super well worded, i came to articulate something just like this! you live and learn and this seems like just the way to do it: without shiesty coverups
This video convinced me to order a product from this manufacturer without thinking at any time. This level of customer access, problem sharing, defect resolution and most importantly humanity of approach is absolutely exceptional. No product is perfect but from what we have seen here, Roman's level of professionalism is on a higher level than companies like Intel or Amd. Danke für die Produktionsbesichtigugn. Grüsse aus Tchechien.
Same for me. I bought an Artic Liquid freezer after they had issues and told Gamers Nexus to make a video about it and the DIY fix or to send to Artic. Oh and extended their warranty to 7 years. Now it's time for a custom loop and the am5 mycro die is on my list.
I was one of the 50 lucky people to get one of the IHS's. Can confirm it didn't quite meet my expectations, but I'm certain that TG and der8auer will make it right for me. This video, especially, eases my conscience and I appreciate it and your apology.
@sniperlif3 Even if it is, he is still taking the correct action. Once they figure out the cause even if it is user error they can make safeguards to make it less likely to happen.
I am not a hardware engineer but I used to be a QA Director and if I were to take a guess at the problem it is the height difference in the surrounding plastic mounting bracket.
@hayleyxyz Even if it were user error, it is better to get out in front of it. Also they have only shipped 50 products, so it's a good time to clarify this.
Manufacturing inconsistencies of the plastic surround. Maybe even thermal expansion of the surround especially if different manufacturers use different plastics from each other or from batch to batch or different ranges of motherboards. Plastics generally have a significantly higher coefficient of linear thermal expansion than metals.
yea, definitely the first thing that comes to mind. Given that the plastic is there just to keep the CPU from wiggling around, and the height of the plastic don't really matter, i think the tolerance for that piece of plastic is probably really high, especially on the height measurements. But for direct die contact like this, just a fraction of milimeter is very significant. But oh well, it's just my gut feeling. good luck finding what's wrong with the thing i guess.
If you're considering the surround as a possible source for any contact inconsistencies, you'd have to consider motherboard mounting as well. Inconsistencies on motherboard mounting torque could induce some bow into the board, possibly standoff height differences, especially with heavy GFX cards mounted in slot. Only way to test would be to mill out the contact with the surround so you have die contact only, throw on some springs and adjust for equal torque all around. But who uses a torque driver? I'd prefer it rather than bottoming out on the surround. Yeah, you can crack a die, but some testing and proven torque specs would be fairly easy to accomplish. What's the point in making a precisely machined piece to leave the torqueing to peoples fingers??? I have a lot more finger strength than my 19 y.o. kid, seen yesterday as he couldn't unspring the force on a fishing swivel to attach a lure and I did it with ease. Food for thought! I myself would get a torque driver for precision!
Thought of that as well. Everything super accurate, his framers/IHS whatnot, the CPU PCB and silicon as well, then there's the plastic CPU socket frame which is just meant to hold the pins and also position the CPU in X/Y plane, and roughly in the Z plane. Injection molds also wear out and can lead to bigger and bigger dimensions, or additional flashing on various surfaces that have gates sprues vents ejection pins etc.
@@WildRapier Except the sharpie method is actually more accurate than a torque driver! That's because torque relies on friction, and is a proxy for stretch.
I worked in injection moulding ( plastics ) for over a decade. In my experience plastic parts can have a larger variance than you would think.this can be caused by humidity, cycle speed of the machine, set up of the machine, the amount of recycled material being used in the run. All kinds of stuff. Basically never count on plastics being in spec to the same degree as cnc metal. start measuring the z axis on as many sockets as you have available reach out to Steve ( GN an HU ) see if they can do the same measurements. One corner with a mil of flash on it would be enough to set off your contact and increase temps by 10 degrees. Hmmm an adult owning there mistakes and being open and honest about how they plan to make it right. Your parents brought you up correctly. You should thank them. Also, you have earned some more respect for doing the right thing.
good point about humidity we have some other products than plastic but that also have a tendancy to absorb humidity so we have to place them in an oven then store them under vacuum in a specific amount of time or they go back in the oven (that's before final packaging they will be hermetically sealed later)
Wow, I'm extremely impressed. I've only bought your thermal paste in the past, but if this is the quality of your customer service I might want to get my next waterblock from you guys too. The only other company I've seen with comparable levels of customer service is Noctua. I'm starting to understand why German companies have the reputation they have.
Thank you for watching and commenting on my video on your product! The direct die cooler definitely meets my expectations on my 14900ks. No affiliation or sponsorship of course but no complaints. Seeing a video like this just further following up making sure everyone is happy.... Thermal Grizzly and all its staff, Der8auer, you are such a pillar of honesty in the computer community, please always keep the amazing integrity you have. We customers love the way you do everything
@@Typhon88814900ks I got and used his cooler on, stable and no issues on Intel default and 4096w profile both. Obviously 4096e gets hotter but no crashes under extended load ever and idle is like 35c to 40c in 25ish ambient give or take 5
how much did it improve ? my triple rad in lian li o11 dynamic xl gets my 4090 running 3090mhz 24ghz at like 45°C with 60°C hotspot the highest ive seen and at 440w but my 13900k non oc in the same loop still goes to 95+ with like 130w annoying frankly
@@Typhon888 14900ks, has been running great 2 weeks now nearly, no issues at all and i'm a complete noob, if you follow instructions seems to work great if you're not fighting for the last 1-3 degrees, i just wanted significantly better temps than an AIO would do and I got that and i'm so happy
As soon as you said you went with socket height I wondered if the "issues" were a single vendor/board model or if there was possibly an issue with socket height due to say thicker PCB conflicting with plastic socket height or something. You are immediately addressing the issue, attempting to ID the issue and didn't deflect or blame the customer. You're doing what many companies don't do. Good on you and this is honestly extremely interesting video but probably not one you want to make.
Not many manufacturers would introduce their production process to customers when a problem appears, while giving an explanation of the whole process and the possible cause of the problem. You're a great example of transparency, honesty and professionality. I'm sure most hardware customers will appreciate not only your way of managing problems, but also your hard work, knowledge, values and of course the amazing quality of all your products, which is the consequence of all the mentioned things.
The things you can never measure on the production floor, are how hard someone is going to crank down on mounting screws, what assembly tolerances pcb manufacturers are hitting, and how uniform are the tolerances on mass-produced products you aren't manufacturing. You can measure your own parts until you're blue in the face, but it only helps so much. I will point out that there are few things i personally would change: A) I would NOT be using the CPU socket itself as a hard-stop surface. It's plastic, and can easily be bent, warped, dented, crushed, and other wise deformed in ways you will never be able to predict. Even a hard plastic is still softer than most metals. I personally feel it would be better to produce a back plate for the other side of the Mobo, and use that back plate's screw standoff's as hard stops to prevent users from over-torquing the screws. B) If you're worried about pressing against the board, using a PTFE or some sort of HDPE derivative should help protect the board, while giving you a contact surface that shouldn't mar, or damage traces on the surface of the board. C) when talking to customers about the issue they are having, it's usually not going to be too much trouble asking them to re-seat the device, and have them take pictures of the procedure and specific points of interest to you during the process. This can give invaluable information to you not only about the potential root cause of the issue, but also gives you an overall view of the entire environment the product is in, it's easy to overlook small things that may be affecting the operation of your product when they are in an environment you can't inspect. (I'm not even going to get started on the PC's i've worked on in the past that had entire furballs of cat/dog hair trapped in the PCIe / Ram sockets... ) D) can i come play on your datron? XD
Not every motherboard is going to be the same thickness tho... You could use a standoff from the FRONT of the motherboard to measure the thickness but if the socket depth isn't the same on every motherboard that just adds another issue to deal with. Will be interesting seeing what conclusions eventually are made about what is causing the issue, it is good to see companies getting out ahead of things, admitting there is a problem, then working with the community to find a fix instead of hide from it.
Being to close is not only an issue of "if it damages the MB" but being too close to the traces can change their impedance and enabling crass talk in the traces, basically creating interference.
10/10 across the board, the number of times both on PC's and tooling that I've had people go too hard on the first corner because there's zero resistance / they're not noticing it tip up, ending in a canoe / saddle situation is kind of sad. Getting a matching machined reference surface (that's also in line with the load, not allowing for any x/y torque) is the only fool proof way.
Torque screwdriver isn't so expensive and it should be a standard tool of enthusiast. You put there 5 Nm or some other value and you get consistent pressure results for every user :)
The difference between Thermal Grizzly and almost all other companies in the space is that you are an enthusiast and engineer first, and business man second. You are one of us.
Seems crazy that someone owns up to their issues and does not just try to bury such issues until shit gets real bad. This is why you are probably one of the most trusted people in this scene.
and showing all those old prototypes and stuff, he's risking some trade secret, or close to trade secret information being leaked in order to make the public more aware of the issue.
@@alexdrockhound9497 Yeah, the transparency here is insane. And you can also just tell by looking at him in this video that this is not just "oh, shit, I need to save face", but that he is actually concerned about his product and customers.
@@GrimnirLaguz28 yep, he wants to actually figure out whats happening and is working us through what he's looked at so far, so we have a good starting point to help him.
@@GrimnirLaguz28 The world used to be this way.... It's so depressing that the normal is to lie. I hate companies like ASUS and cablemod for this very reason.
you are a shinning example of exactly how people should behave when there is a problem with one of their products. Other companies should take serious notes on how you conduct yourself and work towards finding a solution that is primarily aimed at helping resolve issues for the customer but also for yourselves so that you can continue to do amazing work in the future. Thank you for your candour - ps. I especially enjoyed the tour of your manufacturing facility and machines. Absolutely fascinating and it shows how seriously you take your production because those machines are incredibly expensive due to the high level of accuracy and everything else.
You will be fine you got ahead of this and working on the finding and fixing the problem GN Steve won't do a three part series on you lol. I have been using your products since my 8700k Delid kit and will continue stay humble and hungry we will stay beside you.
I am not sure if you already do this, but what helps is bringing in someone random that has some building experience, give them the instructions, and have them assemble the product. This way you get outside perspective of what can go wrong.
Definitely agree here. You have experts, professionals, average people, and first timers. Experts can usually tell when something is wrong just by feel, professionals can usually do the same but might miss something, average builders know the process and what it “should be”, but don’t do it often enough to really know what’s going on when something is wrong, and then your first timers most likely won’t notice anything wrong until it’s pointed out.
Wow, absolutely incredible. You German guys do not mess around when it comes to engineering. Can't believe the quality of the equipment you guys are running just to manufacture CPU cooling parts! Such an awesome video with an excellent insight into the manufacturing process!
Thank you for your transparency, this is what builds the trust and gets you the following that you've got. I've never had any problems with Thermal Grizzly products, and I've bought anything and everything I can for my PC from you, only using your thermal paste and liquid metal. Thermal Grizzly is the #1 brand in our space and hope they expand and take some market share from these big guys!
You can clearly see that you are affected by the situation, and your video elevates the standard to a whole new level on how business should be conducted and managed. This is something everyone can learn from. If the day ever comes when you no longer have time for a video like this, it might be because the company has grown too large and the money has become more interesting than your product. Deep respect from me, you are the man!
Sounds like you may need to gather a larger sample of motherboards and check for variances in that plastic socket frame. They *should* all be the same, since the socket is the socket, but maybe the accepted tolerances for that plastic socket frame are more generous/wider than your parts' accepted tolerances which could surely cause some (but definitely not all) parts to not fit quite as intended. You could start by collecting MB info for those customers affected by the issue and analyzing for commonalities tbh you've most likely thought of this, but it's the only thing I could think of that you didn't really mention. You only stated that you've made the assumption that there isn't any variance in the socket frames Best of luck figuring this out, and honestly THANK YOU for being such a good example of how a company should respond to issues! Your reputation is well deserved
We know you stand behind any product or company you are a part of and your transparency and honesty are an example to everyone. Thanks for everything you do to bring great products to market and to fix issues when they (rarely but inevitably) arise. The world is a complex place and nothing is ever perfect! What matters is how we react to challenges and you're setting the standard.
I have full confidence in Thermal Grizzly, I've been using your products for years, and I'm looking forward to y'all figuring out what's going on with the heat spreader, because I'm going to put one in my rig. I wish more companies were as transparent as you are, thank you for making this video, and I look forward to using the heat spreader once you figure out what the issue is, if there is an issue that requires remanufacturing that is. I'm absolutely fine with waiting for it, especially with this kind of customer support. Thanks again brother! 🙂
I am one of the lucky ones who managed to order one of 50 ihs. And I won't return it, even if it doesn't fit. This ihs will be of collector's value because there are a limited number of them released and the new release is likely to be different. Thank you Roman, it is very interesting to be with you on this engineering journey towards silicon perfection.
In my few years actively following the PC hardware space, I've learned that every manufacturer messes something up at some point. What you don't see as often, is the CEO of a company owning that mistake in a public forum, acknowledging up-front there is an issue, and communicating facts about the situation and ways for customers to proactively get support.
Der8bauer, you are an example to the whole industry on how to do things right! Addressing a problem in the most professional way possible, while also explaining the manufacturing process and tolerances. The whole industry needs to learn a lot from you!
BRAVO, BRAVO. See EKWB, it CAN be done. You CAN be more transparent with your customers and in a timely manner. Thank you for being so honest and doing your best to make it right. Ive had so many issues with my ek direct die kit and the way they handle it is just garbage. Good luck i hope you find the isse so i can pick one of these up to replace my trash ek block
Great video! I wish you well as you try to root cause this issue. As an engineer, I can sympathise with you, how painful and difficult it is, when there is a problem in the field, and with so many variables that you can't control, and you're trying to narrow down the number of variables, but also identify which of the remaining variables is the most significant contributor to the apparent issue that you are seeing.
Setting the bar. This is why I never have a problem buying TG products. Commitment to the consumer. Gut gemacht!! Thoughts from a DD user - I had an SMD (south of die) that actually sat 0.17mm above the surface of the die on my 13700k (using iceman die guard). Measured using a digital surface height gauge on reference block. Since I was doing a 360mm AIO DD setup using a flat, full coverage coldplate, I had to cut a slot in the coldplate to accommodate. There are also SMDs along the western edge, but those were not an issue for me. Worth a look!
Every company should take notes on this video. This is how you take ownership of a problem and what you will be doing to fix it. Not just for computer parts but everything. QA/QC all over the world should be like this! Thank you Roman for being a stand up guy and letting everyone know!
I think you should get the motherboard and the CPU from the customer. If the tolerances are ok on your side it's: motherboard or CPU or customer fault. If it's the particular CPU or the motherboard you can make adjustments to your design. If it's customers fault you can make a video how to avoid common mistakes. It's a win win situation.
@@Skobeloff... They could send a loaner board to them in exchange, or just send an identical board and keep the one the customer had a problem on so they can take their time testing it. Not a great solution but a possible one.
@@--_DJ_-- They can just ask the customers what they are using for reference to see if it's an issue with a particular board/brand, if they see a bunch from the same component then it's then just a matter of sourcing the component, whether that be buying or something else.
It seems likely to be related to stackup variations. Thermal expansion could contribute in circumstances where the stack up variation is (probably) at a maximum. Once you get it worked out, I will definitely get the device. I have gotten several items from Thermal Grizzly, everything has been top quality. In seeing the video section where you walk around in your shop, I see why, t looks like a great working environment. Clean, well lit, safe, lots of cool tools of all sorts. Good job.
The part that is outside of their control is the plastic bracket and that looks a likely candidate. They are mostly manufactured by Lotes, but there are other makers out there - I wonder if there is a tiny variation (only going to need a fraction of a mm to have a big impact) in the thickness. Possibly a tiny change in spec by Lotes during different production runs. Another thing that would point to the plastic bracket is the fact that Iceman don't seem to have had a similar problem, and their kit goes to the pcb, thus not using the plastic bracket as a point of contact.
The simple fact you started this video off how you did is more than enough for me to keep my faith in your products. Thank you for always being the man of integrity we have come to trust and look forwards to seeing. Hopefully the problem can be solved easy enough for you all!
Wow. Very clear communication around this issue. Well done. A potential option is to send the pressure sensitive paper out to everyone who has been affected to see if there is commonality in pressure results; if you get variable results back, then it would suggest the motherboard socket spec may not be accurate enough. Exceptionally well maintained tolerances in manufacturing may not mean much if the sockets are way out of spec, or highly variable. The other vendor using the PCB vs socket may not be by accident.
This video gives me more confidence and respect for the product and the company than just hiding and not sharing. Massive respect, and I really hope you can address the issue. It makes me want to actually build a new rig and test this out to help out.
Good choice as steve is taking heads left and right. Thanks for the honesty, I will continue to buy your stuff. Another thing I appreciate is you making things in your country, wish USA would start doing that again.
The transparency, ownership and the way you're dealing with this is literally faultless. I both highly respect this and hope that more in the tech industry adopt this approach. ggwp
A good guess: the tolerance on MBs is greater than you perceive. The boards are not designed for this device to be applied so they have no reason to meet the tolerance range you have....
There are so many variables in the installation of these blocks. From not removing the sealant of the OEM IHS lifting the direct die IHS off the package to not tightening the thing down properly and then some of the motherboard sockets may not be high quality materials or within normal tolerances as most other sockets.
My EK direct die waterblock was really underwhelming on my 13900KS so I sanded it down to bare copper. After sanding, it performed much better. I assume that was because the coldplate was finally flat. On my 7900X3D, the der8auer direct die frame worked well after I cut parts off & smoothed the edges with a Dremel so it could fit on X3D. I'd buy your products again for sure. I appreciate that you take risks other manufacturers won't--i.e., you're not afraid to mass produce delid &/or & direct die components
yes lmao i hope after GN posted the asus videos they shit them selves :D been pretty loyal to asus for a long time but now ive switched to MSI cant deal with the abyssmal customer support anymore
Kind of amazing the kind of respect you can garner from your customers when you are open and honest about a problem you have with a product or service. ASUS and a few other brands should take note. If a smaller brand can do this and you can't, then you're just bad at your job.
The plastic socket being the issue is what came to mind as soon as I heard it was used as a stop. I wonder how tight the tolerance is on a part like that, even if they all come from the same manufacturer. I also wonder if it could induce "user error" if torqued in an uneven manner. I could be wrong, and often am, but the paste looked a little thick in the lower area of the spreader shown to us.
The level of accountability, humility and professionalism shown in your video here basically means that if I ever need any custom pieces that you produce I will be ordering from you. You are the gold standard in Custom PC part engineering.
Planning on dropping 12k on my next pc this year, an as crazy as it seems your open an earnest clip showing an detailing your ncr process an investigation has sold me to go your parts for my next build as a customer your credibility really shows.
This is how you handle business very transparent, and right to trying trying to fix the issue. There are alot of other companies that should take notes !
Companies have to realize that customer-company interactions are a relationship. Like any relationship, it's similar to a financial account. Every poor interaction is like a debit. Every good interaction is like a deposit. If all you ever have are poor interactions, you'll quickly be on empty with nothing to draw on. The way you treat your customers, the focus on your products vs assuming customers have done something wrong, getting right on top of the issue vs burying it, etc. all promote good will. Those are all "deposits". When you do run into an issue, there's a balance to draw on. People don't want perfection. They understand innovation and that it sometimes brings issues. All they want is for the company to work with them and to be fair. Fix the problem. Give them the product they paid for or return their money. It's not much to ask. Good job being prompt, fair and good with customers!
Sorry to hear about the inconsistent results your product is showing. Production walk through was really informative, hope the problem is found & fixed soon.
It's really so simple for a company to admit there's an issue with a certain product and recall/revise said product and offer refunds. But no, multi-million dollar company investors don't care about keeping their customer base and instead shit on the customers every chance they get. Good for you, Roman 👏 Hope you can figure out what the issue is so it can be fixed ASAP
I hope the motherboard manufacturers are taking notes. This is how you handle a problem. You jump on it, you put it out into the open, you let everyone know you are aware and working on it, you let affected customers know they can get refunds, and then you solve the problem. What does this do for a company? Let's them control the narrative by giving the company agency to fix the problem and build good will with customers at the same time. That is, so long as the people at the company are honest about fixing things and making things right. Which, with der8auer, I fully believe is a man of honesty and integrity, thus so is his company. SEE ASUS AND GIGABYTE, THIS IS HOW YOU PROTECT YOUR BRAND, YOUR COMPANY, AND YOUR PROFITS! Treat your customers as valued when a mistake happens on YOUR end.
As others have stated, the way that you've handled this is effectively as perfect as it gets. Open communication with everyone, offering refunds without hesitation, and showing the process by which you're troubleshooting the issue - along with being honest about your limitations. There's no doubt of the quality of the time and effort being put into your products, and that more than justifies the cost. All that said, I'll be taking the time to install the KyroSheet pads for my CPU and GPU this week. :)
I would definitely look at socket variations, as this could definitely cause pressure issues. The other issues could be incompatible TIMs or thermal paste application causing a high spot at the socket. This is why most manufacturers use springs, you could try incorporating belleville washers.
I love the way you support your customers and your honstey , I worked in repair motherboards and graphic cards for a while just to add I understand you not using the motherboard pcb as stop but never rely on pcb as stop because the cpu socket surface distance to the pcb is different on every motherboard and doesnot have a perfect tolerance to be used added to it the damage to the pcb which can be avoided but the height variations connot , that why most coolers have aspring , or abit flixible mechanisms for mounting .
This makes me want to buy your products even more! You really are a legend and its clear to all of us you care about your products and customers. keep on doing what youre doing Roman. 👍
I must give credit where it is due, Whereas most manufacturing companies would largely try to keep things under wraps until they get a demand from the consumer to actually do something, but there are always exceptions to this statement. Roman has shown all his cards and I think he has a strong hand, I can really see no reason why this problem has happened, it would be nice to see the returned items in testing to see if there was any manufacturing issues, my money is on that the consumer must have done something wrong or something not quite right. It is hard to really know unless the customers computer is analyzed for why the issue exists. Roman is a good man making great products that are driven by common sense. Great Video! Good Luck!
"HI! The product you have bought may have had a problem. We have no idea why, but we're trying to figure it out, and here's our development process too to be fully transparent! Oh, also you can get a refund if you want." CHAD
You came out immediately after hearing about it, that’s huge and separates you from the rest. I’m using your AM5 direct die water block and I’ve been happy.
