I Need More Polyphony in My Keyboards!!! 

I totally agree!!! Hardware needs to be brought up to date along with software.

Thank you for this man. I thought I was the only one. Soooooo frustrated with my MODX and I was thinking I was just doing something wrong. What you said makes soooooo much sense. 128 polyphony makes NO sense in 2024.

The new iPad mini is a BEAST with polyphony! I layered 8 sounds and had 0 dropped notes. (Apps: Ravenscroft, korgmodule, digitalism, and AUM.

As they say in church the struggle is real. I think some of this has to deal with the current state of black gospel musicians. Things are laid back in production songs but we have taken layering to a different level these days on the only tech that is meeting the need are computers and tablets. I’ve been struggling with this for a long time but the more I thing about what I want the more I think I need to invest more time into learning how to create it on a computer or finding more apps that replace workstations and synths. I thought zenbeats was really going to be the one stop shop for me but it’s really not a live gigging app. GarageBand on iPad is not and I basic need a Mac for MainStage. Midi controller with standalone box or audio interface and computer is starting to look like the way to go. I’m sure Jamal is doing well but I think if he solves this issue he would have set his mark in gospel music history. 😃 I regret not going into programming.

Finally somebody brings that up, tought it was just me

Totally agree! I just purchased a MODX+ which is supposed to have more 'memory', and I'm running into polyphony drop-out when I start to layer and sustain notes. Funny I don't have that problem with my MOXF8.

Agreed. It's 2023 - why are we even talking about polyphony of less than 1,000 notes? OK, maybe that's a stretch, but I strongly agree that we should have had much more massive jumps in polyphony in the last decade or two than we have seen.

Yes I agree that the major synth companies need to greatly improve their polyphony. Dexibell is killing it with cpu power. Sound engine etc!I sell the major brands at my store as well and I do wish more people would appreciate the great sound and features Dexibell give us! 2023 hopefully will see the majors step up with Kronos , Montage, Fantom replacements! I would love to see what they release ne t. Kurzweil 2700 is cool but most people don’t seem to be interested in what Kurzweil is up too.

I never really had issues with polyphony with the Montage but definitely having them with the Modx8+

Hi my friend, I totally agree with you. I was about to tell you that Decibel, ancient employees of Roland, offers unlimited polyphonie but you already know this amazing company. So, obviously it is not a technical issue but more a profit choice ! Have a nice day, Mounir

Derrick I am running into the same dang problems bud. Have Modx and Fantom O. It actually seems worse on the Fantom O for some reason. Same thing, piano and nice pad and instant problems. Absolutely ridiculous. So bad I thought about trying to get my money back. Says 256 and thought I would be free of problems but bam! And to be honest as far as a live performer I have not been totally happy with the 0. I have a kronos as well that I use live. From all 3 boards the MODX just seems like my powerhouse believe it or not. The scene function is incredibly powerful in live situations. The O has it as well but its located on the pads and you have to remove your right hand or reach way over with your left, just not as good. I have downloaded some pianos for the MODX that are single sounds and for live application actually sound better than the 4 layered ones. Has helped me a lot with the polyphony issues. But I am totally with you bud. I mean they are charging over 4k bucks for these top models and we are still having this stupid crap going on. Insane.

Very good rant my friend. Especially for 2022! It just seems like that the major keyboard manufacturers are behind the ball for no reason. I think they need to change their mindset and design. I often think what would happen if a workstation with the capability of a M1 with 32gig + ram and large TB storage were to exist, would be a game changer. I loved the concept of the Openlabs Neko XXL workstation. Very powerful with no polyphonic issues. Heavy as Hell lol. The concept with today's tech, in my opinion is absolutely achievable.

Right man, sometimes have same issues! Just upgraded from MODX to MODX+, but still sometimes not enough. And as a former owner of Kronos there were still in some cases the same polyphony issues when you layer more sounds. This is still annoying when it happens and I am always tired of finding compromises and solutions how to deal with it.

Let us know if any of the brands can answer your questions as to why they can't increase the polyphony.

My guess is that these companies are more concerned with what you said, profit margins than actual innovation. The montage for example has something like 2 gb flash memory and they proudly state this - 2 gb? Not to sound ungrateful but this is their flagship synth, costs a pretty penny and they can't give us more than that? Boggles the mind

The only keyboards I’ve played with no problems is a nord stage 3 and a es8🤷🏾‍♂️

Interestingly enough, the keyboard with the most polyphony I own is the Roland Jupiter 80 which came out in 2011!!! Eleven years ago. Crazy!!!

yep frustrating. Seems that these companies create their own electronics in house without using other parties product/patented electronic design in theirs instruments. This might be some of the issues and trying to stay exclusively unique to brand name without forfeiting anything. Maybe this is why Roland as adopted a more affordable approach to prevent the company to go bankrupt. If 256 poly is at this price? I can imagine it maybe too expensive to have a limitless approach in house. Figure is just cheaper to have work around. Average listeners may not able to tell the difference and so its very limited market. I hope this not the case but give the pros what they want and maybe a new dept of discovery in sound design can be open up beyond what we are used to.

You raise great points. Clearly, you’re a power user with considerable polyphony needs. It’s worth it to shine light on some other companies that either give us more or manage polyphony in a more musical way. Dexibell, Kurzweil, and Kawai spring to mind. Barring that, I guess you’d have to look at augmenting your $4k workstation you just bought with either rack modules or software. Some higher end Korg products have an Even/Odd note parameter in their Global menu which is helpful if you have two of the same instrument and wish to allocate polyphony across them.

Preach! The thing is not everyone wants to move over to the software side. So i don't understand how the companies haven't caught on yet? That's why i can't use Yamaha as my mains typically because of the way their voices cut out.

First, welcome back my good friend. Why less polyphony in keyboards? Simple answer. 1) Outdated hardware 2) No real competition to force breakthroughs/innovations (opposite to what Intel and AMD are doing right now, forcing each other to innovate and compete) 3) No dedicated engineering teams for high end synths (but rather, all are employed to do multiple products at once) 4) Still relying on hardware chips as a tone generation method (as well for FX) instead of switching to software tone generation (Korg have done it with Kronos, Nautilus, the wavestate, opsix and modwave family, the PA series of arrangers and what Dexibell are doing with all their products). 5) Limiting customers by not enabling them to expand their synth by adding M.2 NVME SSDs, or more RAM. All of these factor in huge losses of power, against general computing hardware. The only brand I can really defend is Dexibell (slight empathy towards Kurzweil). But most of them still, are really still playing the 'take me for a fool card' with their customers. I am hoping someone really starts to push these companies out of their comfort zone until they aren't able to even compete anymore. Money doesn't' come cheap, especially for the gigging musician (unless you're high profile of course). So mid-range is mostly, the places where money is spent, even then, products are still not up to the mark as they are expected. I still use hardware, because they are easy to setup, easy to use, great workflow and modern ones have great DAW integration as well. But I'm getting tired of hardware manufacturers not making an innovation in this space. Have a great day Darrick.

yes exactly so they can keep you coming from the new thing that dexibell is really nice

I was reading an article on Yamaha Montage and people wanting more . The author said the engineer he talked to at Yamaha said hardware is not the problem, the software is what takes a long time to design, develop, and test. The software is the slow part and expensive part of developing new things for their keyboards. One of Yamaha's approaches to issues like this over the years is just buy a company that already does what they want so they can get their hands on the tech they need/want. Hey Dexibell you want to retire let Yamaha buy you out.

Hello, fully agree with you. i have a yamaha moxf8, when i layer a piano, strings and pad sound..and i use a sustain pedal, you quickly hear that some notes disappear. Marcel (from The Netherlands)

Amen. It is ridiculous they don’t have minimum of 256. Plus Yamaha needs to make the seamless sound switching for all sounds and make it like the Roland. Very frustrating.

You nailed the main reason why I sold my Korg Kronos. So many opportunities to run in too narrow space. Useless.

Preach my brother ✊🏾

Omg is like you read my mind. Polifony shouldn't be an issue at all in 2022. It's intentionally done for sure.

Hell yea, specially when some of these workstations are over $4k

Totally agree D. It would be nice to have AT LEAST 512. But there is no excuse because of dexibell ad v piano. It is already here so why not implement same tech to other engines??? 💯 with you on this

The move is to go software based completely…I’m making the shift right now it’s just better sonically practically and expand ability I can literally do 4 keyboard rig with my phone if I wanted to 🤷🏿‍♂️ijs

Brother I agree would you fully . I have a Modx6+ and I play gospel so you know we love our thick patches and the patches sounds beautiful altogether but playing live and cluster/fat chords that we tend to use in gospel it really drops notes and makes a almost $2,000 keyboard sounds like a cheap board . SMH it does sucks for the amount of money we put into these boards for it to do that .

I usually don’t get into problems but I did the other day😢… only when I start adding more tracks and using automation

Wanna know the answer to the question? Drum Roll please: Because with those Roland and Yamaha Keyboards of today you basically get the level of technology that was available in 2008. They almost haven't done anything major to rework their software. A few minor tweaks here and there but at core a Fantom is still a Fantom G and a Montage is still a Motif XF/XS. With the Kronos, Korg have incorporated all the technology that they could in 2011, but since then nothing happened (However the Sequencer was already dated when it came out on the Triton, keep in mind there was Software available which had a piano roll in the 90s!). The Nautilus is a bad joke. Those companies got very greedy when they lost a huge chunk of the market, namely producers. Workstation were a must have for music producers up until the mid/late 2000s, but now Workstations only mainly sell to working musicians, which there are getting less and less of. Sad but True.

I guess the new MODX + update w increased polyphony wasn’t such a small deal…

Said the same thing for years. Also, why isn't every synthesizer multitimbral? It really irks me that they cripple these units.

Facts!!!

Dr. Darrick Keels Music Scientist🎶 I think you should get with some music loving software developers to create what music composers & performers need. 🎼There's a lot of talented coders out there. You shared your sound epiphany, why not redesign polyphony Maestro Keels, perhaps the industry will Kneel! 🎹🤔

Hello I appreciate this video. First of all I’ve looked at a lot of your other videos and see that you have a lot of gear. So I have respect your opinion. These manufactures have been doing the bare minimum and milking the musicians to make a profit in my opinion. In 2022 with the availability of sad and memory including faster cpu we should be doing better than this especially for flagship models. I believe that they are dragging their feet because there is no competition between manufacturers in these crucial areas. If they keep the memory, drive space, and processor power at the bare minimum they can do minimum updates and sell it as an upgrade. I got the Roland fantom thinking that it would be an advance in technology and to some extent it is but lacks some simple things that even its predecessor had. I also purchased a SL MK3 61 which again is admittedly an upgrade but also lacks simple abilities its much cheaper predecessor had. They claim it can control other hardware and be the center piece not needing a computer but yet it lacks the ability to send bank change and program change commands (which was available in the middle 2) I have decided to test out software where I can get as much memory as I can afford and processing power that’s more updated not to mention hard drive space. I currently moved to gig performer after trying many others. It is stable and written by musicians for musicians. They have a weekly RU-vid program called back stage with gig performer and also a very active forum. The program is enormous in its ability to be programmed to do what ever you can think of and does it in ways that current hard ware can only dream of. It does have its cons as you have said before just like everything else but the freedom it gives is worth it. After chasing down many different hard ware for the past number of years including the fantom and not being satisfied with the manufacture selected limitiations I decided to test out software and plunge in fully to see if I can depend on it similar to hardware. I have only so far tested it in studio but so far works as well as hardware with much more configuration capabilities. I will be testing it live twice this week and I dont believe I will retrurn back to hard ware except as a backup in case my computer fails. The industry simply need someone to come and change the game the way Korg did with the Kronos (bearing in mind that they also dropped the ball with only small increases for over 11 years then finally came out with the nautilus intentionally leaving out sliders and knobs as if keyboardists has no need for them. All in all I appreciate your video as it reminds me that I am not the only one who looks at it in this manner.

Exactlyyy!!! Thats so sad for that money.

I was just about to buy the Fantom 06, and then I dug even deeper, and there are problems with the polyphony, the pitch wheel is really slow when doing fast vibratos, and it doesn't export wav files or something to that effect, like the FA-06 does, and they didn't put a D beam on it either which I really wanted for expression with my hands, so I'm thinking why in the hell are these simple things for 1,600 dollars not being attained to and applied from these company's? I think they do this on purpose, so that you buy other things. It's ridiculous and I'm kind of pissed off right now. I still might get the Fantom 06, but these small little things should not be. It doesn't make sense at all...SBN RESONATE

I completely agreed

Sounds like the keyboard manufacturers haven’t been developing new hardware for the last 20 years, just regurgitating and repackaging old technology. I think it’s been that way since the bottom fell out of the keyboard market with the emergence of software synths.

Darrck, I heard you mention the Dexibell stage piano and unlimited polyphony. How does it stack up next to a Nord Stage or the Yamaha YC in terms of sound quality and capability?

Hey there! I don’t think the hardware architecture isn’t linear to get beyond 256. What the processor and bus require is available but more complex and requires some new design architecture. Dexibell already created that architecture for themselves I speculate but Roland and Yamaha haven’t yet. They are waiting for users to demand more. Most of us aren’t really stressing the hardware that much. Thus, the power users like yourself suffer. The investment in hardware is being affected by DAWs. If DAWs didn’t exist, we probably have better hardware. I think companies have reservations putting in a next generation, powerhouse if people are moving into DAWs for high bandwidth use.

Alright brotha, question for you. I know you are enjoying your key 61. How do you feel about it as your master controller and sequencer? I am coming from a 2500, and I have multiple boards. I am debating between a Key 61 and One/Live . In theory, I want a Key 61, but with multiple other boards, the One is more space efficient. I also thought about a Fantom 06 since I have Live, but I already have a Fantom rack from back in the day. I feel like having my sequencer, keys, knobs, all on one board vs midi'g another board or controller to a One/Live may be a better workflow. Also, how is it working out with sequencing other outboard gear?

I've been saying this for YEARS. My guess is as yours...they're saving money and since the competition out there is not very big they can afford to get away with it. It's pretty clever too because they can sell us an upgraded synth later on for the same price, and keep drop-feeding us a lil more ram, a lil more speed for every generation. Technically they could just purchase the latest multi-core processor with up to 16 cores, 4 GHz and you could have 1024 polypony and all the VST's you could ever dream of, but that would kill their entire lineup and essentially end sales of all units.

I feel so stupid after a period with Roland Fantom , i have now sold it , very bad polyphony handling … I stick to Nord and NI Maschine / Logic Pro and MainStage , i have bought Roland Zenology Pro that shows up in Maschine and can be controlled there and sounds fabulous over apogee symphony desktop 😊

Unfortunately, not a lot of innovation going on. The Big 3 have gotten comfortable. Roland Jv-Xv-Fantom-integra-Fantom again😆. Korg Trinity-Triton-M3, Oasis births Kronos. Yamaha...don't worry, Vintage 74 is in like every board for the last 20 years...Motif Classiv-Es-XS-XF-Montage. AWM is very old. 20+ years of 16 tracks and 64-128 polyphony. I will say that Behringer coming out with their synths that copy originals for fractions of the price is forcing the manufacturers to stop resting...and giving the consumer choices and better prices.

What about Kurzweil PC4. It has 256.

I have a Roland Fantom 88 ($4k) I want the akai 61 don't u think the Fantom can do everything the akai can do? The only drawback is the Phantom is huge it's hard to carry around and gig with. My main keyboard is a Yamaha moxf8. My main question to is I don't know if you're familiar with Flash memory, But on the Yamaha Moxf8 It seems that the only way you can utilize the storage on the Flash memory is if you delete all of your current sounds. So I feel like it was a waste of money because I have so many sounds/ presets I have locked in And to think I have to essentially factory reset everything to use the Flash memory is so crazy and outdated. Kind of makes me upset. Let me know if you are familiar with this, thank you.

It's stupid. And they should also have MULTIPLE PCIE5 SSD slots for 4TB SSDs

Thoughts on Prophet X Synthesizer? RufusDuSol is using it and it only has 8 polyphony stereo , 16 Mono. 150GB of factory installed samples. 50GB of storage to add your own samples. Is it better than Yamaha Montage? I think it’s $4,000

Totally agree but the bean counters go, if we short change them on polyphony they’ll need multiple units instead of 1. Like the Roland MC-101 4 tracks and 128 voice polyphony……. Should be 256 as the partials and effects etc devour polyphony like candy. The 707 is worse , here’s 8 tracks but still only 128 note polyphony. WHAT??? The 707 should have Double the polyphony of the 101 since double the tracks but NOPE. It’s all to get us to spend more $$$ The 707 should have 512 note polyphony. So should the Fantom’s so should my Jupiter Xm etc

They are using old generation CPUs. They need to move to ARM based CPUs like the new iPads.

I mean, the Fantom Vpiano is unlimited polyphony, isn’t it? Unfortunately it’s also not the best sounding piano engine.

Hi Darrick Since you're on a polyphony-related rant, please comment on polyphony on the Akai MPC Key 61. The british Akai rep during an earlier youtube video (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-l7JdVD2Gdyw.html) stated that this unit has 192 voice polyphony, yet another video (DSoundman I believe reviewing the Stage piano plugin) shows a screen shot indicating a maximum of 47 notes for the piano in that plugin settings. Is this the absolute max for the key 61 if this plugin is invoked, or just for that plugin, and the user can still add other plugins to tracks without voices being dropped? Akai in their spec sheet doesn't explicitly comment on polyphony (nor would someone I contacted by email at Akai). Anyway please let us viewers know what your findings are on polyphony for this unit, and keep up the excellent reviews!

This!!

Because they are greedy and want to get people pay more for “better” features although this should be a basic thing

Hello Darrick How is the Akai mpc 61 working out??

I got one thing to say, if we stop buying these overpriced keyboards with low workflow, then I believe they'll do better. Remember, they need our money as much as we need their product, and if its not good for us to be spending so much and barely getting our money's worth.

Get a k2700, these companies are wack.