😂 Thank you for this video. The proper technique for belaying is proven to work, meaning never let go of the break end of the rope and keep the rope speed under control at all times. However, I still make a point about the belay technique being the most important. I'd point out to your belay master class series, because it is really good. Another lazy belay technique is moving away from the wall to take out slack, and this irks me to no end.
With perfect technic all of them worked, but the idea is how resilient the gear is against mistakes. We shouldn’t but we all are doing them. It’s the same as in cars. We should just be careful because people tend to rely on this resilience and behave less cautiously. Had read some study where a group trained with grgri’s had made more brake hand mistakes then one old-school tubers.
as for stepping away, it's crucial in cases you need to take out slack quickly, but yes abused for the cases where you want to see your climber better, I have videos coming on these things hopefully soon.
@@HardIsEasy yes. Like in slab situations, but I've seen 5-7m away from the wall, it goes to show how lazy a belayer can be, besides the slamming and swinging hard into the wall. Good habits keeps the mind sharp.
There is no reason to ever have a no slack fall as described with a clickup. Just ensure the device is in the locked position, perhaps by manually locking the clickup, while holding the climber during a rest and unlock the device after the climber starts climbing again. Unlike the grigri the clickup does not unlock if the climber unweights the rope. Even nicer for top rope situation the belayer can easily pull in slack while the device is locked.
Pretty sad to see how my favourite device (gigajul) performs so poorly. Definitely still a safe device if used diligently, and its versatility for multi pitches and climbing doubles means I'll probably still use it, but I'd really like to see a more robust two channel device on the market. In my experience, it does feel like an assisted brake device, and not an auto-locking device.
I'm about 4 years deep into using the Gigajul as my primary device for rappelling and sometimes multipitch belaying, and I second your observations that it assists but is not auto-locking. The friction and performance are also very dependent on the rope diameter/slickness and the carabiner shape/material. Part of the appeal of the gigajul is keeping aluminum oxide dust from turning my ropes black, so I use a bulletproof HMS with it, but unfortunately that slightly triangular shape top bar and the slippery stainless steel insert don't lock up the rope as well as a skinny I-beam aluminum carabiner (which wear down quite quickly). I belay with the giga in brake-assist mode on multipitch sometimes, but I treat it as thought I'm belaying in regular ATC mode.
Yea there is space in the market for a better double rope assisted belay devices. I haven't tested all what exists tho yet... but Gigajul i treat with caution.
Hey Hey love the video. I use clickup+ for many many years now. At some point I discovered a method to give slack by putting the palm of your brake hand against the underside of clickup+. With this method you can give slack as fast as you want and as much as your arm can reach. And in a split second you can pull all the slack back because your hand is direct at the device. I would not recommend to always have your hand at this position, only for big slack giving (like Gaswerk-Method with GriGri). I would love to hear your thoughts about it and maybe test it again. Also I would like to criticize the method you test it with zero slack slipping. Because you unlocked the device. The scenario you testet was different. Clickup+ locked and stay locked, then the climber moved without me doing anything. In this scenario clickup would stay locked anyway. Thank you so much for your time and effort. love everything you do. greetings from Hamburg
Good point, I use the normal Clickup and I didn't think about it while watching the video but you're right : in the situation where it's locked, and the climber starts climbing again and falls, the Clickup would still stay locked because it needs an action from the belayer to unlock.
I think they have your slack giving method as an option in the manual or documentation somewhere if I'm not mistaken. As for safety yes if it's locked it's locked, but if you loose control before it's locked you might get my results.
Thx for all this tests! After watching this, I´m still a big fan of "Jul2", because it manages all the situations quite well while in addition have good resistance against dirt etc. and performs well with extremly worn ropes, because the mechanik is very simple. I did some tests like this over water with myself (belay myself in toprope and take a fall with no hands on the device) and ~90 % it stops me completely. The rest of the cases (diameter of rope too small, rope wet or frozen or just too new) I hit the water, but the speed was quite low, so I wouldnt expect injuries if the water is "true" ground. Even Grigri and Clickup failed in my tests, because if you belay yourself with no hand on brake side, the ropes are pointing up parallel like in your tests.
Of those devices I've tried the GriGri, Jul2, Pilot, and Smart 2.0 (without Smarter). This video pretty mostly matched my experience in that the Jul2 locked the most readily. It also had the strongest holding power after a catch. None of ~3 ropes I tried slipped at all even when I had slack ahead of my brake hand. The Smart would slip slowly with a heavy climber, and the Pilot would slip at a slow to moderate speed depending on the climber and rope. As for other things not really covered in/outside the scope of the video: The Pilot was the smoothest of the three assisted-tube style devices in giving and taking slack, the hook for the thumb works pretty well, and it was the easiest by a significant margin for lowering the climber in a smooth and controlled manner using the recommended technique by gripping the whole device. The Smart felt the least smooth/most friction-y in giving/taking slack, and the thumb hook didn't feel very secure. Lowering with it is just okay; you use both hands to push up on the lever since you can't really grab the whole thing, and it's a little hard to control that way. The Jul2 is fairly smooth in giving/taking slack. The enclosed thumb loop takes a little practice to get used to, since after taking slack you want to be able to get your thumb back in there without looking down. However, once I got used to it, I found that easy, and it's obviously the most secure thumb position compared to the other two devices. The last drawback of the Jul2 is that it's maybe the hardest of the three to smoothly lower with, but once I figured out a technique I liked (wrapping my hand around the tube, with the back of the device between thumb and index finger, with two or three fingers from the same hand in the thumb lever, with other hand on the brake strand to help modulate), it was fine. The Jul2 ended up being my favored device of the three for its catching and holding characteristics, although I wouldn't mind the Pilot for gym use because it's so smooth. Lastly, it's true that you are technically defeating the camming action when tilting the assisted tube style devices. However, I think the way you do that is still better than the way you defeat the GriGri's cam. With the assisted tubes, you push up with your brake hand. When a climber falls, your natural reaction is to clamp and pull down, which is exactly what you want to do with those devices. With the GriGri, clamping with your brake hand can be catastrophic if you're not holding the device and rope correctly. Anyway, I think these videos are absolutely excellent, and should be required viewing for anyone who's just taken their initial lead belay classes.
If I may, I would like to correct you on the use of the Edelrid JUL 2 please ! I used the GriGri and then the Edelrid Eddy for 20 years, and 6 months ago I tried the JUL 2 for sport climbing, and it is amazing when you know how to use it best ! To give slack quickly you don't have to override its autolocking system as you showed in your video ! You just have to slide your right hand holding the "safe rope side" far behind you to get about 1 meter of rope from your right hand to the JUL 2, and then bring quickly your right hand close / below the JUL 2... when you are about half way of this move / AFTER starting the move with you right hand, now you can give slack with your left hand to the climber very quickly without locking the rope in the autolocking mechanism !! Your right hand just need to move before your left hand giving the slack !! I use a 10,5 mm rope and it never locks with this method ! If you did not do the method correctly and you move BOTH HANDS IN THE SAME TIME to give the slack, then yes, the rope will lock automatically in the mechanism ! However if this happens, to unlock it very quickly and very safely, I do not recommand to use your right hand holding the "safe rope" and bring your right thumb into the dedicated loop to unlock the system holding the "safe rope side" with only 4 fingers ! Instead, I use my left hand (climber's side) and hold the whole JUL2 between the side of my index and my thumb and quickly pull it up few centimeters to unlock the mechanism, and in the same movement upwards, I "slide above" and grab the rope and give the slack very quickly... as long as I have already brought my right hand with the 1 meter slack of rope close to the JUL 2 (just below the JUL 2!! It's very easy, very quick, very efficient and very safe this way. Since I understood this method, I through away the GriGri and the Eddy, as there is no point of using another device. The JUL2 is much simpler (no cam, no moving part, no button), very efficient, very solid and durable (all steel construction). Amazingly safe and simple product, I really recommand you try it using the method I explain above.
And that's why we wear gloves for belaying. Thx for the high quality of your vids, the scientific aimed focus is so amazing, u're the GOAT ! But still, how brave you are to drive these experiences bare handed. Hope bruises weren't to itchy, take care of you and keep shining in the YT climbing game as in our hearts. Best regards from south of France.
Hi Ben, Thanks a lot for yet another enlightening video from you! However, I have 1 question: Please could you confirm in which mode you tested the GIGA JUL in? For all who don't know the device yet: The GIGA JUL has 2 modes: a "classical tuber" mode and an "brake assisted tuber" mode. You can choose between these modes by putting a "slider" into the corresponding position. Having these two modes in one device is a great thing for multi-pitch climbing: You can use the break assisted mode for lead belaying (at all pitches) and the standard tuber mode for rappeling and for belaying from an anchor point in guide mode. @ Ben: If you had the GIGA JUL in standard tuber mode during the tests, the results were in no way surprising, were they? In this case, it would be great if you could repeat the tests in the brake assisted mode and let us know the results in a follow-up video! Letting the device compete against the other brake assisted devices while in standard tube mode simply would not make sense to me and does not help me making a final judgement. Thanks in advance for your response. I look forward to it! Best wishes, Frieder
I started climbing woth a group of very experienced old guys and they usually use the italian hitch which is just a knot. Would be great to see it compared to the modern devices. Love your work and i use a device haha
The Italian Hitch aka Munter Hitch does not stop the rope from slipping. It's another class of belay devices. There's no safety margin in case the belayer lets go of the break-hand side of the rope.
@@philipp9604 but it kinda works even with hand up, and in this test he held on the brake rope just up the device, in this setup the munter hitch just works perfectly fine.
Great video. Hope this creates more consciousness and proper use of devices. I personally like the Mad Rock Lifeguard. It's spring is slightly harder than the Grigri making rope giving exactly the same as a tubular device. So there's no new method to learn and no mechanismi overriding. Thanks again.
20:45 the most important point is that one is familiar with the device. That's why I still use classic tube. I have never been properly instructed with another device, so I stick to what I know works for me.
I have not personally used it, but I know someone who does and it looks like it's just a Jul2, but doubled. So I'd image it works pretty much the same.
Bought the Jul2 because this video. Seems the best in terms of value and features/safety AND ease of use. I LOVE it, have had it for a few weeks now, gone belaying like 4 times with it now, it's very intuitive imo.
The devices are safe. Users being lazy, thinking it’s safe and automatic are the problem
6 дней назад
at about 20:30 you were explaining situation where device locks and then there would be a bounce which would unlock the device. I dont think that can happen with clickUP, and I think your 3# experiment was testing all devices in that situation (Lock device -> release tension -> free fall), while you manually unlocked clickUP... So 2 different tests IMO?
Great technical explanations of any available technology for belaying systems! I even didn't know most of them, since I'm used to belay with Grigri! What about a video testing Prograde autobelay system at floor level? I've tried on a climbing gym here in Italy, and it works quite great! Best experience of ever, by using autobelay! Regards Mirko
"So, assisted tubers are very sensitive to this angle." Yup, gotta make sure those potatoes always have their walkers around so they don't bend over too much.
Great video! It's very useful to know the limits and capabilities of the different belay devices. You showed that the gri-gri can be problematic if the belayer pinches the mechanism which could prevent it from locking. This is belaying right handed. I'd be curious if you've tested the similar thing if belaying left handed - but there, the common usage is to pinch the axis of the release level which does not hold the mechanism down. It seems that this method is actually better in this case since it should still quickly lock.
Very happy with the Jul2 results 🎉😂, must say though that for this device and the Giga Jul it is strongly recommended to pair it with the right carabiner as a wrong match will just make it perform way worse if at all. I use the Bruce Steel Triple FG for the Jul2 which although heavier has the added benefit of almost zero wear.
Yea all of autotubers are sensitive to carabiner choices, maybe brands should give a list of recommended carabiners. that work the best that they did tests with...
The JUL² also as any autotube device, is pretty unsafe when giving slack, meaning pushing the device up, most belayers let go the firm grip on the brake rope, and then nothing brakes. All needed to make a accident perfect then is a distracted belayer in that moment of unexpected fall.
This is brilliant. Informative, entertaining, personable - the ideal combination for a teacher. I’m going to post the link into my local climbing group. I’ve used many devices and never had a problem, but it’s great to know how it could happen. Because it only has to happen once to create a bad day. I’m going to practice belaying at home to ensure I have my technique absolutely nailed.
Firstly, amazing video, you're helping me to beat the paralysis of choosing an assisted device! However i would really appreciate one clarification: In experiment #2 "Fall while giving slack", all your footage seems to suggest most of the devices simply failed and dropped the climber. I.e. when you override the assistance and don't properly secure the break rope, it simply won't lock. But in the results table, most devices score at least a 3 (which I've come to interpret as "safe" but not necessarily comfortable). Can you explain the discrepancy between the footage and the results? Thank you so much!
Hi! First of all, I just love what and how you are doing!! Second, sorry for my english:) I have a question and I realy realy hope that I wuld get an answer. I started climbing with my wife and safty is criticaly important for me. I want to have one universal device and here is my problem. We loved how classic tubers works but they are not fully safe, then we got grigri BUT it has low versitality in future. So my guess its that the sweet spot is Ederlid Jul wicht is assisted but its a tuber. So.. my main question is: culd you finde some time and test Ederlid Mega Jul II? Its a increrible versital assisted tuber that you can use in many scenarios like double rope wich grigri can't do. It wuld be enough yo know is that any difrents in how it works compare to Jul II that you tested, because its looks very similar (just have 2 holes). Thats all, i realy hope that I culd get any answer:D
Hello, thank you for the great video :) I am a physicist myself and really appreciate your videos explaining things with physics behind it. Just one question: In the conclusion you say the ClickUp requires, in case of taking slack, the hand to go back to the device. But with which device will you not need to do that?^^
Actually I don't understand the scenario of "fall while giving slack". I use the mammut smart and my breaking hand is NEVER in an elevated position. My breaking hand is always forming a circle/tunnel around the rope (so I never lose the rope). To give out slack, I tunnel the rope upwards until my thumb is under the smarts lever. Then I pull the lever upwards, thus opening the breaking mechanism. With my leading hand I pull out the rope for slack. In several occasions, the smart instantly locked while I opened the mechanism with my thumb. Actually the climbers fall pulled down the smarts lever against the force of my thumb and it locked.
With the GigaJul, it's very important that not only the rope diameter is correct, but also the carabiner. If its too wide - like the one that i saw you using - you get slippage and poorer performance. It's definitely an issue but one that can be fixed very easily. Funny enough, I've had the best luck using my BD Gridlock. I had similar reaults using my Edelrid Bulletproof. Similarly problematic is using a carabiner that is too small. It requires a lot more force to release. Edit: removed a comment about not seeing people talk about carabiner size when i read a comment by you talking about that.
These experiments are about as valid as if I were a Martian. It's obvious that the person has no idea what they're doing or how to conduct a proper experiment. Their logic is so absurd; it's like testing a car's braking distance after removing the tires. Please, don't waste your time with such utterly incompetent individuals who grossly distort information and create opinions based on absolutely nothing.
I don't know all this devices. The last time I climb a cliff (in 90's in France) it was a 8 Device (Like abseiling) I don't know the name in English. It was important not to let go of the rope, it was necessary to hold it in your hand down ! With "self-locking" devices your vigilance is relaxed I think.
Hi Ben, I decided to watch this again as I recently lost my grigri and got a clickup as a replacement. I think there is a fundamental flaw in your experiment #3. Your hypothesis, or, your scenario, is that the climber asked for a block or took a fall, the belayer removed hands for an explanation and meanwhile the climber starts climbing and takes a fall. If that is your scenario than you need to repeat the tests with the device in locked mode, not unlocked. The big thing is that the clickup does NOT unlock itself like the grigri does. The clickup requires intention to unlock. Now, if you start in unlocke mode, contrary to you, I am not surprised by what happen at all, that was pretty much expected. You just ruined the reputation of a very nice device :(
You don't even have to overrule Grigri's locking mechanism to give slack. In most instances, it can be done by very gradually pulling rope through the divise. This requires some practice to develop the right sensitivity, but it's not particularly difficult. Moreover, by walking a step to the wall, this can made even easier (i.e. to give some initial slack, because if you try this method too quickly you are likely to lock the device anyway). This has worked fine for me
You can pull out slack as fast as you like as long as you understand what is making the cam engage. His previous video makes it clear how and when the Grigri's cam will engage; if there is no force on the break side of the rope, the cam will never engage. Even the meter or so of rope hanging down from the Grigri to the ground will generally have enough mass to allow it's gravity to generate the required force to cause the cam engage. (I am not suggesting you let go of the break side of the rope, but just pointing out that applying even very small amounts of force to the break side of the rope will cause the cam to engage in the event that there is a force on the climber's side of the rope). As long as the cam is not already engaged, you can pay out slack quickly while never having to press on the cam to stop it from blocking. The key is make the break side of the rope "weightless" - ensure there are no significant forces acting on it. Just slide your break hand down the break side of the rope the distance equal to the amount of slack you want to pay out. Then hold your hand up enough so that the rope's weight is mostly resting in your hand - there is no weight pulling on the Grigri. Then with your other hand you can pull that slack through the Grigri, as fast as you'd like. You never need to let go of the break side of the rope, ensuring that there is always enough force on the break side of the rope to cause the cam to engage should the climber fall while you are using this method. This method, combined with taking steps away from and toward the wall to take and give slack (as you have suggested), is more than enough to belay a climber without needing to press on the cam. Should the cam engage while the climber is trying to clip, then you will need to press on the cam to disengage it (using Petzel's recommended method). If you need to pay out more slack after disengaging the cam, you can return to the method I have suggested above.
While nothing beats experience and knowledge, humans are imperfect. Having a device that minimizes risk as much as possible employs the swiss cheese model: If one system fails, there are multiple backups.
The "problem" with tuber-based brake-assisted devices is two-fold. First, the tuber is an ingeniously simple device, so adding a feature to it invariable makes the device "less simple," more complicated. Second, it's usually not the assisted braking that becomes complicated, but giving slack. When the assisted braking kicks in while the leader is screaming for more rope, it's easy for the belayer to become flustered and resort to a dangerous manipulation.
To be honest, most time one is giving slack, you do not have to overwrite the locking mechanism (at least with GriGri and Jul, the two devices I have experience with). If you are “pushing in” the rope from the brake side and simultaneously pulling it out on the climber side, it works perfectly fine. Only giving slack _fast_ requires overwriting the locking mechanism. But you don't need to do this often if you are belaying with foresight (and some slack in the system at most times anyway). That greatly reduces the risk I suppose. Edit: Nevermind, I wrote this comment ten seconds before you started talking about this. 😂
I don't understand the part where UP+ in experiment 1 gets 5 points for "locking instantly" even though the weight falls all the way Am I seeing that correctly or am I missing something? Thanks
Really good information, thanks, we all apreciate your work. But I was expecting to see my belaying device, I have the Edelweiss Kinetic, that I think it's also sold by the brand Beal birdie. Is there any reason why you didn't test it or it's just not popular enough for you to test it? Thank you again for all your experiments and recomendations. Saludos de Argentina
Thank you so much for this video! It really helps me out as a Beginner! However I do have a question for you. Recently my gf and I started climbing in a gym and since we are beginners we only do toprope and no lead climbing. In our climbing gym we use the mammut smart without the smarter add on. No imagine a scene where my gf is climbing up, I start to take out the slack and now she slips and falls. What would happen if my hand is now to high? My assumtion would be that the effect would be a little different to the one shown in the video since there will be no fast acceleration/pull of my rope end because there is almost zero slack in the system when toproping. I would assume both ends of the rope accelerate equaly fast and then my hand would get pulled down into the device which would result in me pushing down the front end of the device and then create the "needed" angle in the rope for the device to lock, right? Resulting in some hand damage. But now what would happen if someone for some reason would let the rope lose out of shock in the same scenario? I would assume it would slip ALOT unit the rope end that the belayer let lose would fall underneath the horizontal line of the belaydevice and then again create the "needed" angle for the device to lock. What do you think? Would gravity be enough for the lose ropeende to create the needed angle or would it just endlessly slip? I hope this is understandable and I would love to hear your oppinion about it. I'm sure on this channel are alot of beginners like me learning from your vides that are just toproping in the beginning aswell, so maybe you are helping alot of us with your answer :D Maybe a followup second toprope video? :D Anyways, thank you so much for your awesome work. You are helping the climbing community so so much and we all have to thank you for that! Have an awesome day!
Hello, first.. I appreciate all of your videos! There is another device I Iike to use, but it is not much common. Anyway, if you are interested, I would be curious about a test with the Fish. It's like a smart, but for my opinion much better in handling.
